Pay-To-Win specs

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Keep in mind that some core specs still perform well in pve and pvp, with Renegade actually performing worse.

 

That being said, the definition of p2w is subjective, but it generally refers to a cash shop upgrade that offers a large advantage to players with money to burn.

You cant realistically apply that to cover game expansions, since technically people without the expansions do not own the full game.

 

That's like Free GW2 Players saying GW2 is pay to win because payers can chat and thus coordinate attacks better. On paper it's technically an argument, but it doesn't hold water because anyone without the full game is not playing on a level playing field to start with.

[Ardid.7203]

AFAIK, there are still some core builds in the meta. Also, some of the Elite Specs get nerfed time to time. Also, more importantly, the Elite Specs were not advertised as "better builds to win in PvP" but as "different ways to play your profession". So, technically, It isn't exactly a P2W issue, but an unfulfilled promise of balance one.

[Gallows.4318]

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> AFAIK, there are still some core builds in the meta. Also, some of the Elite Specs get nerfed time to time. Also, more importantly, the Elite Specs were not advertised as "better builds to win in PvP" but as "different ways to play your profession". So, technically, It isn't exactly a P2W issue, but an unfulfilled promise of balance one.

 

Presicely. The elites specs should be balanced, but it has nothing to do with P2W. They should be balanced even if they were open to everyone.

[Deimos.4263]

> @"Gallows.4318" said:

> > @"Ardid.7203" said:

> > AFAIK, there are still some core builds in the meta. Also, some of the Elite Specs get nerfed time to time. Also, more importantly, the Elite Specs were not advertised as "better builds to win in PvP" but as "different ways to play your profession". So, technically, It isn't exactly a P2W issue, but an unfulfilled promise of balance one.

>

> Presicely. The elites specs should be balanced, but it has nothing to do with P2W. They should be balanced even if they were open to everyone.

 

Yep. Could easily be tweaked by identifying core classes that are weak, and promoting the most prevalent trait line in each up to an "elite" trait line.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> > @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> > Also as a fun vid they put up recently, here's Seven showing what a core build can do:

>

> Yes let's link a video of a class that has an okay-ish core build vs a bottom 3 PoF elite spec.

>

>

 

Or maybe realize that it comes down to skill level and not the class. Everyone complaining about core spec not being able to hold their own against the new elite specs has just not played all the specs to learn their strengths and weaknesses, and have put in even less time learning how to fight against the new specs in different situations.

 

No one is going to hold your hand.

 

[Razor.6392]

> @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > > @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> > > Also as a fun vid they put up recently, here's Seven showing what a core build can do:

> >

> > Yes let's link a video of a class that has an okay-ish core build vs a bottom 3 PoF elite spec.

> >

> >

>

> Or maybe realize that it comes down to skill level and not the class. Everyone complaining about core spec not being able to hold their own against the new elite specs has just not played all the specs to learn their strengths and weaknesses, and have put in even less time learning how to fight against the new specs in different situations.

>

> No one is going to hold your hand.

>

 

> @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > > @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> > > Also as a fun vid they put up recently, here's Seven showing what a core build can do:

> >

> > Yes let's link a video of a class that has an okay-ish core build vs a bottom 3 PoF elite spec.

> >

> >

>

> Or maybe realize that it comes down to skill level and not the class. Everyone complaining about core spec not being able to hold their own against the new elite specs has just not played all the specs to learn their strengths and weaknesses, and have put in even less time learning how to fight against the new specs in different situations.

>

> No one is going to hold your hand.

>

 

Do you even play spvp?

[Majirah.5089]

It’s pretty sad when people think elite specializations are pay to win. Not even close. Even in the context of pvp only, which I’m sure is where a lot of the complaints come from. It is buy to play.

 

If they think elite specs are pay to win, then they must also think that other mmos level cap increases, new classes, or other common expansion items are also pay to win. Take a level cap increases as an example. I played swtor for a long time. There have been several level cap increases. I stopped playing before they raised the level cap to 70. I started when the level cap was 50. There is no possible way that a level 50 in top end gear at the time of launch could kill a level 65 in top end gear when I stopped playing. The level 65 would literally have to do nothing to lose. Does that mean that the level cap increases were pay to win? Of course not. It was customary and normal evolution of game content over the course of several years.

 

Elite specs do not have as big a power increase over core that most level cap expansions do. You can still compete, and compete well with many core classes, without paying a dime. In some cases full core specs are even better than elite specs. In other games you can’t even play end game pvp if you don’t have the expansion.

 

Elite specs are not pay to win in the slightest bit. The pay to win definition as has been commonly accepted in most mmo communities involves micro transactions in a cash shop that give otherwise unattainable benefits to the player. It would be like the ability to buy a second amulet that you can equip in pvp off the gem store (and only from the gem store). Nothing to do with expansion. Only people who buy the second amulet slot on the market can slot another amulet in pvp. That would be pay to win.

 

I think this comes from the same mentality as the people who constantly complain about gem store prices or complained about POF mounts and demanded free core mounts. People want stuff for free and when they can’t get it for free it’s automaticaly this evil scheme from greedy corporations. It’s ridiculous.

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> There is nothing on the cash shop that you can not acquire by trading gold for gems, even expansions. Those upgrades go for 2400 gems which is around 600g if you are patient enough to wait for a good moment to trade. Not sure you are picked the right genre if you still feel like that is too much to ask of the players.

 

**Expansions can not be purchased in the Gem store.** Those upgrades are from Basic to Deluxe versions, you have to buy the expansion with actual money first.

[STIHL.2489]

Well to those that call an Expansion P2W, good luck finding a game that puts out an Expansion that does not expand the game.

[Pretty Pixie.8603]

The OP's argument is basically that buying the full game is somehow p2w. This is not a free to play title, it's a buy to play game with an extended free trial.

 

Metabattle has 12 base builds rated good or higher just for fractals alone.

 

[Westenev.5289]

I must have missed the elite spec that connects directly to paypal.

[Sister Saxifrage.7361]

Elite specializations are not pay-to-win. They're pay-to-play-to-win. It's not like you whip out your credit card and instantly unlock all the hero points.

 

The F2P package is incredibly generous. You can enjoy a huge amount of content without paying a cent. I think it's fine for there to be even more content you have to pay for, including horizontal character development.

[voltaicbore.8012]

I might have expressed limited agreement with OP just a few months ago, but I recently regeared and rebuilt my ranger to run core again. She's an absolute beast in pve and wvw, and spvp is next on the list. I'm excited to rediscover core spec powers on other classes as well.

 

I, too, suspect this is entirely an spvp complaint from OP. Given that I only run HoT and PoF specs currently in ranked, I guess I have no personal data to argue against that, but once I figure out if any core specs are plat 1 viable for me I'll be back with more refutation.

[psyt.9415]

If we look at other games they add stuff to the existing specs. Instead of creating new spec lines why not just parachute in more abilities to the ones we already have so that we aren't invalidating play styles. Power creep from new stat combos on gear/amulets which only unlock with the expacs, people still need to buy the pack for spvp then. But let everyone play what they want and be competitive. Probably easier to balance than reinventing the wheel every expac with a full new elite line.

[STIHL.2489]

These kinds of discussions.. really make me wish that GW2 never went F2P, and remained B2P, that way we would not be swarmed by people who want everything for nothing.

[intox.6347]

> @"PLS.4095" said:

> > @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> > Facts: Paying for an expansion gives you an advantage in PvP over those who have not paid for these specs.

> > Pay-To-Win: Paying for an advantage.

> > That is literally the definition.

>

> Agree 100 %

>

> > P2W system is about ... buying +20% dmg booster by real money.... or perma stealth suite.. or special weapons with ultra effect .. triple dmg than best ingame weapon.

>

> LUL

> Core engi + 50 % dmg + stab + triple damage = Holosmith

> Core engi+ perma stealth = scrapper

>

> Next.

>

>

 

Hah, then every game is pay to win, coz you first need to buy the game, then you can play and win, it gives you big advantage if you buy the game against player who didnt buy it, thats your logic how pay to win system works ? These poor dumbs here lol.

[Endrance.1680]

I don't understand the issue. It's like this: GW2 for the core campaign was a flat rate, no pay to play. If you stick to the core areas without expansions you are good, no issue. The expansions are a one time fee and you get the specs which in turn further your play style and ability in the new maps. ANet then goes further to give you FREE content, that is the Living Story, in between the expansions. You don't even have to play LS when it comes out, just log in once after release to have that content available. They have charged flat rates twice for HoT and PoF. Again, no pay to play but buy to play. No monthly subscription. ANet is extremely generous.

[Colly.4073]

It’s not quite pay2win yet but it is definitely heading in that direction.

[WeedyZeGreedy.8635]

Is it not like saying someone in wow who has the latest expansion is p2w compared to one in full vanilla gear?

[KaruRadiox.1924]

I would argue that it is not pay to win. While to some degree the elite specs give a bit of a power jump, it doesn't make them impossible to defeat.

The only grievance you should have in terms of elite specs would be that some of them encourage their opponents to build more creatively (even with just core specs) in order to counter them. Personally, I do a lot of build theory crafting with my main class and have found some widely commented on as uncommon and creative counters to some commonly played specs.

That truly is one of the most impactful features gw2 has to offer. While your most preferred build may see trouble with certain specs, a variation of that same playstyle could improve your odds. Though if you go into any kind of content thinking the exact same build will always work as your trump card, the problem isn't that the elite specs are broken, it's that you as a player are weak because you refuse to adapt.

[Gallows.4318]

Maybe some of the people claiming P2W have come back and only have the core. Maybe, just maybe, the most dedicated GW2 players ALL have the expansions and them being dedicated results in them having played more. The most likely connection to P2W may be the fact that the players who buy the expansions are very dedicated players who play a lot. :)

[Llethander.3972]

The power of elite specializations is an example of power creep, not pay-to-win. There is a difference.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> > Now they are selling specializations?! There's no denying that someone who does not purchase these specs has a severe disadvantage against those who do.

>

> They’re not selling elite specializations, they’re selling expansions.

> Its no different from any other game.

> Would you call WoW a pay2win game as well? As every expansion adds new classes and races?

>

> I get the vague feeling this is about pvp, where most people use elite specializations one way or another

 

 

Actually the OP does have a point. Yes games expand and with those expansion come changes.. some good, some interesting and.. as in the case of GW2 some changes put core gamers at a distinct disadvantage unless you pay to obtain the advantage by way of the expansion.. so yes the OP does have a point.

That said when expansions are released it is for the player to decide if the expansion is the way they want to go.. all the info regarding the expansions is there to be seen prior to buying so its down to personal choice.. the new elite specs or other items that become advantageous .. gliders, mounts etc are the carrot and are absolutely something all us players should consider prior to deciding.. if you decide not to then that's that. Of course the decisions one makes regarding expansion purchase are effected by other issues like available funds, time, RL issues.. and so when those advantageous can be a bitter pill to swallow.. especially when PvP is involved... PvE not so much in GW2 as openworld allows players to be swallowed up in the mass of particle effects and none are the wiser :)

 

One thing I would note though regarding your response.. races and classes tend not to be an advantage more of a luxury.. not being a wow player I would hate to think that a new class or a new race has any advantage over another.. but stats and skills or gliders/mounts that you need to get to certain places on maps.. well yeah they are advantages.. its how the character is built around the class/race by the player, so classes and races tend to be balanced prior to adding in skills, equipment stats etc. surely..

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> Whether it is defined as P2W, this is the intended and accepted business model. The introduction of elites has allowed for deeper and harder content since the arrival of expansions. Sure, that might mean an advantage in competitive, but I can't really imagine most players would expect a fully free to play account to be on equal terms with a fully paid account without personal skill added into the equation.

>

> F2P players can still play and win in pvp, it's just harder to do so. I don't see that as an issue, more an incentive to sell more copies of the expansions - which is what a business would want to do. And as a customer, I want to see more players encouraged to invest/buy into expansions.

 

You don't have to be a F2P player to be left at a disadvantage by not buying expansions.

 

I remember when PoF came out and mounts introduced.. the forums were lit up with complaints of unfairness.. some warranted, some not.

 

GW2 was build around a casual gamestyle and a business model that fitted that very well.. you could take a break and not be left behind per see. Players that originally purchased GW2 core game from the start but then for one reason or another couldn't expand are definately left disadvantaged not just someone that is playing the game F2P, which absolutely should provide a disparity in skills, classes, mounts, etc etc unless they choose to purchase expansions or unlocks to bring them up parity with at least core players.

I do think its harsh to call expansions P2W but no one can deny core gamers are left at a disadvantage making for almost a 2 tier game with certain gamemode parity, achievements, HP's etc locked behind a paywall.

[DarcShriek.5829]

Using the OP’s definition of P2W any game you have to buy is P2W