STIHL.2489 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Is anyone suddenly starting to see the problem with requiring making a post to all the people you agree with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 I like the idea of adding downvotes back, but making just downvotes nont anonymous. This should be more than enough to combat the very few trolls that are on the forum. But its not like you couldn't already pick them out anyway. Random posts from the same person getting just 1 downvote each? Almost guaranteed to be another forum just downvoting them. An entire thread has the same number of downvotes on each post? Almost certainly a brigade. Its not like it was hard to know when that was happening..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @STIHL.2489 said: > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > @STIHL.2489 said: > > > However, a lack of headway on your part, might have something to do with you invalidating your whole point, by responding to posts that are in disagreement with you. now, if you came to a forum to just press buttons as opposed to seeking to engage in open dialogue, then you missed the whole idea what even coming to a forum is about, it's about discussing things, if you you did not come here for that, then maybe you should spend your time doing something else.. like playing the game. > > > > And yet the entire premise of this thread was that, if the disagree button was to be removed so too should be the single button to agree. How is that open dialogue that we should be coming to these forums to find encouraged by someone who just presses a single button? > > Well, let me see if I have this right. What you are saying is that you want a topic full of people quoting each other saying "I agree", reality check, people don't need to discuss why they agree, do you expect everyone that agrees with you to chime in and say "I agree" Your post has 1 agreement to it, do you need to know why they agree with you? > > However, understating different views and opinions is integral to growth, ergo, trying to understand why someone may disagree with you, can be very helpful. > > However, this is also a gaming forum, and thus it has no shortage of people with way too much ego and free time that just want to be right and would rather a button to say "No your wrong" then trying to make any effort to have a discussion, I can see those people wanting/needing such a feature. In some cases, for some posters, it's better to give them their button if that would shut them up. But why bother to cater to such a demographic? If player A disagrees with a suggestion and player B agrees then player B's vkew and opinion is differing from player A's calling for (I assume you meant understanding not understating?) understanding in order for there to be growth. And yet player A held to a different standard in this environment of understanding and growth than is player B. What is desired is not understanding and growth but rather a means of restricting disagreement while enabling ego-stroking. You imply that it is those who wish an equally simple means of disagreeing who have the ego issue, and yet it is those opposed to the thumbs down who consider simple, efficient, disagreement expressed in a non-offensive manner to be, "mean," or, "trolling." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @STIHL.2489 said: > > @Epphyx.5078 said: > > As the title says, I do think that removing the thumb down was a bad idea. > > 1) You did it on the day one Anet post was massively down voted. Most definitly a coincidence but it will stick in people's mind as "they did it so we can't express our disagreement so easily". So bad timing. > > 2) You did not remove Helpfull nor thumb up. If I have to type a message to express how I disagree with a post, with don't I have to type a message to express how I agree ? > > 3) It promote the idea that only positive thoughts are allowed on the forum. But without criticism there's no progress only stagnation. > > Without Open Dialogue as to WHY you disagree, simply disagreeing with someone is pointless, and even more pointless when hidden behind an anonymous function button, if you can't put your name to it, it can't matter that much you to. > > Equally so, I should not need to explain why I agree, as we are in agreement. This is such contrived, hypocritical, and flawed logic. If we have to state why we disagree, then we also have to state why we agree. As it is, you could agree with part of a post, but not all of it. And a simple upvote doesn't convey that, it makes it seem like you agree with all of it. Plus, knowing the why someone agrees is important. Take a generic PvP thread complaining about X class being too strong. Some people will upvote because they just hate X class and want to see it nerfed to oblivion for no reason. Some people will upvote because they genuinely don't know a thing about X class and think the post is unbiased. And some people may upvote because the post was well thought out and they actually agreed with the sound reasoning behind it, instead of the kneejerk reaction of "I hate X class, always agree with nerfing it even if it doesn't really need it". You cannot require a reason for downvoting and then not require a reason for upvoting. There's no logic there. Either we have both, or we have neither. Otherwise it just presents a hugely 1 sided argument and ignores crucial information that is extremely relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @DakotaCoty.5721 said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @DakotaCoty.5721 said: > > > > @Carighan.6758 said: > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > because just enough people use that tactically rather than strictly as a "I disagree" marker > > > > > > > > I would love to see data on this before making wild statements such as this. "Tactically"? For combat purposes or what? > > > > > > - Oh I dislike this idea? Downvote, no comment > > > - Oh I dislike this person? Downvote, no comment > > > - Oh this person is trying too hard, downvote, no comment. > > > - Oh this person is popular, downvote, no comment > > > - Oh I dislike something this person said but the idea was good, Downvote, no comment > > > > > > You see where I'm going with this? > > > > Making stuff up with no evidence and ignoring the opposing argument isn't a strong argument. > > I didn't "make stuff up" it was removed because people were openly abusing it. Helpful players with massive downvotes on their profile because people simply disliked the advice they gave or didn't agree with the content. > > Your persistence in arguing with me, or rather, attempting, is getting tiresome. They wouldn't have removed the system unless it was being abused and what you quoted was a literal example of things I saw. Expressing disagreement when one disagrees with the content of a post kr expressing that one dislikes a suggestion, when one actually dislikes that suggestion, is not abuse any more than is using the thumbs up when one lines or agrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Not one bit. Downvotes showed valuable information about the __proportion__ of the community that agreed with a comment/post. And this existed even through the very few trolls on the forums (and honestly, that problem was just going to get smaller as the "newness" of the downvote button wore off). Now we have lost all of that information. Its just gone now, because some people can't handle having someone disagree with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 yah ... making them [Anonymous was a bad idea](http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/greater-internet-fuckwad-theory "Anonymous was a bad idea"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambent.6375 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Should removed the whole system if people can't even handle a thumbs down. -coming from someone too cowardly to run dungeons because i'm afraid of being yelled at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @DakotaCoty.5721 said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > I'm in agreement. > > > > As an American (and i do realize not everyone on these forums is American but the devs are stationed here) it feels like an infringement of my civil right, not because thumbs down was removed, but because the reason behind its removal is to police criticism that wasn't in any way inherently negative. And yes, i realize the forums do not follow anything regarding the US constitution but you'd expect someone who is from the country to have similar morals and values, i.e the devs and mods. > > > > Considering the whole social and political climate, just removing thumbs down is an act of favouritism within the community who feel some discourse make a discussion better vs those who think simple dislikes is a negative environment. The only recourse is to remove all voting options and leave silence as a mode of disagreement. This would also mean removing the badge system as well. For someone who enjoys posting, reading and participation in the forums, this is a net loss but an apparently necessary one. > > Stop this kitten. > > If we act smart for just a microsecond, it is easy to predict why downvote was removed - it was used mostly to disagree with people or push down ~~bad~~ ideas. I have done nothing but help people on this forum and some people literally voted my posts negatively because of that - I had something like 20 downvotes on me advising people that ArcDps was safe to use. `Oh, I dislike this opinion or idea, instead of leaving feedback, I'll downvote` > > This has nothing to do with politics, being an American or civil rights - and the fact you went off on a tangent like that is actually laughable. > > Here are some GW2 facts for you: > - NA is actually the least popular region in GW2. EU has a dominating population. > - EU is leagues ahead of NA in raid/pve/wvw/pvp meta. > - Most of the leading guilds and most YouTubers are from the EU/UK. > > I find it very insulting that you'd lay down "We Americans are more important" speech, when actually, in this situation, you're the population minority. You state that it was removed because it was used to disagree with posts as if disagreeing were something bad. Something to be discouraged. As if someone disagreeing with you, as you used yourself as an example, were something to be disallowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJWhat.9237 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 This opinion is hated by the community, but many agree that it is helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUndefined.1720 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Ayakaru.6583 said: > The downvote option is a valuable tool that shows people think something really is a bad idea, and its distinct from the indifference shown in simply not voting. I think, especially since its anonymous, there was no reason to remove it, and its removal may actually damage the integrity of the forum. This poll is equally anonymous, unless you comment your choice of course. People should show if something is a bad idea by using the forums as it's intended with a response, like this one. Thumbs down was a nonconstructive form of feedback. Thumbs down could also lead towards harassment or even undue influence. I think it was a smart decision to take it out, so good job on ANet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @CETheLucid.3964 said: > > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said: > > > @CETheLucid.3964 said: > > > Everyone can say "me 2" without justifying it > > > But now no one can simply say "nah" > > > > > > I'm not always going to write an elaborate response to why I don't agree with something anymore than I'm inclined to write an elaborate response to something I might agree with. It's just something I do as it comes to me. Lazy people were going to be lazy regardless of if there were a voting system. Now the system is just rigged one way. That's stupid. > > > > Wait for someone else to formulate an opinion similar to the one you don't consider important enough to spend any time expressing, and upvote that post. > > Or avoid the whole run around and just make it equal. Thumbs up and down, or none at all. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Either bring back the thumbs down, or eliminate the other options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @OriOri.8724 said: > I have to disagree with removing the thumbs down button. Reddit is quite possibly the largest forum on the internet, certainly orders of magnitude bigger than the GW2 forums at any rate, and it has kept the down vote button all these years because there is no inherent problem with it. Sure, there will be some trolls. But not nearly as many as people who legitimately use the downvote button. > > Its a very efficient way to see the consensus on a certain post, which makes it very good at judging the quality of feedback, much better than just blindly having upvotes does. Like someone mentioned, you could have 50+ upvotes, but if you had 500 downvotes on that same post it shows thatthe majority of people disagree with the idea. Now though you would just see 50 upvotes and be led to assume that hte community agrees with it. > > Please either reinstate the thumbs down button, or remove thumbs up. > > If you keep thumbs up, at the very least let us thumb down top level posts in threads. This at least gives some realistic feedback as to how the community feels about the topic Reddit is different as both upvotes and downvotes go towards a single score. Some people can troll a post with downvotes but enough people could counter it with upvotes. This wasn't the case with these forums as they were counted separately. If people are trying to achieve a consensus on multiple stances, that's what the polls are for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanhelin.3480 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 The third option would need ANet to also abandon a huge part of the new badge-system [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/950/forum-badges-the-full-list](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/950/forum-badges-the-full-list "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/950/forum-badges-the-full-list") - so I guess they wouldn't do so. "Thumbs down" wasn't a part of the badge-system but had no other purpose than expressing someone's dislike or disagreement so it was removed easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menadena.7482 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @TwoGhosts.6790 said: > Losing the thumb down was a good move. Thumbs down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helbjorne.9368 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Reinthir.1349 said: > Orr just use words and state why you disagree. That's my problem with the system as a whole tbh. You don't have to post to say whether you agree or disagree and why. Just get rid of them both at this point since it's creating more hassle than it's worth. Do you require that people provide explanations as to why they like something or agree as well? Maybe we just don't like the cut of your jib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menadena.7482 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 I am just waiting for the first post that expresses some point of view people in general find disagreeable but does not violate the rules. Even better if some big gaming site points out how many people on this forum clicked thumbs up on it (because some people always will) .... and without a way of recording the overwhelming thumbs down it would have received that statement will stand as being true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUndefined.1720 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Epphyx.5078 said: > As the title says, I do think that removing the thumb down was a bad idea. > 1) You did it on the day one Anet post was massively down voted. Most definitly a coincidence but it will stick in people's mind as "they did it so we can't express our disagreement so easily". So bad timing. > 2) You did not remove Helpfull nor thumb up. If I have to type a message to express how I disagree with a post, with don't I have to type a message to express how I agree ? > 3) It promote the idea that only positive thoughts are allowed on the forum. But without criticism there's no progress only stagnation. I disagree with this to an extent. Number 1, ANet had other thumbs down votes on other posts. The fact I now have to actually express my disagreement is in support of expressing criticism and disagreement. Easy = nonconstructive. "I love ice cream!" I disagree - well why? What is it about ice cream you disagree with? Is it me loving ice cream? Etc. The whole point of the forums is to converse. I do agree the thumbs up should also be altered. The +1 system was a good way to go. It's not necessarily an agreement or disagreement. I might +1 a funny meme b/c it made me laugh or I thought it was clever. I might also +1 a statement that I disagree with, but it was very well constructed. Again, I don't think taking out thumbs down will pull away constructive responses but actually promotes it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Witch of Doom.5739 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 They are both positive reactions, but one obviously means the content was literally helpful. A thumbs-up can be given for other reasons such as, "Hey, that post made me laugh!" I agree with the above poster; don't overthink it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Ayrilana.1396 said: > > @OriOri.8724 said: > > I have to disagree with removing the thumbs down button. Reddit is quite possibly the largest forum on the internet, certainly orders of magnitude bigger than the GW2 forums at any rate, and it has kept the down vote button all these years because there is no inherent problem with it. Sure, there will be some trolls. But not nearly as many as people who legitimately use the downvote button. > > > > Its a very efficient way to see the consensus on a certain post, which makes it very good at judging the quality of feedback, much better than just blindly having upvotes does. Like someone mentioned, you could have 50+ upvotes, but if you had 500 downvotes on that same post it shows thatthe majority of people disagree with the idea. Now though you would just see 50 upvotes and be led to assume that hte community agrees with it. > > > > Please either reinstate the thumbs down button, or remove thumbs up. > > > > If you keep thumbs up, at the very least let us thumb down top level posts in threads. This at least gives some realistic feedback as to how the community feels about the topic > > Reddit is different as both upvotes and downvotes go towards a single score. Some people can troll a post with downvotes but enough people could counter it with upvotes. This wasn't the case with these forums as they were counted separately. > > If people are trying to achieve a consensus on multiple stances, that's what the polls are for. The core vote count was just adding the upvotes and downvotes together, which is just arithmetic. And for years, they kept a running talley of the total upvotes and downvotes separate anyway. I really don't see how that's any different. End result, you have both upvotes and downvotes, all that happens is Reddit does elementary school level arithmetic on the vote total for you, and GW2 forums don't. But they both keep a running track of total upvotes/downvotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said: > The problem with a "Thumbs Down" option is that it adds nothing of value in most situations. Any time anyone takes the time to post anything substantial, rating it with a downvote conveys nothing. > > What warranted that reaction? Was it the tone of the post? Was it one point made among many? Was it the whole package? Did the post start off on a false premise? Do you disagree with a conclusion? Do you feel the issue shouldn't be up for discussion at all? And these are just the **valid** reasons for disagreement. There will also be the "lolwut" downvotes, the "tl/dr" downvotes and the sheer malicious ones. > > A downvote has no value to anyone other than the one casting it. Get over yourselves. Using that very same logic, an upvote conveys nothing either, since it doesn't tell you what warranted that reaction. Arguments like these come to the only logical conclusion that we need either both upvotes and downvotes, or neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davion Roth.6709 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 I'll say it again, like I did in another similar thread...people can't vote on things I say in a verbal _discussion_, they can say back to me why they agree or disagree, that's what makes it a discussion. There is no reason for voting in any kind of way, up or down, in a _discussion_ forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhanoa.3960 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Please merge with the below POLL, it's pretty much the same concept and discussion. which was originally started on the 19th. [do you approve of the removal of the the downvote](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/2479/do-you-approve-of-the-removal-of-the-the-downvote#latest "do you approve of the removal of the the downvote") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helbjorne.9368 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @DakotaCoty.5721 said: > This is the third thread on the system - it was abused, it has been removed. TIL disliking or disagreeing with something = abuse. The more you know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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