Istan has destroyed the games economy - nerf inc?

[Rauderi.8706]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> It's not Istan.

 

This. The market's been in a tumble since PoF launched. A mix of new players plus ANet being rather generous with distribution of basic materials has put the whole thing into a gluttonous slump.

 

 

[Pifil.5193]

> @"Rauderi.8706" said:

> > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > It's not Istan.

>

> This. The market's been in a tumble since PoF launched. A mix of new players plus ANet being rather generous with distribution of basic materials has put the whole thing into a gluttonous slump.

 

Yep, this is a continuation of the process that began with PoF.

 

I personally don't mind, cheaper materials means crafting costs less. Means I can craft more and as crafting (ascended especially) is a large part of the end game for GW2 it's all good for me.

[TheGrimm.5624]

This is less about Istan and more in lowering values in loot in general. Lowering the value of loot drops IMO is bad for the general health of a game. GW2 already has one of the worst liquid coin drops out there. If you make rewards worthless from playing the game then you create a sense that people just wasted their time since loot is part of the equation of fun/challenge/loot. You need all three to keep people playing.

 

The problem here is if you make all loot worthless than you remove some of the reason to play. People like to get loot that has value to them. Why do people skip trash mobs that drop no loot? Reward = time spent. Fights by themselves are fun, but why did WvW take a population hit? It took a hit because though it was fun it was missing the loot side of the equation. In the end it cost more to play it then you made by playing it. Now they have done a lot to change that over time mind you, but people couldn't gear up while playing the mode at that time which is why it needed an overhaul.

 

People like to earn coin in game to buy things they need. If you destroy high end materials then most players will be receiving loot that's now considered trash and just farmers in unplayed zones will earn coin to buy things they need. Will farmers balance out supply, maybe. Is farming typically in newer zones, short terms yes long term not as much. And most people want to just play the game, not run in a farm for something they can then turn into coin to buy the things they aren't getting.

 

So you will then either need to buy gems for gold to buy mats from the zones you are not playing versus being able to sell the mats from the zones you are playing in and buying the mats you are missing. Any player that uses their in game gold to convert to gems to acquire things off the gem store are also hit. Yes that's again good for Anet since they can increase gem sales with cash but it leaves players feeling they received less for time played which leads them to other games.

 

Long story short you need enough syncs to warrant supply, but you also don't want to imbalance the tiers. T2/3/4 materials shouldn't be more valuable then T6 materials. In the end everyone stops leveling at 80 so if you trash the loot drops of the majority of the player base only farmers and ANet gem sales benefit. Yes it's better for players gearing now but as soon as you have to buy things that aren't imbalanced you have nothing of value to trade for the things you do need, so you are back to playing older content on a new toon because you can earn more coin there than that of your max level toon.

 

Maguuma lillies are a good example, at one point they were 15+ gold. If wanted to craft a set of Trailblazers it cost you 270 in gold to get the materials just for the insignia. Gather everywhere and it took 2 years after HoT before the first Mag Lily every dropped. Without buying those mats you could expect to be able to craft that set in 34 more years at that drop rate. Had found more precursors than Mag lillies in that time. So without getting other loot drops that could be sold there would be no options but to do gems from cash to gold. Having the gem options for sake of convenience is good to keep gold sellers out of game, but not good if there is no value in the loot you receive from playing. So before saying everything should be valued in coppers remember that, else Jute will be the most valued mat in the game.

 

2 cents.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

> @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> This is less about Istan and more in lowering values in loot in general. Lowering the value of loot drops IMO is bad for the general health of a game. GW2 already has one of the worst liquid coin drops out there. If you make rewards worthless from playing the game then you create a sense that people just wasted their time since loot is part of the equation of fun/challenge/loot. You need all three to keep people playing.

>

> The problem here is if you make all loot worthless than you remove some of the reason to play. People like to get loot that has value to them. Why do people skip trash mobs that drop no loot? Reward = time spent. Fights by themselves are fun, but why did WvW take a population hit? It took a hit because though it was fun it was missing the loot side of the equation. In the end it cost more to play it then you made by playing it. Now they have done a lot to change that over time mind you, but people couldn't gear up while playing the mode at that time which is why it needed an overhaul.

>

> People like to earn coin in game to buy things they need. If you destroy high end materials then most players will be receiving loot that's now considered trash and just farmers in unplayed zones will earn coin to buy things they need. Will farmers balance out supply, maybe. Is farming typically in newer zones, short terms yes long term not as much. And most people want to just play the game, not run in a farm for something they can then turn into coin to buy the things they aren't getting.

>

> So you will then either need to buy gems for gold to buy mats from the zones you are not playing versus being able to sell the mats from the zones you are playing in and buying the mats you are missing. Any player that uses their in game gold to convert to gems to acquire things off the gem store are also hit. Yes that's again good for Anet since they can increase gem sales with cash but it leaves players feeling they received less for time played which leads them to other games.

>

> Long story short you need enough syncs to warrant supply, but you also don't want to imbalance the tiers. T2/3/4 materials shouldn't be more valuable then T6 materials. In the end everyone stops leveling at 80 so if you trash the loot drops of the majority of the player base only farmers and ANet gem sales benefit. Yes it's better for players gearing now but as soon as you have to buy things that aren't imbalanced you have nothing of value to trade for the things you do need, so you are back to playing older content on a new toon because you can earn more coin there than that of your max level toon.

>

> Maguuma lillies are a good example, at one point they were 15+ gold. If wanted to craft a set of Trailblazers it cost you 270 in gold to get the materials just for the insignia. Gather everywhere and it took 2 years after HoT before the first Mag Lily every dropped. Without buying those mats you could expect to be able to craft that set in 34 more years at that drop rate. Had found more precursors than Mag lillies in that time. So without getting other loot drops that could be sold there would be no options but to do gems from cash to gold. Having the gem options for sake of convenience is good to keep gold sellers out of game, but not good if there is no value in the loot you receive from playing. So before saying everything should be valued in coppers remember that, else Jute will be the most valued mat in the game.

>

> 2 cents.

 

Seems like they need to increase the Maguuma lilies drop rates, then you won't have such a problem.

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"YoukiNeko.6047" said:

> Seems like they need to increase the Maguuma lilies drop rates, then you won't have such a problem.

 

More to the point, there will be items that will still cost coin at times and if players can't earn any coin then they will have to by gems. You want to encourage your players to buy gems, but not make them feel like they have to buy gems. Optional gem purchases are good, forced ones to continue to play the game are bad. More items that have no value the closer you get to the later.

 

[YoukiNeko.6047]

> @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> > @"YoukiNeko.6047" said:

> > Seems like they need to increase the Maguuma lilies drop rates, then you won't have such a problem.

>

> More to the point, there will be items that will still cost coin at times and if players can't earn any coin then they will have to by gems. You want to encourage your players to buy gems, but not make them feel like they have to buy gems. Optional gem purchases are good, forced ones to continue to play the game are bad. More items that have no value the closer you get to the later.

>

 

Increase all items drop rates? I find if better if I can complete specific content for the item I want instead of buying it from the TP.

 

Anyway fractals junk items can give some gold, dungeons give gold, world bosses give gold.

The SilverWaste farm might drop the gold per hour but still it will give gold.

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> This is less about Istan and more in lowering values in loot in general. Lowering the value of loot drops IMO is bad for the general health of a game.

 

Glad someone else gets it. Items that you get in the majority of your gameplay in level capped zones being worthless makes the game feel awful.

 

Silk scraps were 25c last night when I bought some, they're almost back to NPC value. I haven't seem them at this price since vanilla.

 

It took anet literally one single content update to undo everything john smith did, hilarious.

 

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

I'm glad I don't go by value and go by "what I like" then.

I don't care if something is 1 copper worth or 1 gold worth.

 

I'm sorry if you really care about, "Oh, this item only worth 100 gold now and not 1000 gold. Worthless...", but I've never had a problem like this.

[DakotaCoty.5721]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> > This is less about Istan and more in lowering values in loot in general. Lowering the value of loot drops IMO is bad for the general health of a game.

>

> Glad someone else gets it. Items that you get in the majority of your gameplay in level capped zones being worthless makes the game feel awful.

>

> Silk scraps were 25c last night when I bought some, they're almost back to NPC value. I haven't seem them at this price since vanilla.

>

> It took anet literally one single content update to undo everything john smith did, hilarious.

>

 

Someone tried to inform you about John Smith earlier within this thread and it seems you've given no due care or attention to it - please read what the user said with regards to this thread.

 

There are many materials at NPC value - I don't get why this is so shocking or used at such hyperbolic value, silk was never such a worthy material keep around if you cared that much for farming.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > @"Veprovina.4876" said:

> > > > > @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> > > > > uhm...sorry, but...so what? Just means new players can more easily get some of those mats in case they want to make some legendaries or get their crafting up to to 500. Not really sure what the hub bub is all about.

> > > >

> > > > Rich people won't get richer now.

> > >

> > > Um, no. Rich people always get richer. They are rich because they know how to adapt to whatever the markets are doing.

> > >

> >

> > Then no reason to nerf. Consumers like moi get to buy certain things need cheaper, while the rich people find their new cashcow to milk.

>

> That doesn't follow either. In a depressed economy, there's overall less satisfaction with loot, so it's not a guaranteed improvement for players. In an inflated economy, everything costs a lot, so people get anxious that they have to work harder to keep pace. It's tricky to balance between too much loot and too little.

>

> The main problem with Istan multi-loot is the same as for AB/ML: if the rewards are too strong, it makes everything else less worthwhile in comparison, which hurts those who aren't interested in repetitively farming the same things over and over again. The main problem with PoF loot generally is that it's so generous that non-PoF zones also suffer in comparison.

>

> Of course, ANet might have intended this all along. They might have decided that market prices for all sorts of things were higher than they wanted and they prefer this new equilibrium: the vast majority of basic mats are cheap, leaving behind only a tiny amount of hard-to-obtain items. It's hard to tell what ANet is thinking, especially since they have gotten out of the bad habit of overreacting early & often.

 

I'd guess they want to give players incentive to spend time in the new maps and they consider the deflated economy a fair trade-off. I'd also guess a nerf *will* eventually happen, but not necessarily immediately.

[DarcShriek.5829]

The Meta shouldn't be nerfed, but it should be fixed. Multi Map shouldn't be allowed.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"DarcShriek.5829" said:

> The Meta shouldn't be nerfed, but it should be fixed. Multi Map shouldn't be allowed.

 

You don't need a multimap though, just switching characters works. The obvious solution would be to only reset chests at the start of the next cycle.

[Zenli.3684]

My guess is that they want to allow crafting to casual players who can't farm a stack of T5 mat everyday.

Crafting was a nice to have to get stuff for reroll now it is needed for ascended, collections,.... and meta is not stable anymore (3 years wth zerk for all toons no need to craft...)

 

I'm happy for T2-T4 trophies as it reward exploration of "old" map and once craft levelling is done it is a luxury for legendary crafting only when these T5-T6 are are a now daily need for most people.

[DarcShriek.5829]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"DarcShriek.5829" said:

> > The Meta shouldn't be nerfed, but it should be fixed. Multi Map shouldn't be allowed.

>

> You don't need a multimap though, just switching characters works. The obvious solution would be to only reset chests at the start of the next cycle.

 

I didn't know that. sounds seriously broken.

[Conncept.7638]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Gold to gems is going up.

> The price of all items are going down.

>

> Enjoy your "Accessible" economy!

 

That IS more accessible, most people don't ever earn enough gold for converting to gems to be worth anything. My guild, at its highest point of 300 active members, only ever had a dozen or so players that ever had more than 300 gold at one time. You severely overestimate how rewarding gold is for a casual player, that system and the conversion system principally exists for hardcore players and farmers who've reached insurmountable wealth compared to a casual player.

[particlepinata.9865]

If its good for normal players, what the problem? Most people dont play economy/grind farm simulator. But play a game for fun, dont waste hours of precious rl time for grinding for gold.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> > This is less about Istan and more in lowering values in loot in general. Lowering the value of loot drops IMO is bad for the general health of a game.

>

> Glad someone else gets it. Items that you get in the majority of your gameplay in level capped zones being worthless makes the game feel awful.

>

> Silk scraps were 25c last night when I bought some, they're almost back to NPC value. I haven't seem them at this price since vanilla.

>

> It took anet literally one single content update to undo everything john smith did, hilarious.

>

 

Neither of you “get it”. An xpac just launched and more players are playing, and contributing to the economy... Competition causes prices to decrease, and that’s a sign the xpac sold decently and more players are logging in to play... those are indicators of a healthy game.

 

You can attempt to spin doctor your position, and overdramatize (see your title) what’s happening, but you have zero clue how this all goes. It’s funny how you think less players playing the game = healthy, just because you’re niggling over a few less silver in your pocket...

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> I'm glad I don't go by value and go by "what I like" then.

> I don't care if something is 1 copper worth or 1 gold worth.

>

> I'm sorry if you really care about, "Oh, this item only worth 100 gold now and not 1000 gold. Worthless...", but I've never had a problem like this.

 

I too care most about what I like. If, using your numbers, I cannot afford what I like because my in game income has been reduced by 90% then that whole, "go by what I like," is out the window.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > I'm glad I don't go by value and go by "what I like" then.

> > I don't care if something is 1 copper worth or 1 gold worth.

> >

> > I'm sorry if you really care about, "Oh, this item only worth 100 gold now and not 1000 gold. Worthless...", but I've never had a problem like this.

>

> I too care most about what I like. If, using your numbers, I cannot afford what I like because my in game income has been reduced by 90% then that whole, "go by what I like," is out the window.

 

Don't see how as if whatever you wanted to use those same things, the value of it will also drop.

If the item itself has not dropped, then it also means to make it would be way cheaper than if you bought the item.

[DakotaCoty.5721]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > > I'm glad I don't go by value and go by "what I like" then.

> > > I don't care if something is 1 copper worth or 1 gold worth.

> > >

> > > I'm sorry if you really care about, "Oh, this item only worth 100 gold now and not 1000 gold. Worthless...", but I've never had a problem like this.

> >

> > I too care most about what I like. If, using your numbers, I cannot afford what I like because my in game income has been reduced by 90% then that whole, "go by what I like," is out the window.

>

> Don't see how as if whatever you wanted to use those same things, the value of it will also drop.

> If the item itself has not dropped, then it also means to make it would be way cheaper than if you bought the item.

 

Most crafted items adjust very quickly to their minimal craft prices of their respective materials; there are very few exceptions to the rule - like where account-bound materials are used.

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"DakotaCoty.5721" said:

 

> There are many materials at NPC value - I don't get why this is so shocking or used at such hyperbolic value, silk was never such a worthy material keep around if you cared that much for farming.

 

???? Still remember when silk was 11 silver a bolt. Not sure where you are going there.

 

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

 

> Neither of you “get it”. An xpac just launched and more players are playing, and contributing to the economy... Competition causes prices to decrease, and that’s a sign the xpac sold decently and more players are logging in to play... those are indicators of a healthy game.

>

> You can attempt to spin doctor your position, and overdramatize (see your title) what’s happening, but you have zero clue how this all goes. It’s funny how you think less players playing the game = healthy, just because you’re niggling over a few less silver in your pocket...

 

Didn't say anything about player counts and that being good or bad. The point I was trying to make is you want loot to have value. Right now we are back to a point where there seems to be more coming into economy then going out. So either we are missing syncs, more mats are coming in or people were amassing mats expecting new legendaries they didn't get and are now off loading materials. Personally I think there were too many T6 nodes added in PoF, never expected to be sitting on 2000 ancient wood logs and 2000 planks nor the same in ori. The fact that iron ore is 3x times the price of ori, feels off, IMO. And again, when you go to buy something that's multiple of hundreds of gold and the loot you are taking in at level 80 is in the coppers, that's not a good feeling. At least to me. So again, it might be that we are missing more syncs versus the current drop rate. We saw some serious movement with Gen 3 legendaries since each one required around 32K logs and 32K in ore plus other materials. So its possible we are now experiencing post where-are-the-next-batch syndrome as well. We will have to see.

 

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > > I'm glad I don't go by value and go by "what I like" then.

> > > I don't care if something is 1 copper worth or 1 gold worth.

> > >

> > > I'm sorry if you really care about, "Oh, this item only worth 100 gold now and not 1000 gold. Worthless...", but I've never had a problem like this.

> >

> > I too care most about what I like. If, using your numbers, I cannot afford what I like because my in game income has been reduced by 90% then that whole, "go by what I like," is out the window.

>

> Don't see how as if whatever you wanted to use those same things, the value of it will also drop.

> If the item itself has not dropped, then it also means to make it would be way cheaper than if you bought the item.

 

Not really. Not everything on the market can be made with the newly price reduced mats.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

The answer depends on who and how loud people complain. The trains in the starter areas and chest farming in the Silverwastes for example. Otherwise, it's not like it's real money. Cheaper prices on the Trading Post isn't a bad thing in my book.

[Faaris.8013]

I don't think the economy suffers from the farm-country. It mainly affects hoarders. For example, with PoF, total costs for a legendary weapon dropped from more than 3000 gold to sometimes 2200. Does that mean it's easier or faster for players now to get a legendary weapon? The answer is no, it's about the same as before. Before, you could sell stacks of ectos for 80 gold each and purchase mats you needed. Now a stack is sold for 50g or so, and the other mats are cheaper too. It's only cheaper now if you buy gold with gems/real money to purchase the stuff you need. And if your main source of income is mats you sell to vendors, because these prices didn't change.

 

What worries me a bit is the direction this is giving the game when it comes to occupying its players' time. When we asked a buddy to join the fractal run the other day, he replied that he's still working through 10k unidentified items, and that he cannot take a break from it because he boosted his Magic Find to 800, and the boost vanishes when he leaves the map. These new farm country's rewards are such a strong incentive that it draws people to it who are not farmers in general. Many people spend their game time at the farm, and then hours over hours to reap the rewards from it. And what kind of gameplay is that? You are sitting there for hours clicking on packages in your inventory, robbing you from all freedom to enjoy the game's content. We had the same with the Halloween labyrinth, but that was just for a short period of time. If Anet didn't like turret farms, they certainly don't like the Istan farm and the labour that comes from it for players. But yet, here we are. Is there a 3rd party tool already that automates the identification and salvaging process? If not, soon there will be.

 

I think this farm created an unhealthy environment more than the turret farm did, and I want nothing to do with it. I despise that people are made to spend their freetime like robots or monkeys by strong incentives.