Bofouci.1320 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"SaltAndLight.4652" said: > Especially Mind Blast, mesmers down skill that applies confusion in PvE and Scepter 3. Holy crap! I've been just paying attention to all the other non-downed skills that still have confusion as their mechanic. Anet, please fix my downed state as well or you may as well give mesmers /gg command access in open world pve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Rauderi.8706" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > Tell me outside of mesmer whats the problem with confusion in pve? Which other class is crippled from the changes to confusion? > > 1. It's a problem with an entire profession. That's enough reason to be concerned about this change. > 2. It's *not* exclusively about some meta benchmarks that apply to a smattering of high-end content. "Fixing" axe leaves a glaring hole in something fundamental in condition play. And it touches possible builds in Mesmer, Warrior, Engineer, Ranger, and Revenant. > > But its not fine only in pve / shrug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walhalla.5473 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > ...seems Anet completely misunderstood the problem. > > > > > > > > No, it's not about the axe. It's about Confusion. **All** of it in PvE. Don't think you have solved the problem by changing two skills. You didn't. > > > > > > Its partially about the axe as well. Removing its confusions and giving it torment is a bad change . > > > > Thing is, if Anet isn't going to change confusion back to its useful state in PvE then changing Axe to applying torment is much better then leaving it with a condition that completely useless > Not much better though. It simply masks the problem and lets Anet ignore it for the next half a year (or more). If they hadn't changed the axe, there would have been some hope they'd be forced to reconsider their fail attempt at Confusion rework. Now however they can stick their heads in the sand and pretend nothing is going on. > > Duct-taping the crumbling fundaments and pretending it will hold is generally not a good idea. It may help a little, but in the long run it doesn't solve anything. > Problem is. Anet isn't going to change it anytime soon. They somehow determined that making confusion getting closer to vanilla is how the game will benefit at all and now they are sticking with it, at least for one expansion. I don't know how they came up with the idea to implement this change for PvE and I would really like to see the logic behind it for PvE. This change still reeks of a lack of thought for PvE Don't get me wrong we should voice our concerns, disappointment, anger and disapproval of this and I really hope that this will speed up a change in the right direction, which we all know what it is.^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rauderi.8706 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > But its not fine only in pve / shrug I was under the impression the PvP/WvW Confusion changes were fairly well received. After all the complaints about the "condi meta" and whatnot, where's the issue? Like, legit question. > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > Don't get me wrong we should voice our concerns, disappointment, anger and disapproval of this and I really hope that this will speed up a change in the right direction, which we all know what it is.^^ We need to keep at it. Provide ideas that help reconcile Confusion for what the devs are thinking versus what we had before. But most importantly do not let this die. If it gets to 40 pages, maybe we'll see enough pressure applied (like with adoption licenses). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Rauderi.8706" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > But its not fine only in pve / shrug > > I was under the impression the PvP/WvW Confusion changes were fairly well received. After all the complaints about the "condi meta" and whatnot, where's the issue? Like, legit question. > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > Don't get me wrong we should voice our concerns, disappointment, anger and disapproval of this and I really hope that this will speed up a change in the right direction, which we all know what it is.^^ > > We need to keep at it. Provide ideas that help reconcile Confusion for what the devs are thinking versus what we had before. But most importantly do not let this die. > If it gets to 40 pages, maybe we'll see enough pressure applied (like with adoption licenses). > The dmg the dot could do was too high making the condition just insane. I hoped that they would lower the scaling in pvp and wvw of the dot and keep it the same in pve but i suppose that wasnt an option. The changes made back in hot fixed confusion for pve but broke pvp and wvw, this is just the reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walhalla.5473 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Rauderi.8706" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > But its not fine only in pve / shrug > > > > I was under the impression the PvP/WvW Confusion changes were fairly well received. After all the complaints about the "condi meta" and whatnot, where's the issue? Like, legit question. > > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > Don't get me wrong we should voice our concerns, disappointment, anger and disapproval of this and I really hope that this will speed up a change in the right direction, which we all know what it is.^^ > > > > We need to keep at it. Provide ideas that help reconcile Confusion for what the devs are thinking versus what we had before. But most importantly do not let this die. > > If it gets to 40 pages, maybe we'll see enough pressure applied (like with adoption licenses). > > > > The dmg the dot could do was too high making the condition just insane. I hoped that they would lower the scaling in pvp and wvw of the dot and keep it the same in pve but i suppose that wasnt an option. The changes made back in hot fixed confusion for pve but broke pvp and wvw, this is just the reverse. Maybe too high in PvP but not in PvE. Also the last change to it changes Confusion in PvE only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > ...seems Anet completely misunderstood the problem. > > > > > > > > > > No, it's not about the axe. It's about Confusion. **All** of it in PvE. Don't think you have solved the problem by changing two skills. You didn't. > > > > > > > > Its partially about the axe as well. Removing its confusions and giving it torment is a bad change . > > > > > > Thing is, if Anet isn't going to change confusion back to its useful state in PvE then changing Axe to applying torment is much better then leaving it with a condition that completely useless > > Not much better though. It simply masks the problem and lets Anet ignore it for the next half a year (or more). If they hadn't changed the axe, there would have been some hope they'd be forced to reconsider their fail attempt at Confusion rework. Now however they can stick their heads in the sand and pretend nothing is going on. > > > > Duct-taping the crumbling fundaments and pretending it will hold is generally not a good idea. It may help a little, but in the long run it doesn't solve anything. > > > > Tell me ouside of mesmer whats the problem with confusion in pve? Which other class is crippled from the changes to confusion. Crippled? Probably no class, but then mesmers weren't crippled either. It's just that many skills simply didn't work. I don't complain that a specific class is broken. I complain that a whole specific condition is broken in pve and - as it is now - shouldn't even be there. Seriously, do you think that only mesmer axe applied confusion in pve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rauderi.8706 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > The dmg the dot could do was too high making the condition just insane. I hoped that they would lower the scaling in pvp and wvw of the dot and keep it the same in pve but i suppose that wasnt an option. The changes made back in hot fixed confusion for pve but broke pvp and wvw, this is just the reverse. Oh yeah, this whole Confusion fuss is about the PvE side. It's entirely possible for ANet to keep two versions of the condition, and the PvP version should stay as it is now. The PvE version needs to have its formulas reverted or redesigned so it's not a trash tier status. Because of the way it's split, I'm not buying that ANet "can't do it" for some reason. It's already there. The numbers just need to be fixed like they were before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"Rauderi.8706" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > The dmg the dot could do was too high making the condition just insane. I hoped that they would lower the scaling in pvp and wvw of the dot and keep it the same in pve but i suppose that wasnt an option. The changes made back in hot fixed confusion for pve but broke pvp and wvw, this is just the reverse. > > Oh yeah, this whole Confusion fuss is about the PvE side. It's entirely possible for ANet to keep two versions of the condition, and the PvP version should stay as it is now. > The PvE version needs to have its formulas reverted or redesigned so it's not a trash tier status. > Because of the way it's split, I'm not buying that ANet "can't do it" for some reason. It's already there. The numbers just need to be fixed like they were before. > No, the dot part of confusion in pvp and wvw inst affected by condition dmg/expertise anymore. To fix condition in pve that would need to change but iirc the devs said they dint want the same skill or mechanic to have diff functionality between modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Rauderi.8706" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > The dmg the dot could do was too high making the condition just insane. I hoped that they would lower the scaling in pvp and wvw of the dot and keep it the same in pve but i suppose that wasnt an option. The changes made back in hot fixed confusion for pve but broke pvp and wvw, this is just the reverse. > > > > Oh yeah, this whole Confusion fuss is about the PvE side. It's entirely possible for ANet to keep two versions of the condition, and the PvP version should stay as it is now. > > The PvE version needs to have its formulas reverted or redesigned so it's not a trash tier status. > > Because of the way it's split, I'm not buying that ANet "can't do it" for some reason. It's already there. The numbers just need to be fixed like they were before. > > > > No, the dot part of confusion in pvp and wvw inst affected by condition dmg/expertise anymore. To fix condition in pve that would need to change but iirc the devs said they dint want the same skill or mechanic to have diff functionality between modes. They can not want it all they like; it doesn’t change the fact it is the only logical solution to keeping Confusion working in both PvE and PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Rauderi.8706" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > The dmg the dot could do was too high making the condition just insane. I hoped that they would lower the scaling in pvp and wvw of the dot and keep it the same in pve but i suppose that wasnt an option. The changes made back in hot fixed confusion for pve but broke pvp and wvw, this is just the reverse. > > > > > > Oh yeah, this whole Confusion fuss is about the PvE side. It's entirely possible for ANet to keep two versions of the condition, and the PvP version should stay as it is now. > > > The PvE version needs to have its formulas reverted or redesigned so it's not a trash tier status. > > > Because of the way it's split, I'm not buying that ANet "can't do it" for some reason. It's already there. The numbers just need to be fixed like they were before. > > > > > > > No, the dot part of confusion in pvp and wvw inst affected by condition dmg/expertise anymore. To fix condition in pve that would need to change but iirc the devs said they dint want the same skill or mechanic to have diff functionality between modes. > > > They can not want it all they like; it doesn’t change the fact it is the only logical solution to keeping Confusion working in both PvE and PvP. > That works both ways. Unless we have acess to the code and the in and out of how things work in the background we cant have it all either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Rauderi.8706" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > The dmg the dot could do was too high making the condition just insane. I hoped that they would lower the scaling in pvp and wvw of the dot and keep it the same in pve but i suppose that wasnt an option. The changes made back in hot fixed confusion for pve but broke pvp and wvw, this is just the reverse. > > > > > > > > Oh yeah, this whole Confusion fuss is about the PvE side. It's entirely possible for ANet to keep two versions of the condition, and the PvP version should stay as it is now. > > > > The PvE version needs to have its formulas reverted or redesigned so it's not a trash tier status. > > > > Because of the way it's split, I'm not buying that ANet "can't do it" for some reason. It's already there. The numbers just need to be fixed like they were before. > > > > > > > > > > No, the dot part of confusion in pvp and wvw inst affected by condition dmg/expertise anymore. To fix condition in pve that would need to change but iirc the devs said they dint want the same skill or mechanic to have diff functionality between modes. > > > > > > They can not want it all they like; it doesn’t change the fact it is the only logical solution to keeping Confusion working in both PvE and PvP. > > > > That works both ways. Unless we have acess to the code and the in and out of how things work in the background we cant have it all either. They split things differently in PvE/PvP all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Rauderi.8706" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > The dmg the dot could do was too high making the condition just insane. I hoped that they would lower the scaling in pvp and wvw of the dot and keep it the same in pve but i suppose that wasnt an option. The changes made back in hot fixed confusion for pve but broke pvp and wvw, this is just the reverse. > > > > > > > > > > Oh yeah, this whole Confusion fuss is about the PvE side. It's entirely possible for ANet to keep two versions of the condition, and the PvP version should stay as it is now. > > > > > The PvE version needs to have its formulas reverted or redesigned so it's not a trash tier status. > > > > > Because of the way it's split, I'm not buying that ANet "can't do it" for some reason. It's already there. The numbers just need to be fixed like they were before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, the dot part of confusion in pvp and wvw inst affected by condition dmg/expertise anymore. To fix condition in pve that would need to change but iirc the devs said they dint want the same skill or mechanic to have diff functionality between modes. > > > > > > > > > They can not want it all they like; it doesn’t change the fact it is the only logical solution to keeping Confusion working in both PvE and PvP. > > > > > > > That works both ways. Unless we have acess to the code and the in and out of how things work in the background we cant have it all either. > > > They split things differently in PvE/PvP all the time. > Most of the time if not always its changes to numbers i.e a skill dealing less dmg, a skill healing less, corrupting less/more condies. I dont believe there has been a total split of a skill or mechanic in game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rauderi.8706 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > I dont believe there has been a total split of a skill or mechanic in game. Confusion has already been split, though. It's right here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusion It's not just the skills having different duration, the actual scaling is different between PvE and PvP. That's already proof enough. The *condition itself* is already split. ANet just needs to fix the scaling so the PvE side, and only the PvE side, matches roughly what it used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conncept.7638 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Rauderi.8706" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > The dmg the dot could do was too high making the condition just insane. I hoped that they would lower the scaling in pvp and wvw of the dot and keep it the same in pve but i suppose that wasnt an option. The changes made back in hot fixed confusion for pve but broke pvp and wvw, this is just the reverse. > > > > > > > > > > Oh yeah, this whole Confusion fuss is about the PvE side. It's entirely possible for ANet to keep two versions of the condition, and the PvP version should stay as it is now. > > > > > The PvE version needs to have its formulas reverted or redesigned so it's not a trash tier status. > > > > > Because of the way it's split, I'm not buying that ANet "can't do it" for some reason. It's already there. The numbers just need to be fixed like they were before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, the dot part of confusion in pvp and wvw inst affected by condition dmg/expertise anymore. To fix condition in pve that would need to change but iirc the devs said they dint want the same skill or mechanic to have diff functionality between modes. > > > > > > > > > They can not want it all they like; it doesn’t change the fact it is the only logical solution to keeping Confusion working in both PvE and PvP. > > > > > > > That works both ways. Unless we have acess to the code and the in and out of how things work in the background we cant have it all either. > > > They split things differently in PvE/PvP all the time. > At one point it was a difficulty that they could only overcome in specific instances, but they said on the old forums over a year ago that their engineers had made new tech for splitting that removed most of the limitations of the previous system, it's why we've seen much more splits since then. This is not a mechanical or engineering obstacle they can't overcome, they chose to do this. And it's not that they even had to choose one over the other, they could have fixed confusion in PvP without any change to PvE, they just did this because they could, because they didn't care about us casual players. EDIT: The old forums may be gone but thankfully Dulfy made an announcement about it. http://dulfy.net/2016/07/01/gw2-more-pve-and-pvp-skill-splits-in-the-future/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirin.7306 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 so mesmer could stack 20+ instantly so they nerfed the condition instead of the stacks? nice.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"Rauderi.8706" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > I dont believe there has been a total split of a skill or mechanic in game. > > Confusion has already been split, though. It's right here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusion > It's not just the skills having different duration, the actual scaling is different between PvE and PvP. That's already proof enough. > The *condition itself* is already split. ANet just needs to fix the scaling so the PvE side, and only the PvE side, matches roughly what it used to be. I'm hoping somebody from ANet can clear this up, but as far as I can tell they killed confusion in PvE for philosophical reasons. Confusion was intended to work a certain way and even though the way it previously worked was better in every way, it was important (for some reason?) that confusion work as intended rather than in a way that actually functions. So, now that confusion works "properly", can we please have it removed entirely from PvE skills and replaced with a viable condition? Or, you know, you could just revert to the pre-nerf version of confusion that worked perfectly fine in PvE and nobody was complaining about. There's always that option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"Rauderi.8706" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > I dont believe there has been a total split of a skill or mechanic in game. > > > > Confusion has already been split, though. It's right here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusion > > It's not just the skills having different duration, the actual scaling is different between PvE and PvP. That's already proof enough. > > The *condition itself* is already split. ANet just needs to fix the scaling so the PvE side, and only the PvE side, matches roughly what it used to be. > > I'm hoping somebody from ANet can clear this up, but as far as I can tell they killed confusion in PvE for philosophical reasons. Confusion was intended to work a certain way and even though the way it previously worked was better in every way, it was important (for some reason?) that confusion work as intended rather than in a way that actually functions. > > So, now that confusion works "properly", can we please have it removed entirely from PvE skills and replaced with a viable condition? Or, you know, you could just revert to the pre-nerf version of confusion that worked perfectly fine in PvE and nobody was complaining about. There's always that option. To make it even more confusing (pun not intended) they recently buffed Torment's passive damage because mobs didn't move about enough to make the trigger portion of it viable in PvE. So what is OK for Torment is apparently not OK for Confusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rauderi.8706 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Another patch with no fix. And judging by the Mesmer forum, it's not about any technical capability. It's a "purity of purpose" call, which is pointless in PvE. The entire reason it got tick damage was to make it useful. Stop waiting for another balance patch season and fix it. Scrub Confusion from PvE and fix all the skills, runes, and sigils, or whatever, but leaving it to rot is unconscionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 > @"Rauderi.8706" said: > Another patch with no fix. And judging by the Mesmer forum, it's not about any technical capability. It's a "purity of purpose" call, which is pointless in PvE. The entire reason it got tick damage was to make it useful. Stop waiting for another balance patch season and fix it. Scrub Confusion from PvE and fix all the skills, runes, and sigils, or whatever, but leaving it to rot is unconscionable. I agree. This is really a slap in the face. Cry of Frustration, Scepter 3, and Jaunt at the very least deserve your attention, ANet. Why do such great work on power mesmer/chrono and then leave condi builds a complete mess? And for what? So it can work the way you want it to, even when the way you want it to work doesn't actually work? Can we get some communication on this? What is the plan here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > Can we get some communication on this? What is the plan here? Not admitting they've messed up, i guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew.1865 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 This whole topic is confusing. Seriously lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rauderi.8706 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 > @"Drew.1865" said: > This whole topic is confusing. Seriously lol. If you sit *very* still for about 10 seconds, you won't take any damage from it. I.e., act like a PvE mob, and you'll be fine! :3 Really though, I'm going to have to dip onto my Confu mesmer to test her out some more, but I can tell it won't be rewarding enough. At its spike damage, Confusion's Condi only hits 8% harder per stack than full Torment, and with constants, maybe hits 20% harder pet stack overall. But, as it sits, Torment does about *4 times the damage* than Confusion per tick. Torment does about 50% bonus damage during its activation. Confusion does 7.5 times its damage during activation, but that's only because the limit of 1/x as it approaches zero is infinity... So again, if we need Purity of Purpose for Confusion: •Again, keep PvP the same. •Passive tick: **Condition damage x .03 +11** That allows for *some* condition damage component without making it as high as bleed/torment. Of course, to make up for the anemic tick damage, we need a much better spike. •Activation: **Condition damage x .15 + 55** If it's going to spike, it should be *huge*, well above Torment since it occurs much less frequently. Would this cause wonky DPS for raids? Yeah-sure, but the meta is going to bring or not bring Confusion based on the fight anyway, and it's so niche that it's not worth fussing over. (Unless there's some concern about tank aggro, like how my Marksman Hunter could damage spike enough to almost pull it from the tank. :P) But it addresses the point that Confusion needs a way to stand out, and if it needs that identity as huge-burst damage punishment, that's how to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzet.3614 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > @"Rezzet.3614" said: > > this is an excellent welcome change i wanted since 2013 > > How... what? This is exactly how confusion worked in 2013, confusions passive tick wasn't even added to the game until 2015. i play many videogames the idead of there being a status that punishes skill spam isnt just on gw2 i think it would be better if it had fixed stacking damage that doesnt rely on stats besides i think more conditions should be improved to work against condi builds as well, or the ones that do , like Chill or blind could be more accesible to other professions other than necromancer and mesmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 At this point it might just be better to make confusion only deal damage on skill use in PvP/WvW, and only have it deal tick damage (just like bleed and burn) in PvE. Then bring the tick value back up to that of bleed. Yes, it takes away Confusion's uniqueness in PvE, but it removes all of the balancing woes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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