Why the change to scourge condi?

[Lexan.5930]

my origonal post talked about necro condition damage in high level pve, namely raids. A minion master build or a high sustain build is not used in raids due to the lower damage output. IE you take lingering curse for more damage over parasitic contain.

 

With the delay on shade skills and reduced torment output from utility skills, the necro's condition damage output in raids has dropped below other condi builds. What was already a mediocre condi damage build compared to rangers, mesmers, warrior and revenants has now become less effective.

[Obtena.7952]

Maybe so, but that's again, an appeal to a perspective that Anet does not have. They do not balance according to what other classes are doing; they do not have a meta mentality. It's not necessary in the game; it would actually be a burden to do so for them for little reason but to legitimize a gaming philosophy that players are injecting into the game that is opposite to their own. If they were doing that, this thread wouldn't exist; people wouldn't complain about where their classes' damage ranked for instanced content.

[Lexan.5930]

they somewhat have a meta mentality, in that they dont want a game meta, but every class has a certain feel they are going for Thus the change to shades being obstructed when the necro has no LoS, the changes to dhuum fire on shade skills, the most recent change to boon conversion, condi cleanse, and condi durration that started this whole thing.

 

Necro as a whole has been kept as a low tier class by anet

 

EDIT: Actually thy do have a meta mentality. Every time they do a balance pass they state that they want certain parts of a class to become stronger for a little while to encourage people to play with different weapons and skills. So far the changes to necro to change play style is axe for power damag, reaper shroud for burst damag, and dont play condi because everyone else does it better.

[Obtena.7952]

If you are convinced Anet is following a meta mentality, please tell us why after 5 years we have:

 

1. a large range in damage performance over classes (and healing for that matter)

2. balance patches that consistently have changes that defy the direction a meta-balancing direction would take

3. no reference from Anet about performance between classes

 

There is NOTHING in this game that indicates Anet as adopted a meta mentality that goes against their own play how you want mentality. if you see a meta mentality, it's because you don't know what it means in the first place and justifies your complaint.

[Irokou.3215]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> If you are convinced Anet is following a meta mentality, please tell us why after 5 years we have:

>

> 1. a large range in damage performance over classes (and healing for that matter)

> 2. balance patches that consistently have changes that defy the direction a meta-balancing direction would take

> 3. no reference from Anet about performance between classes

>

> There is NOTHING in this game that indicates Anet as adopted a meta mentality that goes against their own play how you want mentality. if you see a meta mentality, it's because you don't know what it means in the first place and justifies your complaint.

 

The answer to each of those is that Anet is incompetent with regards to balancing their game. If they weren't then none of the points you mentioned would even warrant discussion as they would then be nonexistent issues. In a multiplayer game, it is a GIVEN that an huge disparity in performance regarding classes will only elicit animosity within the community. Developers, knowing this, tailor their game in such a way to minimize "meta" toxicity by making smart changes that are reflected in having each class be worthwhile within the context of player expectations. If there are glaring issues within a class' arsenal, then they need to be meaningfully addressed asap.

 

Simply because Anet sold the game upon a "play how you want" philosophy does not mean that the playerbase embraces that, as evident by the bias against necromancer and off-meta builds from many skilled players through the years. An MMO lives and dies by it's community, despite developer intent, if the playerbase deems the balance problematic, then it simply is, and it would be wise to make proper adjustments less people become disillusioned with the state of the game.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> If you are convinced Anet is following a meta mentality, please tell us why after 5 years we have:

>

> 1. a large range in damage performance over classes (and healing for that matter)

> 2. balance patches that consistently have changes that defy the direction a meta-balancing direction would take

> 3. no reference from Anet about performance between classes

>

> There is NOTHING in this game that indicates Anet as adopted a meta mentality that goes against their own play how you want mentality. if you see a meta mentality, it's because you don't know what it means in the first place and justifies your complaint.

 

1. Well, you are wrong, in fact, since PoF it seemed that we were on the way to close in on an average of 30k power dps for all professions. Just anet couldn't seem to correct this for skills that outperform on large hitbox.

2. Well... No. Balance patch are always faithfull to one thing: They always fix any build that seem to have to much survivability in PvP. Anet do not want a possible bunker meta in this gamemode. Alongside this, they tend to try to reduce the effectiveness of some overperforming skills like we've seen for Icebow.

3. Anet do not compare profession between each other but tend to specify when a profession seem to be in a bad or good spot compared to the "average" of the professions. That's what they say to introduce every single major balance change. You know the little introduction: "_For this quarter we decided to focus on... which seem in a bad spot because..., that's why..._"

 

 

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Lexan.5930" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > OK ... you can say whatever you want about your definition of unbalanced ... and I can to. Ironic that you're arguing with me about what my definition is ... based on what yours is. It's not even relevant to the discussion. The build does some things in the game that go beyond AFK farming ice spiders in BFF; being sensational doesn't lessen what the build is capable of doing. If you just want to relegate it down to a bunker build to win an argument, so be it. I'm not here to argue with you about definitions. I can say that you should probably take less offense to the idea that necro can actually excel at doing something; getting bent out of shape serves no purpose, unless your goal is just to play wordgames.

> > > >

> > > > Doesn't every single class have such a bunker build, and mostly even more effective at it as well, one thing is for sure: less selfish!

> > >

> > > The build I'm talking about ISN'T a bunker build though .. but it survives just as easily if not better than one that you could make with whatever class you want because of the stupid mechanics behind how mobs interact with minions.

> > >

> > > All that is besides the point though; this isn't a discussion about bunker builds (that was a misdirection by someone else in the first place); it was related to the idea that someone was lamenting the worthless condi Scourge in PVE because of the changes. That's quite laughable if you actually play one.

> > >

> > > The premise of the thread is pretty weak to begin with; I mean, if people aren't ackowlegding the strength of the Scouge in WvW and PVP, they just aren't being very honest. Did it adversely affect PVE? Maybe, but I've seen very few instances where game changes DIDN'T affect performance in some way.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > any necro build with minions you complain about is the same problem with mesmer and their clones grabbing and holding "aggro" and also being able to do rediculous damage, interupts, and condis from range. And with the phantasm changes it's even better.

> >

> > Due to the delay on the shade pulse in pve and the reduced durration of torment on punishment skills, condi scourge in pve has lost dps and is again being beat out by many other condi classes. It brings condi necro's back to mid HoT days where it's brought for epi and not much else. Unfortunately any "advantage" we got with burning and torment applications gets beat out by any well geared berzerker or renegade.

>

> Yup, but comparisons to other classes isn't very relevant to begin with. Anet doesn't appear to make any attempt to have equivalent performance between classes. I've played a Mesmer clone vs. a Necro Minion though ... it's not the same. While the clones do some work to take aggro, the mob WILL bounce between them until it finds you. I don't have that problem on Necro minions. Probably because the minions actually do damage for you.

>

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > OK ... you can say whatever you want about your definition of unbalanced ... and I can to. Ironic that you're arguing with me about what my definition is ... based on what yours is. It's not even relevant to the discussion. The build does some things in the game that go beyond AFK farming ice spiders in BFF; being sensational doesn't lessen what the build is capable of doing. If you just want to relegate it down to a bunker build to win an argument, so be it. I'm not here to argue with you about definitions. I can say that you should probably take less offense to the idea that necro can actually excel at doing something; getting bent out of shape serves no purpose, unless your goal is just to play wordgames.

> > > >

> > > > Doesn't every single class have such a bunker build, and mostly even more effective at it as well, one thing is for sure: less selfish!

> > >

> > > The build I'm talking about ISN'T a bunker build though .. but it survives just as easily if not better than one that you could make with whatever class you want because of the stupid mechanics behind how mobs interact with minions.

> > >

> > > All that is besides the point though; this isn't a discussion about bunker builds (that was a misdirection by someone else in the first place); it was related to the idea that someone was lamenting the worthless condi Scourge in PVE because of the changes. That's quite laughable if you actually play one.

> > >

> > > The premise of the thread is pretty weak to begin with; I mean, if people aren't ackowlegding the strength of the Scouge in WvW and PVP, they just aren't being very honest. Did it adversely affect PVE? Maybe, but I've seen very few instances where game changes DIDN'T affect performance in some way.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > To be more accurate, the build you are talking about is a build that use traitlines that are mainly defensive (DM/BM) alongside a line which could be seen as offensive (Curse) but that you take for a trait that can only be qualifyed as defensive. On top on that, this spec use gear with 2 defensive stat (toughness and vitality).

>

> I think I need to clarify something. You are correct about the traits, but the gear is pure Condi ... or as close as you can get to it (Vipers or Sinister). Even with a full out condi offensive build, I perform BETTER than any tank does. I was replying to someone that was downplaying the strength of the build to make their point stronger, except the relevant comparison wasn't a bunker build in the first place; I suppose the discussion becomes a little off topic then:

>

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBLRhG2IDN0Ujd1gbNwejjghaOD7w6GTgAICknQKUCA-ThTAQBU4ACcNlBBUfgYUilOzTR7JAaEwgSwZoBRanAgXs/ohQBHIAAcQAio6PMRphAgaA-e

>

> That's an old version, but it's actually light on the defensive traits. I'm not even sure the BM traits are all that useful in it anymore.

 

The problem is. You can only play this in open world. And in open world you can rven run completly naked.

There are almost zero challenges.

 

But try to play something like this in raids or fraktals. Everyone will laugh at you then kick you.

Try to play that build in pvp. Everyone will laugh at you then easily kill you.

Try to play that build in wvw. Well its the same like pvp.

 

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need.

 

Sure. But every class has more dmg now. Look at warrior. Pre pof when zerker ps warrior was a thing, you were like "uh look at dis, i did 60k dmg with gs 2"

Now its like "uh look at dis, i did 120k dmg with axe 5 (or 4?)" Im not that into warrior, cause its lame to play.

 

And for necro: it doesnt have more dmg than pre pof.

Before you could pull like 32-34k dps as condi reaper.

Now its back down to 29k. Exactly the same like condi-scourge

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need.

>

> Sure. But every class has more dmg now. Look at warrior. Pre pof when zerker ps warrior was a thing, you were like "uh look at dis, i did 60k dmg with gs 2"

> Now its like "uh look at dis, i did 120k dmg with axe 5 (or 4?)" Im not that into warrior, cause its lame to play.

>

> And for necro: it doesnt have more dmg than pre pof.

> Before you could pull like 32-34k dps as condi reaper.

> Now its back down to 29k. Exactly the same like condi-scourge

 

It's really strange indeed, I've been watching a lot of benchmarks coming in these days, and there is NO class next to Necro that hits under the 30K with it's best DPS build. In fact, there is none that hits under 32K even! And Necro hits 29K at best. I really start to think that we must be really stupid, and miss something incredibly OP that the Necro is capable of to counterbalance the huge difference between us and the rest of the pack.

Please someone (preferably at ANet), help us out! Or just admit ANet, that you made a mistake! Btw, don't come with SUPERniche things, like we're really good in solo-ing HP's .... (which we aren't even best at: try Warrior, and you'll be amazed, but I'll give you that one @"Obtena.7952", we might even end up in the top 3 for that one! Not a very useful one, but at least it's something. I guess we're also not that ineffective against dredge either ... probably still not the best tho, ow almost forgot, Reapers are made for: the southern parts of Ember Bay (vulnerable when chilled ...), if we almost extinct, you might be able to find a few of us there :) ).

[Lexan.5930]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need.

> >

> > Sure. But every class has more dmg now. Look at warrior. Pre pof when zerker ps warrior was a thing, you were like "uh look at dis, i did 60k dmg with gs 2"

> > Now its like "uh look at dis, i did 120k dmg with axe 5 (or 4?)" Im not that into warrior, cause its lame to play.

> >

> > And for necro: it doesnt have more dmg than pre pof.

> > Before you could pull like 32-34k dps as condi reaper.

> > Now its back down to 29k. Exactly the same like condi-scourge

>

> It's really strange indeed, I've been watching a lot of benchmarks coming in these days, and there is NO class next to Necro that hits under the 30K with it's best DPS build. In fact, there is none that hits under 32K even! And Necro hits 29K at best. I really start to think that we must be really stupid, and miss something incredibly OP that the Necro is capable of to counterbalance the huge difference between us and the rest of the pack.

> Please someone (preferably at ANet), help us out! Or just admit ANet, that you made a mistake! Btw, don't come with SUPERniche things, like we're really good in solo-ing HP's .... (which we aren't even best at: try Warrior, and you'll be amazed, but I'll give you that one @"Obtena.7952", we might even end up in the top 3 for that one! Not a very useful one, but at least it's something. I guess we're also not that ineffective against dredge either ... probably still not the best tho, ow almost forgot, Reapers are made for: the southern parts of Ember Bay (vulnerable when chilled ...), if we almost extinct, you might be able to find a few of us there :) ).

 

While I'm not one to say that hole max dps is the best thing to judge and that real boss fights have many more mechanics that reduce real dps, being a raider myself and seeing the actual numbers in raids become reduced since launch has been disheartening.

 

Necro has abilities that some classes don't, but we also dont have a lot of abilities that other classes do. Being raid viable for a fight should be something the devs look at hecause raiding is a part of the game. PvP is already in balanced and will allways be because huge burst is fun for those doing it and encourages people to keep playing those builds.

 

Necro still needs some help in the sustained damage section. Dread was a cool idea but the uptime on fear is too low to make it viable in PvE. Where people complain that fear is too strong in PvP, but forget that resistance negates its effect and wont even take off a stab charge.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> Please someone (preferably at ANet), help us out! Or just admit ANet, that you made a mistake! Btw, don't come with SUPERniche things, like we're really good in solo-ing HP's .... (which we aren't even best at: try Warrior, and you'll be amazed, but I'll give you that one @"Obtena.7952", we might even end up in the top 3 for that one! Not a very useful one, but at least it's something. I guess we're also not that ineffective against dredge either ... probably still not the best tho, ow almost forgot, Reapers are made for: the southern parts of Ember Bay (vulnerable when chilled ...), if we almost extinct, you might be able to find a few of us there :) ).

 

You know it's quite subjeective to say that the necromancer have top 3 HP/s.

- An elementalist that build in water and play with it's water skills/signet of restauration can have pretty high HP/s

- A thief that trait for 15% of it's crit damage healing him and take it's healing signet also is a good contender.

- Warrior, obviously, is strong in the area.

- Ranger might be very decent ain't he?

- Ventari revenants...

- Guardian... lol.

 

Let's say that the only 2 that I'm not sure that they might be at the same level of HP/s as this minionmancer thingy are mesmers and engineer. The whole "necromancer's survivability" argument is flawed in so many way that it's just infuriating. The reality is more that other professions have option to build for damage and wouldn't stray away from those options while the necromancer don't have any real options, leading players to resign themself and play with their underperforming defensive tools.

 

 

[Lexan.5930]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > Please someone (preferably at ANet), help us out! Or just admit ANet, that you made a mistake! Btw, don't come with SUPERniche things, like we're really good in solo-ing HP's .... (which we aren't even best at: try Warrior, and you'll be amazed, but I'll give you that one @"Obtena.7952", we might even end up in the top 3 for that one! Not a very useful one, but at least it's something. I guess we're also not that ineffective against dredge either ... probably still not the best tho, ow almost forgot, Reapers are made for: the southern parts of Ember Bay (vulnerable when chilled ...), if we almost extinct, you might be able to find a few of us there :) ).

>

> You know it's quite subjeective to say that the necromancer have top 3 HP/s.

> - An elementalist that build in water and play with it's water skills/signet of restauration can have pretty high HP/s

> - A thief that trait for 15% of it's crit damage healing him and take it's healing signet also is a good contender.

> - Warrior, obviously, is strong in the area.

> - Ranger might be very decent ain't he?

> - Ventari revenants...

> - Guardian... lol.

>

> Let's say that the only 2 that I'm not sure that they might be at the same level of HP/s as this minionmancer thingy are mesmers and engineer. The whole "necromancer's survivability" argument is flawed in so many way that it's just infuriating. The reality is more that other professions have option to build for damage and wouldn't stray away from those options while the necromancer don't have any real options, leading players to resign themself and play with their underperforming defensive tools.

>

>

 

I've been saying something similar for a long time. Other classes have many many more options to work with. Wether its defensive options like block or invulnerability of large passive healing (blood is small healing only on attack, not passive health per second) or even more important mobility. Necromancer lacks options and mobility.

 

Mobility may never be given to necro do to what anet calls necromancer defensive options, but any defenve we have is circumnavigated by other classes offensive abilities. Our offensive abilities are circumvented by ither classes mobility or defensive options (ie invulnerability)

[cobracommander.5861]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need.

 

What game are you playing lol.

[cobracommander.5861]

Everyone here has let this thread get hijacked by an open world pve RP MM. scourge is subpar is raids and nobody would ever take a power reaper. I pull 27.5 dps on power reaper and that would get me laughed out of town. Whether people like it or not, if we want to play high end content on the classes we want to play, it has to have viable builds that make it worth it. Otherwise you’re just RP. Less QQ, more pew pew on getting some dps boosts.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Irokou.3215" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > If you are convinced Anet is following a meta mentality, please tell us why after 5 years we have:

> >

> > 1. a large range in damage performance over classes (and healing for that matter)

> > 2. balance patches that consistently have changes that defy the direction a meta-balancing direction would take

> > 3. no reference from Anet about performance between classes

> >

> > There is NOTHING in this game that indicates Anet as adopted a meta mentality that goes against their own play how you want mentality. if you see a meta mentality, it's because you don't know what it means in the first place and justifies your complaint.

>

> The answer to each of those is that Anet is incompetent with regards to balancing their game.

 

Could be ... or it could be they don't need to balance the class performance because there is no holy trinity and it's not necessary. Game history shows you don't need performance balance to complete content ... so what's Anet's motivation to provide it? There isn't any. It's a nice to have, not a necessity. **Either way** ... we don't have it after 5 years, why are people so convinced it's just around the corner? That it's something Anet strive to provide? Those people are unrealistic. They don't observe how the game has evolved. The don't know how to make the connection between Anet's game philosophy and what that means for the practical implementation.

 

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need.

>

> Sure. **But every class** has more dmg now. Look at warrior. Pre pof when zerker ps warrior was a thing, you were like "uh look at dis, i did 60k dmg with gs 2"

> Now its like "uh look at dis, i did 120k dmg with axe 5 (or 4?)" Im not that into warrior, cause its lame to play.

>

> And for necro: it doesnt have more dmg than pre pof.

> Before you could pull like 32-34k dps as condi reaper.

> Now its back down to 29k. Exactly the same like condi-scourge

 

OH, there you go with irrelevant meta mentality again; comparing to EVERY other class. I'm not being obtuse here. Nothing about this game indicates that Anet is on some grand plan to ensure classes to have equivalent performance, nothing. I can't honestly see where people get ANY indication Anet cares about the performance between classes, aside from just _hoping_ it's true.

 

> @"cobracommander.5861" said:

> Everyone here has let this thread get hijacked by an open world pve RP MM. scourge is subpar is raids and nobody would ever take a power reaper. I pull 27.5 dps on power reaper and that would get me laughed out of town. Whether people like it or not, if we want to play high end content on the classes we want to play, it has to have viable builds that make it worth it. Otherwise you’re just RP. Less QQ, more pew pew on getting some dps boosts.

 

Just no ... if you want to play high end content on the classes and builds you want to play, you need to play with people that think JUST LIKE YOU.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Irokou.3215" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > If you are convinced Anet is following a meta mentality, please tell us why after 5 years we have:

> > >

> > > 1. a large range in damage performance over classes (and healing for that matter)

> > > 2. balance patches that consistently have changes that defy the direction a meta-balancing direction would take

> > > 3. no reference from Anet about performance between classes

> > >

> > > There is NOTHING in this game that indicates Anet as adopted a meta mentality that goes against their own play how you want mentality. if you see a meta mentality, it's because you don't know what it means in the first place and justifies your complaint.

> >

> > The answer to each of those is that Anet is incompetent with regards to balancing their game.

>

> Could be ... or it could be they don't need to balance the class performance because there is no holy trinity and it's not necessary. Game history shows you don't need performance balance to complete content ... so what's Anet's motivation to provide it? There isn't any. It's a nice to have, not a necessity. **Either way** ... we don't have it after 5 years, why are people so convinced it's just around the corner? That it's something Anet strive to provide? Those people are unrealistic. They don't observe how the game has evolved. The don't know how to make the connection between Anet's game philosophy and what that means for the practical implementation.

>

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need.

> >

> > Sure. **But every class** has more dmg now. Look at warrior. Pre pof when zerker ps warrior was a thing, you were like "uh look at dis, i did 60k dmg with gs 2"

> > Now its like "uh look at dis, i did 120k dmg with axe 5 (or 4?)" Im not that into warrior, cause its lame to play.

> >

> > And for necro: it doesnt have more dmg than pre pof.

> > Before you could pull like 32-34k dps as condi reaper.

> > Now its back down to 29k. Exactly the same like condi-scourge

>

> OH, there you go with irrelevant meta mentality again; comparing to EVERY other class. I'm not being obtuse here. Nothing about this game indicates that Anet is on some grand plan to ensure classes to have equivalent performance, nothing. I can't honestly see where people get ANY indication Anet cares about the performance between classes, aside from just _hoping_ it's true.

>

> > @"cobracommander.5861" said:

> > Everyone here has let this thread get hijacked by an open world pve RP MM. scourge is subpar is raids and nobody would ever take a power reaper. I pull 27.5 dps on power reaper and that would get me laughed out of town. Whether people like it or not, if we want to play high end content on the classes we want to play, it has to have viable builds that make it worth it. Otherwise you’re just RP. Less QQ, more pew pew on getting some dps boosts.

>

> Just no ... if you want to play high end content on the classes and builds you want to play, you need to play with people that think JUST LIKE YOU.

 

No thats not right. We are not playing any build we want to play. We play the meta build yes. Know why? Cause it deals most dmg, and still is like 1-5k behind every other class.

 

But i guess u arent a raider, else you would understand.

 

And sure im not always playing meta. Having that barrier heal in raids, sometimes saves ppls asses. But still. We only do littly changes and there we know, we loose some dmg.

 

From what you said i guess you are one of these open world players. That even the tiniest thing of challenge is too much. Because you play open world and there is literally no challenge because of all the qq of ppl like you, about open world pve or story being too hard.

 

Sure i understand that ele has more dmg than necro. But a difference of 20k on big target seems way too over the top. In burst ele can even do double the necro dps.

 

Sorry. But its really bad design, to have a charakter only for niches. And thats, what necro is right now.

 

The boss spawns some adds? Well lets take a necro for epidemic, so eles can keep hitting the boss.

Boss does one big attack once in a while? Lets take necro, that uses his heal, so eles kan keep hitting the boss, and doesnt have to care for dodges.

 

And thats, what necro mancer currently is.

 

A pretty bad version of bannerslave that you dont need at all encounters. Or better to say, that you dont need at any encounter cause there are way better options to take.

 

And i think. Every charakter should have the right to go raiding.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Irokou.3215" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > If you are convinced Anet is following a meta mentality, please tell us why after 5 years we have:

> > > >

> > > > 1. a large range in damage performance over classes (and healing for that matter)

> > > > 2. balance patches that consistently have changes that defy the direction a meta-balancing direction would take

> > > > 3. no reference from Anet about performance between classes

> > > >

> > > > There is NOTHING in this game that indicates Anet as adopted a meta mentality that goes against their own play how you want mentality. if you see a meta mentality, it's because you don't know what it means in the first place and justifies your complaint.

> > >

> > > The answer to each of those is that Anet is incompetent with regards to balancing their game.

> >

> > Could be ... or it could be they don't need to balance the class performance because there is no holy trinity and it's not necessary. Game history shows you don't need performance balance to complete content ... so what's Anet's motivation to provide it? There isn't any. It's a nice to have, not a necessity. **Either way** ... we don't have it after 5 years, why are people so convinced it's just around the corner? That it's something Anet strive to provide? Those people are unrealistic. They don't observe how the game has evolved. The don't know how to make the connection between Anet's game philosophy and what that means for the practical implementation.

> >

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need.

> > >

> > > Sure. **But every class** has more dmg now. Look at warrior. Pre pof when zerker ps warrior was a thing, you were like "uh look at dis, i did 60k dmg with gs 2"

> > > Now its like "uh look at dis, i did 120k dmg with axe 5 (or 4?)" Im not that into warrior, cause its lame to play.

> > >

> > > And for necro: it doesnt have more dmg than pre pof.

> > > Before you could pull like 32-34k dps as condi reaper.

> > > Now its back down to 29k. Exactly the same like condi-scourge

> >

> > OH, there you go with irrelevant meta mentality again; comparing to EVERY other class. I'm not being obtuse here. Nothing about this game indicates that Anet is on some grand plan to ensure classes to have equivalent performance, nothing. I can't honestly see where people get ANY indication Anet cares about the performance between classes, aside from just _hoping_ it's true.

> >

> > > @"cobracommander.5861" said:

> > > Everyone here has let this thread get hijacked by an open world pve RP MM. scourge is subpar is raids and nobody would ever take a power reaper. I pull 27.5 dps on power reaper and that would get me laughed out of town. Whether people like it or not, if we want to play high end content on the classes we want to play, it has to have viable builds that make it worth it. Otherwise you’re just RP. Less QQ, more pew pew on getting some dps boosts.

> >

> > Just no ... if you want to play high end content on the classes and builds you want to play, you need to play with people that think JUST LIKE YOU.

>

> No thats not right. We are not playing any build we want to play. We play the meta build yes. Know why? Cause it deals most dmg, and still is like 1-5k behind every other class.

>

> But i guess u arent a raider, else you would understand.

>

> And sure im not always playing meta. Having that barrier heal in raids, sometimes saves ppls kitten. But still. We only do littly changes and there we know, we loose some dmg.

>

> From what you said i guess you are one of these open world players. That even the tiniest thing of challenge is too much. Because you play open world and there is literally no challenge because of all the qq of ppl like you, about open world pve or story being too hard.

>

> Sure i understand that ele has more dmg than necro. But a difference of 20k on big target seems way too over the top. In burst ele can even do double the necro dps.

>

> Sorry. But its really bad design, to have a charakter only for niches. And thats, what necro is right now.

>

> The boss spawns some adds? Well lets take a necro for epidemic, so eles can keep hitting the boss.

> Boss does one big attack once in a while? Lets take necro, that uses his heal, so eles kan keep hitting the boss, and doesnt have to care for dodges.

>

> And thats, what necro mancer currently is.

>

> A pretty bad version of bannerslave that you dont need at all encounters. Or better to say, that you dont need at any encounter cause there are way better options to take.

>

> And i think. Every charakter should have the right to go raiding.

>

>

 

The only difference between you and me is that you think that somehow (I suspect from drinking the meta kool aid) you have convinced yourself necro is currently 'wrong'. I've come to realize there isn't any right or wrong, because I can see how the game is designed and the game philosophy that Anet has used, is using and continues to use.

 

I will disagree you can't raid with a Necro ... that's just a function of who you decide to raid with. The problem HERE is that you choose the meta path, so no, you don't get to raid with your necro because it's not widely accepted as meta. You have artificially dismissed it as a valid raiding class to begin with because of what you have accepted necro SHOULD be; hardly a relevant assessment. Your perspective makes little sense in a game where people ARE doing raids playing their necros. They must look at you and think "What planet is he from?" "Oh, that weird one where people follow rules that aren't needed".

 

You got two choices man ... play with the people that think the way you do .... or have someone tell you how to play so you can play with the people telling you how to play. Player-made problems require player-made solutions. If you buy into and prop up the player-determined meta mentality (as the wording of your posts suggest you are), letting it guide your play, you can't complain when that same concept tells you your class sucks, then point the finger at the people trying to enforce the OPPOSITE ideas in the game. That's nonsense.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Irokou.3215" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > If you are convinced Anet is following a meta mentality, please tell us why after 5 years we have:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. a large range in damage performance over classes (and healing for that matter)

> > > > > 2. balance patches that consistently have changes that defy the direction a meta-balancing direction would take

> > > > > 3. no reference from Anet about performance between classes

> > > > >

> > > > > There is NOTHING in this game that indicates Anet as adopted a meta mentality that goes against their own play how you want mentality. if you see a meta mentality, it's because you don't know what it means in the first place and justifies your complaint.

> > > >

> > > > The answer to each of those is that Anet is incompetent with regards to balancing their game.

> > >

> > > Could be ... or it could be they don't need to balance the class performance because there is no holy trinity and it's not necessary. Game history shows you don't need performance balance to complete content ... so what's Anet's motivation to provide it? There isn't any. It's a nice to have, not a necessity. **Either way** ... we don't have it after 5 years, why are people so convinced it's just around the corner? That it's something Anet strive to provide? Those people are unrealistic. They don't observe how the game has evolved. The don't know how to make the connection between Anet's game philosophy and what that means for the practical implementation.

> > >

> > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need.

> > > >

> > > > Sure. **But every class** has more dmg now. Look at warrior. Pre pof when zerker ps warrior was a thing, you were like "uh look at dis, i did 60k dmg with gs 2"

> > > > Now its like "uh look at dis, i did 120k dmg with axe 5 (or 4?)" Im not that into warrior, cause its lame to play.

> > > >

> > > > And for necro: it doesnt have more dmg than pre pof.

> > > > Before you could pull like 32-34k dps as condi reaper.

> > > > Now its back down to 29k. Exactly the same like condi-scourge

> > >

> > > OH, there you go with irrelevant meta mentality again; comparing to EVERY other class. I'm not being obtuse here. Nothing about this game indicates that Anet is on some grand plan to ensure classes to have equivalent performance, nothing. I can't honestly see where people get ANY indication Anet cares about the performance between classes, aside from just _hoping_ it's true.

> > >

> > > > @"cobracommander.5861" said:

> > > > Everyone here has let this thread get hijacked by an open world pve RP MM. scourge is subpar is raids and nobody would ever take a power reaper. I pull 27.5 dps on power reaper and that would get me laughed out of town. Whether people like it or not, if we want to play high end content on the classes we want to play, it has to have viable builds that make it worth it. Otherwise you’re just RP. Less QQ, more pew pew on getting some dps boosts.

> > >

> > > Just no ... if you want to play high end content on the classes and builds you want to play, you need to play with people that think JUST LIKE YOU.

> >

> > No thats not right. We are not playing any build we want to play. We play the meta build yes. Know why? Cause it deals most dmg, and still is like 1-5k behind every other class.

> >

> > But i guess u arent a raider, else you would understand.

> >

> > And sure im not always playing meta. Having that barrier heal in raids, sometimes saves ppls kitten. But still. We only do littly changes and there we know, we loose some dmg.

> >

> > From what you said i guess you are one of these open world players. That even the tiniest thing of challenge is too much. Because you play open world and there is literally no challenge because of all the qq of ppl like you, about open world pve or story being too hard.

> >

> > Sure i understand that ele has more dmg than necro. But a difference of 20k on big target seems way too over the top. In burst ele can even do double the necro dps.

> >

> > Sorry. But its really bad design, to have a charakter only for niches. And thats, what necro is right now.

> >

> > The boss spawns some adds? Well lets take a necro for epidemic, so eles can keep hitting the boss.

> > Boss does one big attack once in a while? Lets take necro, that uses his heal, so eles kan keep hitting the boss, and doesnt have to care for dodges.

> >

> > And thats, what necro mancer currently is.

> >

> > A pretty bad version of bannerslave that you dont need at all encounters. Or better to say, that you dont need at any encounter cause there are way better options to take.

> >

> > And i think. Every charakter should have the right to go raiding.

> >

> >

>

> The only difference between you and me is that you think that somehow (I suspect from drinking the meta kool aid) you have convinced yourself necro is currently 'wrong'. I've come to realize there isn't any right or wrong, because I can see how the game is designed and the game philosophy that Anet has used, is using and continues to use.

>

> I will disagree you can't raid with a Necro ... that's just a function of who you decide to raid with. The problem HERE is that you choose the meta path, so no, you don't get to raid with your necro because it's not widely accepted as meta. You have artificially dismissed it as a valid raiding class to begin with because of what you have accepted necro SHOULD be; hardly a relevant assessment. Your perspective makes little sense in a game where people ARE doing raids playing their necros. They must look at you and think "What planet is he from?" "Oh, that weird one where people follow rules that aren't needed".

>

> You got two choices man ... play with the people that think the way you do .... or have someone tell you how to play so you can play with the people telling you how to play. Player-made problems require player-made solutions. If you buy into and prop up the player-determined meta mentality (as the wording of your posts suggest you are), letting it guide your play, you can't complain when that same concept tells you your class sucks, then point the finger at the people trying to enforce the OPPOSITE ideas in the game. That's nonsense.

 

Well. In my group we often run necro just because add-clear. Even at gorse.

 

But for pugs. Which is a big part of the game as well.... well they wont take that necro player

 

And yes. For me gw2 is only about raiding or wvw zerging.

Other stuff isnt challenging enough

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Irokou.3215" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > If you are convinced Anet is following a meta mentality, please tell us why after 5 years we have:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. a large range in damage performance over classes (and healing for that matter)

> > > > > 2. balance patches that consistently have changes that defy the direction a meta-balancing direction would take

> > > > > 3. no reference from Anet about performance between classes

> > > > >

> > > > > There is NOTHING in this game that indicates Anet as adopted a meta mentality that goes against their own play how you want mentality. if you see a meta mentality, it's because you don't know what it means in the first place and justifies your complaint.

> > > >

> > > > The answer to each of those is that Anet is incompetent with regards to balancing their game.

> > >

> > > Could be ... or it could be they don't need to balance the class performance because there is no holy trinity and it's not necessary. Game history shows you don't need performance balance to complete content ... so what's Anet's motivation to provide it? There isn't any. It's a nice to have, not a necessity. **Either way** ... we don't have it after 5 years, why are people so convinced it's just around the corner? That it's something Anet strive to provide? Those people are unrealistic. They don't observe how the game has evolved. The don't know how to make the connection between Anet's game philosophy and what that means for the practical implementation.

> > >

> > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need.

> > > >

> > > > Sure. **But every class** has more dmg now. Look at warrior. Pre pof when zerker ps warrior was a thing, you were like "uh look at dis, i did 60k dmg with gs 2"

> > > > Now its like "uh look at dis, i did 120k dmg with axe 5 (or 4?)" Im not that into warrior, cause its lame to play.

> > > >

> > > > And for necro: it doesnt have more dmg than pre pof.

> > > > Before you could pull like 32-34k dps as condi reaper.

> > > > Now its back down to 29k. Exactly the same like condi-scourge

> > >

> > > OH, there you go with irrelevant meta mentality again; comparing to EVERY other class. I'm not being obtuse here. Nothing about this game indicates that Anet is on some grand plan to ensure classes to have equivalent performance, nothing. I can't honestly see where people get ANY indication Anet cares about the performance between classes, aside from just _hoping_ it's true.

> > >

> > > > @"cobracommander.5861" said:

> > > > Everyone here has let this thread get hijacked by an open world pve RP MM. scourge is subpar is raids and nobody would ever take a power reaper. I pull 27.5 dps on power reaper and that would get me laughed out of town. Whether people like it or not, if we want to play high end content on the classes we want to play, it has to have viable builds that make it worth it. Otherwise you’re just RP. Less QQ, more pew pew on getting some dps boosts.

> > >

> > > Just no ... if you want to play high end content on the classes and builds you want to play, you need to play with people that think JUST LIKE YOU.

> >

> > No thats not right. We are not playing any build we want to play. We play the meta build yes. Know why? Cause it deals most dmg, and still is like 1-5k behind every other class.

> >

> > But i guess u arent a raider, else you would understand.

> >

> > And sure im not always playing meta. Having that barrier heal in raids, sometimes saves ppls kitten. But still. We only do littly changes and there we know, we loose some dmg.

> >

> > From what you said i guess you are one of these open world players. That even the tiniest thing of challenge is too much. Because you play open world and there is literally no challenge because of all the qq of ppl like you, about open world pve or story being too hard.

> >

> > Sure i understand that ele has more dmg than necro. But a difference of 20k on big target seems way too over the top. In burst ele can even do double the necro dps.

> >

> > Sorry. But its really bad design, to have a charakter only for niches. And thats, what necro is right now.

> >

> > The boss spawns some adds? Well lets take a necro for epidemic, so eles can keep hitting the boss.

> > Boss does one big attack once in a while? Lets take necro, that uses his heal, so eles kan keep hitting the boss, and doesnt have to care for dodges.

> >

> > And thats, what necro mancer currently is.

> >

> > A pretty bad version of bannerslave that you dont need at all encounters. Or better to say, that you dont need at any encounter cause there are way better options to take.

> >

> > And i think. Every charakter should have the right to go raiding.

> >

> >

>

> The only difference between you and me is that you think that somehow (I suspect from drinking the meta kool aid) you have convinced yourself necro is currently 'wrong'. I've come to realize there isn't any right or wrong, because I can see how the game is designed and the game philosophy that Anet has used, is using and continues to use.

 

So your philosophy is that the status of class balance is 100% intended and under control by Anet? So then tell me why does Anet put in so much effort to address the very concerns that you constantly decry.

 

 

[Shadowcat.2680]

Scourge defined the meta in WvW at the launch of PoF. Necromancer has never been Anet's redheaded stepchild in WvW as condi reaper was the easymode and op spec during HoT (and didn't get nerfed until PoF as if Anet wanted to use scourge to sell copies of PoF with its aoe condi and boon corrupt spam).

 

The only valid argument is for splits for PvE as scourge has always been dominant in WvW and PvP to the point that it prevented most melee from being playable in those modes.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> The problem HERE is that you choose the meta path, so no, you don't get to raid with your necro because it's not widely accepted as meta.

 

But doesn't it then make perfect sense to change this on the side where it can only be changed (ANet's side), or do you find it fair that the User Experience of people that main Necro is significantly worse than (atm) that of any other class in a VERY (if not the most) important part of the game: the PvE endgame.

In the end, every commercial company should think of it's customers (and imo it should even be their highest priority), and if pretty much everyone agrees that the above is the case (even if they don't main Necro), hence creating a META with the absence of the Necro, there's something wrong. Especially if the consensus is THAT clear!

 

And imo you can agree/disagree all you want about the _actual_ balance of the game (I think it's FAR off, you might think it's next to perfect), the consensus of it's customers is a very skewed one towards the Necro, and that just isn't fair! .... And I know, life isn't fair, but this is a game, class discrimination _can_ actually be fixed here!

 

One big disclaimer though, for me (at least) it would be a lot more easier to give the whole class balancing issue a rest if it would've been much easier to switch classes (time and investment wise) and hold the optimal conditions (that I've 'unlocked' on my main). Say, via some kind of template and account unlock system .... maybe?!!!! Must be a new suggestion though ;)

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"Irokou.3215" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > If you are convinced Anet is following a meta mentality, please tell us why after 5 years we have:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. a large range in damage performance over classes (and healing for that matter)

> > > > > > 2. balance patches that consistently have changes that defy the direction a meta-balancing direction would take

> > > > > > 3. no reference from Anet about performance between classes

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There is NOTHING in this game that indicates Anet as adopted a meta mentality that goes against their own play how you want mentality. if you see a meta mentality, it's because you don't know what it means in the first place and justifies your complaint.

> > > > >

> > > > > The answer to each of those is that Anet is incompetent with regards to balancing their game.

> > > >

> > > > Could be ... or it could be they don't need to balance the class performance because there is no holy trinity and it's not necessary. Game history shows you don't need performance balance to complete content ... so what's Anet's motivation to provide it? There isn't any. It's a nice to have, not a necessity. **Either way** ... we don't have it after 5 years, why are people so convinced it's just around the corner? That it's something Anet strive to provide? Those people are unrealistic. They don't observe how the game has evolved. The don't know how to make the connection between Anet's game philosophy and what that means for the practical implementation.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sure. **But every class** has more dmg now. Look at warrior. Pre pof when zerker ps warrior was a thing, you were like "uh look at dis, i did 60k dmg with gs 2"

> > > > > Now its like "uh look at dis, i did 120k dmg with axe 5 (or 4?)" Im not that into warrior, cause its lame to play.

> > > > >

> > > > > And for necro: it doesnt have more dmg than pre pof.

> > > > > Before you could pull like 32-34k dps as condi reaper.

> > > > > Now its back down to 29k. Exactly the same like condi-scourge

> > > >

> > > > OH, there you go with irrelevant meta mentality again; comparing to EVERY other class. I'm not being obtuse here. Nothing about this game indicates that Anet is on some grand plan to ensure classes to have equivalent performance, nothing. I can't honestly see where people get ANY indication Anet cares about the performance between classes, aside from just _hoping_ it's true.

> > > >

> > > > > @"cobracommander.5861" said:

> > > > > Everyone here has let this thread get hijacked by an open world pve RP MM. scourge is subpar is raids and nobody would ever take a power reaper. I pull 27.5 dps on power reaper and that would get me laughed out of town. Whether people like it or not, if we want to play high end content on the classes we want to play, it has to have viable builds that make it worth it. Otherwise you’re just RP. Less QQ, more pew pew on getting some dps boosts.

> > > >

> > > > Just no ... if you want to play high end content on the classes and builds you want to play, you need to play with people that think JUST LIKE YOU.

> > >

> > > No thats not right. We are not playing any build we want to play. We play the meta build yes. Know why? Cause it deals most dmg, and still is like 1-5k behind every other class.

> > >

> > > But i guess u arent a raider, else you would understand.

> > >

> > > And sure im not always playing meta. Having that barrier heal in raids, sometimes saves ppls kitten. But still. We only do littly changes and there we know, we loose some dmg.

> > >

> > > From what you said i guess you are one of these open world players. That even the tiniest thing of challenge is too much. Because you play open world and there is literally no challenge because of all the qq of ppl like you, about open world pve or story being too hard.

> > >

> > > Sure i understand that ele has more dmg than necro. But a difference of 20k on big target seems way too over the top. In burst ele can even do double the necro dps.

> > >

> > > Sorry. But its really bad design, to have a charakter only for niches. And thats, what necro is right now.

> > >

> > > The boss spawns some adds? Well lets take a necro for epidemic, so eles can keep hitting the boss.

> > > Boss does one big attack once in a while? Lets take necro, that uses his heal, so eles kan keep hitting the boss, and doesnt have to care for dodges.

> > >

> > > And thats, what necro mancer currently is.

> > >

> > > A pretty bad version of bannerslave that you dont need at all encounters. Or better to say, that you dont need at any encounter cause there are way better options to take.

> > >

> > > And i think. Every charakter should have the right to go raiding.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The only difference between you and me is that you think that somehow (I suspect from drinking the meta kool aid) you have convinced yourself necro is currently 'wrong'. I've come to realize there isn't any right or wrong, because I can see how the game is designed and the game philosophy that Anet has used, is using and continues to use.

> >

> > I will disagree you can't raid with a Necro ... that's just a function of who you decide to raid with. The problem HERE is that you choose the meta path, so no, you don't get to raid with your necro because it's not widely accepted as meta. You have artificially dismissed it as a valid raiding class to begin with because of what you have accepted necro SHOULD be; hardly a relevant assessment. Your perspective makes little sense in a game where people ARE doing raids playing their necros. They must look at you and think "What planet is he from?" "Oh, that weird one where people follow rules that aren't needed".

> >

> > You got two choices man ... play with the people that think the way you do .... or have someone tell you how to play so you can play with the people telling you how to play. Player-made problems require player-made solutions. If you buy into and prop up the player-determined meta mentality (as the wording of your posts suggest you are), letting it guide your play, you can't complain when that same concept tells you your class sucks, then point the finger at the people trying to enforce the OPPOSITE ideas in the game. That's nonsense.

>

> Well. In my group we often run necro just because add-clear. Even at gorse.

>

> But for pugs. Which is a big part of the game as well.... well they wont take that necro player

>

> And yes. For me gw2 is only about raiding or wvw zerging.

> Other stuff isnt challenging enough

 

OK ... that just goes to what I'm talking about ... you choose who you play with. If you choose PUGS, they want a specific kind of person ... I guess I will just say it again; you can't complain that you are trying to join pugs that play how they want ... just because you want to play how you want. You need to join groups that accept you and how you want to play.

 

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > The problem HERE is that you choose the meta path, so no, you don't get to raid with your necro because it's not widely accepted as meta.

>

> But doesn't it then make perfect sense to change this on the side where it can only be changed (ANet's side), or do you find it fair that the User Experience of people that main Necro is significantly worse than (atm) that of any other class in a VERY (if not the most) important part of the game: the PvE endgame.

 

So you want Anet to change players attitudes about using optimized compositions ... in a game that is designed so that they aren't needed ... So tell me again what needs to change here? The game already EXISTS in a way where players don't need to burden themselves with meta-think like this. What more could you ask for?

 

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"Irokou.3215" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > If you are convinced Anet is following a meta mentality, please tell us why after 5 years we have:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. a large range in damage performance over classes (and healing for that matter)

> > > > > > 2. balance patches that consistently have changes that defy the direction a meta-balancing direction would take

> > > > > > 3. no reference from Anet about performance between classes

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There is NOTHING in this game that indicates Anet as adopted a meta mentality that goes against their own play how you want mentality. if you see a meta mentality, it's because you don't know what it means in the first place and justifies your complaint.

> > > > >

> > > > > The answer to each of those is that Anet is incompetent with regards to balancing their game.

> > > >

> > > > Could be ... or it could be they don't need to balance the class performance because there is no holy trinity and it's not necessary. Game history shows you don't need performance balance to complete content ... so what's Anet's motivation to provide it? There isn't any. It's a nice to have, not a necessity. **Either way** ... we don't have it after 5 years, why are people so convinced it's just around the corner? That it's something Anet strive to provide? Those people are unrealistic. They don't observe how the game has evolved. The don't know how to make the connection between Anet's game philosophy and what that means for the practical implementation.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sure. **But every class** has more dmg now. Look at warrior. Pre pof when zerker ps warrior was a thing, you were like "uh look at dis, i did 60k dmg with gs 2"

> > > > > Now its like "uh look at dis, i did 120k dmg with axe 5 (or 4?)" Im not that into warrior, cause its lame to play.

> > > > >

> > > > > And for necro: it doesnt have more dmg than pre pof.

> > > > > Before you could pull like 32-34k dps as condi reaper.

> > > > > Now its back down to 29k. Exactly the same like condi-scourge

> > > >

> > > > OH, there you go with irrelevant meta mentality again; comparing to EVERY other class. I'm not being obtuse here. Nothing about this game indicates that Anet is on some grand plan to ensure classes to have equivalent performance, nothing. I can't honestly see where people get ANY indication Anet cares about the performance between classes, aside from just _hoping_ it's true.

> > > >

> > > > > @"cobracommander.5861" said:

> > > > > Everyone here has let this thread get hijacked by an open world pve RP MM. scourge is subpar is raids and nobody would ever take a power reaper. I pull 27.5 dps on power reaper and that would get me laughed out of town. Whether people like it or not, if we want to play high end content on the classes we want to play, it has to have viable builds that make it worth it. Otherwise you’re just RP. Less QQ, more pew pew on getting some dps boosts.

> > > >

> > > > Just no ... if you want to play high end content on the classes and builds you want to play, you need to play with people that think JUST LIKE YOU.

> > >

> > > No thats not right. We are not playing any build we want to play. We play the meta build yes. Know why? Cause it deals most dmg, and still is like 1-5k behind every other class.

> > >

> > > But i guess u arent a raider, else you would understand.

> > >

> > > And sure im not always playing meta. Having that barrier heal in raids, sometimes saves ppls kitten. But still. We only do littly changes and there we know, we loose some dmg.

> > >

> > > From what you said i guess you are one of these open world players. That even the tiniest thing of challenge is too much. Because you play open world and there is literally no challenge because of all the qq of ppl like you, about open world pve or story being too hard.

> > >

> > > Sure i understand that ele has more dmg than necro. But a difference of 20k on big target seems way too over the top. In burst ele can even do double the necro dps.

> > >

> > > Sorry. But its really bad design, to have a charakter only for niches. And thats, what necro is right now.

> > >

> > > The boss spawns some adds? Well lets take a necro for epidemic, so eles can keep hitting the boss.

> > > Boss does one big attack once in a while? Lets take necro, that uses his heal, so eles kan keep hitting the boss, and doesnt have to care for dodges.

> > >

> > > And thats, what necro mancer currently is.

> > >

> > > A pretty bad version of bannerslave that you dont need at all encounters. Or better to say, that you dont need at any encounter cause there are way better options to take.

> > >

> > > And i think. Every charakter should have the right to go raiding.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The only difference between you and me is that you think that somehow (I suspect from drinking the meta kool aid) you have convinced yourself necro is currently 'wrong'. I've come to realize there isn't any right or wrong, because I can see how the game is designed and the game philosophy that Anet has used, is using and continues to use.

>

> So your philosophy is that the status of class balance is 100% intended and under control by Anet? So then tell me why does Anet put in so much effort to address the very concerns that you constantly decry.

>

>

I'm not sure I said that so ... but if you want to follow that logic, I'm game. What concerns are you talking about that I constantly decry? You want to challenge my thinking on how balancing works, I'm going to need specifics.

[Axl.8924]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Irokou.3215" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > If you are convinced Anet is following a meta mentality, please tell us why after 5 years we have:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. a large range in damage performance over classes (and healing for that matter)

> > > > > 2. balance patches that consistently have changes that defy the direction a meta-balancing direction would take

> > > > > 3. no reference from Anet about performance between classes

> > > > >

> > > > > There is NOTHING in this game that indicates Anet as adopted a meta mentality that goes against their own play how you want mentality. if you see a meta mentality, it's because you don't know what it means in the first place and justifies your complaint.

> > > >

> > > > The answer to each of those is that Anet is incompetent with regards to balancing their game.

> > >

> > > Could be ... or it could be they don't need to balance the class performance because there is no holy trinity and it's not necessary. Game history shows you don't need performance balance to complete content ... so what's Anet's motivation to provide it? There isn't any. It's a nice to have, not a necessity. **Either way** ... we don't have it after 5 years, why are people so convinced it's just around the corner? That it's something Anet strive to provide? Those people are unrealistic. They don't observe how the game has evolved. The don't know how to make the connection between Anet's game philosophy and what that means for the practical implementation.

> > >

> > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need.

> > > >

> > > > Sure. **But every class** has more dmg now. Look at warrior. Pre pof when zerker ps warrior was a thing, you were like "uh look at dis, i did 60k dmg with gs 2"

> > > > Now its like "uh look at dis, i did 120k dmg with axe 5 (or 4?)" Im not that into warrior, cause its lame to play.

> > > >

> > > > And for necro: it doesnt have more dmg than pre pof.

> > > > Before you could pull like 32-34k dps as condi reaper.

> > > > Now its back down to 29k. Exactly the same like condi-scourge

> > >

> > > OH, there you go with irrelevant meta mentality again; comparing to EVERY other class. I'm not being obtuse here. Nothing about this game indicates that Anet is on some grand plan to ensure classes to have equivalent performance, nothing. I can't honestly see where people get ANY indication Anet cares about the performance between classes, aside from just _hoping_ it's true.

> > >

> > > > @"cobracommander.5861" said:

> > > > Everyone here has let this thread get hijacked by an open world pve RP MM. scourge is subpar is raids and nobody would ever take a power reaper. I pull 27.5 dps on power reaper and that would get me laughed out of town. Whether people like it or not, if we want to play high end content on the classes we want to play, it has to have viable builds that make it worth it. Otherwise you’re just RP. Less QQ, more pew pew on getting some dps boosts.

> > >

> > > Just no ... if you want to play high end content on the classes and builds you want to play, you need to play with people that think JUST LIKE YOU.

> >

> > No thats not right. We are not playing any build we want to play. We play the meta build yes. Know why? Cause it deals most dmg, and still is like 1-5k behind every other class.

> >

> > But i guess u arent a raider, else you would understand.

> >

> > And sure im not always playing meta. Having that barrier heal in raids, sometimes saves ppls kitten. But still. We only do littly changes and there we know, we loose some dmg.

> >

> > From what you said i guess you are one of these open world players. That even the tiniest thing of challenge is too much. Because you play open world and there is literally no challenge because of all the qq of ppl like you, about open world pve or story being too hard.

> >

> > Sure i understand that ele has more dmg than necro. But a difference of 20k on big target seems way too over the top. In burst ele can even do double the necro dps.

> >

> > Sorry. But its really bad design, to have a charakter only for niches. And thats, what necro is right now.

> >

> > The boss spawns some adds? Well lets take a necro for epidemic, so eles can keep hitting the boss.

> > Boss does one big attack once in a while? Lets take necro, that uses his heal, so eles kan keep hitting the boss, and doesnt have to care for dodges.

> >

> > And thats, what necro mancer currently is.

> >

> > A pretty bad version of bannerslave that you dont need at all encounters. Or better to say, that you dont need at any encounter cause there are way better options to take.

> >

> > And i think. Every charakter should have the right to go raiding.

> >

> >

>

> The only difference between you and me is that you think that somehow (I suspect from drinking the meta kool aid) you have convinced yourself necro is currently 'wrong'. I've come to realize there isn't any right or wrong, because I can see how the game is designed and the game philosophy that Anet has used, is using and continues to use.

>

> I will disagree you can't raid with a Necro ... that's just a function of who you decide to raid with. The problem HERE is that you choose the meta path, so no, you don't get to raid with your necro because it's not widely accepted as meta. You have artificially dismissed it as a valid raiding class to begin with because of what you have accepted necro SHOULD be; hardly a relevant assessment. Your perspective makes little sense in a game where people ARE doing raids playing their necros. They must look at you and think "What planet is he from?" "Oh, that weird one where people follow rules that aren't needed".

>

> You got two choices man ... play with the people that think the way you do .... or have someone tell you how to play so you can play with the people telling you how to play. Player-made problems require player-made solutions. If you buy into and prop up the player-determined meta mentality (as the wording of your posts suggest you are), letting it guide your play, you can't complain when that same concept tells you your class sucks, then point the finger at the people trying to enforce the OPPOSITE ideas in the game. That's nonsense.

 

There is a issue with what you say obtenna:

 

Just because you can do the boss, though your dps is lower, doesn't mean people won't take you.Also:Whats to stop people from saying:No necros? the game flat out encourage you to take other classes over necros, because better support better damage better healing, so why take necro right?

 

If you got a choice between using a old computer that works but does so slowly at work, or a new one that does more and faster, which one would you take? if both were free that is? The better one usually of course, because whats to stop you from it?

 

Others can do the job better, and there is nothing to stop them, unless they make every class have a niche as well that they are not so good at, that some other fills that in, or give necros a role already and buff them to be competitive in dps.

 

 

[cobracommander.5861]

Anyone who wants to role play on a subpar class in a raid is free to do so, and I will not begrudge a raid composed of like minded players who want to play the game how they want. But most high end players in mmos will not accept anything less than what is best or contributes the most for the raid, or any game mode. This thread is for those like minded individuals.

[Obtena.7952]

Y> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"Irokou.3215" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > If you are convinced Anet is following a meta mentality, please tell us why after 5 years we have:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. a large range in damage performance over classes (and healing for that matter)

> > > > > > 2. balance patches that consistently have changes that defy the direction a meta-balancing direction would take

> > > > > > 3. no reference from Anet about performance between classes

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There is NOTHING in this game that indicates Anet as adopted a meta mentality that goes against their own play how you want mentality. if you see a meta mentality, it's because you don't know what it means in the first place and justifies your complaint.

> > > > >

> > > > > The answer to each of those is that Anet is incompetent with regards to balancing their game.

> > > >

> > > > Could be ... or it could be they don't need to balance the class performance because there is no holy trinity and it's not necessary. Game history shows you don't need performance balance to complete content ... so what's Anet's motivation to provide it? There isn't any. It's a nice to have, not a necessity. **Either way** ... we don't have it after 5 years, why are people so convinced it's just around the corner? That it's something Anet strive to provide? Those people are unrealistic. They don't observe how the game has evolved. The don't know how to make the connection between Anet's game philosophy and what that means for the practical implementation.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sure. **But every class** has more dmg now. Look at warrior. Pre pof when zerker ps warrior was a thing, you were like "uh look at dis, i did 60k dmg with gs 2"

> > > > > Now its like "uh look at dis, i did 120k dmg with axe 5 (or 4?)" Im not that into warrior, cause its lame to play.

> > > > >

> > > > > And for necro: it doesnt have more dmg than pre pof.

> > > > > Before you could pull like 32-34k dps as condi reaper.

> > > > > Now its back down to 29k. Exactly the same like condi-scourge

> > > >

> > > > OH, there you go with irrelevant meta mentality again; comparing to EVERY other class. I'm not being obtuse here. Nothing about this game indicates that Anet is on some grand plan to ensure classes to have equivalent performance, nothing. I can't honestly see where people get ANY indication Anet cares about the performance between classes, aside from just _hoping_ it's true.

> > > >

> > > > > @"cobracommander.5861" said:

> > > > > Everyone here has let this thread get hijacked by an open world pve RP MM. scourge is subpar is raids and nobody would ever take a power reaper. I pull 27.5 dps on power reaper and that would get me laughed out of town. Whether people like it or not, if we want to play high end content on the classes we want to play, it has to have viable builds that make it worth it. Otherwise you’re just RP. Less QQ, more pew pew on getting some dps boosts.

> > > >

> > > > Just no ... if you want to play high end content on the classes and builds you want to play, you need to play with people that think JUST LIKE YOU.

> > >

> > > No thats not right. We are not playing any build we want to play. We play the meta build yes. Know why? Cause it deals most dmg, and still is like 1-5k behind every other class.

> > >

> > > But i guess u arent a raider, else you would understand.

> > >

> > > And sure im not always playing meta. Having that barrier heal in raids, sometimes saves ppls kitten. But still. We only do littly changes and there we know, we loose some dmg.

> > >

> > > From what you said i guess you are one of these open world players. That even the tiniest thing of challenge is too much. Because you play open world and there is literally no challenge because of all the qq of ppl like you, about open world pve or story being too hard.

> > >

> > > Sure i understand that ele has more dmg than necro. But a difference of 20k on big target seems way too over the top. In burst ele can even do double the necro dps.

> > >

> > > Sorry. But its really bad design, to have a charakter only for niches. And thats, what necro is right now.

> > >

> > > The boss spawns some adds? Well lets take a necro for epidemic, so eles can keep hitting the boss.

> > > Boss does one big attack once in a while? Lets take necro, that uses his heal, so eles kan keep hitting the boss, and doesnt have to care for dodges.

> > >

> > > And thats, what necro mancer currently is.

> > >

> > > A pretty bad version of bannerslave that you dont need at all encounters. Or better to say, that you dont need at any encounter cause there are way better options to take.

> > >

> > > And i think. Every charakter should have the right to go raiding.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The only difference between you and me is that you think that somehow (I suspect from drinking the meta kool aid) you have convinced yourself necro is currently 'wrong'. I've come to realize there isn't any right or wrong, because I can see how the game is designed and the game philosophy that Anet has used, is using and continues to use.

> >

> > I will disagree you can't raid with a Necro ... that's just a function of who you decide to raid with. The problem HERE is that you choose the meta path, so no, you don't get to raid with your necro because it's not widely accepted as meta. You have artificially dismissed it as a valid raiding class to begin with because of what you have accepted necro SHOULD be; hardly a relevant assessment. Your perspective makes little sense in a game where people ARE doing raids playing their necros. They must look at you and think "What planet is he from?" "Oh, that weird one where people follow rules that aren't needed".

> >

> > You got two choices man ... play with the people that think the way you do .... or have someone tell you how to play so you can play with the people telling you how to play. Player-made problems require player-made solutions. If you buy into and prop up the player-determined meta mentality (as the wording of your posts suggest you are), letting it guide your play, you can't complain when that same concept tells you your class sucks, then point the finger at the people trying to enforce the OPPOSITE ideas in the game. That's nonsense.

>

> There is a issue with what you say obtenna:

>

> Just because you can do the boss, though your dps is lower, doesn't mean people won't take you.Also:Whats to stop people from saying:No necros? the game flat out encourage you to take other classes over necros, because better support better damage better healing, so why take necro right?

>

> If you got a choice between using a old computer that works but does so slowly at work, or a new one that does more and faster, which one would you take? if both were free that is? The better one usually of course, because whats to stop you from it?

>

> Others can do the job better, and there is nothing to stop them, unless they make every class have a niche as well that they are not so good at, that some other fills that in, or give necros a role already and buff them to be competitive in dps.

>

>

 

I won't argue the semantics of analogies ... we don't need them to talk about what is happening here. People choose classes for reasons and MANY of them aren't related to performance. If your concern is performance AND you want to play with PUG's, you choose a class that performance-oriented PUGS will take. Your post is just another approach to meta thinking ... "Someone does better, so why choose less than best classes?" ... well, it's simple ... because people can and people want to. The game is built for it.

 

> @"cobracommander.5861" said:

> Anyone who wants to role play on a subpar class in a raid is free to do so, and I will not begrudge a raid composed of like minded players who want to play the game how they want. But most high end players in mmos will not accept anything less than what is best or contributes the most for the raid, or any game mode. This thread is for those like minded individuals.

 

If you want to play the best, then the theme of your class is not of concern ... choices.