How to Counter-Siege Shield Generators.

[Taobella.6597]

treb AoE is bigger then shield bubble.

[Shroud.2307]

From a "general case," you would notify as many people as possible via /team chat and Teamspeak/Discord followed by a push. If the response is not quick enough, then your objective would have likely been doomed regardless. Siege Disabler spam rarely saves the day unless it's to prevent a smaller group from sniping something while your map Q is finishing up what it's doing before responding to your distress.

 

From a "specific circumstance," you're probably Outnumbered. Which means dying will be of no harm to you and little to the warscore. Swallow your pride and suicide with as many players as you can rally. Otherwise, you have 2 more options; Use a Catapult if it can hit where the Shield Generators are positioned. Catapults have a massive area of splash damage that can reach through a shield bubble if you _don't_ hit the bubble itself. Try to hit near the bubble rather than on it, and the splash damage should be able to damage the generator. Second option is to be patient with AC's and/or Ballistas and wait for the time between their activation. In all my time in WvW, I have rarely seen perfect co-ordination in bubble uptime. There's almost always a window of opportunity to attack, how ever brief they may sometimes be.

[Esprit Dumort.3109]

I see offensive shield gens used mostly when the enemy zerg wants to gank a T3 when the defending server's zerg is occupied across the map. So it's 3-4 gens with 5-6 superior rams to melt the door and prevent ACs and disables before the defending zerg can react. The small amount of defenders can only hope to have a tactic available to make the tower invulnerable to allow the zerg to save them. Otherwise the gen and mass ram tactic has minimal counter.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @Caedmon.6798 said:

> > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > I do not get on shield gens. However, given it impacts 'projectiles' I would suggest ACs and direct attack. Of course, direct attack is likely suicide in out numbered situations.

> >

> > Ac projectiles will get blocked.If there isnt a blob of the same size on the map there really isnt much you can do against it besides suiciding in over and over.

>

> It's interesting though: Anet doesn't call the AC arrows projectiles. It should penetrate.

 

I think it only blocks the conditions form the AC's at least not all AC's skills are aborved, if im not in mistake.

 

[Choppy.4183]

Two words: Bear Cavalry

 

EDIT: Beyond that, disablers delivered via stealth and/or pushing out in force, I guess. If against a keep or smc and the external siege can't reach inner, lining the impending breach with supply traps isn't a bad idea to split their forces (as they need to resup).

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

I think it's fine as is. Good defenders can use chained shields to protect Wall X, so a well-organized attacker will move to Gate B. And if that's not enough, turns out that good defenders are hard to come by. I've seen a small cadre of foes mow down a well-sieged objective because the defense was poorly coordinated.

[Zephyra.4709]

> @Lahmia.2193 said:

> You can disable a self shielded shield gen. The aoe of siege disabler is large enough to be cast outside the shield but still hit the generators.

 

This is true, done it plenty of times on my thief/guard. Make sure you have stability when diving out there.

[Reverence.6915]

Shield gens are fine as it is. I feel that if it's nerfed at all right now, it would ruin any viability to take any T3 structure unless it's completely undefended except with a golem rush. The way siege damage got changed, it's gotten a lot harder to take a T3 structure. If you make it harder, there's likely to be less action on the maps as certain servers will just camp their structures with siege, and the other servers would just be wandering around chasing roamers cause there's nothing else to kill.

[Rangerdeity.5847]

It kinda depends if they are up on a wall the best answer is to use cows from trebs to force the controlling player off by placing the center of the aoe 0.5m from the edge of the bubble. If they are on the ground a stealthed stab does a good job of knocking them out. nekros will be able to trail of anguish bomb and retreat come next update.

[Adamarc.7463]

> @Reverence.6915 said:

> Shield gens are fine as it is. I feel that if it's nerfed at all right now, it would ruin any viability to take any T3 structure unless it's completely undefended except with a golem rush. The way siege damage got changed, it's gotten a lot harder to take a T3 structure. If you make it harder, there's likely to be less action on the maps as certain servers will just camp their structures with siege, and the other servers would just be wandering around chasing roamers cause there's nothing else to kill.

 

I think you make a good point about the broader issues with WvW gameplay. While shield generators may be overpowered and difficult to counter, they aren't the only balance issue and the power of defensive tools like guild tactics encourage attackers to use things like shield generators, as well as a blob, in order to stand a reasonable chance of taking anything defended. A major rebalance is long overdue but unfortunately the community and developers have overly focused on rewards and scoring and given far less attention to balance and gameplay (the changes to the outnumbered buff are a good example of this). That's why I think it is important to have discussions like this one.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @Aeolus.3615 said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > @Caedmon.6798 said:

> > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > > I do not get on shield gens. However, given it impacts 'projectiles' I would suggest ACs and direct attack. Of course, direct attack is likely suicide in out numbered situations.

> > >

> > > Ac projectiles will get blocked.If there isnt a blob of the same size on the map there really isnt much you can do against it besides suiciding in over and over.

> >

> > It's interesting though: Anet doesn't call the AC arrows projectiles. It should penetrate.

>

> I think it only blocks the conditions form the AC's at least not all AC's skills are aborved, if im not in mistake.

>

 

It is a t5 rank and ability that causes AC fire to be blocked by force dome.

[Cerby.1069]

Well 2 people can man 4 generators and keep an almost perma shield going that covers everything. Given most people use catapults the cat shields can fill in the small 4 second cd gap. Or just get an alarc rev/mesmer going and ur fine with 3-4 gens.

 

You can do something similar with 7 catapults though. Or even just 6 cats, ur basic siege cap max...and get some alarc spam in there and ur good.

 

Bubbles of any kind are very much akin to stealth atm. You get stealth disruptors and those are what we are told is used to deal with thieves running those stupid stealth nike builds. Does it work? Technically ya.....but its so unpractical and hard to apply ingame that it leaves everyone scratching their heads how its a fair counter.

 

That's the problem with the gameplay. There is a complete lack of counterplay. There needs to be rock paper scissors going on with every ability ingame. Instead we got lazy as kitten balancing going on, and lack of updates or thought out updates. For example: they doubled catapult hp a while back......they didn't double balli damage tho. And recently they increased balli 1 damage vs siege.....but they forgot to balance it with balli 3. So now we got a balli 3 that does a mere 10k more damage than the normal balli shots do. You'll clear most siege as fast using just balli 1 as you will placing some balli 3 in the mix.....if you don't understand why go do some testing (hint: the hp values are so high and ambiguous that you are gonna be shooting an extra shot to clear a % much lower than your total damage output. and given the only difference is 10-20k over a long period of time.....it means the shot can just as well be balli 1'd in the same timeframe......why u make me explain this).

 

An even further example is that they increased catapult dps by 25% for full charge.....and didn't increase balli dps at all, cats counter! Wouldn't it make sense to increase balli dps based on range? lol. Srsly i got a group of 4 start building 2 kmart cats....so i immediately build balli at durios. I got both cats down to 90% and 60% mbe before the wall was almost down..so i just gaveup and dumped supply instead. You can damage catapults more with a ranged weapon than you can with a balli....balli 3 is such a joke ever since they doubled catapult hp.

 

The lesson is they never balance things properly when they make a change, and they always forget about counterplay when they make a change.....leading to awkward gameplay that deals with numbers being the definitive factor rather than any sense of skill.

 

 

> @"Zephyra.4709" ra.4709 said:

> > @Lahmia.2193 said:

> > You can disable a self shielded shield gen. The aoe of siege disabler is large enough to be cast outside the shield but still hit the generators.

>

> This is true, done it plenty of times on my thief/guard. Make sure you have stability when diving out there.

 

Its also untrue in most situations tho. Why? well think about it....has to do with what side of the generator the bubble is overarching. You can only disable from 1 side afterall. What if that side is blocked by a wall or cliff? What happens when people setup proxy cats/gens....

[Strider Pj.2193]

Somewhat unrelated note: why are people still building siege up against walls? The longer range has been shown to do AT LEAST the same DPS to the wall as catas close. It limits the siege that can hit the catas and people, and it hinders the use of disablers to stealth classes.

 

Am I missing something? Placing them outside of AC range, and ballista range really hinders the defensive options. Why waste supply on a shield gen?

 

Inner SMC or maybe the cata walls of certain keeps with very small havoc groups, but otherwise, distance seems to be a better option in most cases

[Cerby.1069]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> Somewhat unrelated note: why are people still building siege up against walls? The longer range has been shown to do AT LEAST the same DPS to the wall as catas close. It limits the siege that can hit the catas and people, and it hinders the use of disablers to stealth classes.

>

> Am I missing something? Placing them outside of AC range, and ballista range really hinders the defensive options. Why waste supply on a shield gen?

>

> Inner SMC or maybe the cata walls of certain keeps with very small havoc groups, but otherwise, distance seems to be a better option in most cases

 

"The longer range has been shown to do AT LEAST the same DPS to the wall as catas close" - Distance is irrelevant to damage. i don't know what you are saying here.

 

There are a couple situations now where yes you are correct, placing at range makes the most sense. Attacking Klovan as blue for example....attacking the wall from frogs is best option.

 

That said the benefits of proxy are still the same as before. You can kill plenty of defenders by doing proxy cats, while avoiding enemy cannons/mortar/balli/evensomeac. Large enough blobs have no reason not to proxy cat.....is really what it boils down to....you get more kills and stay blobbier by doing so. Its also faster to be right by the opening and not having people waste time aiming the cats. Beauty of proxy cats is you can full charge and aoe anything on the wall in addition to not missing hitting the wall....also alot less likely for an enemy stealth squad to get a disabler on you if all your people are all casting aoe and in a combat ready state.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @Cerby.1069 said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > Somewhat unrelated note: why are people still building siege up against walls? The longer range has been shown to do AT LEAST the same DPS to the wall as catas close. It limits the siege that can hit the catas and people, and it hinders the use of disablers to stealth classes.

> >

> > Am I missing something? Placing them outside of AC range, and ballista range really hinders the defensive options. Why waste supply on a shield gen?

> >

> > Inner SMC or maybe the cata walls of certain keeps with very small havoc groups, but otherwise, distance seems to be a better option in most cases

>

> "The longer range has been shown to do AT LEAST the same DPS to the wall as catas close" - Distance is irrelevant to damage. i don't know what you are saying here.

>

> There are a couple situations now where yes you are correct, placing at range makes the most sense. Attacking Klovan as blue for example....attacking the wall from frogs is best option.

>

> That said the benefits of proxy are still the same as before. You can kill plenty of defenders by doing proxy cats, while avoiding enemy cannons/mortar/balli/evensomeac. Large enough blobs have no reason not to proxy cat.....is really what it boils down to....you get more kills and stay blobbier by doing so. Its also faster to be right by the opening and not having people waste time aiming the cats. Beauty of proxy cats is you can full charge and aoe anything on the wall in addition to not missing hitting the wall....also alot less likely for an enemy stealth squad to get a disabler on you if all your people are all casting aoe and in a combat ready state.

 

I can see that. I guess the havoc group I run with can pop down three cats, in coms and rotate bubbles well enough that mortar fire and trebs arent an issue. Ballistas and cannons can't reach where we are at. In more of a blob, rotating becomes much harder. The distance from the structure dissuades stealth teams, but yeah, that is the Achilles heel.

[Artaz.3819]

Shield Generators x3 up and rotation coordination is not meant to be countered by any other siege to be a counterplay to heavy siege (ACs in towers, trebs on elevated ground hitting walls, etc.). The intent is the other team should be able to either get into the objective through a different means to minimize the Shield Generators or the opponents should "open battle" take care of (either through a coordinated zerg push, a stealth disabled/siege attack, suicide squad push, etc.)

 

There are counters just not with seige per se.

 

[apharma.3741]

My favourite is the quad shield gen set up with a 60 player zerg sitting under it on trebs attacking red keep in EB with trebs from SM. Only counters are to get close and disable in permanent stealth, which is another problem of WvW.

[Cerby.1069]

oh boys and girls, I forgots there are 2 lesser known counters you can all take advantage in certain situations. Guild Upgrades!

 

Chilling fog applies an unblockable chill to all siege in range. Ive used this to great success many times defending hills against medium sized zergs. It interrupts the cycle enough to land a critical mortar shot or whatever in, also gives a chance to get a disabler in and then said mortar. Prepare for at least 1 person to shout -WHO WASTED THE FOG!- after a quick explanation they are generally on board tho......other times they dont use their eyes or brain and call you a scrub for using it in a way that their senpai never told them about. trust me tho it undeniably saved the keep whenever I ran into people like this.

 

DRAGON BANNER!!!! I cannot stress how utterly amazing this is at defending against sieges. So much so that you really shouldnt que the other banners at all on anything you plan on defending. spam skills 2 and 3 on enemy siege. the awesome thing about both skills is they go straight through shield gens and other shields. not positive if skill 3 goes through cat bubbles tho. banner 2 is also safely spammable on the inner gate if they are ramming, its a highly effective interrupt. also banner 5 is amazing to land on enemy siege. its obviously hard to land that one tho without dying. also note it doesnt seem to do damage after you die or move too far away from where you cast it. the 5 skill is also a great way to, as a solo player, get a large group off hillss lord.....which is a stellar accomplishment. or even to do amazing damage against a zerg on the bridge in inner hills. i just run normal warrior zerker with it and i get stellar damage even with the 5 skill......someone running condi heavey will melt people. and this is as solo players. working in a group only makes it better.

[Link.1049]

> @Swamurabi.7890 said:

> If the shield generators are protecting rams or catas, they aren't protecting themselves.

> If the shield generators are protecting themselves, they aren't protecting rams or catas.

 

They tend to be built close enough to bubble both

 

[Sovereign.1093]

dragon banner kills blobs too =)