trunks.5249 Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 so let me get this right people already drop quick with how strong condi is. you want to make it so bunkers can not do their job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwolf.9571 Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 > @"Razor.6392" said: > > @"rwolf.9571" said: > > Sounds like somebody wastes their bursts when somebody pops their invuln... > > I say no, because it's more of a mind game. Choosing when to pop your own invuln, while waiting for theirs to end. Don't get me wrong. I love chasing engies when they shrink down and run away XD. > > I really don't, because that means I eat 3k damage x3 because of braindead bunker down mines. > > Passive invulns need to go. Well I guess you learn class mechanics or you don't. Hey, I mean I've been guilty of standing in Scourges AOE's too long. You know, the face roll way to do things. When every class has their own Invun state (except necro and thief?). I don't see the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor.6392 Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 > @"rwolf.9571" said: > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > @"rwolf.9571" said: > > > Sounds like somebody wastes their bursts when somebody pops their invuln... > > > I say no, because it's more of a mind game. Choosing when to pop your own invuln, while waiting for theirs to end. Don't get me wrong. I love chasing engies when they shrink down and run away XD. > > > > I really don't, because that means I eat 3k damage x3 because of braindead bunker down mines. > > > > Passive invulns need to go. > > Well I guess you learn class mechanics or you don't. Hey, I mean I've been guilty of standing in Scourges AOE's too long. You know, the face roll way to do things. When every class has their own Invun state (except necro and thief?). I don't see the issue. And no class can burst levels of damage while invuln. Keep defending your freelo tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilyanna.9361 Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 > @"Felipe.1807" said: > The only Invulnerability that i think is balanced is guadian Renewed Focus, long cooldown, cant attack during it and have no passive trait line that triggers it...but stuff like engi is invul is just beyond broken to me, allow the player to be really uncareful with what he is doing, since he have a disposal 2 invul(one active and other passive)...but for balance sake, if they would(which they wont) nerf the invulnerability skills, evades, blocks and things like Endure Pain and Berzerker Stance should also be nerfed. > > > @"plushiesoda.8150" said: > > in a world were over 800k healing on marauder gear, over 15 stacks of confusion in a 3s burst and AoE condition bombing are a thing, invulnerability ain't really much of an issue compared even to stability to me. > > > > I bet over half of the people voting for removing it from pvp main a power build... probably holosmith > > lol can you imagine Holosmith be able to survive a team fight(even a 1v1) without the invulnerability? So if warrior didn't have stances, then what do they have to defend against spike damage? Face tank? Two blocks that one can be triggered from afar and the other lasting a few seconds at most before going on cooldown. Please tell me, what is going to compensate war if you take away something? Because you come off as the type of person to simply nerf something and give nothing in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 Remove all passive invulns. Specifically endure pain, elixir s, and arcane shield traits. Yes arcane shield. Idc how bad ele has it right now, it is cancer to lose to ranged kiting fresh air ele because they happened to trait for that dumb shit; it carries them. Remove that and buff FA ele somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaeo.4097 Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 Invulnerabilities weren't a problem before PoF. So problem is changes made by PoF, not invulnerabilities itself. For instance, most annoying invulnerability now is Holosmith's double Elixir S. But it wasn't an issue on Scrapper. It becomes problem only in combination with insane Holosmith damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor.6392 Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > Remove all passive invulns. Specifically endure pain, elixir s, and arcane shield traits. > > Yes arcane shield. Idc how bad ele has it right now, it is cancer to lose to ranged kiting fresh air ele because they happened to trait for that dumb kitten; it carries them. Remove that and buff FA ele somewhere else. Normally I'd agree but knowning ANet they'd prolly add something like "Gain 5 seconds of might on hit" as a replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ario.8964 Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 > @"Razor.6392" said: > > @"rwolf.9571" said: > > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > > > @"rwolf.9571" said: > > > > Sounds like somebody wastes their bursts when somebody pops their invuln... > > > > I say no, because it's more of a mind game. Choosing when to pop your own invuln, while waiting for theirs to end. Don't get me wrong. I love chasing engies when they shrink down and run away XD. > > > > > > I really don't, because that means I eat 3k damage x3 because of braindead bunker down mines. > > > > > > Passive invulns need to go. > > > > Well I guess you learn class mechanics or you don't. Hey, I mean I've been guilty of standing in Scourges AOE's too long. You know, the face roll way to do things. When every class has their own Invun state (except necro and thief?). I don't see the issue. > > You must be an engi player. No way you can be this dumb lmao. > > If you think it's fine to do 9k damage off of 1 dodge... I mean, I don't even need to talk to you anymore. Your brain is simply inferior. First off, as an engi main I think you need to reevaluate what you're saying about the people who legitimately main the class rather than FOTM scrubs who exploit OP mechanics. Second, with the current way the game works removing passive invuln is impossible without throwing the entire game into a burst meta just like we had pre HoT. In order to allow for the removal of invuln, damage needs to be nerfed EVERYWHERE. If anet refuses to nerf damage then I don't support the removal of invuln as the 1 shot meta was about as boring as the bunker meta. The problem right now is everyone thinks everything would be fine after straight up removing all invuln without considering that without invuln, classes like engi would be utterly useless as they are not given enough sustain to survive in this meta without the double invuln (believe me, I've tried many a time to run without them, even just in dueling you end up running away the whole fight because everyone else has too much sustain for you to trade against without invuln.) All that being said, I'd like to see both damage nerfed and invuln removed to foster a game in which prediction and active defense is what players rely on instead of crutch mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 > @"Razor.6392" said: > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > Remove all passive invulns. Specifically endure pain, elixir s, and arcane shield traits. > > > > Yes arcane shield. Idc how bad ele has it right now, it is cancer to lose to ranged kiting fresh air ele because they happened to trait for that dumb kitten; it carries them. Remove that and buff FA ele somewhere else. > > Normally I'd agree but knowning ANet they'd prolly add something like "Gain 5 seconds of might on hit" as a replacement. As a revenant main I 100% feel what you mean. Everything said on the forums should have an implied "assuming the balance team is competent" disclaimer to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe.1807 Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > The only Invulnerability that i think is balanced is guadian Renewed Focus, long cooldown, cant attack during it and have no passive trait line that triggers it...but stuff like engi is invul is just beyond broken to me, allow the player to be really uncareful with what he is doing, since he have a disposal 2 invul(one active and other passive)...but for balance sake, if they would(which they wont) nerf the invulnerability skills, evades, blocks and things like Endure Pain and Berzerker Stance should also be nerfed. > > > > > @"plushiesoda.8150" said: > > > in a world were over 800k healing on marauder gear, over 15 stacks of confusion in a 3s burst and AoE condition bombing are a thing, invulnerability ain't really much of an issue compared even to stability to me. > > > > > > I bet over half of the people voting for removing it from pvp main a power build... probably holosmith > > > > lol can you imagine Holosmith be able to survive a team fight(even a 1v1) without the invulnerability? > > So if warrior didn't have stances, then what do they have to defend against spike damage? > > Face tank? > Two blocks that one can be triggered from afar and the other lasting a few seconds at most before going on cooldown. > > Please tell me, what is going to compensate war if you take away something? Because you come off as the type of person to simply nerf something and give nothing in return. I am not a expert on the game, so you probably shouldnt take anything that I say serious...but if it was up to me, no I wouldnt give anything to warriors in return, I would nerf damage across all professions, AoE damage would get extreme nerf(shouldnt do more damage then single target skills), condis would only be side effects no damage, would rise the cooldown of some skills, passive trait lines should be reworked(small buffs are okay, damage immunity, or extreme buffs are not healthy for the game), etc. the thing is that the game is not fun to play anymore, i honestly allready gave up of sPvP, i dont mind losing against better players, is allways a oppotunity to learn something, but more then half of the fights that I lose, i have the feeling that I am being cheated lol, more then once I was like "hey now I gonna kill him" and then invulnerability kicks in and he dissapear of my sight just to appear 5 secs later fully recovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 > @"Morwath.9817" said: > Ooo, it's tough question, a bit too tough for a little fishy Quaggan, would you remove for example block on Warrior shield as it's basicaly Invulnerability on "short" CD? some skills are "un-block-able" lol port them away 10,000 random units if it pops a passive invuln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare.1234 Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 the issues are short cd's on long blocks, evades combined with damaging skills, passive invuls and anets balance team. cant see any of these things changing thou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paShadoWn.5723 Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 Another lazy/burnout asking for shorter matches... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bast.7253 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 The biggest problem I have with invuln is on warriors and specifically spell breakers. Not only do they have a passive traited invuln but an active as well. Then full counter which blocks an attack and then does insane damage and transfers conditions. If all that fails they can chain cc you if you manage to outlive their heavy damage, both invulns, constant interrupts, potential shield blocks, full counter block, and seemingly infinite gap closers. It’s just not fun fighting something that is constantly immune to damage, constantly had stability and cannot be stunned, and can passively avoid pretty much all damage for a good 2 minutes of a fight while their heath rapidly regenerates and they’re back to having their cool downs up again. Out of all the classes I hate playing against they are by far the worst, followed by push pull dragon hunter builds and evade spam condi thieves. Rangers have two invulns now too but they at least have to be activated. And engineers double invulns aren’t TOO bad as long as you manage to kite them or stay away long enough for them to get photon forge on cool down. Warriors still need some balance tuning though. Having some warrior stick to you an entire fight and just run around interrupting you or stunning you and everyone else amidst all the damage knowing they have a passive trait to keep them from dying if they screw up is just dumb. Can’t really complain about any others because they at least take some skill, have some risk involved, and take you actually pushing a button or timing your abilities right. Holo being the exception but they at least have to rely on cool down management and take more effort for mobility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loop.8106 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 > @"Felipe.1807" said: > The only Invulnerability that i think is balanced is guadian Renewed Focus, long cooldown, cant attack during it and have no passive trait line that triggers it...but stuff like engi is invul is just beyond broken to me, allow the player to be really uncareful with what he is doing, since he have a disposal 2 invul(one active and other passive)...but for balance sake, if they would(which they wont) nerf the invulnerability skills, evades, blocks and things like Endure Pain and Berzerker Stance should also be nerfed. > > > @"plushiesoda.8150" said: > > in a world were over 800k healing on marauder gear, over 15 stacks of confusion in a 3s burst and AoE condition bombing are a thing, invulnerability ain't really much of an issue compared even to stability to me. > > > > I bet over half of the people voting for removing it from pvp main a power build... probably holosmith > > lol can you imagine Holosmith be able to survive a team fight(even a 1v1) without the invulnerability? I would gladly make Renewed Focus instant cast. Without even touching the other classes invulns. That would probably make it stronger on classes like DH because you would be able to play more reactivly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westenev.5289 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Personally, I think fights should last longer than they currently do. Opening bursts should give an advantage, not melt an enemy into oblivion - blocks, invuln and evades are just a nessicary part of that, given the power creep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loop.8106 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > The only Invulnerability that i think is balanced is guadian Renewed Focus, long cooldown, cant attack during it and have no passive trait line that triggers it...but stuff like engi is invul is just beyond broken to me, allow the player to be really uncareful with what he is doing, since he have a disposal 2 invul(one active and other passive)...but for balance sake, if they would(which they wont) nerf the invulnerability skills, evades, blocks and things like Endure Pain and Berzerker Stance should also be nerfed. > > > > > @"plushiesoda.8150" said: > > > in a world were over 800k healing on marauder gear, over 15 stacks of confusion in a 3s burst and AoE condition bombing are a thing, invulnerability ain't really much of an issue compared even to stability to me. > > > > > > I bet over half of the people voting for removing it from pvp main a power build... probably holosmith > > > > lol can you imagine Holosmith be able to survive a team fight(even a 1v1) without the invulnerability? > > So if warrior didn't have stances, then what do they have to defend against spike damage? > > Face tank? > Two blocks that one can be triggered from afar and the other lasting a few seconds at most before going on cooldown. > > Please tell me, what is going to compensate war if you take away something? Because you come off as the type of person to simply nerf something and give nothing in return. Warrior has a higher block-uptime than both Core Guardian and Dragonhunter. They also have about 8k more base health and evade-frames on their skills. (GS3). They also have access to vigor, which guardian doesn't, more gap closers and higher protection uptime (on Spellbreaker). So to answer your question, I would not give warrior anything to compensate. I would tell each and every one of them to simply get good and start dodging skills that other classes have had to dodge for the past 5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megilandil.7506 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 sure... invuln is the thing that breaks the game... no the thing that breaks the game is stealth and its **antilogic** implementation: -logic implemetation of stealth dont allow insta stealth while in combat (you cant disapear in plain sight of an enemy focused on you) -logic implementation of stealth makes moving while in stealth at reduced speed(moving carefully to not make noises that breaks stealth) -logic implementation of stealth makes that stealth is breaked by taking almost every single action(you make a noise that breaks it) -logic implementation of stealth makes stealths breaked at starting an attack action not at hitting with it resuming: logic implementation of stealth makes it a strategic tool that hides your moves not a tactic combat tool thief must have stealth and fast moving(ports) but not at the same time if you want move secretly you have to do at reduced speed and if you want to move fast you have to do in plain sight, disapearing in midle of a fight and apearing two secs after in the other side of map is not ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilyanna.9361 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 > @"Loop.8106" said: > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > The only Invulnerability that i think is balanced is guadian Renewed Focus, long cooldown, cant attack during it and have no passive trait line that triggers it...but stuff like engi is invul is just beyond broken to me, allow the player to be really uncareful with what he is doing, since he have a disposal 2 invul(one active and other passive)...but for balance sake, if they would(which they wont) nerf the invulnerability skills, evades, blocks and things like Endure Pain and Berzerker Stance should also be nerfed. > > > > > > > @"plushiesoda.8150" said: > > > > in a world were over 800k healing on marauder gear, over 15 stacks of confusion in a 3s burst and AoE condition bombing are a thing, invulnerability ain't really much of an issue compared even to stability to me. > > > > > > > > I bet over half of the people voting for removing it from pvp main a power build... probably holosmith > > > > > > lol can you imagine Holosmith be able to survive a team fight(even a 1v1) without the invulnerability? > > > > So if warrior didn't have stances, then what do they have to defend against spike damage? > > > > Face tank? > > Two blocks that one can be triggered from afar and the other lasting a few seconds at most before going on cooldown. > > > > Please tell me, what is going to compensate war if you take away something? Because you come off as the type of person to simply nerf something and give nothing in return. > > Warrior has a higher block-uptime than both Core Guardian and Dragonhunter. They also have about 8k more base health and evade-frames on their skills. (GS3). They also have access to vigor, which guardian doesn't, more gap closers and higher protection uptime (on Spellbreaker). > So to answer your question, I would not give warrior anything to compensate. I would tell each and every one of them to simply get good and start dodging skills that other classes have had to dodge for the past 5 years. So we can just take aegis away from Guards and tell them to learn how to dodge as well, by that logic. And guardians may not have those things listed above, but they do have access to: - Aegis, which is a lot more spammable on guardians - Teleports, Who needs gap closers when you literally have access to hop to someone - A very strong condi, Which can be utilized on their power buildd to add an extra bit more DPS - Has an invul that can not only refresh your virtues , but is on a WAY shorter cooldown than either of the stances when traited - Better and untouched condi build - Better ranged weapons - Better team support - Overall better traits imo - More build variety to counter the one or two builds that is meta on war right now - More blocks, Because of aegis which can be applied back to back - More CC in weapons - Full condi cleanse, two smites to cleanse, heal on block, need I say more about your sustain? That's not even going into Firebrand. - Your greatsword actuall ydoes more than war greatsword, because instead of having thousand blades and be rooted, you have whirling blades which NOT only break projectiles, but does a HUGE dps spike - The only thing I will give you, is that indeed, wars have more base HP but good and competent guardian players will easily make up for it with the few tools listed above. I can go WAY further to break down on how guardians are actually probably more spoiled than even mesmers. Every single spec. You class has gotten the record or at least tying with the top most broken classes, and the last to get nerfed. You have been meta in ALL gamemodes. The only time you guys were not meta was in the way beginning of GW2 (which even then you ran celestials and still were pretty unkillable. I wasn't around for the start of vanilla so someone correct me) and technically during Dragonhunter era, but you guys rolfstomped ranked que front and back, and Naru (who was the god of pvp at the end of said season he was spamming Dragonhunter) dominated the ranked boards regardless of his unsportsmanlike actions. I will give it to you, Dragonhunter was not taken in Esports, but the fact they were crawling in ALL ranks said something about them in a solo/duo setting. So again, how about we take away all of those things listed above that guardians has for week and see how long you guys last without crying on the forums saying guard is too weak. This is why no one here could be on the balance team, you would butch the what little semblance we have left of balance into tatters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe.1807 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > @"Loop.8106" said: > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > The only Invulnerability that i think is balanced is guadian Renewed Focus, long cooldown, cant attack during it and have no passive trait line that triggers it...but stuff like engi is invul is just beyond broken to me, allow the player to be really uncareful with what he is doing, since he have a disposal 2 invul(one active and other passive)...but for balance sake, if they would(which they wont) nerf the invulnerability skills, evades, blocks and things like Endure Pain and Berzerker Stance should also be nerfed. > > > > > > > > > @"plushiesoda.8150" said: > > > > > in a world were over 800k healing on marauder gear, over 15 stacks of confusion in a 3s burst and AoE condition bombing are a thing, invulnerability ain't really much of an issue compared even to stability to me. > > > > > > > > > > I bet over half of the people voting for removing it from pvp main a power build... probably holosmith > > > > > > > > lol can you imagine Holosmith be able to survive a team fight(even a 1v1) without the invulnerability? > > > > > > So if warrior didn't have stances, then what do they have to defend against spike damage? > > > > > > Face tank? > > > Two blocks that one can be triggered from afar and the other lasting a few seconds at most before going on cooldown. > > > > > > Please tell me, what is going to compensate war if you take away something? Because you come off as the type of person to simply nerf something and give nothing in return. > > > > Warrior has a higher block-uptime than both Core Guardian and Dragonhunter. They also have about 8k more base health and evade-frames on their skills. (GS3). They also have access to vigor, which guardian doesn't, more gap closers and higher protection uptime (on Spellbreaker). > > So to answer your question, I would not give warrior anything to compensate. I would tell each and every one of them to simply get good and start dodging skills that other classes have had to dodge for the past 5 years. > > So we can just take aegis away from Guards and tell them to learn how to dodge as well, by that logic. > > And guardians may not have those things listed above, but they do have access to: > - Aegis, which is a lot more spammable on guardians > - Teleports, Who needs gap closers when you literally have access to hop to someone > - A very strong condi, Which can be utilized on their power buildd to add an extra bit more DPS > - Has an invul that can not only refresh your virtues , but is on a WAY shorter cooldown than either of the stances when traited > - Better and untouched condi build > - Better ranged weapons > - Better team support > - Overall better traits imo > - More build variety to counter the one or two builds that is meta on war right now > - More blocks, Because of aegis which can be applied back to back > - More CC in weapons > - Full condi cleanse, two smites to cleanse, heal on block, need I say more about your sustain? That's not even going into Firebrand. > - Your greatsword actuall ydoes more than war greatsword, because instead of having thousand blades and be rooted, you have whirling blades which NOT only break projectiles, but does a HUGE dps spike > - The only thing I will give you, is that indeed, wars have more base HP but good and competent guardian players will easily make up for it with the few tools listed above. > > I can go WAY further to break down on how guardians are actually probably more spoiled than even mesmers. Every single spec. You class has gotten the record or at least tying with the top most broken classes, and the last to get nerfed. You have been meta in ALL gamemodes. The only time you guys were not meta was in the way beginning of GW2 (which even then you ran celestials and still were pretty unkillable. I wasn't around for the start of vanilla so someone correct me) and technically during Dragonhunter era, but you guys rolfstomped ranked que front and back, and Naru (who was the god of pvp at the end of said season he was spamming Dragonhunter) dominated the ranked boards regardless of his unsportsmanlike actions. I will give it to you, Dragonhunter was not taken in Esports, but the fact they were crawling in ALL ranks said something about them in a solo/duo setting. > > So again, how about we take away all of those things listed above that guardians has for week and see how long you guys last without crying on the forums saying guard is too weak. This is why no one here could be on the balance team, you would butch the what little semblance we have left of balance into tatters. > what?? Take Aegis from Guard? lol Guard have lowest health pool dude, he cant face tank shit like war can, he is forced to go meditations to have a chance to fight, its allways have been like these. -How is Aegis spammable? Shield 4, F3, every 40 secs(30 if traited i believe) if F3 is not used, when affected by cc(30 sec cooldown passive trait)...i am missing something? this is not spammable at all lol, if you say Firebrand, then yeah, i agree, but core Guard cant spam Aegis. -Teleports...only 2, sword 2 and JI...you cant even try to compare a Guard on mobility with a War, Warrior is clearly superior on this. -Condi...guardian have only burn as source of condi damage, its only strong if the target have literally close to 0 condi removal...Warrior can negate all the burn by just swapping weapons. -Renewed Focus isnt on 90sec cooldown?? 70+secs when traited, and dont allow you do anything outside of moving and insta cast skills while channeling. the longest Stance is 60secs if I remember...not counting Juggernaut. -Guard have good condi build? Since when? For PvE maybe, but sPvP or WvW? -Kind of agree with better traits(Depends on the Trait line), but Warrior is the king of passives, he allready have high base health and armor, why would you give him even better traits. -How many builds guard have right now that are considered meta? Not talking about builds that you can make work to stomp less skilled players. -Again, core Guard dosent have more block, Firebrand can spam Aegis, but why would you do that? While in F3 tome you have 0 offencive...DH is the only that have actuals blocks, and even then, Warrior still have more and can negate DH's F3 with Signet... -CC? Shield, Staff, Hammer and Greatsword...and Axe if you cant Firebrand...Staff and Hammer are easy to dodge, and lets not forget that warrior have a passive stability too. - Yes, Guardians meditations does help a lot, even more against condi builds...but Warrior superior mobility, blocks, passive regeneration and imunity to damage(x2 by the way lol) make up for it....reason why you actually see Warrior being able to go Full Berzerker and still being able to compete, even if he dosent have teleports or stealth like Thief and Mesmer. - You can negate greatsword 2 by just running no dodge required...warrior greatsword is much better weapon overall, warrior greatsword 3 alone is better then everything that Guard greatsword have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilyanna.9361 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > @"Loop.8106" said: > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > > The only Invulnerability that i think is balanced is guadian Renewed Focus, long cooldown, cant attack during it and have no passive trait line that triggers it...but stuff like engi is invul is just beyond broken to me, allow the player to be really uncareful with what he is doing, since he have a disposal 2 invul(one active and other passive)...but for balance sake, if they would(which they wont) nerf the invulnerability skills, evades, blocks and things like Endure Pain and Berzerker Stance should also be nerfed. > > > > > > > > > > > @"plushiesoda.8150" said: > > > > > > in a world were over 800k healing on marauder gear, over 15 stacks of confusion in a 3s burst and AoE condition bombing are a thing, invulnerability ain't really much of an issue compared even to stability to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > I bet over half of the people voting for removing it from pvp main a power build... probably holosmith > > > > > > > > > > lol can you imagine Holosmith be able to survive a team fight(even a 1v1) without the invulnerability? > > > > > > > > So if warrior didn't have stances, then what do they have to defend against spike damage? > > > > > > > > Face tank? > > > > Two blocks that one can be triggered from afar and the other lasting a few seconds at most before going on cooldown. > > > > > > > > Please tell me, what is going to compensate war if you take away something? Because you come off as the type of person to simply nerf something and give nothing in return. > > > > > > Warrior has a higher block-uptime than both Core Guardian and Dragonhunter. They also have about 8k more base health and evade-frames on their skills. (GS3). They also have access to vigor, which guardian doesn't, more gap closers and higher protection uptime (on Spellbreaker). > > > So to answer your question, I would not give warrior anything to compensate. I would tell each and every one of them to simply get good and start dodging skills that other classes have had to dodge for the past 5 years. > > > > So we can just take aegis away from Guards and tell them to learn how to dodge as well, by that logic. > > > > And guardians may not have those things listed above, but they do have access to: > > - Aegis, which is a lot more spammable on guardians > > - Teleports, Who needs gap closers when you literally have access to hop to someone > > - A very strong condi, Which can be utilized on their power buildd to add an extra bit more DPS > > - Has an invul that can not only refresh your virtues , but is on a WAY shorter cooldown than either of the stances when traited > > - Better and untouched condi build > > - Better ranged weapons > > - Better team support > > - Overall better traits imo > > - More build variety to counter the one or two builds that is meta on war right now > > - More blocks, Because of aegis which can be applied back to back > > - More CC in weapons > > - Full condi cleanse, two smites to cleanse, heal on block, need I say more about your sustain? That's not even going into Firebrand. > > - Your greatsword actuall ydoes more than war greatsword, because instead of having thousand blades and be rooted, you have whirling blades which NOT only break projectiles, but does a HUGE dps spike > > - The only thing I will give you, is that indeed, wars have more base HP but good and competent guardian players will easily make up for it with the few tools listed above. > > > > I can go WAY further to break down on how guardians are actually probably more spoiled than even mesmers. Every single spec. You class has gotten the record or at least tying with the top most broken classes, and the last to get nerfed. You have been meta in ALL gamemodes. The only time you guys were not meta was in the way beginning of GW2 (which even then you ran celestials and still were pretty unkillable. I wasn't around for the start of vanilla so someone correct me) and technically during Dragonhunter era, but you guys rolfstomped ranked que front and back, and Naru (who was the god of pvp at the end of said season he was spamming Dragonhunter) dominated the ranked boards regardless of his unsportsmanlike actions. I will give it to you, Dragonhunter was not taken in Esports, but the fact they were crawling in ALL ranks said something about them in a solo/duo setting. > > > > So again, how about we take away all of those things listed above that guardians has for week and see how long you guys last without crying on the forums saying guard is too weak. This is why no one here could be on the balance team, you would butch the what little semblance we have left of balance into tatters. > > > > what?? Take Aegis from Guard? lol Guard have lowest health pool dude, he cant face tank kitten like war can, he is forced to go meditations to have a chance to fight, its allways have been like these. > -How is Aegis spammable? Shield 4, F3, every 40 secs(30 if traited i believe) if F3 is not used, when affected by cc(30 sec cooldown passive trait)...i am missing something? this is not spammable at all lol, if you say Firebrand, then yeah, i agree, but core Guard cant spam Aegis. > -Teleports...only 2, sword 2 and JI...you cant even try to compare a Guard on mobility with a War, Warrior is clearly superior on this. > -Condi...guardian have only burn as source of condi damage, its only strong if the target have literally close to 0 condi removal...Warrior can negate all the burn by just swapping weapons. > -Renewed Focus isnt on 90sec cooldown?? 70+secs when traited, and dont allow you do anything outside of moving and insta cast skills while channeling. the longest Stance is 60secs if I remember...not counting Juggernaut. > -Guard have good condi build? Since when? For PvE maybe, but sPvP or WvW? > -Kind of agree with better traits(Depends on the Trait line), but Warrior is the king of passives, he allready have high base health and armor, why would you give him even better traits. > -How many builds guard have right now that are considered meta? Not talking about builds that you can make work to stomp less skilled players. > -Again, core Guard dosent have more block, Firebrand can spam Aegis, but why would you do that? While in F3 tome you have 0 offencive...DH is the only that have actuals blocks, and even then, Warrior still have more and can negate DH's F3 with Signet... > -CC? Shield, Staff, Hammer and Greatsword...and Axe if you cant Firebrand...Staff and Hammer are easy to dodge, and lets not forget that warrior have a passive stability too. > - Yes, Guardians meditations does help a lot, even more against condi builds...but Warrior superior mobility, blocks, passive regeneration and imunity to damage(x2 by the way lol) make up for it....reason why you actually see Warrior being able to go Full Berzerker and still being able to compete, even if he dosent have teleports or stealth like Thief and Mesmer. > - You can negate greatsword 2 by just running no dodge required...warrior greatsword is much better weapon overall, warrior greatsword 3 alone is better then everything that Guard greatsword have. Things I have mentioned above were meta on guard, that's the issue. The only reason why they aren't any longer is because they are simply outdated/reworked. Warrior actually had a sever dry period where they weren't in PVP. Guardians never had that issue except the times stated above. If you take stances and passives away from. War what do they have? You said it's unfair to take Aegis away from guard, but is it fair to take passives away from a class that can only get condi cleanse through weapon swap and having resistance that can easily be corrupted? There are people here that even said they would take stances and passives away from war multiple times on many threads, and never even thought how actually defenseless War would be and quickly they would melt to condi. They have strong traits and solid skills sure, but that is because they HAVE to. They don't have a choice. Run around without stances and those passives, tell me how long you would last in a 5v5. Maybe in vanilla sure? But in PoF? Hell no. I'm npt a war main, so this is not me defending my own personal class, this is me trying to show it is unjustified to simply gut everything a class is based around by design. Becausw at the end of the day: People want their shit buffed, and want others to be nerfed. Which is a horrid way of thinking (unless it is something Rev or Ele which actually NEED some reworks/buffs/something right now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loop.8106 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > @"Loop.8106" said: > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > The only Invulnerability that i think is balanced is guadian Renewed Focus, long cooldown, cant attack during it and have no passive trait line that triggers it...but stuff like engi is invul is just beyond broken to me, allow the player to be really uncareful with what he is doing, since he have a disposal 2 invul(one active and other passive)...but for balance sake, if they would(which they wont) nerf the invulnerability skills, evades, blocks and things like Endure Pain and Berzerker Stance should also be nerfed. > > > > > > > > > @"plushiesoda.8150" said: > > > > > in a world were over 800k healing on marauder gear, over 15 stacks of confusion in a 3s burst and AoE condition bombing are a thing, invulnerability ain't really much of an issue compared even to stability to me. > > > > > > > > > > I bet over half of the people voting for removing it from pvp main a power build... probably holosmith > > > > > > > > lol can you imagine Holosmith be able to survive a team fight(even a 1v1) without the invulnerability? > > > > > > So if warrior didn't have stances, then what do they have to defend against spike damage? > > > > > > Face tank? > > > Two blocks that one can be triggered from afar and the other lasting a few seconds at most before going on cooldown. > > > > > > Please tell me, what is going to compensate war if you take away something? Because you come off as the type of person to simply nerf something and give nothing in return. > > > > Warrior has a higher block-uptime than both Core Guardian and Dragonhunter. They also have about 8k more base health and evade-frames on their skills. (GS3). They also have access to vigor, which guardian doesn't, more gap closers and higher protection uptime (on Spellbreaker). > > So to answer your question, I would not give warrior anything to compensate. I would tell each and every one of them to simply get good and start dodging skills that other classes have had to dodge for the past 5 years. > > So we can just take aegis away from Guards and tell them to learn how to dodge as well, by that logic. > > And guardians may not have those things listed above, but they do have access to: > - Aegis, which is a lot more spammable on guardians > - Teleports, Who needs gap closers when you literally have access to hop to someone > - A very strong condi, Which can be utilized on their power buildd to add an extra bit more DPS > - Has an invul that can not only refresh your virtues , but is on a WAY shorter cooldown than either of the stances when traited > - Better and untouched condi build > - Better ranged weapons > - Better team support > - Overall better traits imo > - More build variety to counter the one or two builds that is meta on war right now > - More blocks, Because of aegis which can be applied back to back > - More CC in weapons > - Full condi cleanse, two smites to cleanse, heal on block, need I say more about your sustain? That's not even going into Firebrand. > - Your greatsword actuall ydoes more than war greatsword, because instead of having thousand blades and be rooted, you have whirling blades which NOT only break projectiles, but does a HUGE dps spike > - The only thing I will give you, is that indeed, wars have more base HP but good and competent guardian players will easily make up for it with the few tools listed above. > > I can go WAY further to break down on how guardians are actually probably more spoiled than even mesmers. Every single spec. You class has gotten the record or at least tying with the top most broken classes, and the last to get nerfed. You have been meta in ALL gamemodes. The only time you guys were not meta was in the way beginning of GW2 (which even then you ran celestials and still were pretty unkillable. I wasn't around for the start of vanilla so someone correct me) and technically during Dragonhunter era, but you guys rolfstomped ranked que front and back, and Naru (who was the god of pvp at the end of said season he was spamming Dragonhunter) dominated the ranked boards regardless of his unsportsmanlike actions. I will give it to you, Dragonhunter was not taken in Esports, but the fact they were crawling in ALL ranks said something about them in a solo/duo setting. > > So again, how about we take away all of those things listed above that guardians has for week and see how long you guys last without crying on the forums saying guard is too weak. This is why no one here could be on the balance team, you would butch the what little semblance we have left of balance into tatters. > I guess I will merit you with a response. > - Aegis, which is a lot more spammable on guardians Yes, Aegis is spammable on FIREBRAND. It's not spammable on Guardians nor DH. DH has Shield 4, cc trait and cc stunbreak. Core guard has only the passive / Active f3. > - Teleports, Who needs gap closers when you literally have access to hop to someone Sword 2 is on a 10 second cooldown and a 600 range. This is indeed a very good gap-closer. JI is 1200 range and a 45 second cooldown if not traited. None of these can be used to create a gap however. Which means a warrior has more flexibility. > - A very strong condi, Which can be utilized on their power buildd to add an extra bit more DPS > - Better and untouched condi build Don't even. Burn guard has never been viable (except for right after the spec patch back in I want to say June 2014? Also for untouched; Reduced the stacks of Ashes of the Just granted by this trait from 2 to 1. Reduced the internal cooldown on this trait from 10 seconds to 8 seconds. > - Has an invul that can not only refresh your virtues , but is on a WAY shorter cooldown than either of the stances when traited Renewed Focus (which is our elite skill) has a 115 second cooldown. 92 seconds if traited. This is longer than every single stance cooldown. You can use endure pain and Berserker stance 3 times in the time this skill is on cooldown. > - More blocks, Because of aegis which can be applied back to back Dragonhunter is the only spec of guard that actually has a block. It's only a frontal block which blocks for 4 seconds (traited) on a 62 second cooldown (also traited). Which also has a casting time. > - Better ranged weapons The only ranged weapon Guardians has access to is Longbow. Scepter is the equivelant of Mesmer staff, it can't hit anything on long range. All in all, I do think Firebrands are grossly overpowered. I think on-release Dragonhunter was slightly overtuned. Nowhere close to what Heralds and Bunker mesmers used to be though. Its funny that you brought Dragonhunters up as an example. Naru was indeed rank 1 on NA. However, you didnt have a single Dragonhunter player in the top 10 on the EU side of things from Season 1 (old amber -> legendary leaderboards) to whenever Cookie went to top ... I want to say 15 as highest? Dragonhunters also lost 1v1s vs Condi Warriors, broke even against power. They lost to Druids, they lost to Scrappers. They lost to Heralds (both viper and power). They lost every 2v2 fight which had an enemy ele present in them. So yes, Dragonhunters were good. But no-where near the god-tier you're desribing them to be in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loop.8106 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > **but is it fair to take passives away from a class that can only get condi cleanse through weapon swap** This is false. You have Signet of Stamina which is a full clear. You have shouts which cleanse. (Shake it Off!) You have traits which additionally cleanse on shouts (warhorn skills included). You do have access to plenty of condition cleanse. You have just been to spoiled to ever use them since resistance became a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ario.8964 Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 > @"Loop.8106" said: > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > **but is it fair to take passives away from a class that can only get condi cleanse through weapon swap** > This is false. You have Signet of Stamina which is a full clear. You have shouts which cleanse. (Shake it Off!) You have traits which additionally cleanse on shouts (warhorn skills included). You do have access to plenty of condition cleanse. You have just been to spoiled to ever use them since resistance became a thing. > People can't afford to use them with builds like 1 shot valk guard running around. The damage in this game is so high if you run a war build without any sort of damage/condi/cc immunity you will not be successful by any means unless you are going up against people who have been playing the game less than 2 weeks. So while condi clear is AVAILABLE it isn't USABLE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kako.1930 Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 The only invulns that I don't mind are the elite meditation for guardians and the utilities mist form and elixir s. The reason is that they have long cooldowns and make it so that you can't perform new actions while invulnerable. The passive elixir s on top of the utility is kind of obnoxious in my opinion though, and all of the others are just so passive that they might as well be renamed to "[profession's crutch]." I prefer active defenses that make it so that you have to dedicate to defending yourself and sacrifice your offense as a result rather than just pushing a key and being invulnerable for a while and sacrificing nothing for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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