matthirten.6475 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 My personal opinion is that the classes individually should be nerfed, rather than conditions be blanket nerfed or staying the same. That being said, I will try to keep the class breakdown portion as possible so that you may form your own opinions. Just for reference, the three classes I play the most are Scourge, Renegade, and Firebrand. **PROFESSIONS** ||Guardian|| _Support_ >! All guardians have decent group condi removal and heals. Vanilla guard good heals and lots of stability to counteract crowd control conditions. Firebrand can pump out tons of heals, cleanse lots of conditions, and pulse out some resistance. _Power_ >! There is also meditrapper dragon hunter which is power and does decently at roaming. _Condi_ >! Burn guard and burn firebrand do decent DPS but can be relatively easy to cleanse as they only apply a few types of conditions for the most part. Also, they tend to be fairly bursty, with cooldowns playing a large part of their gameplay. ||Revenant|| _Support_ >! Ventari healer (Herald) is fairly strong in groups. It provides large amounts of healing and boons while also providing lots of toughness in addition to condi cleanse. Frontline sustain Herald is pretty good since it provides the utility and heal. Mallyx heals more per condi and also provides lots of group and self resistance. Overall very strong condition defense. _Power_ >! Hammer revenant is in a pretty good place at the moment. It does high damage while still providing good defense and utility. _Condi_ >! Herald Frontline Condi is not bad, but scourge is simply better at the moment, leaving very little people playing it. Renegade stance with conditions can be fun but the summons get destroyed in nano seconds, Renegade probably needs a buff or a rework before it becomes decently viable. ||Warrior|| _Support_ >! There is still vanilla warrior with banners but overally warrior wasn't designed with group support in mind. It can give itself damage reduction and resistance but only in short bursts with solid cooldowns. Great boon rip though. _Power_ >! Power spellbreaker is in a good spot. Due to heavy armor and high health pool, warrior is free to equip what would be considered glass cannon on another class. _Condi_ >! Warrior doesn't have bad condi damage but except for maybe a couple of roamer builds, it's simply outshined. ||Ranger|| _Support_ >!Druid is obviously the support spec for Rangers. Druid has solid heals but is not extremely potent in continuous condition removal, which makes it hard to be in the meta. Soulbeast is decent at sustain with a little group support, but compared to other frontliners Ranger is less durable and has less to offer in terms of support. _Power_ >!Power Rangers have been a dying breed with the rise of condi classes. They basically have to drop in and out of stealth nonstop to avoid being destroyed by some of the other roaming classes. _Condi_ >!Same thing as power basically. Rangers are just struggling in this meta. ||Engineer|| _Support_ >!Frontline Scrapper has kind of died since it's strength was blocking and there is so many unblockable skills nowadays. Holosmith is virtually never a support class. _Power_ >!Solid damage in both roaming and in larger groups. Unfortunately it doesn't have amazing defenses against condition pressure. _Condi_ >!Engineer was given a few more condition options but it is still greatly weaker than some of the other classes. ||Thief|| _Support_ >!Can offer a bit of support through poisons and also through stealth application Thief serves as a good scout and roamer. _Power_ >!Good DPS in both zerg and small settings, but weak to conditions unless they give up DPS for condi removal. _Condi_ >!Not bad condi damage, but very outshined by some other classes, and is very susceptible to it themselves. ||Mesmer|| _Support_ >!Provides tons of boons with long durations to the group in addition to heals. Unfortunately a lot of these boons are randomized making it somewhat unreliable. The utility value of veil, alacrity, and portal are extraordinarily strong however. _Power_ >!There have been successful power shatter roamers in PoF. Mesmer seems to be in a good spot where it is not OP but not super weak _Condi_ Mesmers have solid conditions from both of their elite specs. They aren't amazing dps in zergs but make good roamers. ||Necromancer|| _Support_ >!Barrier is a strong mechanic if used properly. Scourge provides strong barriers even with little to no healing power. All specs of necromancers have solid amounts of combo fields and finishers. _Power_ >!Power reaper is good burst but tapers off relatively quickly. Wells can be strong DPS but in order to achieve high damage, you must lose a lot of vitality and toughness to maximize their damage. _Condi_ >!Scourge is easily the meta definer. If you ask me, one of the ways they could be balanced is to make the shades at least somewhat similar to renegade summons in that they can be killed. Unlike well necro, you only need to place a shade before the enemy is there, and then you can burst if they walk over it, or just place it elsewhere. This versatility is one of their greatest strengths. I think that Arena Net had the right idea of making a lot of the scourge tools turn things into torment in cripple, BUT they still apply a lot of weak condis that eat up the enemy condi removal. I think Scourge shades might need a nerf in order to give them a higher risk for the great reward shades can give once placed right. ||Elementalists| _Support_ >!Possibly the best condition removal in the game. They can apply a shit ton of auras, regen, and healing in order to keep a zerg alive and well. Great support class. _Power_ >!Weaver can achieve extremely high damage, but is also an extreme glass cannon. A good example or risk vs reward. Overall a couple condis can melt a backline weaver or ele fairly quickly and safely so it's not in an amazing spot at the moment. _Condi_ >! Condi weaver or tempest is not too amazing. It has some fringe use for roaming but their low health pool and armor requires them to take many defensive traits. **SUMMARY** >! Different classes shine at different things. >! That being said, although conditions are very strong for some classes, they are very weak for other classes. A blanket condition nerf might kill off the remaining hope for some condition fun in very weak builds. I'm sure you all have seen renegade summons and thought it was very badass. For most professions conditions simply aren't OP. I think the issue is the risk vs reward thing I mentioned earlier. The problem with Scourge is not necessarily its sheer power, but it's ability to place a shade, realize it's in the wrong spot, and place another instantly with virtually no loss of lifeforce or anything. On the other hand, Renegade like I play has cooldowns in addition to the fact that your summons can be killed. In order to deal any damage, you need to be smart with your summon placement. Blanket nerfs don't really solve all the issues as conditions are not only weak in many professions, but often provide the little dps that support classes have. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME!!!! Please respond with additional thoughts or comments as I'd love to have a discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 I don't understand what your point was with providing short summaries of nearly every type of build in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthirten.6475 Posted December 5, 2017 Author Share Posted December 5, 2017 > @OriOri.8724 said: > I don't understand what your point was with providing short summaries of nearly every type of build in the game. Help people better understand other professions they may not be familiar with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GottFaust.5297 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Condi is fine. When people say "condi" they mean "scourge". No one complains about shortbow renegades or frontline heralds. No one complains about burnbrands. No one complains about condi-mirages. Firebrand is a hard counter to scourge. A single firebrand brings more than enough condition clear to keep his/her group completely safe from 3-4 scourges by themselves, and can strongly mitigate the condi output of entire enemy raids. Furthermore: every single class has at least one tree that or utility line that focuses directly on condi mitigation. People need to realize that since now condi is a thing: maybe they should counter it rather than just complaining on the forums and yelling for nerfs. The state of condi is fine. People just need to learn and bring the counters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmageddonAsh.6430 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 > @matthirten.6475 said: > > @OriOri.8724 said: > > I don't understand what your point was with providing short summaries of nearly every type of build in the game. > > Help people better understand other professions they may not be familiar with But for quite a few you are just wrong. Remember, this game isnt just about groups and blobs. Solo condition counters need to be taken into account as well and in that case, VERY few classes have the ability to actually counter the mindless continuously spamming of conditions over and over again. Application is a 10 and removals is like a -3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmageddonAsh.6430 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 > @GottFaust.5297 said: > Condi is fine. > When people say "condi" they mean "scourge". > No one complains about shortbow renegades or frontline heralds. > No one complains about burnbrands. > No one complains about condi-mirages. > > Firebrand is a hard counter to scourge. A single firebrand brings more than enough condition clear to keep his/her group completely safe from 3-4 scourges by themselves, and can strongly mitigate the condi output of entire enemy raids. Furthermore: every single class has at least one tree that or utility line that focuses directly on condi mitigation. People need to realize that since now condi is a thing: maybe they should counter it rather than just complaining on the forums and yelling for nerfs. > > The state of condi is fine. People just need to learn and bring the counters. Again, this is wrong. I owuld take facing a scourge over ANY other condi (except Renegade, they just suck) over the likes of Condi Thief, Mesmer, Engineer, Ranger and others because Scourge can be CC spammed, can be countered by stealth and mobility and a reasonable amount of condition removal. The others you can be melted with ease, chased dowbn easily, spiked from range. Spiked from melee. All have better defense abilities and so on. People dont complain about Renegade because they are dreadful. No damage, limited conditions and short bow is bugged to hell and does rubbish damage. The other builds people DO complain about, but build and class mean NOTHING when zerging most of the time, just bring AoE and ranged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeknar.6184 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 > @GottFaust.5297 said: > No one complains about condi-mirages. Oh they do... Principally in the PvP Subforum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPanda.1872 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 I don't have problem with high damaging condi specs like firebrand burn zerkers and etc since they don't spam condi as fast and can be generally easy to avoid or cleanse. What I have issue is with the ridiculous quantity of condi some specs can apply and reapply at a short amount of time - condi mesmer, scourge and condi thieves are great examples of them. If you can constantly apply 4-7 condi with high damage and soft CC condis in a short burst every few seconds, it's broken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 > @GottFaust.5297 said: > The state of condi is fine. People just need to learn and bring the counters. Condition combat is not fun no matter how many counters you bring or how well you do with it, for that matter neither is the one shot skills on the other side. Balance has gotten ridiculous either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 I will go for 5th Revamp how conditions and boons actually works in gw2. Gw2 damage design is questionable to begin with. We have * Direct damage * Dot damage (Condition) * Debuff (Conditions) * Cleanse (Anti-conditions) * Food (Anti-Conditions and Direct Damage) * Buff (Boons; Anti-Conditions) A lot of people might find it hard to realise what I am showing here. The thing that conditions damage are boosted sky high is because of cleanse and counter boons. They consider that as balance. The end result of this balance is it boosted conditions in PvE unnecessary and instead of realizing that, there are times where anet nerfed conditions exactly due to PvE which end up affecting other areas. So, anet accept a foolish suggestion, separate pvp from pve, which itself isn't really fixing any problems and instead running from it. What anet really need to do is just separate dot damage and put it in its on unique category, then make dot damage irremovable while having the same modifiers of direct damage. When you do just that, you can easily balance between direct and dot damage. However, this approach is no longer possible, anet already decided to go on the cleanse route, this changes will make a lot classes questionable. In other words, what we have now is not gonna change. RIP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xillllix.3485 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 They need to bring back the condi cap and set it at 20 stacks total. That's it, gameplay fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 > @Xillllix.3485 said: > They need to bring back the condi cap and set it at 20 stacks total. That's it, gameplay fixed. So what is the cap on power damage going to sit at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlySynz.3471 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 The problem is resistance doesn't need buffing. 100% condition immunity can be maintained as is, even with all the boon corrupts flying around. There are 2 problems with WvW and conditions, and 2 problems only: 1. 100% condition immunity can be maintained (yet we don't see the possibility of 100% physical immunity uptime). This either needs to go or change resistance to reduce incoming condition damage. 2. Players refusal to get onto classes that can easily deal with other classes running condition builds (even tanky ones) We have no means to out-heal through several players lighting someone up with physical damage, so why are we trying to find a way to kneecap condition classes to either out-heal or out-cleanse what they're throwing at you? If one player is killing you via conditions, that's a player problem. If you are being lit up with several condition classes at once, you're dead regardless, don't expect to out heal or cleanse that. But be thankful you can indeed be protected with 100% condition immunity via resistance. Players need to understand this is WvW, so if one refuses to bring a class capable of dealing with condition dealers, then make sure there are others in your raid/group that can do so. If players simply refuse to do that, insist on getting on melee and running around pressing 1 all day, then expect to get beat. A simple zerker spec'd ranger is easily capable of dealing with other condition classes, even condition spec ranger. What a zerker spec'd ranger isn't capable of dealing with is a tanky melee running at them. So then by that definition, shouldn't tanky melee be nerfed into the ground so zerk ranged classes aren't powerless against them? Think about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProverbsofHell.2307 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Can you please explain how you can achieve 100% resistance uptime? Please show me the classes and skills and gear which allows this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxanne.6140 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Pls show video of single player condi bombing your non-zerker character in 2 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPanda.1872 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 > @ProverbsofHell.2307 said: > Can you please explain how you can achieve 100% resistance uptime? Please show me the classes and skills and gear which allows this. With rev you kind of can if your allies have condis. But you'd be spamming your charges and do nothing else. And it frequently gets strips anyways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPanda.1872 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 > @Roxanne.6140 said: > Pls show video of single player condi bombing your non-zerker character in 2 seconds. I was once burst by 2 condi mesmers with 14 confusions and billions of other condi. I panicked spammed by cleanse and heal skills. Confusion killed me pretty much immediately for playing at 300 ping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Condi are not fine. * They should be affected by precision ( which will allow them to do full damage on dot crit, as to be nerfed by debuffs like weakness ) and ferocity. * Main Condi Set will be CONDI ( primary ) PRECISION + FEROCITY ( secondary ), and will deal dmg equal to a full power zerk build. * Hybrid sets like dire will deal almost the same damage of a power build with soldier gear. * Expertise should be removed as any other % condi duration ( also % condi reduction stuff ). This will provvide a higher dps in less seconds, and more burst ( if wearing condizerk equipment ). * They should have a Base stat ( vitality ) in order to have an initial high percentage of dmg reduction as toughness does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPanda.1872 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Condi should not ignore toughness. Too bad that'll break pve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 > @ThunderPanda.1872 said: > Condi should not ignore toughness. > > Too bad that'll break pve Toughness shouldn't do 2 things at once. I know that vitality also incrases health pool, but imho it's better to have a % against condition from vitality than toughness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inoki.6048 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 All this talk is nice and all, appreciated, but do you, or have you seen the company do anything about conditions for the past............ very long time, apart from buffing them for PVE, which is the only game mode that sustains this game because people love to pay for pixels that have no real world value? Given the countless evidence on the president of this company do you honestly still have any glimpse of hope that something will be balanced here? Let's be realistic - not pessimistic, not sceptical - realistic, nothing is going to get balanced. It hasn't in years, what makes anyone here believe something will improve? This game is not based on skill, it's filled with gimmicks so that people with sub-zero skill can score. "COME TO GUILD WARS WHERE EVERYONE IS A WINNER!" It's a casino with all the slot machines programmed for a higher probability so that everyone gets to win, especially those who don't want to think and just run the cheesiest of builds to spam 1 - 3 buttons. That is our problem. And it's time to forget this game and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPanda.1872 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 > @Inoki.6048 said: > That is our problem. And it's time to forget this game and move on. Wait. Why are you still here? Your heart says no, your body says yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inoki.6048 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 > @ThunderPanda.1872 said: > > @Inoki.6048 said: > > That is our problem. And it's time to forget this game and move on. > > Wait. Why are you still here? Your heart says no, your body says yes Same as many other players = the people you meet. In the end it's all about the people and the connections you make. If all of my friends agree on e.g. "let's move to ESO" I'll ditch this game in a heart beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Buff condition removal is a stupid solution to start with its just ignoring how conditions are a mess in termsof a damage mechanic. Another issue is the class design in this game that is not so good is if pay atention to some details, necromancer is a good example of that... The conditions mess is due how ANet want the game to be easy for players and wanted to be easy for them to balance the game towards PVE as well, being them good players or badies, to be an offensivelly easy game with lots of low effort cause that is what gw2 was ment for, and readon ANet keep ENFORCING lame and spamable combat. Conditions on GW2 were also ment to carry the same pressure effects of conditions and hexes when casted on targets, wich is a slacker way to code them. The fact that conditions look OP on some builds or classes does not means conditions are OP, the issue is the stacking to create the low effort floor, while Anet keep alowing burst condis builds due condis are ment to work in FAVOUR of PVE ONLY. The right thing to do is NOT TO NERF condition as a whole either, but its hard to make it work cause ANet does not want to fix that as well. Limit the stack of contitions individually, and reduce some skills condis stacks as well. Make some necro and mesmer skills as hexes with health degen and some effects meanwhile add hex converts and removers to the game. (wells could be hexes again) Convert confusion to a hex skill1 -> https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Confusion Remove torment from the game, for now OR make it an Hex effect. Limit some conditions to some classes or type of weapon, and reduce the stacks to start with on the autos atacks on some if needed. Change necromancer auto atacks to be less spammy and have better effect rather than be used to spam condis mostly and more knowledge on gameplay -For ex: -specter necro auto to be https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Deathly_Swarm that has x% damage boost or vampiric health syphon boost ignoring armor when hitting chilled fows, rather than spam bleeds.. P.S:. Problem with balance on this game is due it is a mmo towards PVE players only... that is the crime here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coglin.1496 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Nerfing professions is not the way to go. Nerfing specific builds is though. More so specific skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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