Scourge Specialization Updates for the Path of Fire Launch

[Shiki.7148]

> @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > @Shiki.7148 said:

> > > @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > > I think at this point there are a few misunderstanding running around...

> > >

> > > With greater shade, you'll still provide support to a whole raid (in PvE): 5 character taken care by you and 5 by your shade.

> > > Nobody say that the change aren't a good move for WvW. Those change mainly hurt PvE.

> > > Scourge benefit from tools that are usefull in WvW/PvP (boon corruption and condition cleanse) but are not really usefull in most of the PvE content.

> > > The barrier mechanism never had the potential to replace a healer.

> > > The offensive means of the scourge are very effective against player because their survivability and offense rely heavily on boons. In PvE content mobs do not rely on boons, they rely on their base stat and base health, that why scourge was already at a disadvantage in this gamemode.

> > >

> > > These change will probably make the scourge an healthier specialization in both PvP and WvW. These changes will barely affect the PvE support, however they will hit hard the PvE DPS because, while before these change were annouced, no vitality gear were still a decent option to chose, now it will be almost mandatory to thread this road. In a way, it make _vital persistence_ even more needed than it was before.

> >

> > Never said you could not support the whole raid with Savant. But you need to use Savant, which is an effing Grandmaster trait, and makes our dps plummet due to losing demonic lore. At which point we lose the only advantage we might have had over other "pure support" specs, dealing more damage.

>

> Well, I don't find it shocking that anet try to make a support trait fight against a dps trait. Even more, It only reduce condi dps, the scourge is not all about condi damage, the power scourge have already the tools to outdps the power necromancer (that's not much, sure, but it's a fact). Players focus so much on the condi side, that they disregard the power side. To reach their top dps, PvE scourges will need dagger MH and this is a power weapon, the condi traits, utility and weapon sure look kitten but the poor LF gen only say one thing for raids: "Play power scourge!". Scepter will nerf your ability to use shroud skills, staff will nerf your damage altogether and dagger will nerf your condi damage. The only solution is to rely on a dagger power build even if it's counterintuitive.

 

I do not find it shocking, either. And it was perfectly fine before the nerf. The problem is that barrier is sucks and the only other form of support Scourge has is might, which is already overy abundant.

 

> @Nyel.1843 said:

> Some peopel are really overexaggerating the "nerf". Less whining and maybe a bit more theorycrafting and thinking outside of boxes.

 

We wouldn't "overexaggerate" the nerf if it wasn't, AGAIN, only the Necromancer spec that got fucked over. Have you SEEN the other specs change list? Buffs, buffs buffs, one small nerf, buffs. I get the nerf because of WvW, I really do, but for the love of christ they could've made it WvW only. Also, they left Deadeye basically completely untouched; Deadeye support is currently more viable than Scourge Support. How about them apples. Firebrand does crazy amount of burn stacks, Scourge gets an ICD on Demonic lore. The other specs' utilities all are good without some arbitrary stipulation, Scourge gets a stipulation that is unfulfillable in most of PvE, without anything base. Every class currently has a spec seemed "raidviable". Except Necro, and with this, we will not make the cut yet again.

 

If this change was only in WvW, no one would bat an eye; I'm pretty sure just about all players thought that that was a "little" bit stupid. But no, they cannot be assed to write the few lines of code they'd need to make it happen. Checking for WvW is apaprently so easy, it was one of the changes they enforced for the build template mod. So why are they not doing it? Who knows, but it is complete crap. Besides, Deathly Chill and Chilling Nova are different for PvP. Epidemic is different for WvW. So they cannot even use the excuse of "it is currently not technically possible", because it bloody well is, and until they can give us a reason why the old stats would have been too powerful in PvE and why Deadeye was allowed to keep the 10 man boonspreading without grandmaster trait investment, aswell as their oneshots from stealth instead of nerfing that hard enough to not be an issue anymor ein WvW, I'll be calling them out on it.

[Helbjorne.9368]

Thanks for the heads up!

[Ara.4569]

Be careful, you can get banned if you work around the profanity filter. I might even get banned for pointing it out because "Discussion of moderation and forum policies are not allowed on the forums." :'(

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Peach Pinky.6501" said:

> So the elementalist gets to remain top DPS for literal years, still effecting 5 people, the engineer gets to remain high utility for literal years, the guardian maintains a comfy spot even with zerker gear despite being a low HP class, and the druid still gets to effect 5 people with their stuff too, and lets not forget that chronomancer in raid is king for their 5 man quickness spam, but the second the necromancer has any semblance of power or actual real use for a game mode outside of WvW you nerf them **yet again** to the point where they barely function? Why not just reduce ratios to the point where maintain a 5 man support instead of having them be the only support class that can't effect 5 people? There doesn't appear to be any logic behind this decision and it seems hypocritical at best.

 

We've yet to see what baseline changes they will make to each class. And they have said each class will have a baseline change. I mean I'm not that hopeful but it is something at least.

[Shiki.7148]

> @Lahmia.2193 said:

> > @"Peach Pinky.6501" said:

> > So the elementalist gets to remain top DPS for literal years, still effecting 5 people, the engineer gets to remain high utility for literal years, the guardian maintains a comfy spot even with zerker gear despite being a low HP class, and the druid still gets to effect 5 people with their stuff too, and lets not forget that chronomancer in raid is king for their 5 man quickness spam, but the second the necromancer has any semblance of power or actual real use for a game mode outside of WvW you nerf them **yet again** to the point where they barely function? Why not just reduce ratios to the point where maintain a 5 man support instead of having them be the only support class that can't effect 5 people? There doesn't appear to be any logic behind this decision and it seems hypocritical at best.

>

> We've yet to see what baseline changes they will make to each class. And they have said each class will have a baseline change. I mean I'm not that hopeful but it is something at least.

 

With the way they handled this, my hope is basically measured in negative numbers at this point. They really need to either get rid of the guy responsible for Necro, or get some people that actually play and like the class, and care what happens to it to read the forums and give that dude a comprehensive no-nonsense shortened version of it, because the guy apparently cannot get himself to give a single fuck.

[mazut.4296]

Yo!!! Nobody cares about profanity...

Revert the nerfs and split PvE and WvW...

[Arricson Krei.9560]

These changes were well deserved for the WvW crowd. Skill splitting to help out end-game PvE necros is still needed, though.

[Helbjorne.9368]

> @mazut.4296 said:

> Yo!!! Nobody cares about profanity...

> Revert the nerfs and split PvE and WvW...

 

The rest of us don't, but supreme overlord ArenaNet and their secret police do.

[Maunzi.3764]

> @Lahmia.2193 said:

> > @"Peach Pinky.6501" said:

> > So the elementalist gets to remain top DPS for literal years, still effecting 5 people, the engineer gets to remain high utility for literal years, the guardian maintains a comfy spot even with zerker gear despite being a low HP class, and the druid still gets to effect 5 people with their stuff too, and lets not forget that chronomancer in raid is king for their 5 man quickness spam, but the second the necromancer has any semblance of power or actual real use for a game mode outside of WvW you nerf them **yet again** to the point where they barely function? Why not just reduce ratios to the point where maintain a 5 man support instead of having them be the only support class that can't effect 5 people? There doesn't appear to be any logic behind this decision and it seems hypocritical at best.

>

> We've yet to see what baseline changes they will make to each class. And they have said each class will have a baseline change. I mean I'm not that hopeful but it is something at least.

 

This is my only hope. They could give us good baseline support there, improve our overall scaling and damage, and make the base class finally viable in itself.

 

I can dream.

 

[Drakonis.4579]

> @Hana.8143 said:

> Come on guys, Scourge is definitly a strong class, they didn't kill it, they nerfed it so it's not killing Wvw, you're still a big mass of barrier kitten, everyone will wish to have scourge in their group. It's still doing a great job in applying lots of conditions/ cleansing conditions / applying barrier. In raid, you'll still be needed.

 

Wow, that's a pretty hilarious take you've got there.

[Atticus.7194]

> @Vitali.5039 said:

> > * Sand Savant: Reduced the increased number of targets on Manifest Sand Shade from 5 to 2. (So it now increases it to 5)

>

> >> @https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scourge 's Trivia

> >>Scourge was created to give necromancers more support to their allies. Scourges trade off their personal defenses for group support to avoid power creep.

> >>Typically Necromancers have been individuals that move around and deal significant amount of condition. Scourge allow necromancers to become **battlefield commanders to control different areas of the battlefield and not just near where they are but also at places where they put up Sand Sh4des.**

> >>Scourge utility skills used to be sacrifice skills that consumed life force but the developers felt it wasn't cohesive thematically since life force was typically consumed mostly by shroud skills. They were replaced by punishment skills that corrupt enemy boons into specific conditions (Torment and Cripple).

>

> So much field control..

 

Right?

 

Given that the development team has already compromised the core design philosophy of the spec before PoF has even launched I have little hope for any eventual balance. I honestly think the developers use "as long as players aren't complaining about it being too OP then it's not really breaking anything even if it's massively under performing" as a benchmark for acceptance on new specs.

 

Hell they probably pat each other on the back believing this will lead to players being eventually grateful when they try to eventually buff the spec... wait no, nvm this is necros we're talking about.

[vicious.5683]

> @Kam.4092 said:

> > @Parlance.9584 said:

> > My friend telling me to not play necro was probably the greatest advice i was ever given.

>

> My boyfriend and I both main Necros, and we still enjoy it. Just because a Profession isn't Meta doesn't mean it's bad. Scourge will be shining in all game modes but Raids, but may work in Raids.

>

> A person's fun is judged by what they want to do in game, or what they enjoy mechanic wise. I just love how Necro plays, and the themes of the Profession. If a person just wants to be playing an always Meta Profession for Raids, that's their own thing I guess.

>

> I'd rather play a Profession I love, than one I disliked just to be "Meta".

 

I don't get why Anet removed Thumbs Down function, you deserve a few.

 

No class deserve to be excluded from PVE content, specially when that class has been neglected since dungeons was a thing in this game.

[Eburte.9813]

Welp, looks like it's time to get a new main. I've heard Anet likes Elementalist, might try one of those.

[Kam.4092]

> @vicious.5683 said:

> > @Kam.4092 said:

> > > @Parlance.9584 said:

> > > My friend telling me to not play necro was probably the greatest advice i was ever given.

> >

> > My boyfriend and I both main Necros, and we still enjoy it. Just because a Profession isn't Meta doesn't mean it's bad. Scourge will be shining in all game modes but Raids, but may work in Raids.

> >

> > A person's fun is judged by what they want to do in game, or what they enjoy mechanic wise. I just love how Necro plays, and the themes of the Profession. If a person just wants to be playing an always Meta Profession for Raids, that's their own thing I guess.

> >

> > I'd rather play a Profession I love, than one I disliked just to be "Meta".

>

> I don't get why Anet removed Thumbs Down function, you deserve a few.

>

> No class deserve to be excluded from PVE content, specially when that class has been neglected since dungeons was a thing in this game.

 

I'm not saying I don't want it to be Meta. I want it to be. I'm saying how Necro is a fun class to me. I do not see how this upset you.

 

I get everyone is upset right now, but don't take it out on each other.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

I've never raided, just fractals and open world for PvE which I assume anything goes, but judging from all the bad reactions to the changes, I feel for the raid necros.

I support splitting the balances for WvW, PvP and PvE too.

Although WvW will still be a nightmare to balance since there are quite a few game modes in there.

 

# If WvW can be split and balanced on its own, here are my thoughts on the changes from a WvW solo roaming point of view.

 

Of course, I suppose balances aren't really done around solo roaming...and not many necros actually solo roam...but still...sharing my thoughts for discussion with other solo scourges out there.

Based on the short Demo Weekend testing, Scourge seemed rather strong against melee foes but terribly weak against range foes.

I would prefer a 'fairer' fighting chance against most of the other classes/builds that I may face in WvW while roaming, and not a one-sided hammering dished out by myself or my foe.

With that said, the changes I would consider good would be to balance out the drastic contrast that a Scourge faces when up against a melee or range foe.

 

 

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> Greetings Necromancers,

 

Greetings.

 

> As the sands of the Crystal Desert beckon several things have changed since the previews of the Scourge elite specialization.

 

And what might they be?

 

> * Manifest Sand Shade: Reduced duration of shade from 25s to 20s. Reduced target cap from 5 to 3.

 

**Reduced target cap from 5 to 3:** No problem since it will usually be small scale fights.

 

**Reduced duration of shade from 25s to 20s:** I would have liked for the duration of the shade to have been reduced further, giving melee foes more breathing room against us. As it is now, they have to pressure us enough to force us out of our shade radius, or die trying. They can't really afford to 'wait out' our shade. Reduce this to...5 seconds?

 

**What I had hoped to see changed:**

 

* Either making this skill instant cast. It is terribly difficult to cast this accurately on a range mobile foe (slightly better if you traited Sand Savant). Having this instant cast would go some way in helping even out the playing field a little for scourges against range foes.

* Or making the shade destroy projectiles (I prefer this option because making it instant cast might make it harder for melee foes to get some interrupts in on us without taking all the additional damage from a shade).

 

> * Nefarious Favor: Increased cost from 15% to 21% base vitality in life force.

 

Makes LF management more challenging but **acceptable**.

After all it is a strong all round skill on a short CD, and would help lessen corruption spamming against melee foes.

 

> * Garish Pillar: Reduced cost from 50% to 40% of base vitality in life force.

 

**40% still seems rather high for just a melee range fear**

 

> * Desert Shroud: Increased cost from 40% to 50% of base vitality in life force.

 

I would say **the change is fine** since it is quite an all round powerful melee range skill.

 

> * Harrowing Wave: Now grants 3% life force per enemy struck.

 

That's a nice change.

 

**What I had hoped to see changed:** Range to be increased as well to match torch 5's range.

 

> * Serpent Siphon: Poison from 1 stack for 3s to 2 stacks for 5s.

 

Still a rather underwhelming skill and probably won't be taken for solo roaming.

Even for small group roaming, I think there are better choices.

 

> * Sand Swell: Increased duration of portal from 6 to 8 seconds. Increased number of allies that can use it from 10 to 20.

 

**Increase duration from 6 to 8 seconds:** 6 did seem rather short and limited what we can do. Now with 8, I can imagine kiting a little and use maybe consume conditions for a 'safer' heal, or using it to match a thief's shadow step to keep the pressure up on him. Definitely a good change to help even out a little against range foes.

 

**Increase allies usage from 10 to 20:** Okay, not really applicable.

 

**What I had hoped to see changed:** Would rather have seen this being made a stun-break though.

 

> * Trail of Anguish: Now grants stability in addition to swiftness.

 

When I see stability, I say yes please.

 

> * Desert Empowerment: Reduced base barrier value and healing scaling granted from this trait by 27%.

 

Not really applicable...unless you run minion Scourge? Will that be viable though?

 

> * Sand Savant: Reduced the increased number of targets on Manifest Sand Shade from 5 to 2. (So it now increases it to 5)

 

Change not really applicable since fights will be small scale.

 

# Overall Thoughts from a WvW solo-roaming perspective

* I'm really glad they didn't over-react and put cast times on the F skills because it will just kill the Scourge.

* Acceptable changes all round, though little was done to alleviate the Scourge's toughest problem, range foes.

* The only positive point against range foes would be that we can now try to use the portal against them and see how things go from there.

* For now I would still think **Staff is a mandatory weapon** if you want to even out the playing field against range foes a little more. Traited, it would also help massively against block-heavy foes **and** give us better LF regeneration.

 

[LoreChief.8391]

Barrier skills are too quick of fall-off to justify the high life force cost for Sand Cascade. Either make it last like 2 seconds longer or just scrap the mechanic and go with Aegis instead - because Barrier is quickly proving to not be that useful.

 

Serpent Siphon is still going to suck even with these buffs. It's just an underwhelming skill by default.

 

Sand Swell needs 1200 range.

 

Sand Shade base damage needs to be increased by like 250%. Duration of the applied Torment should be 4s base.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> There is an effective 12 target cap if you and your three **kitten** are all active

> We expect this change will reward more skilled use of **kitten**

 

the kittens are winning! all hands on deck!!!!!ilsudbnlkjxcgnadiurt

 

 

[Kam.4092]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> > There is an effective 12 target cap if you and your three **kitten** are all active

> > We expect this change will reward more skilled use of **kitten**

>

> the kittens are winning! all hands on deck!!!!!ilsudbnlkjxcgnadiurt

>

>

 

Heh...

[Hana.8143]

> @Shiki.7148 said:

> You have absolutely no clue, do you? No one wants, no, no one NEEDS barriers in raids because there is enough healing.

 

And that's exactly why you're totally wrong, cause by nerfing the amount of target, they're actually preventing you to play as a full retarded squad of scourges. So actual healers can do their jobs, you should be thankful instead of angry.

 

[XenesisII.1540]

> @Aktium.9506 said:

> It's so nice when irrelevant game modes like WvW where balance doesn't matter to begin with impacts actual game modes like PvP and Raids

 

Heh.

Spvp has it's own balance system.

Raids are against npcs which can be easily tuned to players, so balance there is actually irrelevant.

For wvw it's pvp using pve balance, which obviously means it should be balanced with use against players in wvw.

But I'm sure each and every wvw player would tell you they would prefer if wvw had it's own balance system like spvp, and let pve have their broken balance system.

 

 

[Zefiris.8297]

> @Hana.8143 said:

> > @Shiki.7148 said:

> > You have absolutely no clue, do you? No one wants, no, no one NEEDS barriers in raids because there is enough healing.

>

> And that's exactly why you're totally wrong, cause by nerfing the amount of target, they're actually preventing you to play as a full kitten squad of scourges. So actual healers can do their jobs, you should be thankful instead of angry.

>

 

Your post is probably the most incoherent post in this forum. Good work.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @Hana.8143 said:

> > @Shiki.7148 said:

> > You have absolutely no clue, do you? No one wants, no, no one NEEDS barriers in raids because there is enough healing.

>

> And that's exactly why you're totally wrong, cause by nerfing the amount of target, they're actually preventing you to play as a full kitten squad of scourges. So actual healers can do their jobs, you should be thankful instead of angry.

>

 

I really do wonder what world you live in sometimes...

[SidewayS.3789]

It's good i didn't pre-order the expansion. My favorite classes (necro,revenant) are trash, or should i say, they will be PURE trash in PvE and more specific, Raids. But at least i can buy Divinity : Origin Sin 2 , since those devs,deserve my $$.

[Kam.4092]

> @Hana.8143 said:

> > @Shiki.7148 said:

> > You have absolutely no clue, do you? No one wants, no, no one NEEDS barriers in raids because there is enough healing.

>

> And that's exactly why you're totally wrong, cause by nerfing the amount of target, they're actually preventing you to play as a full kitten squad of scourges. So actual healers can do their jobs, you should be thankful instead of angry.

>

 

wat

[Shadowresli.3782]

> @XenesisII.1540 said:

> > @Aktium.9506 said:

> > It's so nice when irrelevant game modes like WvW where balance doesn't matter to begin with impacts actual game modes like PvP and Raids

>

> Heh.

> Spvp has it's own balance system.

> Raids are against npcs which can be easily tuned to players, so balance there is actually irrelevant.

> For wvw it's pvp using pve balance, which obviously means it should be balanced with use against players in wvw.

> But I'm sure each and every wvw player would tell you they would prefer if wvw had it's own balance system like spvp, and let pve have their broken balance system.

>

>

 

as he said, an own balance system for wvw would be extremly nice

also as a wvw player i can't understand 8 pages of whining about an irrelevant game mode like raids :p