Is there a reason for the increasing escalation of mechanics and difficulty of fractals?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> Cherrypicking does neither suit you or maddoctor and takes my post out of context.

>

 

You said people were looking for challenge that is also fun as if it's a bad thing :)

[Torolan.5816]

And if you had read further you would have found out that the favoring of a timed DpS race is just an opinion and not the definition of fun.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> And if you had read further you would have found out that the favoring of a timed DpS race is just an opinion and not the definition of fun.

 

Where is the timed dps race?

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> Cherrypicking does neither suit you or maddoctor and takes my post out of context.

>

> The harder content was already there 5 years ago, Karka were killing people in droves as I wrote. Like it is happening to me since HoT up to PoF, you were the odd man out if you did not like that kind of content. So the argument that GW2 was lacking harder content for years is flawed from the very beginning, it was just not a cookie cutter dps check with a timer you probably consider fun. It did not even lack in challenging instanced content, it is not Anet´s fault that people found ways to exploit their way through Arah, made fractals 50+ with no reasonable goal or were unable to read the attack signs of a karka then. It is their fault that they did not redesign and update these instanced or other hard content though. Doing any lower dungeon was surpemely boring with the stacking method, something Anet should have immediately and with might stopped.

>

> My own take on this situation is that many people with ambitions can not stand to share something with someone they consider not on their level, no matter if they stay anonymous or not. But you will met many such people who are subpar in the open world, it is the nature of mass events. So they instead demanded a playing field only for them and their own kind. And that kind of caving in was inherently wrong in my opinion and cost Anet one of the few standout things they had in the competition with other rather generic MMOs. I am very sure that GW2 is probably just surviving by the lack of competition and a healthy dose of nostalgia now.

>

> You are free to disagree with me of course, and I don´t know for sure if I am right. I know for sure that I am very disappointed and disillusioned how I envisioned GW2 to be and how it is today. It is more of a chatroom, a game for collection hunting and a place to make some wvw for me today, the feeling of excitement Anet awoke into me for the open world has been extinguished by them again for quite some time now and only flares up now and then.

 

I agree with you all the way here.

 

As an old school MMO player that remembers a time before instance based combat, where an MMO was really just a massive game of people all playing in an open world, as opposed to thinking that being with 5 or 10 people in a private instance as "Massive Multiplayer", we worked with hundreds, some in groups, some not.

 

When I came to GW2, it was like.. THIS is what an MMO should have been from the start, a massive world, were we can all play together and support, help and assist each other, it was like this revelation and revitalization of what an MMO should and could be.

 

Then they went and put in raids and a whole focus on Instance based content as an End Game, leaving what made this game unique and captivating to rot away into obscurity.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> Cherrypicking does neither suit you or maddoctor and takes my post out of context.

>

> The harder content was already there 5 years ago, Karka were killing people in droves as I wrote.

 

Seriously, it wasn't hard for most of the players. Of course, lots of players went down same happens at Palawadan/Great Hall or the new bounties now. That doesn't mean it is hard content.

 

>So the argument that GW2 was lacking harder content for years is flawed from the very beginning, it was just not a cookie cutter dps check with a timer you probably consider fun.

 

No, it's not because content that you have replayed like over 100 times - all dungeon paths or several of the still existing fractals - doesn't stay hard. This is for example why I could and still can lead new players through dungeons without a problem although they find it hard today.

 

>It did not even lack in challenging instanced content, it is not Anet´s fault that people found ways to exploit their way through Arah, made fractals 50+ with no reasonable goal or were unable to read the attack signs of a karka then.

 

You are completely wrong here! Regular Arah groups were most often not exploiting. Additionally, we sold runs there and did it legitimate to not even get targeted by Anet staff in the slightest. Although I have ever been too lazy to solo several paths completely alone a friend of mine and me could duo them all (except for inviting 2 players for Tar Elemental). Both of us were able to solo Lupicus on a glass cannon build while groups of 5 in whateverest gear wiped and wiped over and over again.

We also didn't have to exploit 50, I think I'm not even sure if I have ever used any exploit in fractals besides the Mossman stacking and that was after HoT where you have to do it to not get kicked by the casual fractal crowd!

 

>It is their fault that they did not redesign and update these instanced or other hard content though. Doing any lower dungeon was surpemely boring with the stacking method, something Anet should have immediately and with might stopped.

 

Stacking in corners was only present until some balance patch, after that it was better to just run to the boss, freeze and kill it. Only bad pugs, roughly 6 months behind the actual meta were and still doing this although they have no clue why they do it.

 

> My own take on this situation is that many people with ambitions can not stand to share something with someone they consider not on their level, no matter if they stay anonymous or not. But you will met many such people who are subpar in the open world, it is the nature of mass events. So they instead demanded a playing field only for them and their own kind. And that kind of caving in was inherently wrong in my opinion and cost Anet one of the few standout things they had in the competition with other rather generic MMOs. I am very sure that GW2 is probably just surviving by the lack of competition and a healthy dose of nostalgia now.

 

I don't think this is how it works. Hell yeah, Arah was tough and fun in 2013 with my necromancer in rabid gear from Twilight Arbor and staff usage for the first 10-20 runs. But after getting used to the game and increasing in skill I haven't missed that any longer. Before the updates to fractals and raids I made several breaks because there was literally nothing to do that made fun.

 

As for open world: We have regular updates every 2-3 months. Better time schedule than ever before with 1 whole map every release. The last raid update was 10 months ago. Fractals were updated July 25 with Shattered Observatory and 5 months later with Twilight Oasis. Both with being present in every tier! So, not at all there's a shift to hard (instanced content) as there has been a pure open world expansion with 4 maps in between.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> The harder content was already there 5 years ago, Karka were killing people in droves as I wrote. Like it is happening to me since HoT up to PoF, you were the odd man out if you did not like that kind of content. So the argument that GW2 was lacking harder content for years is flawed from the very beginning, it was just not a cookie cutter dps check with a timer you probably consider fun. It did not even lack in challenging instanced content, it is not Anet´s fault that people found ways to exploit their way through Arah, made fractals 50+ with no reasonable goal or were unable to read the attack signs of a karka then. It is their fault that they did not redesign and update these instanced or other hard content though. Doing any lower dungeon was surpemely boring with the stacking method, something Anet should have immediately and with might stopped.

 

Open world is extremely tricky to make into a good high-end content and karka wasn't one. The problem is scaling. It's quite swingy and you more often than not end up with something that can either be zerged down with no challenge at all (which is all the world bosses) or something that you stand no chance at all if you don't have a party (which is a common complaint about HoT). Neither is particularly fun, hence the need of instanced content.

 

And here's the problem with Arah - it's not particularly fun either. Throngs of undead condi-spamming you 24/7. It has certain entertainment value, but for me it's rather about the lore or the change of pace than anything else. It's actually quite hard to put my finger on the specific features which make content fun or not. Challenge is part of it, and so is variety. The new bosses just have a lot more identity. They offer unique mechanics and attacks that more often than not are unlike anything you've seen in the game. This was all missing before. Like you said, it's not just about challenge, it has to be fun too. Because it's a game and that's the point of playing it.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Not sure if this helps or hinders your point.

>

> My point is that there is still no proof in there :)

>

> Thread 1: nothing about Raids

> Thread 2: nothing about Raids

> Thread 3: nothing about Raids

> Thread 4: discussing how to make an open world encounter raid-like with roles, nothing about Raids

> Thread 5: Weird long post, nothing about Raids

> Thread 6: Again, open world bosses in instanced version, nothing about Raids

> Thread 7: Complaining about grind... nothing about Raids

> Thread 8: Tells us that we already have Raids (who knew?)

> Thread 9: nothing about Raids

> Thread 10: Now this one asks for harder content, one post, no replies. Real nagging there!

>

> Did you just search the archive for the word Raid and posted all the threads you could find? Because none of the above tell us anything.

 

Fair enough, but would it matter really if I find the post on the forums anyways, will that be the downfall to the argument. I will find a post complaining about it it’s there, but in the end does it matter?

[Torolan.5816]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"Torolan.5816" said:

> > Cherrypicking does neither suit you or maddoctor and takes my post out of context.

> >

> > The harder content was already there 5 years ago, Karka were killing people in droves as I wrote.

>

> Seriously, it wasn't hard for most of the players. Of course, lots of players went down same happens at Palawadan/Great Hall or the new bounties now. That doesn't mean it is hard content.

>

> >So the argument that GW2 was lacking harder content for years is flawed from the very beginning, it was just not a cookie cutter dps check with a timer you probably consider fun.

>

> No, it's not because content that you have replayed like over 100 times - all dungeon paths or several of the still existing fractals - doesn't stay hard. This is for example why I could and still can lead new players through dungeons without a problem although they find it hard today.

>

> >It did not even lack in challenging instanced content, it is not Anet´s fault that people found ways to exploit their way through Arah, made fractals 50+ with no reasonable goal or were unable to read the attack signs of a karka then.

>

> You are completely wrong here! Regular Arah groups were most often not exploiting. Additionally, we sold runs there and did it legitimate to not even get targeted by Anet staff in the slightest. Although I have ever been too lazy to solo several paths completely alone a friend of mine and me could duo them all (except for inviting 2 players for Tar Elemental). Both of us were able to solo Lupicus on a glass cannon build while groups of 5 in whateverest gear wiped and wiped over and over again.

> We also didn't have to exploit 50, I think I'm not even sure if I have ever used any exploit in fractals besides the Mossman stacking and that was after HoT where you have to do it to not get kicked by the casual fractal crowd!

>

> >It is their fault that they did not redesign and update these instanced or other hard content though. Doing any lower dungeon was surpemely boring with the stacking method, something Anet should have immediately and with might stopped.

>

> Stacking in corners was only present until some balance patch, after that it was better to just run to the boss, freeze and kill it. Only bad pugs, roughly 6 months behind the actual meta were and still doing this although they have no clue why they do it.

>

> > My own take on this situation is that many people with ambitions can not stand to share something with someone they consider not on their level, no matter if they stay anonymous or not. But you will met many such people who are subpar in the open world, it is the nature of mass events. So they instead demanded a playing field only for them and their own kind. And that kind of caving in was inherently wrong in my opinion and cost Anet one of the few standout things they had in the competition with other rather generic MMOs. I am very sure that GW2 is probably just surviving by the lack of competition and a healthy dose of nostalgia now.

>

> I don't think this is how it works. Hell yeah, Arah was tough and fun in 2013 with my necromancer in rabid gear from Twilight Arbor and staff usage for the first 10-20 runs. But after getting used to the game and increasing in skill I haven't missed that any longer. Before the updates to fractals and raids I made several breaks because there was literally nothing to do that made fun.

>

> As for open world: We have regular updates every 2-3 months. Better time schedule than ever before with 1 whole map every release. The last raid update was 10 months ago. Fractals were updated July 25 with Shattered Observatory and 5 months later with Twilight Oasis. Both with being present in every tier! So, not at all there's a shift to hard (instanced content) as there has been a pure open world expansion with 4 maps in between.

 

*Maybe you will remember the introduction phase of raids on the forum here. You have old content to run was an argument raiders used very often then. By your own definition, old content is not only old but also outdated and hardly worth a mention in the campaigns for the games ressources. Both sides, raiders and nonraiders, were starting from scratch again.

*Karka queen was hard content because people were not prepared for it at first, the same with Tequatl. When I see 40+ people die from a single roll and maybe 5 survive, I see a hard content. That it is not a content that fans of kill through DpS and the use of certain builds and the memorization of some mechanics to beat a timer like does not make it softer. It makes it more accessible. And yes, people have done raids with 5 man only and in green so that is not hard content for them but that surely is not the majority and adds evidence to my assumption that fans of harder instanced content before all other reasons seek playgrounds where they can be among themselves.

*Maybe you will also remember how the fractallevel was lowered to 30 for everyone and how massive the outrage then was. People who by then had defeated lvl 51+ felt betrayed for something they should have never had from the beginning.

*I was counting things, not suggesting that fractals were exploited. Arah was exploited and sold, also by people I know personally. There is a reason why I miss an Arah path to get a dungeoneer title, I refused to buy it and did not have the desire to run it.

*I am usually a live and let live guy. But the introduction of raids basically made this game less unique. Of course I can´t reverse that and argue against you when you say that living world is still there, but I don´t have to be ok with that and yearn for the days when it was not trying to be like any other game.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> Fair enough, but would it matter really if I find the post on the forums anyways, will that be the downfall to the argument. I will find a post complaining about it it’s there, but in the end does it matter?

 

I'm not the one basing my entire argument behind "Raiders whined on the forums about Raids and that's why they implemented Raids"

For this to be true, there needs to be more than enough threads similar to the Mount RNG one to base that somehow Arenanet based their decision to add Raids on "forum whining". For me, and I guess a lot others it doesn't matter at all, but it's some of the vocal anti-raid minority on these boards that seems to matter to.

[zealex.9410]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Not sure if this helps or hinders your point.

>

> My point is that there is still no proof in there :)

>

> Thread 1: nothing about Raids

> Thread 2: nothing about Raids

> Thread 3: nothing about Raids

> Thread 4: discussing how to make an open world encounter raid-like with roles, nothing about Raids

> Thread 5: Weird long post, nothing about Raids

> Thread 6: Again, open world bosses in instanced version, nothing about Raids

> Thread 7: Complaining about grind... nothing about Raids

> Thread 8: Tells us that we already have Raids (who knew?)

> Thread 9: nothing about Raids

> Thread 10: Now this one asks for harder content, one post, no replies. Real nagging there!

>

> Did you just search the archive for the word Raid and posted all the threads you could find? Because none of the above tell us anything.

 

Every suggestion about world bosses with raid difficulty or open world bosses as instanced content couldnt be better implemented than what we have here today with raids. Ppl might not have called them "raids" but thats very much so what every one asks when talking about massive bosses with a playerbase bigfer than 5 ppl.

[Tyson.5160]

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Should-think-about-adding-raid-harder-more-advanced-dungeons

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Issues-people-skirt-over

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/This-game-needs-harder-Content

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Suggestion-Raids-in-a-GW2-Context

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Suggestion-Give-us-something-to-do

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Where-did-all-the-players-go

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/What-does-your-GW-2-Wish-List-look-like

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/What-about-Mid-size-instanced-group-play

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Need-legendaries-to-be-legendary

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Top-questionable-decision-Anet-have-made

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/What-I-would-like-to-see-in-gw2-or-hot

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/What-I-would-like-to-see-in-gw2-or-hot

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Would-You-Like-10-Man-Raids-Poll

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Does-anyone-actually-want-a-Season-3

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Watching-until-the-end-of-2015

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding

 

From before Heart of a Thorns release to season 2

[Tyson.5160]

Now I’m not taking a side, but people were complaining about no end game content and raids etc. I remember reading the threads during the time as well. My thought is how do we come together and grow the fractal and raid community? Can’t we try to crunch ideas for that rather going at each other’s throats?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> From before Heart of a Thorns release to season 2

 

Thread 1: didn't even get replies, he is asking for something to do, nothing to do with Raids.

Thread 2: Nothing about Raids, he is just asking: "Will there be new instanced content (raid type?) doubtful"

Thread 3: Nothing about Raids, asking for Hard Mode similar to GW1 because he wants harder content

Thread 4: Nothing about Raids, just one page of a thread, discusses how to expand Triple Trouble and call it GW2 Raids

Thread 5: Nothing about Raids

Thread 6: Nothing about Raids. "Outside of guild raids and GvG I’m playing some other game until the expansion is out." is the only part that has the word "Raid"

Thread 7: Congratulations! One poster said: "4. 10+man raids" on his wish list. Nobody even responded, thread is not even 2 pages long. But at least we got one post that actually asks for it! Hardly "whining or begging for Raids" though

Thread 8: Nothing about Raids (talking about instanced content they can do with more than 5 players)

Thread 9: Nothing about Raids

Thread 10: Nothing about Raids (Only this: "I mean the 4 hr doa raids in their prime.")

Thread 11: Nothing about Raids

Thread 12: posted twice, still Nothing about Raids

Thread 13: Congratulations another thread talking about Raids, only this time he wants a 10-man version of the dungeons! Honestly, where would 10 players in some of them? That would be a mess

Thread 14: Nothing about Raids

Thread 15: Nothing about Raids

Thread 16: Unlike the above, this is an actual Raid thread, you'd think that a CDI on Raids would've happened after the whining though. Also this is a thread full of feedback where players could post how they'd like Raids to look like. I think I posted there too. Hint: I don't like how Raids appeared in the game, I had a completely vision for them

 

None of the above asked for Raids directly, the developer asking for Raids isn't the same as the "hardcore players whining about Raids". So even after 25 threads you haven't posted ONE thread that contains whining by the hardcore people to add Raids. And now this is getting rather tiring having to actually read all those threads, I think I did more than enough to discredit the "hardcore whining" argument and a big thank you to you for helping me out.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > From before Heart of a Thorns release to season 2

>

> Thread 1: didn't even get replies, he is asking for something to do, nothing to do with Raids.

> Thread 2: Nothing about Raids, he is just asking: "Will there be new instanced content (raid type?) doubtful"

> Thread 3: Nothing about Raids, asking for Hard Mode similar to GW1 because he wants harder content

> Thread 4: Nothing about Raids, just one page of a thread, discusses how to expand Triple Trouble and call it GW2 Raids

> Thread 5: Nothing about Raids

> Thread 6: Nothing about Raids. "Outside of guild raids and GvG I’m playing some other game until the expansion is out." is the only part that has the word "Raid"

> Thread 7: Congratulations! One poster said: "4. 10+man raids" on his wish list. Nobody even responded, thread is not even 2 pages long. But at least we got one post that actually asks for it! Hardly "whining or begging for Raids" though

> Thread 8: Nothing about Raids (talking about instanced content they can do with more than 5 players)

> Thread 9: Nothing about Raids

> Thread 10: Nothing about Raids (Only this: "I mean the 4 hr doa raids in their prime.")

> Thread 11: Nothing about Raids

> Thread 12: posted twice, still Nothing about Raids

> Thread 13: Congratulations another thread talking about Raids, only this time he wants a 10-man version of the dungeons! Honestly, where would 10 players in some of them? That would be a mess

> Thread 14: Nothing about Raids

> Thread 15: Nothing about Raids

> Thread 16: Unlike the above, this is an actual Raid thread, you'd think that a CDI on Raids would've happened after the whining though. Also this is a thread full of feedback where players could post how they'd like Raids to look like. I think I posted there too. Hint: I don't like how Raids appeared in the game, I had a completely vision for them

>

> None of the above asked for Raids directly, the developer asking for Raids isn't the same as the "hardcore players whining about Raids". So even after 25 threads you haven't posted ONE thread that contains whining by the hardcore people to add Raids. And now this is getting rather tiring having to actually read all those threads, I think I did more than enough to discredit the "hardcore whining" argument and a big thank you to you for helping me out.

 

Fine MADD I give up. Happy?

 

[Tyson.5160]

How about working together rather then drawing lines in the sand?

[Tyson.5160]

Clearly this game mode isn’t perfect, so why don’t we all work together to improve it and grow the community?

[Chris McSwag.4683]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> Clearly this game mode isn’t perfect, so why don’t we all work together to improve it and grow the community?

 

No game mode is perfect, and I'd argue there is no alteration that will fit everyone - as made evident by the multitude of threads of very different opinion.

I'd also argue that spamming statements as raids where the result of years of whining, that they destroyed the game or similar statements without any supporting evidence by a very loud and angry minority is not the way to improve it, but i honestly dont think any people in this minority is interested in that. They seem more interested in the whining itself, and dont care if they are right or wrong.

[Sykper.6583]

The issue is similar to the reasons why implementing better rewards for SPvP, didn't exactly help out the SPvP popularity by bringing in more PvPers. What happened was more "PvEers" joined PvP for the loot, hurting the innate population that rolled into matches with players who clearly didn't understand builds or how to play the mode in general.

 

You are right, Raiding right now isn't perfect but not for the lack of popularity. **It's not meant to be for everyone** but _everyone who is willing can attempt it rather easily._ You need to have time, patience, and the capability to work with other players and play your class effectively. Creating an infantile mode doesn't add more raiders, it adds general PvEers who aren't in it for the challenge and wastes development time for the intended audience.

[Sykper.6583]

As someone interested in Raiding, raid content needs to come out more frequently above all else. And it needs to continue the pursuit of challenge from the intended audience, Hall of Chains was very good for this but until they start churning out a new Raid Wing every couple months at a consistent pace Raiding is still in a bit of a stalemate.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Sykper.6583" said:

> The issue is similar to the reasons why implementing better rewards for SPvP, didn't exactly help out the SPvP popularity by bringing in more PvPers. What happened was more "PvEers" joined PvP for the loot, hurting the innate population that rolled into matches with players who clearly didn't understand builds or how to play the mode in general.

>

> You are right, Raiding right now isn't perfect but not for the lack of popularity. **It's not meant to be for everyone** but _everyone who is willing can attempt it rather easily._ You need to have time, patience, and the capability to work with other players and play your class effectively. Creating an infantile mode doesn't add more raiders, it adds general PvEers who aren't in it for the challenge and wastes development time for the intended audience.

 

I was one of these players that joined for the pvp Legendary armor and I’m glad I did as I played the game mode more and have a far greater appreciation for the mode. Mind you, I can only speak for myself.

[Tyson.5160]

As I already posted, I am extremely willing and have done a handful of Raids, however due to my schedule, I can’t get into raid training etc. and have to resort to pugging which hit and miss in its own.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Sykper.6583" said:

> The issue is similar to the reasons why implementing better rewards for SPvP, didn't exactly help out the SPvP popularity by bringing in more PvPers. What happened was more "PvEers" joined PvP for the loot, hurting the innate population that rolled into matches with players who clearly didn't understand builds or how to play the mode in general.

>

> You are right, Raiding right now isn't perfect but not for the lack of popularity. **It's not meant to be for everyone** but _everyone who is willing can attempt it rather easily._ You need to have time, patience, and the capability to work with other players and play your class effectively. Creating an infantile mode doesn't add more raiders, it adds general PvEers who aren't in it for the challenge and wastes development time for the intended audience.

 

What do you suggest to bring more players into this mode?

[Sykper.6583]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> What do you suggest to bring more players into this mode?

 

There's a couple of items, but right now I don't think Raiding is solidified yet for content drops. Why even consider making content more accessible when raid content isn't even rolling out on a consistent basis yet?

 

Next I would presume would be providing incentives outside of decorations for guilds to foster raiding environments for more people. Let's be honest, Guild Content in general has been just dreadful, no new missions for years. Decorations for the guild halls aren't enough to get a guild to recruit new players, there needs to be a tangible reward for the individual and members of the guild to mutually share in if people work together.

 

As a general thought, why not make those Guild Decoration Tokens able to be turned in for something like raw materials or flat gold for the person who turned it in, and/or it contributes currency to the guild that can allow everyone as a part of the guild to profit from? I think if Guilds had more of a economic effect we would see guilds recruit for raiding more, and perhaps a positive uptick in raid attendance as a whole? Also, this does not have to specifically apply to raids either we can have something similar apply to other content.

 

Finally, we can consider the possibility that time is a factor. While Vale Guardian might still be a fairly intimidating opponent, as more Elite Specs and builds come about and the toolkits Raiders can use broaden, the content does become easier as a whole. That's probably not an acceptable answer for something we can do right now but it is something to consider down the road.

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Sykper.6583" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> >

>

> There's a couple of items, but right now I don't think Raiding is solidified yet for content drops. Why even consider making content more accessible when raid content isn't even rolling out on a consistent basis yet?

 

I hate to admit it, but your probably right and perhaps after a few raid drops later we may have some changes. Even if they developed tools that would make it easier for parties to get together. I may just have to put Raiding on the back burner and concentrate on other parts of the game, where my time investment is more evident.

 

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Sykper.6583" said:

> > The issue is similar to the reasons why implementing better rewards for SPvP, didn't exactly help out the SPvP popularity by bringing in more PvPers. What happened was more "PvEers" joined PvP for the loot, hurting the innate population that rolled into matches with players who clearly didn't understand builds or how to play the mode in general.

> >

> > You are right, Raiding right now isn't perfect but not for the lack of popularity. **It's not meant to be for everyone** but _everyone who is willing can attempt it rather easily._ You need to have time, patience, and the capability to work with other players and play your class effectively. Creating an infantile mode doesn't add more raiders, it adds general PvEers who aren't in it for the challenge and wastes development time for the intended audience.

>

> What do you suggest to bring more players into this mode?

 

Raids are common among all other MMO's and thus not a sale point or an attraction for GW2, given other MMO's have set them up much better.., thus if people who play GW2/MMO's wanted to raid, there are no shortage of other MMO's that can offer them a better Raid experience. Putting Raids into GW2 made it more a WoW Clone then it's own unique MMO, which is not an improvement by any standard.

 

As such I don't see any advantage of trying to get people to do content that makes your game feel like everyone else's game.. seems counterproductive to me.