Nerf scourge, really.

[Velimere.7685]

> @"jihm.2315" said:

> seems intentionally op but i dont know why they did this

 

It's like being able to set down an area for stronger Mesmer shatter effects that's also larger, burns on placement, and has stronger effects _and_ lower cooldowns while also performing said effects with lower cooldowns around the Scourge too. There's nothing OP about that! ;)

[Blacksheep.8932]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

 

> people would rather complain they have a thousand condis on them than remember they died because they had a ton of corruptible boons and allowed themselves to get close enough to a necro to corrupt them.

> Because, corrupting boons is mostly a close contact thing. Most of the boon corruption things are either melee/short range pulses from the necro and the shades, or ground targeted afairs.t.

 

 

this is a point control game, you have a class with spammable insane condition damage that covers the ENTIRE fucking point, how are you suposed to deal with it?

 

[DarcShriek.5829]

> @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > @"Aedaryl.3195" said:

> > Hello anet, if you did't noticed it, scourge is brainless, noob friendly and OP.

> >

> > For the sake of balance, can at least REMOVE WEAKNESS FROM CONDITION NECRO POOL. Missing half your attack at the second the scourge touch you is not fair, especially when there is 10 condition on you, making impossible to purge weakness.

>

> DH trapper meta was the exact same situation: a low risk high reward class emerges then every newb and their mother start playing it. Meanwhile, the actual top players are the ones countering said class, and no one points out how OP they are themselves.

>

> This season, look at the top players and you'll see a lot of Rangers, Thieves and Mesmers. Necromancer being the most OP are a meme because of how hard it is for a _good_ necro to actually counter a _good_ druid.

 

Fortunately most druids are awful.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Blacksheep.8932" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

>

> > people would rather complain they have a thousand condis on them than remember they died because they had a ton of corruptible boons and allowed themselves to get close enough to a necro to corrupt them.

> > Because, corrupting boons is mostly a close contact thing. Most of the boon corruption things are either melee/short range pulses from the necro and the shades, or ground targeted afairs.t.

>

>

> this is a point control game, you have a class with spammable insane condition damage that covers the ENTIRE kitten point, how are you suposed to deal with it?

>

 

You might have read the previous posts where i mentioned a great counter for scourge in PvP would be to allow players to either knock out the shades, or add a break bar on them allowing them to be dissipated if you break the bar.

It isn't as spammable as you think.

[EnidLarr.1478]

but do u know they will cry again and cry and cry? remember spellbreaker issue the necros cried like 3 yr old is lost

[Crinn.7864]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Blacksheep.8932" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> >

> > > people would rather complain they have a thousand condis on them than remember they died because they had a ton of corruptible boons and allowed themselves to get close enough to a necro to corrupt them.

> > > Because, corrupting boons is mostly a close contact thing. Most of the boon corruption things are either melee/short range pulses from the necro and the shades, or ground targeted afairs.t.

> >

> >

> > this is a point control game, you have a class with spammable insane condition damage that covers the ENTIRE kitten point, how are you suposed to deal with it?

> >

>

> You might have read the previous posts where i mentioned a great counter for scourge in PvP would be to allow players to either knock out the shades, or add a break bar on them allowing them to be dissipated if you break the bar.

> It isn't as spammable as you think.

 

What if I told you that scourges don't care about what happens to their shades beyond proc'ing unending corruption on drop. Scourges generally prefer to just to use their from-self effects for blowing people up rather than bothering with shade positioning.

 

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Blacksheep.8932" said:

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > >

> > > > people would rather complain they have a thousand condis on them than remember they died because they had a ton of corruptible boons and allowed themselves to get close enough to a necro to corrupt them.

> > > > Because, corrupting boons is mostly a close contact thing. Most of the boon corruption things are either melee/short range pulses from the necro and the shades, or ground targeted afairs.t.

> > >

> > >

> > > this is a point control game, you have a class with spammable insane condition damage that covers the ENTIRE kitten point, how are you suposed to deal with it?

> > >

> >

> > You might have read the previous posts where i mentioned a great counter for scourge in PvP would be to allow players to either knock out the shades, or add a break bar on them allowing them to be dissipated if you break the bar.

> > It isn't as spammable as you think.

>

> What if I told you that scourges don't care about what happens to their shades beyond proc'ing unending corruption on drop. Scourges generally prefer to just to use their from-self effects for blowing people up rather than bothering with shade positioning.

>

Well matey, if you think that point control with Shades isn't a major part of scourge play, then matey you never saw a decent scourge. Because, if i can do the same thing in two places why shouldn't i?

 

But the scourge himself you can already counter. IF you're close enough to be getting corrupted from being too close to a scourge, then guess what? That's on YOU. It's like saying that the lava pit needs a nerf after you dived in it.

Necros have VERY limited stability sources, just cc him away, or burst him from range.

Scepter max range is 900, punishment skill radius is 180 to 300 range.

So stay away from him and don't use condis. Because Plague Signet is 1200 range.

But the sand shades you can't hit, nor can you push them off the point, and if i have a sand shade on a point, and you step on it you'll have a bad time, especially if you're stocked with boons.

[Chapell.1346]

Slow pacing Scourge would be a pain on their side and will definitely make room for Reaper to becomes unstoppable, not saying Global Cooldown is a must.

[Velimere.7685]

> @"DarcShriek.5829" said:

> > @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > > @"Aedaryl.3195" said:

> > > Hello anet, if you did't noticed it, scourge is brainless, noob friendly and OP.

> > >

> > > For the sake of balance, can at least REMOVE WEAKNESS FROM CONDITION NECRO POOL. Missing half your attack at the second the scourge touch you is not fair, especially when there is 10 condition on you, making impossible to purge weakness.

> >

> > DH trapper meta was the exact same situation: a low risk high reward class emerges then every newb and their mother start playing it. Meanwhile, the actual top players are the ones countering said class, and no one points out how OP they are themselves.

> >

> > This season, look at the top players and you'll see a lot of Rangers, Thieves and Mesmers. Necromancer being the most OP are a meme because of how hard it is for a _good_ necro to actually counter a _good_ druid.

>

> Fortunately most druids are awful.

 

I was thinking the same thing about Soulbeasts.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Emmibolt.3928" said:

> > @"jihm.2315" said:

> > seems intentionally op but i dont know why they did this

>

> All the devs play necro

 

I don't think this is true. I think the opposite is actually the case.

[Velimere.7685]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Emmibolt.3928" said:

> > > @"jihm.2315" said:

> > > seems intentionally op but i dont know why they did this

> >

> > All the devs play necro

>

> I don't think this is true. I think the opposite is actually the case.

 

Maybe he means in PvP.

[Kron.6938]

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> We should never balance for the lowest common denominator.

>

 

aka "I have condis on me and I can't clear it because I don't carry any type of condition removal in my build, plz nerf!"

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"witcher.3197" said:

> > @"shagwell.1349" said:

> > League of Legends is not a pvp game. That's as stupid as saying a bicycle is a car.

>

> What did i just read.. it's one of the most successful PvP games atm. Just because it's not pure deathmatch it's still PvP.

 

i would say gw2 has no pvp... rather than say LoL is not a pvp game, where players need to know what do to... rahter than search builds that carries them on gw2 and then practice that...

 

ANet made gw2 all wrong....

[Kuya.6495]

 

 

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > All scourge needs is having less barrier on self unless a particular trait is picked that forces them to forfeit a key damage trait. So they have to choose between their own survival and damage, but can still support others.

>

> It's not that barrier is helping lots...

> Sure a GOOD necro can be unkillable, but that was true for Reaper and core as well (i loved playing chill reaper bunkering points and not dying whole matches). Of all the Necro specs, Scourge is the most squishy, but it's also the most offensive oriented one.

> There are several clear counters for scourge. Very bursty power builds would be one, ranged attacks are another, Firebrand and Tempest perma cleanses are another, but since those builds kind of sacrifice damage, they're more of a soft counter than a Scourge killer.

> The problem is, because condis are so strong, everyone plays a condi build. And Necros are masters of condition damage, so you'll lose.

> The only reason why there's so many complaints about scourge is more or less the same as to why there's so much outcry about "Elitism" in Raids. People want to stick to their guns, and their guns aren't very good vs that particular one.

>

> And at least scourge has a counter, season 1 bunker chorno and tempest didn't.

>

> I think the balance here is less about nerfing scourge, but more about buffing counters for scourge so that they can be more useful vs other classes (and honestly, they have already, people just didn't pick up on it because of what i said earlier).

> I mean, i play Scourge, exclusively lately, because, well i tend to win, and Necro has been one of my favourite classes to play in PvP since at least HoT. But do you know what scares me the most? Longbow rangers... There have been half a dozen guys i had a hard time 1v1 with since PoF, most were longbow power/assassin rangers, others were Rifle Deadeyes and heal/cleanse Tempests or Firebrands (the later just because i couldn't kill it, not that it could kill me). And if you look at Scourge you'll see why... It's not the most mobile class, and while it's awesome vs condis, barrier doesn't do much to supress big bursty damage (it absorbs a bit, but the rest will bite) and it has limited range. Nowhere near 1200, so usually well positioned rangers and DE will end up sniping me to bits.

> But because core builds and Rifle DE are considered "weak" i usually get a free pass to obliterate everyone that uses condis vs me.

>

> I mean in my last match, we won 500 to 2xx, i was constantly defending mid, and was downed ONCE defeated zero times. Because the only power build (i think) was a DH trapper, that didn't play that well, especially because he wanted to melee me so much, and we all know that Guardians are notorious for their lack of easily corruptible boons, right?

>

> I'm not going to be an kitten and say that Scourge isn't overwhelming in the current meta, but that's partly because no one's willing to play counters to it, and it'll be hard to nerf it without it losing its identity, because the strongest point to it atm is boon corruption, and well, people would rather complain they have a thousand condis on them than remember they died because they had a ton of corruptible boons and allowed themselves to get close enough to a necro to corrupt them.

> Because, corrupting boons is mostly a close contact thing. Most of the boon corruption things are either melee/short range pulses from the necro and the shades, or ground targeted afairs.

> One thing might be interesting to balance scourge for pvp is the ability to destroy or knock-back shades. Because they can be annoying no-go areas that can be used to hold a point without having to be physically on it.

 

Hmm. The idea of making shades be vulnerable to knockbacks, launches, stuns and dazes but not killable is actually an interesting idea.

[Alehin.3746]

> @"jihm.2315" said:

> swap game modes if you hate the scourge and you still like the game

> in wvw you can kite them since they arent very fast in spvp its like being in a small cage vs a rottweiler

 

See, THAT'S A GOOD IDEA.

 

But be aware that you will still need condi cleanse or you will die if they get close to you.

[pah.4931]

Scourges by themselves are fine. But in a game mode that forces you to engage other players in tiny little circles... scourges are OP as hell. And really poorly designed, to be frank. It's as if the devs didn't even consider the impact on PvP. It would be tantamount to having a capture-the-flag style be your ONLY pvp mode, then creating an elite class that stealths and evades and runs 200% faster than everyone else. Oops!

 

Here's how you counter. If the either team has a scourge (or two) and your team doesn't, you quit, take the debuff, and try again to not get put on a shit team without a scourge once the debuff wears off. Easy!

[Alehin.3746]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> Scourges by themselves are fine.

No they are not, they're problematic in pvp/wvw for a lot of different reasons.

>And really poorly designed, to be frank.

Why did you say it's "fine" then? You mean like lore-wise or what?

[pah.4931]

> @"Alehin.3746" said:

> > @"pah.4931" said:

> > Scourges by themselves are fine.

> No they are not, they're problematic in pvp/wvw for a lot of different reasons.

> >And really poorly designed, to be frank.

> Why did you say it's "fine" then? You mean like lore-wise or what?

 

Well, Anet class development is based on PvE. As far as I know, there isn't a PvP class balance team. The PvP team works with the class developers, but it's not like there is a Necro PvP developer and a Necro PvE developer. So the class was designed from top to bottom as a PvE class and it appears folks forgot to tell these devs that PvP is based on fighting withing a small circle. If scourge was in a game like WoW, for example, it would be fine. But forcing every player into capture points and then giving one class the ability to instantly shit on anything inside a small circle is just bad HOLISTIC design.

 

So, in a vacuum, scourges are fine. Which why I said "by themselves" (which I don't think you understand what that meant). If there is no PvP, scourge design is fine. If PvP had only capture the flag or death match style maps, scourge would be fine because they can't just camp a point. If PvP even had a larger range of game-types (and not just conquest), then scourges would be fine... they would excel at conquest but there would be others they'd suck at. But, the only game mode is conquest... which is why Scourges are so poorly designed.

 

Games are very complex systems of design. Not hing exists alone. I think my comment just went a bit over your heard, which is OK. We agree with each other. In pvp, Scourges are not good and need adjusted.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Kuya.6495" said:

>

>

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > > All scourge needs is having less barrier on self unless a particular trait is picked that forces them to forfeit a key damage trait. So they have to choose between their own survival and damage, but can still support others.

> >

> > It's not that barrier is helping lots...

> > Sure a GOOD necro can be unkillable, but that was true for Reaper and core as well (i loved playing chill reaper bunkering points and not dying whole matches). Of all the Necro specs, Scourge is the most squishy, but it's also the most offensive oriented one.

> > There are several clear counters for scourge. Very bursty power builds would be one, ranged attacks are another, Firebrand and Tempest perma cleanses are another, but since those builds kind of sacrifice damage, they're more of a soft counter than a Scourge killer.

> > The problem is, because condis are so strong, everyone plays a condi build. And Necros are masters of condition damage, so you'll lose.

> > The only reason why there's so many complaints about scourge is more or less the same as to why there's so much outcry about "Elitism" in Raids. People want to stick to their guns, and their guns aren't very good vs that particular one.

> >

> > And at least scourge has a counter, season 1 bunker chorno and tempest didn't.

> >

> > I think the balance here is less about nerfing scourge, but more about buffing counters for scourge so that they can be more useful vs other classes (and honestly, they have already, people just didn't pick up on it because of what i said earlier).

> > I mean, i play Scourge, exclusively lately, because, well i tend to win, and Necro has been one of my favourite classes to play in PvP since at least HoT. But do you know what scares me the most? Longbow rangers... There have been half a dozen guys i had a hard time 1v1 with since PoF, most were longbow power/assassin rangers, others were Rifle Deadeyes and heal/cleanse Tempests or Firebrands (the later just because i couldn't kill it, not that it could kill me). And if you look at Scourge you'll see why... It's not the most mobile class, and while it's awesome vs condis, barrier doesn't do much to supress big bursty damage (it absorbs a bit, but the rest will bite) and it has limited range. Nowhere near 1200, so usually well positioned rangers and DE will end up sniping me to bits.

> > But because core builds and Rifle DE are considered "weak" i usually get a free pass to obliterate everyone that uses condis vs me.

> >

> > I mean in my last match, we won 500 to 2xx, i was constantly defending mid, and was downed ONCE defeated zero times. Because the only power build (i think) was a DH trapper, that didn't play that well, especially because he wanted to melee me so much, and we all know that Guardians are notorious for their lack of easily corruptible boons, right?

> >

> > I'm not going to be an kitten and say that Scourge isn't overwhelming in the current meta, but that's partly because no one's willing to play counters to it, and it'll be hard to nerf it without it losing its identity, because the strongest point to it atm is boon corruption, and well, people would rather complain they have a thousand condis on them than remember they died because they had a ton of corruptible boons and allowed themselves to get close enough to a necro to corrupt them.

> > Because, corrupting boons is mostly a close contact thing. Most of the boon corruption things are either melee/short range pulses from the necro and the shades, or ground targeted afairs.

> > One thing might be interesting to balance scourge for pvp is the ability to destroy or knock-back shades. Because they can be annoying no-go areas that can be used to hold a point without having to be physically on it.

>

> Hmm. The idea of making shades be vulnerable to knockbacks, launches, stuns and dazes but not killable is actually an interesting idea.

 

Yeah, as someone that has played a lot of scourge, i find that, or a more complicated version but that fits better thematically (leaving a "depleted sands" aoe on the ground after a shade dissipates that prevents a shade being recast on the same spot, making position more important for scourge) would be 2 great ways to balance scourge a lot.

But that will probably never happen because the "balance team" doesn't want to change how things work from PvP to PvE, and idk if having that break bar on bosses in PvE would be healthy!

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> We should never balance for the lowest common denominator.

>

 

Except in the right hands, with the right comp, scourge is easily the most devastating build in a teamfight. They can make a point untouchable and render the enemy team incapacitated. By themselves, they are easy to pick off. But in a teamfight, they are just a major pain to fight, especially when combo'd with a heal druid or a support FB.

 

The problem ultimately stems from the corruption mechanic itself -- it's implemented poorly and unintuitively. If it wasn't for corruption, scourge would actually be really mediocre at best. The debuff system needs to be modernized to match the buff system, IE:

 

* Weakness be converted into an anti-might that stacks (up to -25).

* Fear (from stability) instead becomes an anti-stability that doubles the effects of a CC.

* Vigor becomes an anti-vigor, not a bleed.

* Etc.

 

Some are ok as is. Swiftness -> cripple makes perfect intuitive sense as far as corruption. But the other debuffs are often way out of alignment with what the buff itself does.

[Rufo.3716]

There are a lot more problems other than just scourge. It's the scourge/FB combo that sucks. Scourge by itself isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be. I can kill a scourge without a FB pretty easily on any class.

[jihm.2315]

maybe they did it on purpose to get rid of pvp players, i remember the hate dragon hunter was getting before the nerfs , now they created something even worst just to destroy pvp even more

[Malafaia.8903]

> @"Kron.6938" said:

> > @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > We should never balance for the lowest common denominator.

> >

>

> aka "I have condis on me and I can't clear it because I don't carry any type of condition removal in my build, plz nerf!"

 

Exactly.

It's always the same people that says the "PvP is dead", "it's so easy to pvp here", "it's just a spamfest", "anyone can play this", "PLZ NERF SCOURGE, MIRAGE, DRUID, HOLO".

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"Malafaia.8903" said:

> > @"Kron.6938" said:

> > > @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > > We should never balance for the lowest common denominator.

> > >

> >

> > aka "I have condis on me and I can't clear it because I don't carry any type of condition removal in my build, plz nerf!"

>

> Exactly.

> It's always the same people that says the "PvP is dead", "it's so easy to pvp here", "it's just a spamfest", "anyone can play this", "PLZ NERF SCOURGE, MIRAGE, DRUID, HOLO".

 

Not really.

Condi cleanse are useless because one second later you get CC chained into other shades and your boons corrupted to 20 stacks of every condi in the game again.

 

The only solution is escape all the times renouncing the control point all the times.

In a game mode in which you win by holding the CP scourge is not healthy at all, it is months that it is this way and everybody agrees.

 

Who says the different it is probably a casual player who played 10 matches and encountered only bad scourges, after 100 or 200 games of double scourge in the enemy team you realize how broken and cancerous and unhealthy is that profession for sPvP.

[Malafaia.8903]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > @"Malafaia.8903" said:

> > > @"Kron.6938" said:

> > > > @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > > > We should never balance for the lowest common denominator.

> > > >

> > >

> > > aka "I have condis on me and I can't clear it because I don't carry any type of condition removal in my build, plz nerf!"

> >

> > Exactly.

> > It's always the same people that says the "PvP is dead", "it's so easy to pvp here", "it's just a spamfest", "anyone can play this", "PLZ NERF SCOURGE, MIRAGE, DRUID, HOLO".

>

> Not really.

> Condi cleanse are useless because one second later you get CC chained into other shades and your boons corrupted to 20 stacks of every condi in the game again.

>

> The only solution is escape all the times renouncing the control point all the times.

> In a game mode in which you win by holding the CP scourge is not healthy at all, it is months that it is this way and everybody agrees.

>

> Who says the different it is probably a casual player who played 10 matches and encountered only bad scourges, after 100 or 200 games of double scourge in the enemy team you realize how broken and cancerous and unhealthy is that profession for sPvP.

 

It's been 400+ games just last season.

Scourge was broken at PoF launch, that's a fact. Problem is people keep saying it's broken and just ignores all the nerfs (and bugfixes) Scourges already had. Losing a lot of it's offensive power for a bit more of support/ survivability.

 

"Condi cleanse are useless because one second later you get CC chained into other shades and your boons corrupted to 20 stacks of every condi in the game again."

Come on, you have evades and stunbreakers, don't tell me you'll be CC'ed to your death by a necro. If that's the case, sorry, it's a L2P issue.

I GUARANTEE you that condi cleanses aren't useless. If the Scourge dropped you the "big bomb", aka smashing all F's, you clean all that shit and pressure him/ cc till their deaths, they have nothing more. Scourges have ONE source of stability (and they have a clear animation) so it's easy to be cc chained and bursted.

 

Only thing that MAYBE is a bit OP is that shades have no tell, so you never know when the bomb comes. But that's just how thieves works, right? With A LOT MORE dmg pressure. The mind games is a crucial factor that is usually ignored. Lure them.

 

Now, if we are talking about Scourges + Firebrands duos i will agree that it is a problem. But what i think would solve this problem is trading some survivability/ support for some damage on Firebrands.