Is there a reason for the increasing escalation of mechanics and difficulty of fractals?

[zealex.9410]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > From before Heart of a Thorns release to season 2

>

> Thread 1: didn't even get replies, he is asking for something to do, nothing to do with Raids.

> Thread 2: Nothing about Raids, he is just asking: "Will there be new instanced content (raid type?) doubtful"

> Thread 3: Nothing about Raids, asking for Hard Mode similar to GW1 because he wants harder content

> Thread 4: Nothing about Raids, just one page of a thread, discusses how to expand Triple Trouble and call it GW2 Raids

> Thread 5: Nothing about Raids

> Thread 6: Nothing about Raids. "Outside of guild raids and GvG I’m playing some other game until the expansion is out." is the only part that has the word "Raid"

> Thread 7: Congratulations! One poster said: "4. 10+man raids" on his wish list. Nobody even responded, thread is not even 2 pages long. But at least we got one post that actually asks for it! Hardly "whining or begging for Raids" though

> Thread 8: Nothing about Raids (talking about instanced content they can do with more than 5 players)

> Thread 9: Nothing about Raids

> Thread 10: Nothing about Raids (Only this: "I mean the 4 hr doa raids in their prime.")

> Thread 11: Nothing about Raids

> Thread 12: posted twice, still Nothing about Raids

> Thread 13: Congratulations another thread talking about Raids, only this time he wants a 10-man version of the dungeons! Honestly, where would 10 players in some of them? That would be a mess

> Thread 14: Nothing about Raids

> Thread 15: Nothing about Raids

> Thread 16: Unlike the above, this is an actual Raid thread, you'd think that a CDI on Raids would've happened after the whining though. Also this is a thread full of feedback where players could post how they'd like Raids to look like. I think I posted there too. Hint: I don't like how Raids appeared in the game, I had a completely vision for them

>

> None of the above asked for Raids directly, the developer asking for Raids isn't the same as the "hardcore players whining about Raids". So even after 25 threads you haven't posted ONE thread that contains whining by the hardcore people to add Raids. And now this is getting rather tiring having to actually read all those threads, I think I did more than enough to discredit the "hardcore whining" argument and a big thank you to you for helping me out.

 

Whats your arguement? That ppl didnt ask for raids? It doesnt matter. PPl asked for hard content and an overall increas ein dificulty. And the devs found apropreate to add raids. I can see why they did it since there were ppl in the past asking for hard multiman encounters wether they were world bosses or something diff.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > From before Heart of a Thorns release to season 2

> >

> > Thread 1: didn't even get replies, he is asking for something to do, nothing to do with Raids.

> > Thread 2: Nothing about Raids, he is just asking: "Will there be new instanced content (raid type?) doubtful"

> > Thread 3: Nothing about Raids, asking for Hard Mode similar to GW1 because he wants harder content

> > Thread 4: Nothing about Raids, just one page of a thread, discusses how to expand Triple Trouble and call it GW2 Raids

> > Thread 5: Nothing about Raids

> > Thread 6: Nothing about Raids. "Outside of guild raids and GvG I’m playing some other game until the expansion is out." is the only part that has the word "Raid"

> > Thread 7: Congratulations! One poster said: "4. 10+man raids" on his wish list. Nobody even responded, thread is not even 2 pages long. But at least we got one post that actually asks for it! Hardly "whining or begging for Raids" though

> > Thread 8: Nothing about Raids (talking about instanced content they can do with more than 5 players)

> > Thread 9: Nothing about Raids

> > Thread 10: Nothing about Raids (Only this: "I mean the 4 hr doa raids in their prime.")

> > Thread 11: Nothing about Raids

> > Thread 12: posted twice, still Nothing about Raids

> > Thread 13: Congratulations another thread talking about Raids, only this time he wants a 10-man version of the dungeons! Honestly, where would 10 players in some of them? That would be a mess

> > Thread 14: Nothing about Raids

> > Thread 15: Nothing about Raids

> > Thread 16: Unlike the above, this is an actual Raid thread, you'd think that a CDI on Raids would've happened after the whining though. Also this is a thread full of feedback where players could post how they'd like Raids to look like. I think I posted there too. Hint: I don't like how Raids appeared in the game, I had a completely vision for them

> >

> > None of the above asked for Raids directly, the developer asking for Raids isn't the same as the "hardcore players whining about Raids". So even after 25 threads you haven't posted ONE thread that contains whining by the hardcore people to add Raids. And now this is getting rather tiring having to actually read all those threads, I think I did more than enough to discredit the "hardcore whining" argument and a big thank you to you for helping me out.

>

> Whats your arguement? That ppl didnt ask for raids? It doesnt matter. PPl asked for hard content and an overall increas ein dificulty. And the devs found apropreate to add raids. I can see why they did it since there were ppl in the past asking for hard multiman encounters wether they were world bosses or something diff.

 

People did want Raids, I think the context that MADD is talking about, was people nagging, complaining and rioting about raids. I couldn’t prove that people were whining about Raids this true from a forum perspective, however it seems ridiculous to state that no one complained about the lack of Raids in this game. People complained. I would be more shocked on lack of complaining honestly.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > From before Heart of a Thorns release to season 2

> > >

> > > Thread 1: didn't even get replies, he is asking for something to do, nothing to do with Raids.

> > > Thread 2: Nothing about Raids, he is just asking: "Will there be new instanced content (raid type?) doubtful"

> > > Thread 3: Nothing about Raids, asking for Hard Mode similar to GW1 because he wants harder content

> > > Thread 4: Nothing about Raids, just one page of a thread, discusses how to expand Triple Trouble and call it GW2 Raids

> > > Thread 5: Nothing about Raids

> > > Thread 6: Nothing about Raids. "Outside of guild raids and GvG I’m playing some other game until the expansion is out." is the only part that has the word "Raid"

> > > Thread 7: Congratulations! One poster said: "4. 10+man raids" on his wish list. Nobody even responded, thread is not even 2 pages long. But at least we got one post that actually asks for it! Hardly "whining or begging for Raids" though

> > > Thread 8: Nothing about Raids (talking about instanced content they can do with more than 5 players)

> > > Thread 9: Nothing about Raids

> > > Thread 10: Nothing about Raids (Only this: "I mean the 4 hr doa raids in their prime.")

> > > Thread 11: Nothing about Raids

> > > Thread 12: posted twice, still Nothing about Raids

> > > Thread 13: Congratulations another thread talking about Raids, only this time he wants a 10-man version of the dungeons! Honestly, where would 10 players in some of them? That would be a mess

> > > Thread 14: Nothing about Raids

> > > Thread 15: Nothing about Raids

> > > Thread 16: Unlike the above, this is an actual Raid thread, you'd think that a CDI on Raids would've happened after the whining though. Also this is a thread full of feedback where players could post how they'd like Raids to look like. I think I posted there too. Hint: I don't like how Raids appeared in the game, I had a completely vision for them

> > >

> > > None of the above asked for Raids directly, the developer asking for Raids isn't the same as the "hardcore players whining about Raids". So even after 25 threads you haven't posted ONE thread that contains whining by the hardcore people to add Raids. And now this is getting rather tiring having to actually read all those threads, I think I did more than enough to discredit the "hardcore whining" argument and a big thank you to you for helping me out.

> >

> > Whats your arguement? That ppl didnt ask for raids? It doesnt matter. PPl asked for hard content and an overall increas ein dificulty. And the devs found apropreate to add raids. I can see why they did it since there were ppl in the past asking for hard multiman encounters wether they were world bosses or something diff.

>

> People did want Raids, I think the context that MADD is talking about, was people nagging, complaining and rioting about raids. I couldn’t prove that people were whining about Raids this true from a forum perspective, however it seems ridiculous to state that no one complained about the lack of Raids in this game. People complained. I would be more shocked on lack of complaining honestly.

 

Raids can be w/e the devs want. Saying that the 4rth link doesnt say anything about raids is wrong. Raids stand for hard content. Wether its open world or instance, 10 man or 50 man is irrelevant.

[Genesis.5169]

Just PUGed 100cm+99cm+t4s with no wipes guys.

[Tyson.5160]

Cool Cool what profession?

[Genesis.5169]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> Cool Cool what profession?

 

I did 100cm as a chrono the rest as a mirage.

[Tyson.5160]

I should have guess that as I just read your Astralaria post.

[Genesis.5169]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> I should have guess that as I just read your Astralaria post.

 

:blush: You should post we need astralaria to be swag for Gaurdians to.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > I should have guess that as I just read your Astralaria post.

>

> :blush: You should post we need astralaria to be swag for Gaurdians to.

 

Isnt it already swag for guards?

[Genesis.5169]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > I should have guess that as I just read your Astralaria post.

> >

> > :blush: You should post we need astralaria to be swag for Gaurdians to.

>

> Isnt it already swag for guards?

 

There are no animation changes for gaurds and the regular swing of gaurdian AA overpowers the legendary.

[Talindra.4958]

Add some additional nice reward for doing casual daily content by rep guild members ..

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Sykper.6583" said:

> The issue is similar to the reasons why implementing better rewards for SPvP, didn't exactly help out the SPvP popularity by bringing in more PvPers. What happened was more "PvEers" joined PvP for the loot, hurting the innate population that rolled into matches with players who clearly didn't understand builds or how to play the mode in general.

>

> You are right, Raiding right now isn't perfect but not for the lack of popularity. **It's not meant to be for everyone** but _everyone who is willing can attempt it rather easily._ You need to have time, patience, and the capability to work with other players and play your class effectively. Creating an infantile mode doesn't add more raiders, it adds general PvEers who aren't in it for the challenge and wastes development time for the intended audience.

 

But this was actually part of the plan for those rewards. Bring in new players that don't know that game mode and hopefully some of them stay. Bringing in more PvP players makes no sense, they played the game mode before anyway.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> Just PUGed 100cm+99cm+t4s with no wipes guys.

 

Good one. Subtle reminder that is a thread about Fractals and not Raids.

I admit I'm guilty of making it about Raids too :)

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Raids can be w/e the devs want. Saying that the 4rth link doesnt say anything about raids is wrong. Raids stand for hard content. Wether its open world or instance, 10 man or 50 man is irrelevant.

 

People asked for challenging content, especially during release months and how can you blame them?

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/guild-wars-2/1223876p1.html

> These explorable dungeons, Fairfield explains, are meant to attract the crowd that would normally be raiding in other MMOs, and they'll last for about an hour and half.

An hour and a half for dungeons, attraction for the raiding crowd, that's what many expected and got none.

Why shouldn't they ask for what was advertised?

 

I was there and asked for it too, they were asking for meaningful END GAME that the game severely lacked on release. But saying that asking for end-game equals "whining about Raids" is nonsensical, especially considering how Arenanet always added harder and harder content in the game. Karka in Lost Shores, together with Fractals, the Molten Facility dungeon, the Aetherblade dungeon, the Queen's Gauntlet, and then challenging open world events like Marionette, Battle for LA and Scarlet's Hologram.

 

There is a fair difference between asking for challenging content and "whining about Raids". I never claimed nobody asked for challenging content, nor more meaningful end-game. I asked to be presented PROOF that players asked specifically for Raids, causing something like the huge "add mounts" thread or the recent "mount rng" thread. Something that would prove Raids were added due to forum whining, yet there is none of that. Even the little threads asking for Raids were barely 2 pages long, so they didn't matter and didn't have visibility at all.

 

On the other hand the anti-Raid crowd argument is "Raiders whined and got Raids, I will whine now to get them changed/removed". Yet there are loads of threads, just check this sub-forums front page, don't have to search far enough!, with loads of whining against Raiding. When someone use this argument, I expect a similar situation by pro-raiders, to justify it, yet I've seen none. There IS tons of whining AGAINST Raids, but there was none FOR Raids, so the argument "I will whine against Raids, just like you did." is a shallow and useless one.

[zealex.9410]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > Just PUGed 100cm+99cm+t4s with no wipes guys.

>

> Good one. Subtle reminder that is a thread about Fractals and not Raids.

> I admit I'm guilty of making it about Raids too :)

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Raids can be w/e the devs want. Saying that the 4rth link doesnt say anything about raids is wrong. Raids stand for hard content. Wether its open world or instance, 10 man or 50 man is irrelevant.

>

> People asked for challenging content, especially during release months and how can you blame them?

> http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/guild-wars-2/1223876p1.html

> > These explorable dungeons, Fairfield explains, are meant to attract the crowd that would normally be raiding in other MMOs, and they'll last for about an hour and half.

> An hour and a half for dungeons, attraction for the raiding crowd, that's what many expected and got none.

> Why shouldn't they ask for what was advertised?

>

> I was there and asked for it too, they were asking for meaningful END GAME that the game severely lacked on release. But saying that asking for end-game equals "whining about Raids" is nonsensical, especially considering how Arenanet always added harder and harder content in the game. Karka in Lost Shores, together with Fractals, the Molten Facility dungeon, the Aetherblade dungeon, the Queen's Gauntlet, and then challenging open world events like Marionette, Battle for LA and Scarlet's Hologram.

>

> There is a fair difference between asking for challenging content and "whining about Raids". I never claimed nobody asked for challenging content, nor more meaningful end-game. I asked to be presented PROOF that players asked specifically for Raids, causing something like the huge "add mounts" thread or the recent "mount rng" thread. Something that would prove Raids were added due to forum whining, yet there is none of that. Even the little threads asking for Raids were barely 2 pages long, so they didn't matter and didn't have visibility at all.

>

> On the other hand the anti-Raid crowd argument is "Raiders whined and got Raids, I will whine now to get them changed/removed". Yet there are loads of threads, just check this sub-forums front page, don't have to search far enough!, with loads of whining against Raiding. When someone use this argument, I expect a similar situation by pro-raiders, to justify it, yet I've seen none. There IS tons of whining AGAINST Raids, but there was none FOR Raids, so the argument "I will whine against Raids, just like you did." is a shallow and useless one.

 

These events they could have been called raids and they could have kept on releasing them till today. They chose to have the bulk of dificulty exist the way it does today.

 

Also really whats your arguement? That simply because more ppl whined about raids than the ppl that specifically asked for "10man instanced content with side stories as the setting and a lack of the dungeon like structure" they shouldnt have made raids?

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > > Just PUGed 100cm+99cm+t4s with no wipes guys.

> >

> > Good one. Subtle reminder that is a thread about Fractals and not Raids.

> > I admit I'm guilty of making it about Raids too :)

> >

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > Raids can be w/e the devs want. Saying that the 4rth link doesnt say anything about raids is wrong. Raids stand for hard content. Wether its open world or instance, 10 man or 50 man is irrelevant.

> >

> > People asked for challenging content, especially during release months and how can you blame them?

> > http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/guild-wars-2/1223876p1.html

> > > These explorable dungeons, Fairfield explains, are meant to attract the crowd that would normally be raiding in other MMOs, and they'll last for about an hour and half.

> > An hour and a half for dungeons, attraction for the raiding crowd, that's what many expected and got none.

> > Why shouldn't they ask for what was advertised?

> >

> > I was there and asked for it too, they were asking for meaningful END GAME that the game severely lacked on release. But saying that asking for end-game equals "whining about Raids" is nonsensical, especially considering how Arenanet always added harder and harder content in the game. Karka in Lost Shores, together with Fractals, the Molten Facility dungeon, the Aetherblade dungeon, the Queen's Gauntlet, and then challenging open world events like Marionette, Battle for LA and Scarlet's Hologram.

> >

> > There is a fair difference between asking for challenging content and "whining about Raids". I never claimed nobody asked for challenging content, nor more meaningful end-game. I asked to be presented PROOF that players asked specifically for Raids, causing something like the huge "add mounts" thread or the recent "mount rng" thread. Something that would prove Raids were added due to forum whining, yet there is none of that. Even the little threads asking for Raids were barely 2 pages long, so they didn't matter and didn't have visibility at all.

> >

> > On the other hand the anti-Raid crowd argument is "Raiders whined and got Raids, I will whine now to get them changed/removed". Yet there are loads of threads, just check this sub-forums front page, don't have to search far enough!, with loads of whining against Raiding. When someone use this argument, I expect a similar situation by pro-raiders, to justify it, yet I've seen none. There IS tons of whining AGAINST Raids, but there was none FOR Raids, so the argument "I will whine against Raids, just like you did." is a shallow and useless one.

>

> These events they could have been called raids and they could have kept on releasing them till today. They chose to have the bulk of dificulty exist the way it does today.

>

> Also really whats your arguement? That simply because more ppl whined about raids than the ppl that specifically asked for "10man instanced content with side stories as the setting and a lack of the dungeon like structure" they shouldnt have made raids?

 

.... read carefully please because you seem to miss a lot of points.

 

Mads point is that people were not specifically whining about raids or asking specifically for raids but instead people were asking for challenging endgame content which then arenanet decided to supply via fractals and raids.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > > > Just PUGed 100cm+99cm+t4s with no wipes guys.

> > >

> > > Good one. Subtle reminder that is a thread about Fractals and not Raids.

> > > I admit I'm guilty of making it about Raids too :)

> > >

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > Raids can be w/e the devs want. Saying that the 4rth link doesnt say anything about raids is wrong. Raids stand for hard content. Wether its open world or instance, 10 man or 50 man is irrelevant.

> > >

> > > People asked for challenging content, especially during release months and how can you blame them?

> > > http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/guild-wars-2/1223876p1.html

> > > > These explorable dungeons, Fairfield explains, are meant to attract the crowd that would normally be raiding in other MMOs, and they'll last for about an hour and half.

> > > An hour and a half for dungeons, attraction for the raiding crowd, that's what many expected and got none.

> > > Why shouldn't they ask for what was advertised?

> > >

> > > I was there and asked for it too, they were asking for meaningful END GAME that the game severely lacked on release. But saying that asking for end-game equals "whining about Raids" is nonsensical, especially considering how Arenanet always added harder and harder content in the game. Karka in Lost Shores, together with Fractals, the Molten Facility dungeon, the Aetherblade dungeon, the Queen's Gauntlet, and then challenging open world events like Marionette, Battle for LA and Scarlet's Hologram.

> > >

> > > There is a fair difference between asking for challenging content and "whining about Raids". I never claimed nobody asked for challenging content, nor more meaningful end-game. I asked to be presented PROOF that players asked specifically for Raids, causing something like the huge "add mounts" thread or the recent "mount rng" thread. Something that would prove Raids were added due to forum whining, yet there is none of that. Even the little threads asking for Raids were barely 2 pages long, so they didn't matter and didn't have visibility at all.

> > >

> > > On the other hand the anti-Raid crowd argument is "Raiders whined and got Raids, I will whine now to get them changed/removed". Yet there are loads of threads, just check this sub-forums front page, don't have to search far enough!, with loads of whining against Raiding. When someone use this argument, I expect a similar situation by pro-raiders, to justify it, yet I've seen none. There IS tons of whining AGAINST Raids, but there was none FOR Raids, so the argument "I will whine against Raids, just like you did." is a shallow and useless one.

> >

> > These events they could have been called raids and they could have kept on releasing them till today. They chose to have the bulk of dificulty exist the way it does today.

> >

> > Also really whats your arguement? That simply because more ppl whined about raids than the ppl that specifically asked for "10man instanced content with side stories as the setting and a lack of the dungeon like structure" they shouldnt have made raids?

>

> .... read carefully please because you seem to miss a lot of points.

>

> Mads point is that people were not specifically whining about raids or asking specifically for raids but instead people were asking for challenging endgame content which then arenanet decided to supply via fractals and raids.

 

I understand that but what purpose does that arguement serve really?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> I understand that but what purpose does that arguement serve really?

 

The "full" argument is "You whined about getting Raids and you got them, so I will whine against Raids so they remove/change them."

I'm saying that the first part of the argument never happened, therefore the latter part is also pointless.

[zealex.9410]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > I understand that but what purpose does that arguement serve really?

>

> The "full" argument is "You whined about getting Raids and you got them, so I will whine against Raids so they remove/change them."

> I'm saying that the first part of the argument never happened, therefore the latter part is also pointless.

 

Even if that part of the arguement had happened, the whole arguement makes no sense. lol

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > I understand that but what purpose does that arguement serve really?

> >

> > The "full" argument is "You whined about getting Raids and you got them, so I will whine against Raids so they remove/change them."

> > I'm saying that the first part of the argument never happened, therefore the latter part is also pointless.

>

> Even if that part of the arguement had happened, the whole arguement makes no sense. lol

 

Yeah I know, but it is repeated over and over on all Raid-related threads, especially by the most vocal forum anti-raid people ;)

I tried to find a way to more "objectively" remove it so hopefully we won't see it again, saying "it makes no sense" never worked in the past!

Anyway this discussion is rather over cya in the next "Raids are bad" thread :)

[zealex.9410]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > I understand that but what purpose does that arguement serve really?

> > >

> > > The "full" argument is "You whined about getting Raids and you got them, so I will whine against Raids so they remove/change them."

> > > I'm saying that the first part of the argument never happened, therefore the latter part is also pointless.

> >

> > Even if that part of the arguement had happened, the whole arguement makes no sense. lol

>

> Yeah I know, but it is repeated over and over on all Raid-related threads, especially by the most vocal forum anti-raid people ;)

> I tried to find a way to more "objectively" remove it so hopefully we won't see it again, saying "it makes no sense" never worked in the past!

> Anyway this discussion is rather over cya in the next "Raids are bad" thread :)

 

Cya in 9 months m8 o/

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Sykper.6583" said:

> The issue is similar to the reasons why implementing better rewards for SPvP, didn't exactly help out the SPvP popularity by bringing in more PvPers. What happened was more "PvEers" joined PvP for the loot, hurting the innate population that rolled into matches with players who clearly didn't understand builds or how to play the mode in general.

>

> You are right, Raiding right now isn't perfect but not for the lack of popularity. **It's not meant to be for everyone** but _everyone who is willing can attempt it rather easily._ You need to have time, patience, and the capability to work with other players and play your class effectively. **Creating an infantile mode doesn't add more raiders, it adds general PvEers who aren't in it for the challenge** and wastes development time for the intended audience.

 

Nope. Adding things that those players might want (be it story or legendary gear) and putting them behind Raids is what brings the general PvErs in. Exactly the same as happened in SPvP. If there was nothing enticing for said general players in Raids, nobody would ask for easy/story mode.

 

@"maddoctor.2738"

just search reddit in the 2013-2015 range. You will see quite a number of posts about lack of endgame (many specifically mentioning raids), and many other posts about how widespread this asking about raids is. And that's just reddit. if you widen it up to any sites in that date range you will see a number of blogs and mmozine comments as well.

 

And all those are just the posts that mention the word "raid". There were also a lot that asked for hardmode\elite dungeons, instanced boss fights, often mentioning an increased group size for that. And a lot that were just plain complaining that "there's no endgame".

 

I get the feeling though that you'll say that those do not count because they're not asking for specifically the raids as they are now. Or they do not count, because in your eyes they are "legitimate complains", as opposed to "whining" (which is when someone complains agains something you happen to like).

 

Notice also, that while you try to reduce the argument to "You whined about getting Raids and you got them, so I will whine against Raids so they remove/change them.", it's more like "a certain group of players lobbied the devs to have the game changed to be more to their liking, so there's no reason why it couldn't work for other groups as well". Yes, it's unfortunate that the word "whining" got used for this, but i wasn't the one that introduced it to the discussion.

 

Edit: was going to include a link to the search results, but for some reason it doesn't work when linked through the GW2 forum linking mechanic. Copying seems to work though:

https://www.google.pl/search?lr=&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:1/1/2013,cd_max:1/1/2015&q=raids+site:https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2&oq=raids+site:https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2&gws_rd=cr&dcr=0

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > > > > Just PUGed 100cm+99cm+t4s with no wipes guys.

> > > >

> > > > Good one. Subtle reminder that is a thread about Fractals and not Raids.

> > > > I admit I'm guilty of making it about Raids too :)

> > > >

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > Raids can be w/e the devs want. Saying that the 4rth link doesnt say anything about raids is wrong. Raids stand for hard content. Wether its open world or instance, 10 man or 50 man is irrelevant.

> > > >

> > > > People asked for challenging content, especially during release months and how can you blame them?

> > > > http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/guild-wars-2/1223876p1.html

> > > > > These explorable dungeons, Fairfield explains, are meant to attract the crowd that would normally be raiding in other MMOs, and they'll last for about an hour and half.

> > > > An hour and a half for dungeons, attraction for the raiding crowd, that's what many expected and got none.

> > > > Why shouldn't they ask for what was advertised?

> > > >

> > > > I was there and asked for it too, they were asking for meaningful END GAME that the game severely lacked on release. But saying that asking for end-game equals "whining about Raids" is nonsensical, especially considering how Arenanet always added harder and harder content in the game. Karka in Lost Shores, together with Fractals, the Molten Facility dungeon, the Aetherblade dungeon, the Queen's Gauntlet, and then challenging open world events like Marionette, Battle for LA and Scarlet's Hologram.

> > > >

> > > > There is a fair difference between asking for challenging content and "whining about Raids". I never claimed nobody asked for challenging content, nor more meaningful end-game. I asked to be presented PROOF that players asked specifically for Raids, causing something like the huge "add mounts" thread or the recent "mount rng" thread. Something that would prove Raids were added due to forum whining, yet there is none of that. Even the little threads asking for Raids were barely 2 pages long, so they didn't matter and didn't have visibility at all.

> > > >

> > > > On the other hand the anti-Raid crowd argument is "Raiders whined and got Raids, I will whine now to get them changed/removed". Yet there are loads of threads, just check this sub-forums front page, don't have to search far enough!, with loads of whining against Raiding. When someone use this argument, I expect a similar situation by pro-raiders, to justify it, yet I've seen none. There IS tons of whining AGAINST Raids, but there was none FOR Raids, so the argument "I will whine against Raids, just like you did." is a shallow and useless one.

> > >

> > > These events they could have been called raids and they could have kept on releasing them till today. They chose to have the bulk of dificulty exist the way it does today.

> > >

> > > Also really whats your arguement? That simply because more ppl whined about raids than the ppl that specifically asked for "10man instanced content with side stories as the setting and a lack of the dungeon like structure" they shouldnt have made raids?

> >

> > .... read carefully please because you seem to miss a lot of points.

> >

> > Mads point is that people were not specifically whining about raids or asking specifically for raids but instead people were asking for challenging endgame content which then arenanet decided to supply via fractals and raids.

>

> I understand that but what purpose does that arguement serve really?

 

He is disagreeing with people who are stating that forum whining in the past about lack of raids was a crucial factor that arenanet implemented them, which it wasn't.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> He is disagreeing with people who are stating that forum whining in the past about lack of raids was a crucial factor that arenanet implemented them, which it wasn't.

And i'm disagreeing with his claim that people asking for endgame content had no impact whatsoever on Anet introducing raids. We already know that the Raid CDI was created in response to exactly such demands, for one.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> just search reddit in the 2013-2015 range. You will see quite a number of posts about lack of endgame (many specifically mentioning raids), and many other posts about how widespread this asking about raids is. And that's just reddit. if you widen it up to any sites in that date range you will see a number of blogs and mmozine comments as well.

>

 

Let's take the search results and see what we got!

Thread 1: nothing about Raids, just asking what is a Raid

Thread 2: nothing about Raids

Thread 3: nothing about Raids

Thread 4: nothing about Raids

Thread 5: nothing about Raids

Thread 6: nothing about Raids

Thread 7: nothing about Raids

Thread 8: nothing about Raids

Thread 9: nothing about Raids

Thread 10: nothing about Raids

 

That's on the first page of the results you send.

I'm not gonna go over the rest of the pages because it's clear how you did your search. Just because a thread has the word Raid in it, doesn't mean it's about Raids as content.

 

Where are those posts specifically mentioning Raids?

The posts talking about how widespread asking about Raids is were created by the same people who now talk about "Raid whine"? Then they have zero value.

 

Still you gave zero proof that whining about Raids existed.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > He is disagreeing with people who are stating that forum whining in the past about lack of raids was a crucial factor that arenanet implemented them, which it wasn't.

> And i'm disagreeing with his claim that people asking for endgame content had no impact whatsoever on Anet introducing raids. We already know that the Raid CDI was created in response to exactly such demands, for one.

>

 

Again, it was a whine about the lack of end game not about the lack of Raids. They did give us "new end game", from one-time events in the beginning, to the introduction of new gear tier plus new content to acquire that, and then it only got further. Every single release until Scarlet died was about adding endgame, the temporary nature of the content made sure that players focused on that, making it a constantly evolving "end game". That was the game's endgame form and I think satisfied most players. It was also unique in the MMORPG scene to have such evolving endgame.

 

Then with Scarlet's death they stopped that, they gave us two zones that were only about grind/farm (Dry Top/ Silverwastes) and their challenge level was ridiculously low compared to what we got earlier. For one and a half years that's the only content we got and we went back to "no endgame".