Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Sykper.6583]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > Let me add one thing about programming times and "just tweaking numbers". Everybody that had at least 1 semester of informatics at university knows that it isn't just converting numbers. How you describe it it is definitely not how software development is going to work.

> > >

> > > Sorry, I didn't study informatics in school, I just write game code for a living.

> >

> > Forgive us if we don't believe you, or any of the OP's statements so far as they are not backed by any solid evidence to the contrary. Naturally I'm not actually asking for you to divulge personal information on the public domain, that's your own decision as well. What I will say is that all devs statements so far, old and new, point to the contrary of how raids are going according to them when compared to this supposed 'reality' the OP has delivered.

>

> I never claimed to be any *good* at it.

 

?? So why the insistence on a subject you admit you aren't acquainted with yet being 'simple'?

 

Let's not forget the history of the on-going gag about how 'terrible' the code going into the GW2 engine is, it's uncanny how what appears to be a patch dedicated to say, a Quality of Life change, could cause whole raid wings to be shut down until a hotfix is put into play.

 

**I can only horrifically consider the consequences of trying to implement a separate 'easy-mode' raid instance and not completely blow up the Arenanet workload, having to manage and troubleshoot two separate raid instances at the same time.**

 

We STILL have Wing 3 bugged!

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Sykper.6583" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > Let me add one thing about programming times and "just tweaking numbers". Everybody that had at least 1 semester of informatics at university knows that it isn't just converting numbers. How you describe it it is definitely not how software development is going to work.

> > > >

> > > > Sorry, I didn't study informatics in school, I just write game code for a living.

> > >

> > > Forgive us if we don't believe you, or any of the OP's statements so far as they are not backed by any solid evidence to the contrary. Naturally I'm not actually asking for you to divulge personal information on the public domain, that's your own decision as well. What I will say is that all devs statements so far, old and new, point to the contrary of how raids are going according to them when compared to this supposed 'reality' the OP has delivered.

> >

> > I never claimed to be any *good* at it.

>

> ?? So why the insistence on a subject you admit you aren't acquainted with yet being 'simple'?

>

> Let's not forget the history of the on-going gag about how 'terrible' the code going into the GW2 engine is, it's uncanny how what appears to be a patch dedicated to say, a Quality of Life change, could cause whole raid wings to be shut down until a hotfix is put into play.

>

> **I can only horrifically consider the consequences of trying to implement a separate 'easy-mode' raid instance and not completely blow up the Arenanet workload, having to manage and troubleshoot two separate raid instances at the same time.**

>

> We STILL have Wing 3 bugged!

 

I'm less pessimistic. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

[Sykper.6583]

It's more realism however and it has correlations for how the Raid team currently operates. Bug fixes for previous raid wings come one-two at a time on each major patch. I imagine even you can make a concession that a separate easy mode instance would have more than just a few number changes applied, major mechanics like Sabetha's flame wall would have to not instantly kill as an example would have to be coded in.

 

Every major content addition to this game, is just another potential mess of problems down the road. I have to be realistic and assume each easy mode instance of the raid is the same potential problem-child as the current content equivalent. There's no escaping this, not anywhere in this game.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Sykper.6583" said:

>It's more realism however and it has correlations for how the Raid team currently operates. Bug fixes for previous raid wings come one-two at a time on each major patch. I imagine even you can make a concession that a separate easy mode instance would have more than just a few number changes applied, major mechanics like Sabetha's flame wall would have to not instantly kill as an example would have to be coded in.

 

I'm hopeful that they have good development tools. Changing that effect *should* be as simple as opening up the data entry that defines Sabetha, opening up her Flame Wall attack, seeing the entry that reads "instakill players" and replace that with an already existing tag (one of the most basic ones) that reads "deal [large amount of damage] to players" instead. Obviously I'm paraphrasing because I have no idea what their specific lingo would be, but I assume that they have systems that operate basically along these lines. It shouldn't involve creating any new effects out of wholecloth, or relatively few where necessary.

 

And again, if the easy mode version is released buggy, it's not as big a deal as the harder mode, since nobody would care as much. Still better than nothing.

[Sephylon.4938]

 

> @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > I can not keep up with the rate you guys are posting. Do you mind if I steer the conversation back as to how an easy mode vg should look feel and play like?

>

> This would definitely be a more productive use of this thread - the "should they or shouldn't they" argument has been covered extensively (and we can clearly see how that currently stacks up among people visiting the raid subforum in the actual poll #s at the top of this thread).

agreed.

 

> Imo, Vale Guardian would be an easy one to do - simply cut the boss's health by 1/2 and conclude the fight at the end of the first kite phase (and remove the enrage). This would give guilds looking to train/practice the ability to see pretty much every mechanic in the fight while giving those wanting an easier mode a way to bring tougher (and, thus, lower dps) toons to experience the fight and move on to the next encounter.

>

> This kind of approach probably wouldn't work for every raid boss, but I think it would for VG.

 

Removing the phases past the 1st split phase might be too much imo, the saying goes the real boss fight of vg only starts after the split. Though, an interesting thought occurs to me: what if there were checkpoints added to the boss fight. Now hear me out, ignoring how much work would be needed to do this, what if the hp of the boss would be reduced to be only 33%? Killing it would then lead to the split phase. Upon successfully passing the split phase there would be a checkpoint, and a 2nd vg would then spawn , also with 33% of it's current hp?

 

This suggestion is made as a hypothetical where we have infinite resources, and time. What I would generally like to see in an easy mode is a way that preserves the integrity of the raid, not making it a 1 spam fest, while simultaneously making it easier to do, especially with the other suggestions mentioned here. For this reason I lean towards suggesting making mechanics easier, but not to the point that they can be ignored (any more than they already can). This method would justify an easier alternative path to leg armor imo, as it is still more difficult than open world bosses, requiring coordination with other people. As for rewards, especially magnetite shards, I would like to talk about it in a later date once everything is finalized, but I do like ohoni's suggestion of 1/4th of an li per reward, which you can then click once you have 4 of to make 1 li.

 

Thoughts?

[Blaeys.3102]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

>

> > @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > I can not keep up with the rate you guys are posting. Do you mind if I steer the conversation back as to how an easy mode vg should look feel and play like?

> >

> > This would definitely be a more productive use of this thread - the "should they or shouldn't they" argument has been covered extensively (and we can clearly see how that currently stacks up among people visiting the raid subforum in the actual poll #s at the top of this thread).

> agreed.

>

> > Imo, Vale Guardian would be an easy one to do - simply cut the boss's health by 1/2 and conclude the fight at the end of the first kite phase (and remove the enrage). This would give guilds looking to train/practice the ability to see pretty much every mechanic in the fight while giving those wanting an easier mode a way to bring tougher (and, thus, lower dps) toons to experience the fight and move on to the next encounter.

> >

> > This kind of approach probably wouldn't work for every raid boss, but I think it would for VG.

>

> Removing the phases past the 1st split phase might be too much imo, the saying goes the real boss fight of vg only starts after the split. Though, an interesting thought occurs to me: what if there were checkpoints added to the boss fight. Now hear me out, ignoring how much work would be needed to do this, what if the hp of the boss would be reduced to be only 33%? Killing it would then lead to the split phase. Upon successfully passing the split phase there would be a checkpoint, and a 2nd vg would then spawn , also with 33% of it's current hp?

>

> This suggestion is made as a hypothetical where we have infinite resources, and time. What I would generally like to see in an easy mode is a way that preserves the integrity of the raid, not making it a 1 spam fest, while simultaneously making it easier to do, especially with the other suggestions mentioned here. For this reason I lean towards suggesting making mechanics easier, but not to the point that they can be ignored (any more than they already can). This method would justify an easier alternative path to leg armor imo, as it is still more difficult than open world bosses, requiring coordination with other people. As for rewards, especially magnetite shards, I would like to talk about it in a later date once everything is finalized, but I do like ohoni's suggestion of 1/4th of an li per reward, which you can then click once you have 4 of to make 1 li.

>

> Thoughts?

 

I think this is definitely the kind of thinking they could employ to develop the lesser difficulty modes that many of us believe raids need. As you note, it would come down - as all things must - to effort expended balanced against developmental resources.

 

But again, I think your thinking would likely be a good jumping off point for the developers in the corner with the calculators :).

 

[Sykper.6583]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I'm hopeful that they have good development tools. Changing that effect *should* be as simple as opening up the data entry that defines Sabetha, opening up her Flame Wall attack, seeing the entry that reads "instakill players" and replace that with an already existing tag (one of the most basic ones) that reads "deal [large amount of damage] to players" instead. Obviously I'm paraphrasing because I have no idea what their specific lingo would be, but I assume that they have systems that operate basically along these lines. It shouldn't involve creating any new effects out of wholecloth, or relatively few where necessary.

>

> And again, if the easy mode version is released buggy, it's not as big a deal as the harder mode, since nobody would care as much. Still better than nothing.

 

Remember, they still can't go back to previous Living Story episodes and implement checkpoints like they have done recently. It's a common occurrence for Arenanet to build something new, and **very rarely** go back and fix the old unless it is completely unusable. The game has a lot of polish going forward, but when it comes to attempting to bring old systems into the new they pretty much half-ass it. Case in point, the Breakbar change from Stability Stacks. Most old Dungeon Bosses have an unbreakable bar, whereas in the old system they had a counter that some dungeon parties would actually abuse to time a CC to stop a mechanic. Rather than code breakbar openings in say, Subject Alpha, they just opted for the simpler code there.

 

And are you of the belief that the same group of people who would like an easier mode, would not care about the bugs that are likely going to be there on release? That you would be OK if said bugs would exist for a long time?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

>

> > @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > I can not keep up with the rate you guys are posting. Do you mind if I steer the conversation back as to how an easy mode vg should look feel and play like?

> >

> > This would definitely be a more productive use of this thread - the "should they or shouldn't they" argument has been covered extensively (and we can clearly see how that currently stacks up among people visiting the raid subforum in the actual poll #s at the top of this thread).

> agreed.

>

> > Imo, Vale Guardian would be an easy one to do - simply cut the boss's health by 1/2 and conclude the fight at the end of the first kite phase (and remove the enrage). This would give guilds looking to train/practice the ability to see pretty much every mechanic in the fight while giving those wanting an easier mode a way to bring tougher (and, thus, lower dps) toons to experience the fight and move on to the next encounter.

> >

> > This kind of approach probably wouldn't work for every raid boss, but I think it would for VG.

>

> Removing the phases past the 1st split phase might be too much imo, the saying goes the real boss fight of vg only starts after the split. Though, an interesting thought occurs to me: what if there were checkpoints added to the boss fight. Now hear me out, ignoring how much work would be needed to do this, what if the hp of the boss would be reduced to be only 33%? Killing it would then lead to the split phase. Upon successfully passing the split phase there would be a checkpoint, and a 2nd vg would then spawn , also with 33% of it's current hp?

>

> This suggestion is made as a hypothetical where we have infinite resources, and time. What I would generally like to see in an easy mode is a way that preserves the integrity of the raid, not making it a 1 spam fest, while simultaneously making it easier to do, especially with the other suggestions mentioned here. For this reason I lean towards suggesting making mechanics easier, but not to the point that they can be ignored (any more than they already can). This method would justify an easier alternative path to leg armor imo, as it is still more difficult than open world bosses, requiring coordination with other people. As for rewards, especially magnetite shards, I would like to talk about it in a later date once everything is finalized, but I do like ohoni's suggestion of 1/4th of an li per reward, which you can then click once you have 4 of to make 1 li.

>

> Thoughts?

 

It might be plausible, and given bosses that have fixed patterns based on HP levels, it probably wouldn't be *that* hard to do. Basically what you could do is make three different versions of the fight, one that is the actual hard mode, one that is the hard mode, but starts with the enemy at 60% HP, one that is the hard mode but the enemy starts at 30% HP. If they get to 25% HP and then die, then rather than respawning enemy A, it spawns enemy C instead. Now one issue is how long do you retain that "save," because if you could do something like one party member quitting the group and then inviting nine fresh people to "his" copy of the raid where the enemy is already at 30%, then people would obviously be doing that, while at the same time you'd want to avoid situations where people were counting on being able to continue from 30% and some safety check in the system reset the encounter to full. That could get messy.

 

Also, for plenty of these fights, even having checkpoints like this would not be solution enough, it would help, it would reduce the frustration greatly, but if players weren't ready for the endgame fight, then slamming their faces against the wall repeatedly still wouldn't get them anywhere.

 

I like the idea of more checkpoints in general, but I don't think it's a complete solution.

 

>Remember, they still can't go back to previous Living Story episodes and implement checkpoints like they have done recently.

 

Well, maybe they could, it would just take a lot of extra work that they deem not worth doing (and I'd likely agree if I knew exactly what it entailed). Frankly, if they *don't* have content creation tools like I described? Then their very best course of action, right now, would be to take the developers necessary to build such a toolset, stop everything else they might be doing, and get them to work on it, because having something like that available would make new content creation ten times faster and available to ten times as many developers as any sort of "directly coding every little detail" system that they would otherwise be using. I mean, this is pretty basic "two-decades-ago" tech we're talking about.

 

>Case in point, the Breakbar change from Stability Stacks. Most old Dungeon Bosses have an unbreakable bar, whereas in the old system they had a counter that some dungeon parties would actually abuse to time a CC to stop a mechanic. Rather than code breakbar openings in say, Subject Alpha, they just opted for the simpler code there.

 

Yeah, but again, that was a fairly substantial change to how the enemies worked on a conceptual level.

 

>And are you of the belief that the same group of people who would like an easier mode, would not care about the bugs that are likely going to be there on release? That you would be OK if said bugs would exist for a long time?

 

Not for a *long* time, obviously, they would need to work to turn the bugs around within a week, or a month or so. There is no harm in making mistakes, so long as you work to fix them. My point was just that if you had too significant a bug in a "true" raid, that it would "ruin" it for the target audience, players would be getting speedclears on a boss that is meant to be very tricky to beat, things like that. It's higher stakes. If they mess up the first pass at the easy mode, in either direction, it's less of a big deal, players would go "oh well, try again," and so long as they were quick and competent on the resolution it would work out fine.

[Talindra.4958]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > >Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

> >

> > You concede by default it's ok.

> >

> > >I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

> >

> > I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to *systems,* like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

> >

> > >Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

> >

> > And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

> >

>

> That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

>

>

 

If they continue to release wing by wing until w10.. I will not make it to w8 loool

[Tyson.5160]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > >Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

> > >

> > > You concede by default it's ok.

> > >

> > > >I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

> > >

> > > I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to *systems,* like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

> > >

> > > >Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

> > >

> > > And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

> > >

> >

> > That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

> >

> >

>

> Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

>

> Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

 

So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

 

People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > >Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

> > > >

> > > > You concede by default it's ok.

> > > >

> > > > >I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

> > > >

> > > > I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to *systems,* like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

> > > >

> > > > >Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

> > > >

> > > > And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

> > > >

> > >

> > > That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

> >

> > Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

>

> So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

>

> People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

 

Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

 

 

Gw2 doesnt have gear treadmill and old content never gets irrelevant as a byproduct of that ppl run years old content to this day because the content anet puts out isnt fast enough to balance the lack of farmimg.

 

So in a few years that we will be up to wing 8 we will already be farming w6-7 for months maybe a year/ year and a half and w1-5 for years.

 

Couple that with the downtime of going back and making easy modes to old wings (content which is practically old for the raiding community at that point) and u will leave the raider with no new content for prob 1+ years.

 

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > >Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

> > > > >

> > > > > You concede by default it's ok.

> > > > >

> > > > > >I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to *systems,* like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

> > > > >

> > > > > >Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

> > > > >

> > > > > And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

> > >

> > > Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

> >

> > So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

> >

> > People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

>

> Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

>

>

> Gw2 doesnt have gear treadmill and old content never gets irrelevant as a byproduct of that ppl run years old content to this day because the content anet puts out isnt fast enough to balance the lack of farmimg.

>

> So in a few years that we will be up to wing 8 we will already be farming w6-7 for months maybe a year/ year and a half and w1-5 for years.

>

> Couple that with the downtime of going back and making easy modes to old wings (content which is practically old for the raiding community at that point) and u will leave the raider with no new content for prob 1+ years.

>

 

Possibly by wing 8 there won’t even be a large raid community and it would look kinda like how Anet dealt with dungeons. Possibly by that time a few raiders will clear the wing, but they won’t come back for more and much like everything else the dedication runs out.

 

I’ve kinda gotten to the point of not even really caring anymore about the raids, even though I was quite passionate about the topic on release. That is really sad to me...

 

I kinda feel like that what’s eventually going to happen to this community.

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > >Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You concede by default it's ok.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to *systems,* like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

> > > >

> > > > Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

> > >

> > > So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

> > >

> > > People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8.

> >

> > Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post.

> >

> >

> > Gw2 doesnt have gear treadmill and old content never gets irrelevant as a byproduct of that ppl run years old content to this day because the content anet puts out isnt fast enough to balance the lack of farmimg.

> >

> > So in a few years that we will be up to wing 8 we will already be farming w6-7 for months maybe a year/ year and a half and w1-5 for years.

> >

> > Couple that with the downtime of going back and making easy modes to old wings (content which is practically old for the raiding community at that point) and u will leave the raider with no new content for prob 1+ years.

> >

>

> Possibly by wing 8 there won’t even be a large raid community and it would look kinda like how Anet dealt with dungeons. Possibly by that time a few raiders will clear the wing, but they won’t come back for more and much like everything else the dedication runs out.

>

> I’ve kinda gotten to the point of not even really caring anymore about the raids, even though I was quite passionate about the topic on release. That is really sad to me...

>

> I kinda feel like that what’s eventually going to happen to this community.

>

>

 

That doesnt have to do with the existance of an easy mode or not. If something is gonna kill the raiding scene its 10+ months w8 for a wing. Its simply not worth w8ing and making easy modes on top of that will only make it worse.

[Eramonster.2718]

Lets not forget there will be new players joining raids not solely depending on current numbers (as long as the number is growing, it's healthy). Players old and new will respond to new raids. New content, mechanics (hopefully), and new skins/loots table will attract its crowd. It is true players won't be able to clear everything after x raid wings. But there are also other things factored together (eg. mindset to clear all within a limited time frame; a day or x hours, the rush for Li? :sweat_smile:)

 

Bosses are already dying in minutes. Further reducing it will effect the combat, abilities cast/channel time etc. Worse case scenario, creating a solo play enviroment in a MMO.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Thats doesnt have to do with the existamce of easy modes or not. If something is gonna kill the raiding scenes its 10+ months w8 for a wing. Ots simply not worth w8 and makimg easy modes on top of that will only make it worse.

 

Can we agree that neither of us is supportive of any effort that would slow down the development of new raids by more than a few months total? I just don't believe it's an either/or situation, I believe that either this shouldn't take all that long to implement, or that they can allocate external resources to the project, rather than significantly slowing new raid development.

 

> @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> Bosses are already dying in minutes. Further reducing it will effect the combat, abilities cast/channel time etc. Worse case scenario, creating a solo play enviroment in a MMO.

 

I don't believe that soloing even the easy mode raids will be possible (or at least not an efficient use of time for those that can manage it), but this is already a very solo-friendly MMO, so that would hardly be the worst thing to happen.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > >Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything.

> > > >

> > > > You concede by default it's ok.

> > > >

> > > > >I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change.

> > > >

> > > > I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to *systems,* like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike."

> > > >

> > > > >Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing.

> > > >

> > > > And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post.

> > > >

> > >

> > > That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene.

> >

> > Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it.

>

> So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it.

 

It is physically not possible to avoid interfering. It's the same game. Any amount of work done in one part of it is amount of work not done in another. You're arguing on the basis of unrealistically underplaying said amount, which makes your own point moot. It doesn't matter if someone would agree under highly unrealistic conditions, for obvious reasons.

[Eramonster.2718]

Already put all my thoughts on this topic by now. All thats left is wait and see how things get played out. Cause and effect.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Thats doesnt have to do with the existamce of easy modes or not. If something is gonna kill the raiding scenes its 10+ months w8 for a wing. Ots simply not worth w8 and makimg easy modes on top of that will only make it worse.

>

> Can we agree that neither of us is supportive of any effort that would slow down the development of new raids by more than a few months total? I just don't believe it's an either/or situation, I believe that either this shouldn't take all that long to implement, or that they can allocate external resources to the project, rather than significantly slowing new raid development.

>

Idk can we? I dont think amet will just hire a full team's worth of staff to make easy mode raids. If something is slowimg the production of comtent then they'd rather get rid of it. Same thing with fractals and the cms(they will prob release a new one at one point but they said they stoped making them becauae it took resources).

 

> > @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> > Bosses are already dying in minutes. Further reducing it will effect the combat, abilities cast/channel time etc. Worse case scenario, creating a solo play enviroment in a MMO.

>

> I don't believe that soloing even the easy mode raids will be possible (or at least not an efficient use of time for those that can manage it), but this is already a very solo-friendly MMO, so that would hardly be the worst thing to happen.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

>Idk can we? I dont think amet will just hire a full team's worth of staff to make easy mode raids. If something is slowimg the production of comtent then they'd rather get rid of it. Same thing with fractals and the cms(they will prob release a new one at one point but they said they stoped making them becauae it took resources).

 

Yes, but we don't know how many manhours this would take (you assume a lot, I assume very little), and we don't know the breakdown of employees at ANet and what each is doing at any given time (you assume that they are all fully occupied with vital tasks at every moment, I assume that they have some periods of less urgent development or that some are working on less than critical elements, like WvW or PvP). They managed to put a team together to make *raid* content, in *Guild Wars 2.* I'm pretty sure they could manage to put together a team to work on easy mode raids.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> >Idk can we? I dont think amet will just hire a full team's worth of staff to make easy mode raids. If something is slowimg the production of comtent then they'd rather get rid of it. Same thing with fractals and the cms(they will prob release a new one at one point but they said they stoped making them becauae it took resources).

>

> Yes, but we don't know how many manhours this would take (you assume a lot, I assume very little), and we don't know the breakdown of employees at ANet and what each is doing at any given time (you assume that they are all fully occupied with vital tasks at every moment, I assume that they have some periods of less urgent development or that some are working on less than critical elements, like WvW or PvP). They managed to put a team together to make *raid* content, in *Guild Wars 2.* I'm pretty sure they could manage to put together a team to work on easy mode raids.

 

Pve teams dont work on "wvw and pvp". Also explain me why of all things they would make an extra team and pull away from elsewhere to make raids and not idk living world?

 

Living world are the flagship content updates and the content which has the most teams and targets the biggest audience. Currently these updates take 2-3 months so why would they pull from there or fractals or hire new staff and not have the work on lving world so we can get updates for the majority of the playerbase at a reasonable pace?

 

 

I remember ppl screaming "gw2 is a wow clone booo" which really cant be further from te truth amd now we have ppl saying "take staff from other teams or hire new staff for raids over open world" lol.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

>Pve teams dont work on "wvw and pvp".

 

Yeah, but *someone* does, and this wouldn't be all that involved a project, mostly just shuffling deckchairs.

 

>Also explain me why of all things they would make an extra team and pull away from elsewhere to make raids and not idk living world?

 

Because Living World is handled, they're doing fine, they don't need more people.

 

>I remember ppl screaming "gw2 is a wow clone booo" which really cant be further from te truth amd now we have ppl saying "take staff from other teams or hire new staff for raids over open world" lol.

 

Not "over," just in addition to, and again, I am working on the basis that the difference would be negligible no matter what they do. Wherever they took people from, you, a a player, would never notice that there had been a change, because it would fall between the cracks of existing update schedules.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> >Pve teams dont work on "wvw and pvp".

>

> Yeah, but *someone* does, and this wouldn't be all that involved a project, mostly just shuffling deckchairs.

>

> >Also explain me why of all things they would make an extra team and pull away from elsewhere to make raids and not idk living world?

>

> Because Living World is handled, they're doing fine, they don't need more people.

>

> >I remember ppl screaming "gw2 is a wow clone booo" which really cant be further from te truth amd now we have ppl saying "take staff from other teams or hire new staff for raids over open world" lol.

>

> Not "over," just in addition to, and again, I am working on the basis that the difference would be negligible no matter what they do. Wherever they took people from, you, a a player, would never notice that there had been a change, because it would fall between the cracks of existing update schedules.

 

And when do you base that basis of yours? Your previous mmo that you and you company worked on?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > >Pve teams dont work on "wvw and pvp".

> >

> > Yeah, but *someone* does, and this wouldn't be all that involved a project, mostly just shuffling deckchairs.

> >

> > >Also explain me why of all things they would make an extra team and pull away from elsewhere to make raids and not idk living world?

> >

> > Because Living World is handled, they're doing fine, they don't need more people.

> >

> > >I remember ppl screaming "gw2 is a wow clone booo" which really cant be further from te truth amd now we have ppl saying "take staff from other teams or hire new staff for raids over open world" lol.

> >

> > Not "over," just in addition to, and again, I am working on the basis that the difference would be negligible no matter what they do. Wherever they took people from, you, a a player, would never notice that there had been a change, because it would fall between the cracks of existing update schedules.

>

> And when do you base that basis of yours? Your previous mmo that you and you company worked on?

 

When do you base that basis of yours? Your previous mmo that you and you company worked on?

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > >Pve teams dont work on "wvw and pvp".

> > >

> > > Yeah, but *someone* does, and this wouldn't be all that involved a project, mostly just shuffling deckchairs.

> > >

> > > >Also explain me why of all things they would make an extra team and pull away from elsewhere to make raids and not idk living world?

> > >

> > > Because Living World is handled, they're doing fine, they don't need more people.

> > >

> > > >I remember ppl screaming "gw2 is a wow clone booo" which really cant be further from te truth amd now we have ppl saying "take staff from other teams or hire new staff for raids over open world" lol.

> > >

> > > Not "over," just in addition to, and again, I am working on the basis that the difference would be negligible no matter what they do. Wherever they took people from, you, a a player, would never notice that there had been a change, because it would fall between the cracks of existing update schedules.

> >

> > And when do you base that basis of yours? Your previous mmo that you and you company worked on?

>

> When do you base that basis of yours? Your previous mmo that you and you company worked on?

 

Oops where*. I base mine on the "6 wings per year" that ended up being 1 wing per year.

 

Also you dont answer a question with another question. You answer the question and then ask your own.

[Kal Bhairav.6589]

what is so hard about raid itself anyway? Only the semi hard boss is Dhuum CM. I agree that, to get into raid because of all these 250+ li and KP makes it harder.