Holosmith: Holographic Shockwave radius is too large for a launch!

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > I mean I don't understand why ppl complaining ... you're using a dodge to make dmg ... it's high risk - high reward

> >

> > But the fact being killed fast while being CC'd (since stunbreak aren't all an evade or an invul) must be frustrating . But hey men , that's how you're being usefull has a dps class that's not thief (or condi ... or condi thief) in PvP .

> >

> > The only problem for me ... is corona burst (traited with stab) being spamable (6 sec cd) but it's only 1 stack of stab ... a duration nerf could be a thing on the stab

>

> I'd Agree with this, but then Holo has 6s (2x3sec) of Invulnerability which can be enough to gain back the Dodge, especially when Vigor is mostly in effect by that time. Yet, since Holo/Engi can't do anything during Elixir S, then at least it's not unfair, it's just not that risky.

 

And during that seconds of invuln what do you do? You chase the holo and get owned like a noob by the bombs? Gain back your cooldowns as well instead of stepping into mine.

I dunno why but i never got killed my engis mines, I just dodge into them or don't walk into them, and after the engi wasted his invulns he is so vulnerable.

 

I mean really wanna compare the mines which are well visible on the ground with scourge shades? You don't have any clue when to dodge shades, they are all spammed constantly and on too low cd. But people complain of few mines dropped that you can simply avoid not chasing like a dog.

 

And yeah i am currently playing holo but i don't play mines because I don't like them.

[ArthurDent.9538]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> Only problem with holo is how much damage the mines do and that's not even a holo problem. That's a core problem. The mine damage should be nerfed and people probably shouldn't be able to dodge while in S for damage (this is all coming from an engi main and many other engis I've talked to agree with me) but if you touch anything else you will kill holo in pvp. The only thing keeping it playable is it's high damage and cc.

 

I think it isn't the mines that are problem but simply that there are now 2 grandmaster traits for engi that do damage on dodge roll. They need to do a decent amount of damage to justify their existence but when they both are used at the same time it becomes an excessive gimmicky burst. It is a lot like old revenant legend swap, equilibrium never did a ton of damage, neither did hydromancy or leeching sigils, but having all of them hit at the same time was a lot of instant damage for a skill that doesn't even deal any damage by default. Would rather see one of the traits simply reworked rather than being toned down so they don't do silly amounts of burst damage when stacked.

[Atmaweapon.7345]

Holographic shockwave does 391 base damage with a .96 coefficient. The only remarkable thing about its damage is that it automatically crits. Holosmith's auto attack has better scaling and that's only better than a ranged Ranger Longbow auto or Hammer Rev by about 10%.

 

Let's compare HS with Mug which deals 370 base with a 1.5 coefficient. It's basically the same damage so saying that a thief needs to land (an instant) Steal twice to deal equivalent damage is flat out false. Scepter Ele has two instant ranged attacks with a higher damage scaling that can snipe runners, one of which is an aoe that auto crits, but they aren't exactly obliterating groups with just that.

 

Also, non-utility mines are dodgeable and blockable. An evasion spamming DD can roll over all the mines without taking any damage

[Alatar.7364]

> @"Atmaweapon.7345" said:

> Holographic shockwave does 391 base damage with a .96 coefficient. The only remarkable thing about its damage is that it automatically crits. Holosmith's auto attack has better scaling and that's only better than a ranged Ranger Longbow auto or Hammer Rev by about 10%.

>

> Let's compare HS with Mug which deals 370 base with a 1.5 coefficient. It's basically the same damage so saying that a thief needs to land (an instant) Steal twice to deal equivalent damage is flat out false. Scepter Ele has two instant ranged attacks with a higher damage scaling that can snipe runners, one of which is an aoe that auto crits, but they aren't exactly obliterating groups with just that.

>

> Also, non-utility mines are dodgeable and blockable. An evasion spamming DD can roll over all the mines without taking any damage

 

Excuse me, where and when exactly did I say that Thief needs to land two Steals to do same dmg as Holographic Shockwave? I'd like a quote, bet it will be same fun as with whoknocks.

People should really stop this petty Demagogy in their favour.

 

[Atmaweapon.7345]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

 

> S/D Thiefs burst dmg is nowhere, nowhere, near Holos consistent and easily repetitive dmg, literally nowhere near. Thief would have to land both Steals and Several Larcenous Strikes to deal same dmg as Holo can do in two skills, being AoE at that.

> The Thiefs skill that hits you while evading is **weaker** than first skill of AA chain. While when Holo dodges and you are not even following him, you will get hit for up to 5k by mines. So Holo hits for 5k during Evade without player even following and Thief hits for 1k (with critics) while having to stay on target with a telegraphed skill.

 

 

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> Wait, are you telling me that 3 people getting one-shoted from 50% HP to 0% by half-a-map radius high Dmg hard CC skill that had no Energy from 10 other AoE spams, is not OK?

 

"Both Steals" indicate that you the Thief is using steal twice and "several Larcenous Strikes" is at least 3+ in response to "consistent and repetitive damage" so I'm ruling out Elite skills usage. Then you went on to complain about a half-a-map radius hard CC skill of which ONLY Holographic Shockwave fits the description given that Prime Light Beam isn't a radius attack and exaggerate it to be one-shotting people from 50% health. What else can be taken from these?

 

I mean, you could be talking about Grenade Barrage and Big-Ol-Bomb which deal higher damage, but those are core Engi abilities.

 

 

[Ario.8964]

> @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > Only problem with holo is how much damage the mines do and that's not even a holo problem. That's a core problem. The mine damage should be nerfed and people probably shouldn't be able to dodge while in S for damage (this is all coming from an engi main and many other engis I've talked to agree with me) but if you touch anything else you will kill holo in pvp. The only thing keeping it playable is it's high damage and cc.

>

> I think it isn't the mines that are problem but simply that there are now 2 grandmaster traits for engi that do damage on dodge roll. They need to do a decent amount of damage to justify their existence but when they both are used at the same time it becomes an excessive gimmicky burst. It is a lot like old revenant legend swap, equilibrium never did a ton of damage, neither did hydromancy or leeching sigils, but having all of them hit at the same time was a lot of instant damage for a skill that doesn't even deal any damage by default. Would rather see one of the traits simply reworked rather than being toned down so they don't do silly amounts of burst damage when stacked.

 

Which one would you rework and how? And assuming anet wants to take the easier path and not rework something then I think the mine damage would be what they should focus on nerfing. Damage- wise I get around 2.8k per mine (on crit) when I run it which when stacked 3 times and put with the thermal release valve trait can get me to around a 9k burst on avg with 1 dodge. Since my end goal is to see damage reduced everywhere in game I think you could justify up to but not exceeding a 50% nerf on the mines. I know it sounds like a lot but take into account that each mine would still hit for about 1.4k on avg and with thermal hitting 1.5-2k you are still able to get strong damage and melee punishment but it isn't like your own steal backstab combo just by dodging. Ofc engi may need some utility compensation in order to justify a heavy nerf like that but I think taking away the holo's reliance on dodge damage is a good direction to go.

[Ario.8964]

> @"Atmaweapon.7345" said:

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

>

> > S/D Thiefs burst dmg is nowhere, nowhere, near Holos consistent and easily repetitive dmg, literally nowhere near. Thief would have to land both Steals and Several Larcenous Strikes to deal same dmg as Holo can do in two skills, being AoE at that.

> > The Thiefs skill that hits you while evading is **weaker** than first skill of AA chain. While when Holo dodges and you are not even following him, you will get hit for up to 5k by mines. So Holo hits for 5k during Evade without player even following and Thief hits for 1k (with critics) while having to stay on target with a telegraphed skill.

>

>

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > Wait, are you telling me that 3 people getting one-shoted from 50% HP to 0% by half-a-map radius high Dmg hard CC skill that had no Energy from 10 other AoE spams, is not OK?

>

> "Both Steals" indicate that you the Thief is using steal twice and "several Larcenous Strikes" is at least 3+ in response to "consistent and repetitive damage" so I'm ruling out Elite skills usage. Then you went on to complain about a half-a-map radius hard CC skill of which ONLY Holographic Shockwave fits the description given that Prime Light Beam isn't a radius attack and exaggerate it to be one-shotting people from 50% health. What else can be taken from these?

>

> I mean, you could be talking about Grenade Barrage and Big-Ol-Bomb which deal higher damage, but those are core Engi abilities.

>

>

 

Nade nerf incoming?

[Alatar.7364]

> @"Atmaweapon.7345" said:

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

>

> > S/D Thiefs burst dmg is nowhere, nowhere, near Holos consistent and easily repetitive dmg, literally nowhere near. Thief would have to land both Steals and Several Larcenous Strikes to deal same dmg as Holo can do in two skills, being AoE at that.

> > The Thiefs skill that hits you while evading is **weaker** than first skill of AA chain. While when Holo dodges and you are not even following him, you will get hit for up to 5k by mines. So Holo hits for 5k during Evade without player even following and Thief hits for 1k (with critics) while having to stay on target with a telegraphed skill.

>

>

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > Wait, are you telling me that 3 people getting one-shoted from 50% HP to 0% by half-a-map radius high Dmg hard CC skill that had no Energy from 10 other AoE spams, is not OK?

>

> "Both Steals" indicate that you the Thief is using steal twice and "several Larcenous Strikes" is at least 3+ in response to "consistent and repetitive damage" so I'm ruling out Elite skills usage. Then you went on to complain about a half-a-map radius hard CC skill of which ONLY Holographic Shockwave fits the description given that Prime Light Beam isn't a radius attack and exaggerate it to be one-shotting people from 50% health. What else can be taken from these?

>

> I mean, you could be talking about Grenade Barrage and Big-Ol-Bomb which deal higher damage, but those are core Engi abilities.

>

>

 

Connecting two different posts of two different contents of separate reactions to two different people with two distinct intents to something that would fit your demagogical version even though it makes no sense to do so is funny at best.

 

"Thief would have to land both Steals and Several Larcenous Strikes to deal same dmg as Holo can do in two skills, being AoE at that. "

 

x

 

"Let's compare HS with Mug which deals 370 base with a 1.5 coefficient. It's basically the same damage so saying that a thief needs to land (an instant) Steal twice to deal equivalent damage (to above distinctly mentioning Holographical Shockwave by you) is flat out false."

 

Read it again please.

[Aktium.9506]

> @"Atmaweapon.7345" said:

> Holographic shockwave does 391 base damage

>

> Let's compare HS with Mug which deals 370 base

There is no such thing as base damage in GW2.

All damage is Wep Strength × Power × Coefficient ÷ Armor

[whoknocks.4935]

The only thing I agree is the ability to dodge while in elixir s. So you can still make damage somehow with a pure defensive ability which is invulnerability.

 

But mines are smaller versions of dh traps, plus they have a small radius, they are well visible, they are easy to dodge and they are blockable.

 

To me maybe happened once to walk into 1 or 2 bombs because of the rush of fight, but they didn't rekt me so hard because I simply stopped walking into the bombs that the engi was leaving behind.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Can you jump the shockwave? Could save a dodge... I mean a lot of pve skills can be jumped, even the dbl in wvw can be jumped over (not really tried it)

[Alatar.7364]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> Can you jump the shockwave? Could save a dodge... I mean a lot of pve skills can be jumped, even the dbl in wvw can be jumped over (not really tried it)

 

I think that would be way too drastic solution albeit Amusing =D

[Rodzynald.5897]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > A skill that is so obvious to dodge that the character almost autododge it tho.

> >

> > People still complain of holosmith kitten, one of the few balanced specs released and they wanna destroy it at any cost.

> >

> > There are bigger problems than a super easy to dodge skill visible even if the holo is stealthed up.

> >

> > Learn to play before complain.

>

> That would be fine if there were not like 4 other Skills that have to be Dodged in order to survive, all with a very repetitive Cooldown. By the time a player will have to dodge Two other insane DMG dealing skills, you'll have like One dodge Up.

> For example If a Thiefs burst is Dodged once, you will have plenty of time and no need to dodge again, while plenty of Holos skills have each potential dmg of Thiefs burst therefore not suffering from missing literally even half of them.

> I wish they were not CCing through walls, stones and basically all other obstructions at least.

 

You are both right. Holo is actually quite balanced in terms of damage to lasting in a fight ratio. They can melt stuff but they can get shred to pieces as well, no gimmicks and shenanigans beside invuln pots.

But, for example, a core guard has one clear burst skill (mighty blow) with a strong burst every 36 second (shield of wrath + all that other fancy stuff to stack retal), easy to see and counter if you see it coming . However, holo does exactly the same thing minus the wind-up (SoW) and mobility (judge's int), but every single burst skill hits hard like a truck and if you chain then wew boi, you get smashed into a pulp if you don't have any way to mitigate the power damage. It shouldn't be like that, but it has to be like that in current meta.

I would not touch holo if it comes down to their burst chains, this is what they have to do. I would rather smack their tasty passive invulnerability proc out of their hand because it's too cheap, that is the only thing. But even if it won't be changed, I am chill about holo as they are.

 

P.S.

Tho the radius and dealing damage through thin obstacles might be a tad bit overtuned. But let's remember, it would be hard to code it so that AoE doesn't affect players behind obstacles, I don't think if that is even possible, considering the spaghetti coding the first devs left.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > Can you jump the shockwave? Could save a dodge... I mean a lot of pve skills can be jumped, even the dbl in wvw can be jumped over (not really tried it)

>

> I think that would be way too drastic solution albeit Amusing =D

 

But at least it's funny and would be interesting in pvp tho XD (Context: i've been playing holosmith a lot this season even if I quit cause boring after a while ... want back to ele and power rev tho)

[Vieux P.1238]

Something is kind of overtune about this class..not sure exactly what????

[shion.2084]

What skills give the holo invuln and the ability to attack at the same time? I'd like to read up on them.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"shion.2084" said:

> What skills give the holo invuln and the ability to attack at the same time? I'd like to read up on them.

 

i dont really play engi, but i am asuming trait dodge. otherwise people are just talking rubbish.

[Menyus.4610]

> @"shion.2084" said:

> What skills give the holo invuln and the ability to attack at the same time? I'd like to read up on them.

 

Dodging while under the effect on an elixir

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

> @"shion.2084" said:

> What skills give the holo invuln and the ability to attack at the same time? I'd like to read up on them.

 

Signet of stone ! aw wait that's the ranger one ... Defy pain then? nope it's warrior's

 

Dunno what you were talking about engi tho

[Bish.8627]

For the energy it costs, the damn wave is dodged or stab nullifies it more than it hits.

[Rezzet.3614]

> @"shion.2084" said:

> What skills give the holo invuln and the ability to attack at the same time? I'd like to read up on them.

 

According to qqers all of them

Also it has infinite heat and endurance

[Rezzet.3614]

Shockwave not only has 15s cd but it also generates 25% heat, i dont get where qqers are getting the whole its spammable argument

 

They are clearly mistaking it with corona burst i guess

[Vague Memory.2817]

Just had a match against team with a Holosmith on Skyhammer. He just dominated the match because it is impossible to kite on the 2 smaller caps when he's shockwave radius is bigger than the whole cap. The devs problem is they don't actually play PvP or they wouldn't add skills with ridiculously large radii with CC for out-of-date maps that were made before they were born. It isn't just Holosmith though, this latest round of elites are so comically over tuned I think they were originally designed for GW3 in 2030 if ever.

[Angeels.3269]

a holosmith dodging in elixir s is a bad one. if they do so they have fewer dodges when they come out of it and you can just easily damage/cc them then. don't know what people cry about with regards to that aspect of things, it is by definition a l2p issue. thats not to say dodge damage is over the top - it is - but it proccing in elixir s is not the issue everyone claims it to be.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"AngelsShadow.7360" said:

> a holosmith dodging in elixir s is a bad one. if they do so they have fewer dodges when they come out of it and you can just easily damage/cc them then. don't know what people cry about with regards to that aspect of things, it is by definition a l2p issue. thats not to say dodge damage is over the top - it is - but it proccing in elixir s is not the issue everyone claims it to be.

 

Pretty much this.

 

The damage is high, don't get me wrong, but it's definitely a L2P issue. People have gotten so tremendously used to hounding engineers in Elixir S, that the dodge traits are a MASSIVE punishment to them. But that's the point. Learn to give engineers some space... and hey, surprise, the damage is actually not that strong.

 

It's not like signet of stone, endure pain, or obsidian flesh. We can't actually attack through invulnerability, we can only dodge.

 

P.S. I fight other holos on my holo all the time. The ones who try to damage me through Elixir S (rather than get away) typically die to me. Because I see it coming and move out of the way. Super easy to do.