A lot of classes and builds are not wanted in parties/squads

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > Fair enough. Just don't complain you can't get into parties because the majority of people running T4 want to relax and do it quickly, so they ask for "meta" comps. Because, nothing's more relaxed than playing with a group that has proper DPS and knows what they're doing.

> >

> > No. No one's imposing anything, least of all me.

>

> I don't complain about parties, so yeah, pretty unimposing stance on team comps.

>

> And you don't think you're imposing in this regard? Not picking on you but you seem so very defensive about it...at some point, if you have a preference that you like to share, you're going to impose it somehow and saying "So yes, those people are imposing their lack of drive on me and the rest of the group, and spoiling our game experience. " usually comes with the caveat that you're imposing a level of "drive" to your party members. What "drive" could mean is obviously going to be fluid for your argument, but in the context of this thread and in relation to my quotes and posts, it likely relates to non-meta builds in non-meta environments. So a guy wants to use celesial ele in open-world, LW, maybe a dungeon or guild event but that's considered "not enough drive" for an unrelated meta-environment? Hmm, that doesn't sit well with me...

>

Here's the thing, and people don't seem to understand this. There's 2 tiers of fractals that everyone can do on their sleep. The only tier people take seriously is T4.

If people don't want to take the game seriously. They have those alternatives. I'm not imposing anything to anyone. I don't put any restrictions on anyone's gameplay. That is until they restrict mine. When they do so, i vote for a kick.

Now, and another thing that people that complain about elitism don't seem to understand is that. Not giving a damn about your build, is not compatible with doing T4, Challenge Modes and Raids. Those are all amped up to 11 and are hard by default.

Lets say this is any other game, a single play game for example. If you don't want to bother too much with mechanics, and theorycrafting, do you play the game in Hard? No you play in easy. So why the hell do people seem to believe that they should be playing Hard mode with the same effort they'd put on in easy mode.

 

You guys didn't go onto a post about Open world talking about Cele. You came to a thread about party/squads and more specifically about fractals, and so-called elitism and rudeness from the fractal community. And i'm saying that in T4 fractals, those builds will be less viable, and not very optimal. If said players can drag their own weight and not get in the way of the group's progression, i don't care. But if they can't, then they are the toxic ones. They are the ones limiting other people's enjoyment through their attitudes.

 

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > But those _prima donnas_ aren't constantly running back to the forums asking for the game to be changed because they can't be bothered to change themselves. **And that's the main thing i take issue with in here. It's not that people play a certain way. Its that they refuse to adapt to the circumstances, and just want the circumstances to be adapted to them.**

> >

>

> How do you know that? I mean, yeah, I can definitely see your observations as part of the examples, but there are definitely primadonnas complaining on the forums, whining about being kicked or "carrying" players they likely weren't actually carrying or begging for player exam features and so on and so forth (basically asking for features to harass other players or enforce their imposing level of play on everyone). And to me, it's not about people playing a certain way either, but hinges on the circumstances of adaptation. The game has shifted to being abnormal to naturally learn how to play certain instances, to watching youtube videos and guides first. That removes over half the fun of what makes a game interesting, challenging the player's ability to observe and adapt on the fly. And people wonder why a lot of players never get better, the environment doesn't facilitate actually becoming "good", only copying others...but that is way off topic.

>

I've never seen a single thread about asking for anything that limits players from joining anything. There used to be ones to ask to make sure that a player had enough AR to join fractals. We have those. Other than that, the very rare occasions where people even consider asking for stuff like gear checks or anything of the like get shot down.

And Strawmen aside, that's not the discussion here... The discussion here, and the one that keeps popping up on raids and fractals, are people that don't bother to put in the basic work to get onto high tier content keep complaining they are being excluded without thinking the solution rests on their shoulders.

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > I'm not saying you're not enjoying it without meta. I'm saying that by never pushing yourself to play your class to full potential, you're basically playing on a numbed out version of ele.

> > But to each his own. If you want to play like that, do so.

>

> Again, this isn't a Shonen Anime...

No, nor is the concept of trying to improve yourself. I don't know you, and honestly, i don't think i care to. But if you think that self betterment isn't something you should always look for...

Or do you think that all those Gold medallist athletes were born with a medal on their neck, or that any artist, craftsman, etc of any renown got there because of some sort of fairy godmother?

Sure it's a game, and people want to relax, yadda, yadda, but the same still applies, especially given the attitudes. If they want to play the hard, top tier content, **prepare** so they can play that content. Don't expect that just because they own an account of the game, and a lvl 80 character, people should just carry them through the content regardless of how much worse the experience becomes for them. Because that's pretty much what's being suggested here.

 

No one in the game owes any other person any sort of access to their parties or communities.

No classes are being excluded, only attitudes.

 

 

[FrizzFreston.5290]

I... would literally just make my own group and go forth with that. The only problem being where people start "kicking for totally valid reasons" because there's no party leader.

 

I never ever would take raids or fractals in this game as something that should be taken "seriously". I want to play, I take what I want to take, and I wouldn't ask for some setup up to do something over and over and over in the same way every single time. It's basically making the game even more grindy than it needs to be in my opinion.

 

Meta is simply boring.

 

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> I... would literally just make my own group and go forth with that. The only problem being where people start "kicking for totally valid reasons" because there's no party leader.

>

> I never ever would take raids or fractals in this game as something that should be taken "seriously". I want to play, I take what I want to take, and I wouldn't ask for some setup up to do something over and over and over in the same way every single time. It's basically making the game even more grindy than it needs to be in my opinion.

>

> Meta is simply boring.

>

 

Well, if you're kicked on a totally random party, you pissed off 3-4 other guys, since it requires a majority vote.

You know what's, not boring, frustrating and aggravating? People who drag down 4 other people becase "meta is boring". You know what meta also is? Effective.

This is what a lot of you seem to not understand: **Your performance doesn't affect just you. It affects 4 other guys along with you.**

 

> @"Lilyanna.9361" said:

>

> People be looking into what these classes has the potential to do instead of either

> A: Just glueing themselves to metabattle or whatever site that does the number crunching for them

> B: Reverting to a build that legit does nothing except pet your own ego.

>

> You can still be slightly off-meta while still being viable. It's possible. I've done it, a lot of people do it, and in the long run it makes a lot of those specific people happier if they took the time to sit down and do the number crunching.

>

> The zerk heads that gets one-shot by the mobs even when he claims he's practiced for 5+ years or the meathead that has abyssmal DPS and says he's actually doing something are both viable complaints. It feels nice to be on the middle ground and not have to worry about such trivial things. Just boot up the game and go.

You! I wish everyone was like you!

[Leo G.4501]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> No, nor is the concept of trying to improve yourself. I don't know you, and honestly, i don't think i care to. But if you think that self betterment isn't something you should always look for...

> Or do you think that all those Gold medallist athletes were born with a medal on their neck, or that any artist, craftsman, etc of any renown got there because of some sort of fairy godmother?

> Sure it's a game, and people want to relax, yadda, yadda, but the same still applies, especially given the attitudes. If they want to play the hard, top tier content, **prepare** so they can play that content. Don't expect that just because they own an account of the game, and a lvl 80 character, people should just carry them through the content regardless of how much worse the experience becomes for them. Because that's pretty much what's being suggested here.

>

> No one in the game owes any other person any sort of access to their parties or communities.

> No classes are being excluded, only attitudes.

>

>

 

I don't disagree with the other points you make (mainly that some of it is more off topic than on) but I still feel you're not absorbing the point of the quoted. You bring up self-betterment and athletes/artists/etc but don't understand that video games, in and of themselves, when pushed to the degree you're talking about, *isn't* self-betterment. In fact, video games are in the category of hobbies shared by visual media, social media and sex; they're more destructive hobbies than productive. At least the artists/athletes may improve a marketable skill or improve their health. Putting more time, more effort, more focus, more stress into video games can be counter to what they exist for...then there are those that simply have hardware of physical limitations. This isn't me saying accept such players into your high level fractals with open arms or anything, but moreso illuminating the reason why MMOs are in the situation that they are now; players take these games *way* too seriously therefore serious attitudes are are seemingly always required for specialized content.

 

[Vulf.3098]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> Well, if you're kicked on a totally random party, you pissed off 3-4 other guys, since it requires a majority vote.

> You know what's, not boring, frustrating and aggravating? People who drag down 4 other people becase "meta is boring". You know what meta also is? Effective.

> This is what a lot of you seem to not understand: **Your performance doesn't affect just you. It affects 4 other guys along with you.**

 

I have kicked more people from my fractal groups for whining about not running a Druid or a Chrono than I do for low performance. People already start judging your performance before you even enter the first fractal because you are in the group as a scourge or a heal ele. Running a weird build is a completely separate issue but specific specs being ridiculed is something that should be unacceptable.

 

Druid/Chrono is not even the best to have if you are going for speed runs but people want them because of the varying differences in player skill when you pug which can not really be addressed by Anet without nerfing both Druid and Chrono.

 

 

 

 

[Lilyanna.9361]

> @"Vulf.3098" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > Well, if you're kicked on a totally random party, you pissed off 3-4 other guys, since it requires a majority vote.

> > You know what's, not boring, frustrating and aggravating? People who drag down 4 other people becase "meta is boring". You know what meta also is? Effective.

> > This is what a lot of you seem to not understand: **Your performance doesn't affect just you. It affects 4 other guys along with you.**

>

> I have kicked more people from my fractal groups for whining about not running a Druid or a Chrono than I do for low performance. People already start judging your performance before you even enter the first fractal because you are in the group as a scourge or a heal ele. Running a weird build is a completely separate issue but specific specs being ridiculed is something that should be unacceptable.

>

> Druid/Chrono is not even the best to have if you are going for speed runs but people want them because of the varying differences in player skill when you pug which can not really be addressed by Anet without nerfing both Druid and Chrono.

>

>

>

>

 

I'm gonna be 100 percent honest.

 

In my recent picking up of my Chrono, which is only in Cleric and Giver's (cheap version of minstrel's). Even in a cheaper set up like that I am still improving the other team's DPS because how stupidly easy the rotation is. #PermaAlacrity

 

Druid is in the same boat. People demand it because it's easier to pick up and use at any time, the rotation is stupidly simple and a solid pick. It can heal and give boons while pumping out damage.

 

Since these two have ridiculously easy rotations people assume others are just going to automatically have one in the back somewhere. Not everyone has like 15 alts like I do, which is their mistake on assuming that, but I can understand why people want the classes so badly.

 

And both Chrono and Druid have been nerfed several times as it is. It's not that their dumb strong, they just carry unique mechanics along with beautiful synergy with their core traitlines. If anything, the other classes needs to be buffed to have that same smooth synergy.

[Vulf.3098]

People demand druid and chrono for the QoL and the massive amount of room for error they allow in the group. Doesn't have anything to do with how easy the rotation is. I have both a druid and a chrono but find them dull and boring to play.

 

 

[Lilyanna.9361]

It partially does along with the things you said.

 

Your personal view on whether it is boring or not, is you own, but people do pick up builds for both QoL and ease sakes on the player that's playing.

[Vulf.3098]

> @"Lilyanna.9361" said:

> It partially does along with the things you said.

>

> Your personal view on whether it is boring or not, is you own, but people do pick up builds for both QoL and ease sakes on the player that's playing.

 

It doesn't because no spec rotation in this game is particularly hard.

[Lilyanna.9361]

> @"Vulf.3098" said:

> > @"Lilyanna.9361" said:

> > It partially does along with the things you said.

> >

> > Your personal view on whether it is boring or not, is you own, but people do pick up builds for both QoL and ease sakes on the player that's playing.

>

> It doesn't because no spec rotation in this game is particularly hard.

 

To you.

Doesn't mean other people feel the same way.

 

People would cry over Condi Engie or Weaver rotation.

 

Everyone's mmo experience is different.

[Vulf.3098]

> @"Lilyanna.9361" said:

> > @"Vulf.3098" said:

> > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said:

> > > It partially does along with the things you said.

> > >

> > > Your personal view on whether it is boring or not, is you own, but people do pick up builds for both QoL and ease sakes on the player that's playing.

> >

> > It doesn't because no spec rotation in this game is particularly hard.

>

> To you.

> Doesn't mean other people feel the same way.

>

> People would cry over Condi Engie or Weaver rotation.

>

> Everyone's mmo experience is different.

 

It doesn't matter how other people feel because specs are not balanced around how easy or difficult their rotations are.

[Warcry.1596]

I see these and usually just wait for the right group for me. I try to complete T4s daily and 99 and 100 cms. I use a power necro. But they see my title and disregard that.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > I... would literally just make my own group and go forth with that. The only problem being where people start "kicking for totally valid reasons" because there's no party leader.

> >

> > I never ever would take raids or fractals in this game as something that should be taken "seriously". I want to play, I take what I want to take, and I wouldn't ask for some setup up to do something over and over and over in the same way every single time. It's basically making the game even more grindy than it needs to be in my opinion.

> >

> > Meta is simply boring.

> >

>

> Well, if you're kicked on a totally random party, you pissed off 3-4 other guys, since it requires a majority vote.

> You know what's, not boring, frustrating and aggravating? People who drag down 4 other people becase "meta is boring". You know what meta also is? Effective.

> This is what a lot of you seem to not understand: **Your performance doesn't affect just you. It affects 4 other guys along with you.**

>

I didnt mention performance. And I only meant kicking where people claim they have a valid reason while basically having no understanding beyond something not being meta.

 

Plus the solution here is the same as those complaining that people want meta only. Make your own group if youre hellbound on meta builds only. Dont put your religion called meta on other players in groups that dont call out for it.

 

Seriously. You dont want non meta players, who supposedly drag you down in your meta group then dont be a hypocrit and be that guy claiming meta only is the only way and everyone who doesnt follow isnt worthy of lootheaven.

 

I personally don't come across many problems just following what people ask for. I just find it hilarious when people believe sitting in LFG for hours waiting for meta is somehow more effective use of time than going the less optimal route.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

To all saying "create your own group". Unfortunately this is not a solution. Anet never implemented party leader system making it impossible to "own" a group. Let's say I want to play power reaper for my fractal run and I start my own LFG. 2 others will join, see my GS and kick me. So what I made my LFG if it can be hijacked in a matter of seconds?

[Vulf.3098]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> To all saying "create your own group". Unfortunately this is not a solution. Anet never implemented party leader system making it impossible to "own" a group. Let's say I want to play power reaper for my fractal run and I start my own LFG. 2 others will join, see my GS and kick me. So what I made my LFG if it can be hijacked in a matter of seconds?

 

It is pretty stupid yeah. LFG in this game needs a 100% remake.

Luckily I can do fractals with 3 or more people so if people join my group and start complaining they are asked to leave or get kicked.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > I... would literally just make my own group and go forth with that. The only problem being where people start "kicking for totally valid reasons" because there's no party leader.

> > >

> > > I never ever would take raids or fractals in this game as something that should be taken "seriously". I want to play, I take what I want to take, and I wouldn't ask for some setup up to do something over and over and over in the same way every single time. It's basically making the game even more grindy than it needs to be in my opinion.

> > >

> > > Meta is simply boring.

> > >

> >

> > Well, if you're kicked on a totally random party, you pissed off 3-4 other guys, since it requires a majority vote.

> > You know what's, not boring, frustrating and aggravating? People who drag down 4 other people becase "meta is boring". You know what meta also is? Effective.

> > This is what a lot of you seem to not understand: **Your performance doesn't affect just you. It affects 4 other guys along with you.**

> >

> I didnt mention performance. And I only meant kicking where people claim they have a valid reason while basically having no understanding beyond something not being meta.

>

> Plus the solution here is the same as those complaining that people want meta only. Make your own group if youre hellbound on meta builds only. Dont put your religion called meta on other players in groups that dont call out for it.

>

> Seriously. You dont want non meta players, who supposedly drag you down in your meta group then dont be a hypocrit and be that guy claiming meta only is the only way and everyone who doesnt follow isnt worthy of lootheaven.

>

> I personally don't come across many problems just following what people ask for. I just find it hilarious when people believe sitting in LFG for hours waiting for meta is somehow more effective use of time than going the less optimal route.

 

Here you go putting words in my mouth. I've said numerous times that i don't care about meta. I care that people don't get in the way of completing objectives in a reasonable fashion. I'll carry anyone and their dead grandmothers if they ask me, as long as the run goes smoothly. If we start wiping more than reasonable (hey sometimes you hit a snag), the group starts looking to weed out the weak link.

And what this thread is about is claiming that some classes aren't wanted, which is **FALSE**, also others suggest randomized groups so that the people that don't put in a effort to be of value to the group can go without problems.

 

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > > I... would literally just make my own group and go forth with that. The only problem being where people start "kicking for totally valid reasons" because there's no party leader.

> > > >

> > > > I never ever would take raids or fractals in this game as something that should be taken "seriously". I want to play, I take what I want to take, and I wouldn't ask for some setup up to do something over and over and over in the same way every single time. It's basically making the game even more grindy than it needs to be in my opinion.

> > > >

> > > > Meta is simply boring.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Well, if you're kicked on a totally random party, you pissed off 3-4 other guys, since it requires a majority vote.

> > > You know what's, not boring, frustrating and aggravating? People who drag down 4 other people becase "meta is boring". You know what meta also is? Effective.

> > > This is what a lot of you seem to not understand: **Your performance doesn't affect just you. It affects 4 other guys along with you.**

> > >

> > I didnt mention performance. And I only meant kicking where people claim they have a valid reason while basically having no understanding beyond something not being meta.

> >

> > Plus the solution here is the same as those complaining that people want meta only. Make your own group if youre hellbound on meta builds only. Dont put your religion called meta on other players in groups that dont call out for it.

> >

> > Seriously. You dont want non meta players, who supposedly drag you down in your meta group then dont be a hypocrit and be that guy claiming meta only is the only way and everyone who doesnt follow isnt worthy of lootheaven.

> >

> > I personally don't come across many problems just following what people ask for. I just find it hilarious when people believe sitting in LFG for hours waiting for meta is somehow more effective use of time than going the less optimal route.

>

> Here you go putting words in my mouth. I've said numerous times that i don't care about meta. I care that people don't get in the way of completing objectives in a reasonable fashion. I'll carry anyone and their dead grandmothers if they ask me, as long as the run goes smoothly. If we start wiping more than reasonable (hey sometimes you hit a snag), the group starts looking to weed out the weak link.

> And what this thread is about is claiming that some classes aren't wanted, which is **FALSE**, also others suggest randomized groups so that the people that don't put in a effort to be of value to the group can go without problems.

>

 

You seem to misunderstand what I'm writing as some personal issue while I'm talking about the topic general. I meant to "you" in the general sense rather than "you" as a person.

[Torolan.5816]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

 

> > Again, this isn't a Shonen Anime...

> No, nor is the concept of trying to improve yourself. I don't know you, and honestly, i don't think i care to. But if you think that self betterment isn't something you should always look for...

> Or do you think that all those Gold medallist athletes were born with a medal on their neck, or that any artist, craftsman, etc of any renown got there because of some sort of fairy godmother?

> Sure it's a game, and people want to relax, yadda, yadda, but the same still applies, especially given the attitudes. If they want to play the hard, top tier content, **prepare** so they can play that content. Don't expect that just because they own an account of the game, and a lvl 80 character, people should just carry them through the content regardless of how much worse the experience becomes for them. Because that's pretty much what's being suggested here.

>

> No one in the game owes any other person any sort of access to their parties or communities.

> No classes are being excluded, only attitudes.

>

>

 

*Alexander the Great defeated all of his much more experienced opponents with tactical sense, military genius and his superior close combat fighting skills. He did not practice how to conquer the world, he just did it.

*An accomplished artist with modern tools needs months to soso copy the simplest cherubim of Michelangelo. And I am not talking about his lates, greatests works but the stuff he made to come into business.

*Heinz Guderian invented the Blitz which took Europe by storm in less than 3 years despite being a rather low rank commanding officer. He wrote the highly acclaimed by both allies and axis powers Beware, Tanks! book at the age of 49 in the rank of a Colonel. Montogomery or Patton probably could have never written anything halfway comparable if they would have devoted their entire life to it.

*Nobody of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozarts teachers could ever touch him talent and success wise despite his father being a very accomplished musician himself. He gave his first public performance at the age of 6.

*Usain Bolt ran his chosen tracks all in record time. People could teach him how to breathe correctly, but they could not teach him how to run that fast.

*Brock Lesnar won the UFC championship with a crippling illness, played professional football and sprang a moonsault from a top rope despite being a mountain of a man. Each individual task is already very taxing to learn and needs talent, but a jack of all trades in this regard is supremenly rare.

Etc etc...

 

If you think talent alone cannot make you, you are just wrong. Great artists need talent more than anything else, else wise they are only craftsmen(which is not bad itself). Self improvement can only bring you so far until you reach your talent barrier. Therefore I find it pretty weird when someone advocates self betterment in a non-social issue where you should indeed strife to better yourself in general.

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> There's also another angle to consider. While this game shouldn't feature "the trinity", I think there's room to have some encounters where it's a viable strategy to use a healer (why else even have a druid spec?) or even a "tank" of sorts (although tanking only works in this game when they intentionally design transparent threat mechanics such as "go after the guy with the most toughness"). The catch is that "viable" should not translate into "mandatory".

 

People who would put restrictive LFGs like that only care about what is optimal not what is viable. When having is better than not then it becomes mandatory when considering the optimal approach.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

>

> > > Again, this isn't a Shonen Anime...

> > No, nor is the concept of trying to improve yourself. I don't know you, and honestly, i don't think i care to. But if you think that self betterment isn't something you should always look for...

> > Or do you think that all those Gold medallist athletes were born with a medal on their neck, or that any artist, craftsman, etc of any renown got there because of some sort of fairy godmother?

> > Sure it's a game, and people want to relax, yadda, yadda, but the same still applies, especially given the attitudes. If they want to play the hard, top tier content, **prepare** so they can play that content. Don't expect that just because they own an account of the game, and a lvl 80 character, people should just carry them through the content regardless of how much worse the experience becomes for them. Because that's pretty much what's being suggested here.

> >

> > No one in the game owes any other person any sort of access to their parties or communities.

> > No classes are being excluded, only attitudes.

> >

> >

>

> *Alexander the Great defeated all of his much more experienced opponents with tactical sense, military genius and his superior close combat fighting skills. He did not practice how to conquer the world, he just did it.

> *An accomplished artist with modern tools needs months to soso copy the simplest cherubim of Michelangelo. And I am not talking about his lates, greatests works but the stuff he made to come into business.

> *Heinz Guderian invented the Blitz which took Europe by storm in less than 3 years despite being a rather low rank commanding officer. He wrote the highly acclaimed by both allies and axis powers Beware, Tanks! book at the age of 49 in the rank of a Colonel. Montogomery or Patton probably could have never written anything halfway comparable if they would have devoted their entire life to it.

> *Nobody of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozarts teachers could ever touch him talent and success wise despite his father being a very accomplished musician himself. He gave his first public performance at the age of 6.

> *Usain Bolt ran his chosen tracks all in record time. People could teach him how to breathe correctly, but they could not teach him how to run that fast.

> *Brock Lesnar won the UFC championship with a crippling illness, played professional football and sprang a moonsault from a top rope despite being a mountain of a man. Each individual task is already very taxing to learn and needs talent, but a jack of all trades in this regard is supremenly rare.

> Etc etc...

>

> If you think talent alone cannot make you, you are just wrong. Great artists need talent more than anything else, else wise they are only craftsmen(which is not bad itself). Self improvement can only bring you so far until you reach your talent barrier. Therefore I find it pretty weird when someone advocates self betterment in a non-social issue where you should indeed strife to better yourself in general.

 

If you think that none of those guys studied and prepared, and failed tons of times before getting to that level... Dude you're in for a big life lesson one of these days.

 

_Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not: the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent._

Calvin Coolidge

 

[Torolan.5816]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Torolan.5816" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> >

> > > > Again, this isn't a Shonen Anime...

> > > No, nor is the concept of trying to improve yourself. I don't know you, and honestly, i don't think i care to. But if you think that self betterment isn't something you should always look for...

> > > Or do you think that all those Gold medallist athletes were born with a medal on their neck, or that any artist, craftsman, etc of any renown got there because of some sort of fairy godmother?

> > > Sure it's a game, and people want to relax, yadda, yadda, but the same still applies, especially given the attitudes. If they want to play the hard, top tier content, **prepare** so they can play that content. Don't expect that just because they own an account of the game, and a lvl 80 character, people should just carry them through the content regardless of how much worse the experience becomes for them. Because that's pretty much what's being suggested here.

> > >

> > > No one in the game owes any other person any sort of access to their parties or communities.

> > > No classes are being excluded, only attitudes.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > *Alexander the Great defeated all of his much more experienced opponents with tactical sense, military genius and his superior close combat fighting skills. He did not practice how to conquer the world, he just did it.

> > *An accomplished artist with modern tools needs months to soso copy the simplest cherubim of Michelangelo. And I am not talking about his lates, greatests works but the stuff he made to come into business.

> > *Heinz Guderian invented the Blitz which took Europe by storm in less than 3 years despite being a rather low rank commanding officer. He wrote the highly acclaimed by both allies and axis powers Beware, Tanks! book at the age of 49 in the rank of a Colonel. Montogomery or Patton probably could have never written anything halfway comparable if they would have devoted their entire life to it.

> > *Nobody of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozarts teachers could ever touch him talent and success wise despite his father being a very accomplished musician himself. He gave his first public performance at the age of 6.

> > *Usain Bolt ran his chosen tracks all in record time. People could teach him how to breathe correctly, but they could not teach him how to run that fast.

> > *Brock Lesnar won the UFC championship with a crippling illness, played professional football and sprang a moonsault from a top rope despite being a mountain of a man. Each individual task is already very taxing to learn and needs talent, but a jack of all trades in this regard is supremenly rare.

> > Etc etc...

> >

> > If you think talent alone cannot make you, you are just wrong. Great artists need talent more than anything else, else wise they are only craftsmen(which is not bad itself). Self improvement can only bring you so far until you reach your talent barrier. Therefore I find it pretty weird when someone advocates self betterment in a non-social issue where you should indeed strife to better yourself in general.

>

> If you think that none of those guys studied and prepared, and failed tons of times before getting to that level... Dude you're in for a big life lesson one of these days.

>

> _Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not: the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent._

> Calvin Coolidge

>

 

The point is that each of these guys learned their craft(play the game in our example) and then their talent enabled them to break barriers other more experienced people did not even think off. Even if I were able to become 1000 years old, I would probably never be able to reach the greatness of Mozart(6 years at his first public public performance, how much time did he have to even understand a complex piece of music? How trained could he be? 2 years tutelage is not much in music, especially at an age where most children can´t even tie their shoes.) no matter how often I tried to write music like him.

 

Therefore the assumption that everyone can do everything at the same level if he is persistant enough is not correct. You can´t make a genius out of an average person through practice.

 

And speaking of people I think that talent played a major role in their success, what about Andy Warhol? The guy showed bean cans in different colors because he used to eat a lot of beans, and the art community is still unstoppable in praising him. How could he have practiced that? He was simply kissed by the muse.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

This is why I play ESO now.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Torolan.5816" said:

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > >

> > > > > Again, this isn't a Shonen Anime...

> > > > No, nor is the concept of trying to improve yourself. I don't know you, and honestly, i don't think i care to. But if you think that self betterment isn't something you should always look for...

> > > > Or do you think that all those Gold medallist athletes were born with a medal on their neck, or that any artist, craftsman, etc of any renown got there because of some sort of fairy godmother?

> > > > Sure it's a game, and people want to relax, yadda, yadda, but the same still applies, especially given the attitudes. If they want to play the hard, top tier content, **prepare** so they can play that content. Don't expect that just because they own an account of the game, and a lvl 80 character, people should just carry them through the content regardless of how much worse the experience becomes for them. Because that's pretty much what's being suggested here.

> > > >

> > > > No one in the game owes any other person any sort of access to their parties or communities.

> > > > No classes are being excluded, only attitudes.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > *Alexander the Great defeated all of his much more experienced opponents with tactical sense, military genius and his superior close combat fighting skills. He did not practice how to conquer the world, he just did it.

> > > *An accomplished artist with modern tools needs months to soso copy the simplest cherubim of Michelangelo. And I am not talking about his lates, greatests works but the stuff he made to come into business.

> > > *Heinz Guderian invented the Blitz which took Europe by storm in less than 3 years despite being a rather low rank commanding officer. He wrote the highly acclaimed by both allies and axis powers Beware, Tanks! book at the age of 49 in the rank of a Colonel. Montogomery or Patton probably could have never written anything halfway comparable if they would have devoted their entire life to it.

> > > *Nobody of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozarts teachers could ever touch him talent and success wise despite his father being a very accomplished musician himself. He gave his first public performance at the age of 6.

> > > *Usain Bolt ran his chosen tracks all in record time. People could teach him how to breathe correctly, but they could not teach him how to run that fast.

> > > *Brock Lesnar won the UFC championship with a crippling illness, played professional football and sprang a moonsault from a top rope despite being a mountain of a man. Each individual task is already very taxing to learn and needs talent, but a jack of all trades in this regard is supremenly rare.

> > > Etc etc...

> > >

> > > If you think talent alone cannot make you, you are just wrong. Great artists need talent more than anything else, else wise they are only craftsmen(which is not bad itself). Self improvement can only bring you so far until you reach your talent barrier. Therefore I find it pretty weird when someone advocates self betterment in a non-social issue where you should indeed strife to better yourself in general.

> >

> > If you think that none of those guys studied and prepared, and failed tons of times before getting to that level... Dude you're in for a big life lesson one of these days.

> >

> > _Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not: the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent._

> > Calvin Coolidge

> >

>

> The point is that each of these guys learned their craft(play the game in our example) and then their talent enabled them to break barriers other more experienced people did not even think off. Even if I were able to become 1000 years old, I would probably never be able to reach the greatness of Mozart(6 years at his first public public performance, how much time did he have to even understand a complex piece of music? How trained could he be? 2 years tutelage is not much in music, especially at an age where most children can´t even tie their shoes.) no matter how often I tried to write music like him.

>

> Therefore the assumption that everyone can do everything at the same level if he is persistant enough is not correct. You can´t make a genius out of an average person through practice.

>

> And speaking of people I think that talent played a major role in their success, what about Andy Warhol? The guy showed bean cans in different colors because he used to eat a lot of beans, and the art community is still unstoppable in praising him. How could he have practiced that? He was simply kissed by the muse.

 

I really wish you guys would stop comparing creative expression and complex mental challenges with MMOs. It's a poor comparison.

 

Playing video games is certainly a skill, it isn't comparable to even older games like Chess or Go whose rigid rules require mental acuity to win. Video games, mainly the ones with twitch reaction, require trial and error and repetition or following a general pattern. Even the best kaizo mario players die repeatedly to understand the rules of the level/game, which is the actual point of these types of games. Trial and error. If it isn't there, you move on.

 

As for the talent vs hard work, again, that doesn't translate to a game that is expected to be trial and error. It's not talent to have fewer errors and it's not work to overcome the trails. Regarding talent, a youtuber I enjoy watching asked his subscribers and it is something that is very much debated on both sides:

 

 

I feel there is merit to both and necessity for each side. You need talented individuals to awe and push boundaries and you need hard work because the majority doesn't have natural talent and it's motivation to the everyman and competition to the savants.

[Haishao.6851]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> To all saying "create your own group". Unfortunately this is not a solution. Anet never implemented party leader system making it impossible to "own" a group. Let's say I want to play power reaper for my fractal run and I start my own LFG. 2 others will join, see my GS and kick me. So what I made my LFG if it can be hijacked in a matter of seconds?

 

Let's say your worst case scenario story doesn't happen. You end up in a group and have fun instead of sad with no group.

Best case scenario usually happen a lot more often than worst case scenario. But if you prevent yourself of doing anything just IN CASE of what MAY happen, then you'll never do anything at all.

That doesn't mean it may never happen. But what you're doing now is never making a group, just in case it may happen once. So you're giving up at having hundreds of good experience, only because maybe some day you will get a bad one.

[Henry.5713]

People need to start looking at the bigger picture. Everything has it's place. You even brought up WvW, interestingly enough. Basically the place where everything that is not META for Fractals shines brightly. Chronomancers, druids and berserkers dominate in instanced PvE for their strengths. Scourges, firebrands, spellbreakers and heralds are musthaves for WvW squads. Other builds are most efficient when roaming or skirmishing while some end up being the core of every PvP team.

The idea to balance a game with a complex combat system such as this one to the degree where absolutely every build is equally efficient at every task is silly unless you are willing to sacrafice everything that makes any build unique.

 

There have been META builds and strategies for almost as long as the game has been out. Dungeon groups such as "4 warriors + 1 mesmer" for CoF1, Fractals power groups, countless of PvP compositions and competitive WvW squads. Just because you didn't play back then or never noticed doesn't mean that they didn't exist.

People started to understand how much of a difference proper builds can make a long time ago.

The META game is nothing more than the combined effort and experience of the playerbase. It is an ever evolving process. Changing constantly while being influenced by discoveries, practice, idea sharing and game balancing.

Most players are not blind. Quite honestly, others might be better judges of how well your favorite build performs than you are yourself because they do not have a subjective view on it or they might simply be far more experienced than you are. They might even understand that "everything works" and how easy most content actually is. It still does not mean that they would bring "everything" if they like to be quick and efficient.

The idea that anybody who'd focus on these type of builds only is just a blind follower of let's say qT is almost as silly as the idea that you have to copy them exactly to beat any PvE content.

 

I find it interesting that the same people who keep talking about their refusal to change only to please others and how they play "the way I like and for fun" are also the ones talking about changing the community and other people's view on things. Seems rather selfish and hypocritical to me.