Pay-To-Win specs

[zell.3051]

> @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> > @"artemis.6781" said:

> > Then you haven't played a true P2W game.

>

> I don't know of anybody that can name a "true P2W game" that isn't as significant as buying entire specs that have an overwhelming advantage over non-$$$ core specs lol. This game was supposed to have flexibility of specs, not forcing you to use certain ones.

 

Oh my sweet summer child. Allow me to introduce you to Deck Heroes.

By far the heaviest P2W game to have ever existed.

 

GW2 is by no means even close to P2W. Once they start locking traits behind the gemstore, then you may start calling it P2W.

And even then you can farm gold, convert them into gems and buy them that way.

Sure it would take longer, but it definitely doesn't force one to open their wallet. Only if you want it quicker than your lifestyle allows it.

 

Sure, you get different specializations with the expansions, but the elite specs are only a byproduct of that.

And if someone loves the game enough to get so worked up over it, I find it hard to imagine why dishing out a relatively small sum of money to complete the game experience is such a big deal. Especially if you take into account all the things you get with it.

 

**tl;dr: reevaluate your personal definition of P2W, buy the bloody expansion if you love the game enough, in either case deal with it.**

[PLS.4095]

> @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> Facts: Paying for an expansion gives you an advantage in PvP over those who have not paid for these specs.

> Pay-To-Win: Paying for an advantage.

> That is literally the definition.

 

Agree 100 %

 

> P2W system is about ... buying +20% dmg booster by real money.... or perma stealth suite.. or special weapons with ultra effect .. triple dmg than best ingame weapon.

 

LUL

Core engi + 50 % dmg + stab + triple damage = Holosmith

Core engi+ perma stealth = scrapper

 

Next.

 

 

[Kirnale.5914]

Pay to win means what it says. You pay 100k €, you get a character that can beat the whole zerg without lifting a finger. You can even beat sindrener with pay to win. In pay to win games you can buy stats. Not just a little, but you can even end up with 10x the stats of a non pay to win player. Fight someone who have 200k power, toughness, vitality, etc. That's pay to win. It makes them unkillable.

 

Not getting the full game then calling it pay to win is just wrong in so many ways. Besides, a core thief can beat the trash out of most, if not all pof specs if played correctly. Sindrener perfectly displayed it.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> > @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > > @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> > > Now they are selling specializations?! There's no denying that someone who does not purchase these specs has a severe disadvantage against those who do.

> >

> > They’re not selling elite specializations, they’re selling expansions.

> > Its no different from any other game.

> > Would you call WoW a pay2win game as well? As every expansion adds new classes and races?

> >

> > I get the vague feeling this is about pvp, where most people use elite specializations one way or another

>

> Can you stop arguing semantics? Are you at a disadvantage pvp-wise without the expansion, YES OR NO?

 

No. You're not.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Deadeye is proof pof not p2w for deadeye is actelly worse than core

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> > @"Mist.6217" said:

> > > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > > Can you stop arguing semantics? Are you at a disadvantage pvp-wise without the expansion, YES OR NO?

> >

> > Only if you aren't proficient with the class you are playing.

>

> So you're saying a core necro can beat a scourge if played really well?

>

> Or a core engi can beat a holosmith?

>

> Or a core mesmer against a mirage?

>

> Haha. There are 2-3 actually good core builds out there, mostly because the traits they depend on got modified somewhere along the path to present day, but the majority underperforms greatly. The scourge vs core necro matchup in particular being 10-0 in favor of scourge.

 

Yes a core SD rifle build can definitely get the upper hand on a holo and quite a few of the others (including scourge) and necros (core or otherwise) can play the boon swapping condi game until the cows come home. Conversely there are some match ups (even core build ones) that will never work against another set up as some builds and classes are meant to directly combat them. Plainly put on my scourge I've both owned and been owned by others.

[Plautze.6290]

If you think about it, GW1 was even more P2W than GW2 as there were some skills which were much better than their Prophecies counterparts but you could only get them when you had Factions or Nightfall purchased. I only say Healing Signet VS Lion's Comfort... Which is not to say that GW1 was P2W at all!

 

In some people's minds there are only 3 possibilities how someone could beat them at a game:

 

1. Cheating

2. Biologically enhanced superman with cat reflexes and eight arms

3. P2W

 

Funny actually. And a little sad, but mostly funny.

 

Edit: I forgot reason number 4:

 

4. Better rig / internet connection.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

> @"PLS.4095" said:

> > @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> > Facts: Paying for an expansion gives you an advantage in PvP over those who have not paid for these specs.

> > Pay-To-Win: Paying for an advantage.

> > That is literally the definition.

>

> Agree 100 %

>

> > P2W system is about ... buying +20% dmg booster by real money.... or perma stealth suite.. or special weapons with ultra effect .. triple dmg than best ingame weapon.

>

> LUL

> Core engi + 50 % dmg + stab + triple damage = Holosmith

> Core engi+ perma stealth = scrapper

>

> Next.

>

>

 

And I've killed both in PvP and WvW on a core SD and HGH build engie running rifle just for funsies. Its called learning how to play the game a adjusting for fights. Will you win them all? Of course not, its just not how the game was made to work.

[Ashabhi.1365]

My question:

 

If this game is P2W (it's not in my opinion) then what exactly is it that we're "winning?"

[Veryl.7861]

Basically, it's a "pay-to-win" the moment you start breathing.

Even the air costs something and it's effort.

Ima get those 3, and a half of ecto real fair now...

[Razor.6392]

> @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> > @"PLS.4095" said:

> > > @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> > > Facts: Paying for an expansion gives you an advantage in PvP over those who have not paid for these specs.

> > > Pay-To-Win: Paying for an advantage.

> > > That is literally the definition.

> >

> > Agree 100 %

> >

> > > P2W system is about ... buying +20% dmg booster by real money.... or perma stealth suite.. or special weapons with ultra effect .. triple dmg than best ingame weapon.

> >

> > LUL

> > Core engi + 50 % dmg + stab + triple damage = Holosmith

> > Core engi+ perma stealth = scrapper

> >

> > Next.

> >

> >

>

> And I've killed both in PvP and WvW on a core SD and HGH build engie running rifle just for funsies. Its called learning how to play the game a adjusting for fights. Will you win them all? Of course not, its just not how the game was made to work.

 

Congratz, you can kill noobs. Any competent holosmith would destroy you to the point where you can't even get up to cast your rifle shots lmao.

 

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > > > @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> > > > Now they are selling specializations?! There's no denying that someone who does not purchase these specs has a severe disadvantage against those who do.

> > >

> > > They’re not selling elite specializations, they’re selling expansions.

> > > Its no different from any other game.

> > > Would you call WoW a pay2win game as well? As every expansion adds new classes and races?

> > >

> > > I get the vague feeling this is about pvp, where most people use elite specializations one way or another

> >

> > Can you stop arguing semantics? Are you at a disadvantage pvp-wise without the expansion, YES OR NO?

>

> No, you’re not. You have fewer methods to your goal, but no less oppertunities

 

I wonder how many of you play spvp. I want to see your core engi / mesmer / necro build doing damage at 1600+

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> > @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > > @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> > > Now they are selling specializations?! There's no denying that someone who does not purchase these specs has a severe disadvantage against those who do.

> >

> > They’re not selling elite specializations, they’re selling expansions.

> > Its no different from any other game.

> > Would you call WoW a pay2win game as well? As every expansion adds new classes and races?

> >

> > I get the vague feeling this is about pvp, where most people use elite specializations one way or another

>

> Can you stop arguing semantics? Are you at a disadvantage pvp-wise without the expansion, YES OR NO?

 

Can you stop arguing semantics? P2W has always reffered to a very specific type of monetization scheme where your power level in game is _directly proportional_ to how much you spend on it.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

 

>

> Congratz, you can kill noobs. Any competent holosmith would destroy you to the point where you can't even get up to cast your rifle shots lmao.

>

 

*Any competent player can kill another player regardless of class or build.

 

There, fixed that for you.

 

 

 

 

 

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Guild Wars 1 has had the same model. You can buy the base game and just play that but then you have to miss out on the new skills the came with the new campaigns and expansion. For the full GW2 experience, you have to buy all expansions. But there are no timely fees and you get free living world updates. While expansions surely gives advantages, this is not what is generally meant by pay-to-win. Pay-to-win is more like a gem-store that would sell character stat upgrades, and high-stat items.

 

ArenaNet always carefully avoided this path.

[notebene.3190]

I suppose it's hard to argue assertion. You can't really argue "It's B2P, not P2W", because those have never been mutually exclusive. A subscription could offer a shop that sells items that makes a game P2W. As can a B2P or a F2P. I suppose the term P2W leaves a bit of a nasty taste in my mouth, but it's just a label, and it is what it is, to varying degrees.

 

But to the core argument: Does bottling new specializations, which in some cases aren't horizontal but rather vertical upgrades, in expansions provide a type of P2W scenario in PvP and WvW because there isn't a way for people who don't pay to remain competitive?

 

Sure.

 

Unless, there is a way for you to earn it in the game without directly paying money.

 

I suppose there are two paths to correcting this, and maybe one of them already exists? I don't remember off hand, but can you buy the expansions in the BLTC? If you can, then there is a way to earn those specializations now. Gold to Gem conversion.

 

If you can't buy the expansions for gems, then I suppose another option that might be less pay to win is to add the ability to earn specializations in PvP (and WvW?), locked to those modes. You wouldn't be able to use them in PvE.

[Auroma.9126]

Guild Wars 2 is farthest from P2W. Even after going F2P they have still held maintained their good guy standards in this regard. I have seen F2P mmorpgs where spending dollars amounting to GW2 base game + both expansions will not even get half of your gear. You feel like an insignificant pixel waiting to be one shotted be the big spenders.

 

I bought both expansions after returning recently only to find out that I have to grind hero points in order to use the expansion classes that I have already paid for. Personally I don't mind having to unlock glider and mount since it connects with the story. But having to grind all these hero points when all I want to do is WvWvW gives me sadness. But I am not complaining since they did it to give our PvE friends a sense of progression.

[Ragmon.6350]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> Game is B2P. You are expected to buy expansions. GW2 is not P2W. Yet.

 

I disagree, but only if we look at specific things. Such as the Necro and Warrior. In PvP you are at a clear advantage if your playing a Scourge as Necro compared to Core or Reaper. same goes for the Warrior, the Spellbreaker is at a clear advantage over Zerker and Core. Meaning if you don't own PoF you are better off not playing Necro or Warrior in PvP if you want to achieve peak performance with the profession.

 

Now lets look at MettaBattle, the top builds rated as "meta" , all but 2, all require PoF. In the second category again all but 2 require HoT. I think this is a viable argument since mostly the "hardcore" PvP players sign up and rate builds there.

 

In conclusion, it looks like GW2 is P2W when it comes to PvP, if you look at the profession individually.

[Taltevus.3289]

> @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> First off I want to say **I love GW2** and I think it is a **great game**. However after coming back from a few years of not playing, I noticed their business model changed radically. Now they are selling specializations?! There's no denying that someone who does not purchase these specs has a severe disadvantage against those who do. Guild Wars 2 was doing great, it's still a great game but.. selling overpowered specs is something I highly disagree with. I am happy to spend money on GW2, I already have purchased the Heart Of Thorns expansion but.. I just feel it is quite wrong, and very pay to win, to sell these specs to players in order to be viable in pvp. They need to find another way to sell expansions to make the business model fair again.

 

There are Very VERY VEEEERRRRY FEW players who still run core Gw2...as in have neither have Hot or PoF. I only know 2. Most just let it slide now...becasue they've been adjusted to the idea since HoT. Not many complain about it any more and I would guess those that felt that way left. You might as well just ignore the majority of input you are going to get back. If the base professions were as good as players are going to try and lie to you about...you'd see them more often...and you don't so they aren't.

It's pay to win in 2 3rds of the game. PvP and WvW but PVE doesn't really count.

[notebene.3190]

According to the wiki, I guess you can. So, you can earn specializations in game without paying anything. [HoT](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Heart_of_Thorns%E2%80%94Digital_Deluxe_Upgrade "HoT"), [PoF](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Path_of_Fire%E2%80%94Digital_Deluxe_Upgrade "PoF").

[Gallows.4318]

Metabattle cannot be used as a balance tool. The meta adjusts itself. If condition damage is the meta, so is condition cleanse. I'll say daredevil is nice because of a few details in the package, but I also sacrifice stuff when I take it.

 

What are the exact skills and traits that make the scourge so much better than any core spec?

 

Examples and arguments, then we can discuss if they are massive game changers.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

Also as a fun vid they put up recently, here's Seven showing what a core build can do:

[Razor.6392]

> @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> Also as a fun vid they put up recently, here's Seven showing what a core build can do:

 

Yes let's link a video of a class that has an okay-ish core build vs a bottom 3 PoF elite spec.

 

 

[Zohane.7208]

I have always understood pay-to-win to be that you could buy specific items or boosts only in cash shop and these items would give you a definitive advantage over other players. Under that definition GW2 is very much not a p2w.

Under the OP's definition GW2 would indeed seem to be p2w, but then again so would all other games, in which case the p2w definition is moot.

 

In either case I would say the OP's point, which seems to be to discredit GW2's business model, is invalid.

[arenta.2953]

honestly...

Reaper vs Necro. i'd be better with Necro probably. as Reaper is so slow to do anything.

but i play it because GS + reaper shroud look cool (and i'm a rapid heal fanatic. 200 hp per secound while holdign a GS is nice)

 

Deadeye vs Thief. Thief would be vastly superior. as deadeye gives up so much mobility and survivability.

i'd be better off using a thief with p/p.

but i play deadeye cause rifle looks cool.

 

 

only classes i can think of as being vastly superior to their base form

 

are Holosmith (because base engineer has little to nothing in the form of melee or high dps)

Soulbeast(it isn't OP, but it just improves everything on base ranger ever so slightly......hiding the pet helps)

Daredevil(cause haha evade removes movement debuffs and gives swiftness and is spammable.)

and Scourge(cause Scourge is OP as hell in pvp. taking Necro and buffing it.

 

 

 

 

everything else, is more giving you new options for how to play it, not making it superior to the base class. moving sideways, not higher up.

So for everything it adds, it has a downside to compensate.

 

Examples are

Druid: a dedicated healer. something Ranger didn't have before. but Ranger is superior in damage in all ways

Deadeye: a long range thief.....though is the range worth the sacrifice to mobility and survivability?

Reaper: a melee necro.....thats literally it. switching from mid range single target. to close range swings.

Spellbreaker: a support warrior that focuses on boon removal warfare, instead of just bashing their head in.

 

and so on.

 

GW2 isn't P2W. but rather its going through growth pains as it tries to insert more skills into the game and keep everything balanced. theres going to be some classes that shine while others suffer. These will change as balance patches come and go.

 

like currently, we're seeing a massive meta toward condition dmg (and thus scourge) as it has no way to reduce its dmg, and is so easy to be spammed that condi cleanse can't compensate.

 

so all classes that focus on conditions are popular. and PoF had alot of them (though not all)

 

but HoT and the base game both had some as well.

 

when Anet fixes the condition plague, we'll see what rises to prominence in its ashes.

 

 

[Thanathos.2063]

It would be pay to win if a weaker (more inexperienced) player could pay to win against a stronger (more experienced) player.

Eg, a newbie getting destroyed by a pro, then spending money to get revenge. But truely, every core profession player with some experience could easily obliterate any newbie that freshly bought some elite spec.

 

*If a player that spends large sums on a game is NOT able to win against ANY non-paying opponent, it's not p2w.*

Because this is the definition of pay to win. *Of course*, if two equally skilled players battle, one could argue that one of them could win by buying one expansion if the other is using only core. But that won't help against a player that's more skilled.