Is there a reason for the increasing escalation of mechanics and difficulty of fractals?

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > He is disagreeing with people who are stating that forum whining in the past about lack of raids was a crucial factor that arenanet implemented them, which it wasn't.

> And i'm disagreeing with his claim that people asking for endgame content had no impact whatsoever on Anet introducing raids. We already know that the Raid CDI was created in response to exactly such demands, for one.

>

 

Which is your right, but so far the side arguing that forum activity had an impact is void of proof at least in form of old threads.

 

Obviously none of us will ever truly know what the decision process looked like and who was involved unless arenanet comes out and states their process (which they won't).

 

It does make for a lot weaker argument though if you can't show or prove that your claim could be true.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > He is disagreeing with people who are stating that forum whining in the past about lack of raids was a crucial factor that arenanet implemented them, which it wasn't.

> > And i'm disagreeing with his claim that people asking for endgame content had no impact whatsoever on Anet introducing raids. We already know that the Raid CDI was created in response to exactly such demands, for one.

> >

>

> Again, it was a whine about the lack of end game not about the lack of Raids. They did give us "new end game", from one-time events in the beginning, to the introduction of new gear tier plus new content to acquire that, and then it only got further. Every single release until Scarlet died was about adding endgame, the temporary nature of the content made sure that players focused on that, making it a constantly evolving "end game". That was the game's endgame form and I think satisfied most players. It was also unique in the MMORPG scene to have such evolving endgame.

>

> Then with Scarlet's death they stopped that, they gave us two zones that were only about grind/farm (Dry Top/ Silverwastes) and their challenge level was ridiculously low compared to what we got earlier. For one and a half years that's the only content we got and we went back to "no endgame".

By the time Dry Top and Silverwastes came out, they were already working on HoT (and likely Raids were a decision made). We just didn't know that yet then.

 

And yes, people asked about endgame, but asked also about increased challenge, and about shunting that increased challenge off into instanced content (to filter out Bad Players). These things kept returning quite often, even if raids were not mentioned outright. I do remember a lot of those for example in the Teq Revamp threads. Each time Anet introduced something they thought of as a new challenge for the players, new posts appeared that "refined" the wishes.

Remember the abovementioned Teq and Triple Trouble? They were a result of people complaining that worldbosses are too easy and too faceroll. And when Anet revamped Teq and introduced the 3H wurm, suddenly the voices now were saying "we want that instanced, so the randoms won't pollute our fight" (not that they didn't have a point - original Teq was just too finetuned, and even a few bad players could then make a mess of it for everyone else).

 

And as for your comments on my search link: Either you've got different search results than me (always possible with google), or you didn't read the threads deep enough. There's alot of "no challenging endmode" complains i can see there.

Won't be continuing on that however, as it does seem pointless. You will likely keep claiming that noone even mentioned raids in that time anyway. Or find another reason why "that one post" doesn't count.

 

 

[Turin.6921]

Just going to leave this here for those that find the new fractal too difficult (bonus for those also think reaper is useless). I know it does not prove anything obviously but i find it very funny in the context of this discussion.

 

 

 

BTW This a pretty nice guide for those that have issue with learning to dodge the boss AoEs

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> By the time Dry Top and Silverwastes came out, they were already working on HoT (and likely Raids were a decision made). We just didn't know that yet then.

>

 

Probably part of the issue, which doesn't explain how we got 2 contain drought periods, one before and one after Heart of Thorns. But that's for another discussion anyway.

 

> And yes, people asked about endgame, but asked also about increased challenge, and about shunting that increased challenge off into instanced content

 

The Marionette was a clear example of why the two groups of players shouldn't play together. When enough bad players landed on the platforms, the event failed, when a "hardcore" player couldn't land on the platform they got bored fighting the waves. It didn't work and adding instanced challenging content was one solution, that's why we got the Raid CDI. They've been evolving the ways to give us more challenging content over the years, and sadly none worked. That's why we got instanced Raids, not because people asked for them, it was an evolutionary progress (which in some way went backwards, but there was reason for it)

 

> Won't be continuing on that however, as it does seem pointless. You will likely keep claiming that noone even mentioned raids in that time anyway. Or find another reason why "that one post" doesn't count.

>

 

Well that works both ways, you will find any kind of reason to say that a thread counts, when it doesn't even talk about the subject.

Examples: "I mean the 4 hr doa raids in their prime", "Will there be new instanced content (raid type?) doubtful" and "Outside of guild raids and GvG" all sentences found on threads that contain the word "Raid", yet are completely irrelevant to the subject at hand. Just because it contains the word, doesn't mean anything.

And again, I didn't use the argument, I just wanted people that use it to give proof of it.

[Torolan.5816]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > And yes, people asked about endgame, but asked also about increased challenge, and about shunting that increased challenge off into instanced content

>

> The Marionette was a clear example of why the two groups of players shouldn't play together. When enough bad players landed on the platforms, the event failed, when a "hardcore" player couldn't land on the platform they got bored fighting the waves. It didn't work and adding instanced challenging content was one solution, that's why we got the Raid CDI. They've been evolving the ways to give us more challenging content over the years, and sadly none worked. That's why we got instanced Raids, not because people asked for them, it was an evolutionary progress (which in some way went backwards, but there was reason for it)

>

 

And this is where Anet made a wrong decision in my opinion. To stay at the side of the casual crowd would have made them unique and would have served as stand alone attribute. I agree with you though that entitled elitism pretty much reared its ugly head then, so much rage from basically the same skrittholes all day about how casuals ruined their day and they now had to try again in an hour or so. Up until then I had no idea what entitled elitism was really all about.

Add a real conquer and hold your own ground mode for wvw and make people who were yearning for the days of DAOC(justified or not) try their luck with a game that holds the tradition of its precessor and combines it with the probably best feature of Eve online and in my mind you would have a winner with a really loyal fanbase of oldschool gamers with stable income on one hand and the young people looking for a quick entertainment on the other hand. As we stand today, we have the same clone of a game everyone has.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> The Marionette was a clear example of why the two groups of players shouldn't play together. When enough bad players landed on the platforms, the event failed, when a "hardcore" player couldn't land on the platform they got bored fighting the waves. It didn't work and adding instanced challenging content was one solution, that's why we got the Raid CDI. They've been evolving the ways to give us more challenging content over the years, and sadly none worked. That's why we got instanced Raids, not because people asked for them, it was an evolutionary progress (which in some way went backwards, but there was reason for it)

Yes, precisely. They were giving us more and more challenging content, with Raids as the end result. Now, _why_ were they giving us more and more challenging content? It was because there was a strong group of voices that kept asking about those.

 

Marionnette, by the way, was not a failure because it was not instanced. It was a failure because it put too much dependency on _individual_ players. There were several points of failure built in, and if even one failed, the whole platform fight had to be redone. And there weren't really any meaningful backup plans, allowing the better players to cover for the less skilled ones.

 

Additionally Anet decided, that they wanted to set the difficulty level at slightly above average open world player skill level (in order to push the players and create tension). And they forgot that would mean that over half of the participating players would end up _below_ the required skill bar. If you couple that with the previous point, that was a clear recipe for a disaster.

 

(on top of that, some of the platform boss mechanics were clearly made by designers that forgot about the existence of ranger pets, necro minions and mesmer clones, but that was just a minor annoyance when compared to the previous points)

 

In the long run, Teq (after a number of nerfs) ended up to be a much better fight, because it was much harder in it for a single player to derail the whole encounter.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > The Marionette was a clear example of why the two groups of players shouldn't play together. When enough bad players landed on the platforms, the event failed, when a "hardcore" player couldn't land on the platform they got bored fighting the waves. It didn't work and adding instanced challenging content was one solution, that's why we got the Raid CDI. They've been evolving the ways to give us more challenging content over the years, and sadly none worked. That's why we got instanced Raids, not because people asked for them, it was an evolutionary progress (which in some way went backwards, but there was reason for it)

> Yes, precisely. They were giving us more and more challenging content, with Raids as the end result. Now, _why_ were they giving us more and more challenging content? It was because there was a strong group of voices that kept asking about those.

>

>

 

No, because it was the content that was missing from the game.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > The Marionette was a clear example of why the two groups of players shouldn't play together. When enough bad players landed on the platforms, the event failed, when a "hardcore" player couldn't land on the platform they got bored fighting the waves. It didn't work and adding instanced challenging content was one solution, that's why we got the Raid CDI. They've been evolving the ways to give us more challenging content over the years, and sadly none worked. That's why we got instanced Raids, not because people asked for them, it was an evolutionary progress (which in some way went backwards, but there was reason for it)

> Yes, precisely. They were giving us more and more challenging content, with Raids as the end result. Now, _why_ were they giving us more and more challenging content? It was because there was a strong group of voices that kept asking about those.

>

>

 

I disagree. I remember people getting bored 2-4 weeks after launch with nothing to do and player retention was bad. There was an overall desire for some type of endgame. Raids are part of the solution but certainly not the only aspect.

 

Since then arenanet has added (not in order):

 

- ascended gear which in its nature is quite grindy while at the same time being no really mandatory upgrade

- multiple more farms in both open world as well as instanced content

- achievement points

- elite specialisations

- multiple gold sinks for cosmetic items (which sort of became GW2 unofficial endgame)

- fractals and their increasing difficulty nature

- raids

- revamps to spvp and wvw

- increase in challenge for story missions as well as better designed story missions

 

Raids were part of the solution to the problem of having no widely accepted endgame for a majority of players. To say raids were the only result of an endgame desire is false and even more false if one takes a look at how much development and resources goes into all the other modes.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Yes, precisely. They were giving us more and more challenging content, with Raids as the end result. Now, _why_ were they giving us more and more challenging content? It was because there was a strong group of voices that kept asking about those.

>

 

A group that was asking for the inclusion of content that was advertised to be in the game but none of it existed. Remember that dungeons were supposed to be content for those who love RAIDS in other games? But they clearly weren't that content.

 

Plus, the developers and the players were new to the mechanics of the game, it only makes sense to progress forward and find new and more interesting ways to challenge the players otherwise things get stale and boring. And it's not about challenge alone, it's about player retention, player engagement and in the end revenue. Those asking for end game didn't do it out of spite, but because they got bored with the game and were asking for something more interesting to be added in the game.

At first they tried to release content for both types of players, but clearly cooperation wasn't going to happen, with the most obvious Marionette example.

As I said, it was evolution, like it or not, instanced Raids would've been added anyway, despite anything written on the forums, reddit or elsewhere. There was hope that the content type of Guild Wars 2 would be different and cater to the raiding crowd while at the same time more casual players also loved it. I think we can all agree that premise failed, so they had to either add instanced raids to separate the two crowds or add only open world blob farming, for 1 and a half year they did just that, Dry Top and Silverwastes / Season 2 era was the most boring and un-exciting period of Guild Wars 2 (and it shows on the charts too)

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > Yes, precisely. They were giving us more and more challenging content, with Raids as the end result. Now, _why_ were they giving us more and more challenging content? It was because there was a strong group of voices that kept asking about those.

> >

>

> A group that was asking for the inclusion of content that was advertised to be in the game but none of it existed. Remember that dungeons were supposed to be content for those who love RAIDS in other games?

Sure. I remember they also said they know that few months into the game players will consider them to be easy. And when that _didn't_ happen for most, they started nerfing. I also remember statements like "In Guild Wars 2, the dungeons are being designed so that any group of five can tackle them and, in theory, complete them with little to no modification made to the party. ".

They vere giving out a number of contradicting statements then, and it was mostly clear to those that paid attention that they wanted dungeons to be considered a "challenging content" for prestige reasons, but didn't actually want them to be hard enough to discourage players. Or at least that was the feeling i had then. You might have had a different one.

 

Besides in the same article as the dungeon difficulty quote you so like, Colin was also saying how underwater content was important for them and how well-developed it was.

And there was anothe post (one i can't find now, unfortunately) where they said that while doing dungeon explorables, picking your build for your class (and group synergy) will be important. And the example given was a 5-thief group with each running a different build. With one being a _tank support_. Which was a joke even during betas.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>There was hope that the content type of Guild Wars 2 would be different and cater to the raiding crowd while at the same time more casual players also loved it. I think we can all agree that premise failed, so they had to either add instanced raids to separate the two crowds or add only open world blob farming, for 1 and a half year they did just that, Dry Top and Silverwastes / Season 2 era was the most boring and un-exciting period of Guild Wars 2 (and it shows on the charts too)

They definitely did want to please everyone, which from the beginning was an utopian dream. Though, i think that what they wanted them was for the "veteran MMO players" to get hooked on to how innovative the devs planned their game to be. _Not_ to the old-school instanced content. Yes, that hope obviously didn't come true (for many reasons). You're right that the idea to separate those two groups would have been a good one. Problem is, that the current implementation is also flawed, because it doesn't separate the players enough. Quite the opposite, devs _still_ keep on thinking that players from one group can be enticed to play the content meant for a different group. Only that the direction now is completely reversed compared to their original idea. And in the end it's working exactly as well as it worked then - so, not at all.

 

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> I also remember statements like "In Guild Wars 2, the dungeons are being designed so that any group of five can tackle them and, in theory, complete them with little to no modification made to the party. "

 

Which means it wasn't content for those who like Raiding at all. Raiding = roles, if any group of five can finish content it means there are no roles involved. There were only a few encounters where roles were important, like Simin.

 

> Besides in the same article as the dungeon difficulty quote you so like, Colin was also saying how underwater content was important for them and how well-developed it was.

 

Underwater content was praised on release and for a long time afterwards. That they chose to abandon it completely is a mystery only they know about. Still an underwater expansion where we fight the Deep Sea Dragon shouldn't be out of the question.

 

> And there was anothe post (one i can't find now, unfortunately) where they said that while doing dungeon explorables, picking your build for your class (and group synergy) will be important. And the example given was a 5-thief group with each running a different build. With one being a _tank support_. Which was a joke even during betas.

 

All you are saying here is that they promised some type of content to be there but it wasn't. Yet you find it odd when people asked for that type of content after release!

 

> They definitely did want to please everyone, which from the beginning was an utopian dream. Though, i think that what they wanted them was for the "veteran MMO players" to get hooked on to how innovative the devs planned their game to be. _Not_ to the old-school instanced content. Yes, that hope obviously didn't come true (for many reasons). You're right that the idea to separate those two groups would have been a good one. Problem is, that the current implementation is also flawed, because it doesn't separate the players enough. Quite the opposite, devs _still_ keep on thinking that players from one group can be enticed to play the content meant for a different group. Only that the direction now is completely reversed compared to their original idea. And in the end it's working exactly as well as it worked then - so, not at all.

>

 

For 1 full year they only gave us meaningful instanced content and the open world was either pointless champions that were up-leveled normal mobs (southsun) or events that involved pressing F to hit pinatas and fix refugee signs. I find hard to believe that their aim was to hook players with their open world, when the majority of the game's content during the first year was instanced dungeons and story instances. And during the later part, up until the last 3 months of Season 1, it was still a mix of open world and instanced content. It wasn't until the end of Scarlet that instanced content completely vanished and the entire game was geared towards the open world.

I think they separate players just fine now, there are problems with the current implementation but at least the separation works.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> For 1 full year they only gave us meaningful instanced content and the open world was either pointless champions that were up-leveled normal mobs (southsun) or events that involved pressing F to hit pinatas and fix refugee signs. I find hard to believe that their aim was to hook players with their open world, when the majority of the game's content during the first year was instanced dungeons and story instances.

I did say that for many reasons this didn't work. One of those reasons was that the game was rushed to the release (with many parts of the game in half0finished state, which they've never completely fixed). Another was that they ended up plain unable to follow up with at least parts of their original design. The initial dynamic events were to be just a beginning, and they hoped (or at least seemed to hope) to create a truly evolving, living world. Turns out that they didn't really have the manpower for that, and many people wre not thrilled with the downsized version (and others were too conditioned to expect anything except the "classic MMORPG" stuff).

A pity, i actually quite liked that original approach.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> I think they separate players just fine now, there are problems with the current implementation but at least the separation works.

Works for _you_, but currently it's completely one-sided. You get all the benefits and no downsides, but those on the other side of that "separation" line get exactly the opposite. No benefits and only downsides.

 

 

[apharma.3741]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > He is disagreeing with people who are stating that forum whining in the past about lack of raids was a crucial factor that arenanet implemented them, which it wasn't.

> > And i'm disagreeing with his claim that people asking for endgame content had no impact whatsoever on Anet introducing raids. We already know that the Raid CDI was created in response to exactly such demands, for one.

> >

>

> Which is your right, but so far the side arguing that forum activity had an impact is void of proof at least in form of old threads.

>

> Obviously none of us will ever truly know what the decision process looked like and who was involved unless arenanet comes out and states their process (which they won't).

>

> It does make for a lot weaker argument though if you can't show or prove that your claim could be true.

 

 

Start watching from 2 minutes in till about 4m30s.

 

So from this video we have a senior member of ArenaNet, at the time, not only saying people have been asking for more endgame content but listing what they intend it to be (which you listed nicely in another post further up). If you kept watching the video to the raids trailer it clearly states “assemble your team for the greatest challenge yet” which indicates not only that raids are supposed to be the hardest content but that this was driven by feedback. That doesn’t necessarily mean forums however we have been told explicitly by Gaile that devs do read the forums even if they don’t respond. He also didn’t explicitly say players or state the medium which they listen to feedback from however that is likely because it is a range from reddit, the forums to reviews and videos from content creators.

 

So yes raids and harder fractals are the result of feedback wherever it came from. You have it on video.

[Tyson.5160]

Sorry, I’m now getting confused on what you want proof of. Are you saying no one wanted Raid content? Here is the From the gw2 raid announcement.

 

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

 

“You asked for the ultimate challenging content in Guild Wars 2”

 

Who asked? Players? Typically when people say end game content, they look to their favorite mmo aka wow and think Raids. When people ask for end game they aren’t thinking I need quests or pvp, they want Raids.

[Tyson.5160]

 

> Notice also, that while you try to reduce the argument to "You whined about getting Raids and you got them, so I will whine against Raids so they remove/change them.",

 

Not my intention to get Raids removed and the only reason I chimed because apparently there was a notion that no one wanted Raids in gw2 and that the devs would eventually make it. Read above it said you asked for the Ultimate Content, however they called it Challenging Group Content which let’s be honest trying to make a new word for Raids without calling it Raids.

 

You also mention remove/ change them. I think Raids need updates and apparently so do you according to the poll in forum, where you are in the camp of Raid have problems but we need better solutions.

 

Couldn’t agree with you more.

 

[Tyson.5160]

“Our fans have been telling us, they wanted the ultimate instanced challenge in guild wars 2” - Colin

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > And yes, people asked about endgame, but asked also about increased challenge, and about shunting that increased challenge off into instanced content

> >

> > The Marionette was a clear example of why the two groups of players shouldn't play together. When enough bad players landed on the platforms, the event failed, when a "hardcore" player couldn't land on the platform they got bored fighting the waves. It didn't work and adding instanced challenging content was one solution, that's why we got the Raid CDI. They've been evolving the ways to give us more challenging content over the years, and sadly none worked. That's why we got instanced Raids, not because people asked for them, it was an evolutionary progress (which in some way went backwards, but there was reason for it)

> >

>

> And this is where Anet made a wrong decision in my opinion. To stay at the side of the casual crowd would have made them unique and would have served as stand alone attribute. I agree with you though that entitled elitism pretty much reared its ugly head then, so much rage from basically the same skrittholes all day about how casuals ruined their day and they now had to try again in an hour or so. Up until then I had no idea what entitled elitism was really all about.

> Add a real conquer and hold your own ground mode for wvw and make people who were yearning for the days of DAOC(justified or not) try their luck with a game that holds the tradition of its precessor and combines it with the probably best feature of Eve online and in my mind you would have a winner with a really loyal fanbase of oldschool gamers with stable income on one hand and the young people looking for a quick entertainment on the other hand. As we stand today, we have the same clone of a game everyone has.

 

I have to agree with you, they really should never have bothered trying to appease the elitist players, and let them scurry back to whatever MMO they came from if they needed Raid like content so badly . In truth it is has only hurt GW2 to be regress back into archaic content that they were originally trying to move away from.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> I did say that for many reasons this didn't work. One of those reasons was that the game was rushed to the release (with many parts of the game in half0finished state, which they've never completely fixed). Another was that they ended up plain unable to follow up with at least parts of their original design. The initial dynamic events were to be just a beginning, and they hoped (or at least seemed to hope) to create a truly evolving, living world. Turns out that they didn't really have the manpower for that, and many people wre not thrilled with the downsized version (and others were too conditioned to expect anything except the "classic MMORPG" stuff).

> A pity, i actually quite liked that original approach.

>

I have to agree with you, I really liked the idea of an evolving world, the change of Lions Arch, the idea that there was a REAL history to the game as opposed to just lore.. but events that took place in the games past.. events that players took a role in and are now.. "history' while I missed it.. I sincerely LOVED that the game had that kind of world to it.

 

I would have loved to have seen more world development, loved to have seen the world grow. Personally dynamic events, world bosses, dynamic leveling, where the game map, where the World was the World, and that was the game, truly set this game apart from other games were the 'maps' were just there to give the illusion of space between the instance based content.

 

Maybe if they let the didn't spend so much time trying to appease the people that needed content that made them feel special from everyone else, the could have truly made a great game.. as opposed to.. well.. Yawn.. Oh look.. another game where raids are the "end game" how.. boringly just like everyone else.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> “Our fans have been telling us, they wanted the ultimate instanced challenge in guild wars 2” - Colin

 

Nobody denied that if you would have read the last pages carefully!

 

"Challenging content" was it all the way. The decision about calling them raids was theirs. Nevertheless it was obvious that challenging content would include more than 5 players because fractals were already in place.

Still, we stay correct: The number of players was chosen by Anet so was the headline called "Raids".

[zealex.9410]

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> Just going to leave this here for those that find the new fractal too difficult (bonus for those also think reaper is useless). I know it does not prove anything obviously but i find it very funny in the context of this discussion.

>

>

>

>

> BTW This a pretty nice guide for those that have issue with learning to dodge the boss AoEs

 

Grenth is idd a dps golem

[Tyson.5160]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

 

> Got any actual proof? Like links of those "whining" about mounts and lack of challenging PVE instances?

 

This is what I was referring to. MADD speaking about proof of people whining about lack of challenging PVE instances. Now whining is very subjective and can misinterpreted. Hence why I entered the conversation.

[Tyson.5160]

 

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

 

> Again, it was a whine about the lack of end game not about the lack of Raids.

 

This is why I’m getting confused. When people are whining about “end game” what are they talking about?

 

Raiding is a huge portion of end game or challenging pve instanced content.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

>

>

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>

> > Again, it was a whine about the lack of end game not about the lack of Raids.

>

> This is why I’m getting confused. When people are whining about “end game” what are they talking about?

>

> Raiding is a huge portion of end game or challenging pve instanced content.

>

>

 

You weren't here at launch, one can tell.

[Genesis.5169]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> >

> >

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> >

> > > Again, it was a whine about the lack of end game not about the lack of Raids.

> >

> > This is why I’m getting confused. When people are whining about “end game” what are they talking about?

> >

> > Raiding is a huge portion of end game or challenging pve instanced content.

> >

> >

>

> You weren't here at launch, one can tell.

 

And at launch there were more people asking for harder meaningful content then people who weren't and thats why we got ascended gear and raids. People tend to forget the past easily.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > >

> > >

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > >

> > > > Again, it was a whine about the lack of end game not about the lack of Raids.

> > >

> > > This is why I’m getting confused. When people are whining about “end game” what are they talking about?

> > >

> > > Raiding is a huge portion of end game or challenging pve instanced content.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You weren't here at launch, one can tell.

>

> And at launch there were more people asking for harder meaningful content then people who weren't and thats why we got ascended gear and raids. People tend to forget the past easily.

 

My point exactly.