Improvisation Needs to Be Tuned Up A Bit

[Elxdark.9702]

oh well it's trash, alright lets play condi thief then I think that's what anet wants

[rbbthole.9074]

Lmao, Anet never disappoint. They always have to nerf thieves in some ways.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

There is ZERO reason to take Improvisation. If you're building condition, take Potent. If you're building power, take Exec.

 

Why in the world would I take Improv?

What would be the reason to take it after this change?

 

Theses are the questions that the Devs needs to ask themselves.

 

In my opinion, Even the Odds and Improvisation should swap ability effects.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> There is ZERO reason to take Improvisation. If you're building condition, take Potent. If you're building power, take Exec.

>

> Why in the world would I take Improv?

> What would be the reason to take it after this change?

>

> Theses are the questions that the Devs needs to ask themselves.

>

> In my opinion, Even the Odds and Improvisation should swap ability effects.

 

I see even less reason to pick Even the Odds over Executioner or Potent Poison. Improvisation at least has some utility. Even the Odds is just a worse damage-boosting skill than those 2.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > There is ZERO reason to take Improvisation. If you're building condition, take Potent. If you're building power, take Exec.

> >

> > Why in the world would I take Improv?

> > What would be the reason to take it after this change?

> >

> > Theses are the questions that the Devs needs to ask themselves.

> >

> > In my opinion, Even the Odds and Improvisation should swap ability effects.

>

> I see even less reason to pick Even the Odds over Executioner or Potent Poison. Improvisation at least has some utility. Even the Odds is just a worse damage-boosting skill than those 2.

 

Ah, but you're not thinking hybrid build. Since you cannot take both Potent and Exec, Even is the best choice. I slight buff might be needed to justify it being a GM. In contrast, the propose change to Improv makes it a Master trait instead of GM.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > There is ZERO reason to take Improvisation. If you're building condition, take Potent. If you're building power, take Exec.

> > >

> > > Why in the world would I take Improv?

> > > What would be the reason to take it after this change?

> > >

> > > Theses are the questions that the Devs needs to ask themselves.

> > >

> > > In my opinion, Even the Odds and Improvisation should swap ability effects.

> >

> > I see even less reason to pick Even the Odds over Executioner or Potent Poison. Improvisation at least has some utility. Even the Odds is just a worse damage-boosting skill than those 2.

>

> Ah, but you're not thinking hybrid build. Since you cannot take both Potent and Exec, Even is the best choice. I slight buff might be needed to justify it being a GM. In contrast, the propose change to Improv makes it a Master trait instead of GM.

 

I cant think of any hybrid thief build thats even possible without just being inferior to a pure one. There is also the issue that Even the Odds requires stealth attacks, which narrows it down even further. I dont think any numbers buff is gonna save the trait. Frankly Id rather have Even the Odds reworked to something else entirely. Something more useful. And Improv in master might be a bit too good still.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > There is ZERO reason to take Improvisation. If you're building condition, take Potent. If you're building power, take Exec.

> > > >

> > > > Why in the world would I take Improv?

> > > > What would be the reason to take it after this change?

> > > >

> > > > Theses are the questions that the Devs needs to ask themselves.

> > > >

> > > > In my opinion, Even the Odds and Improvisation should swap ability effects.

> > >

> > > I see even less reason to pick Even the Odds over Executioner or Potent Poison. Improvisation at least has some utility. Even the Odds is just a worse damage-boosting skill than those 2.

> >

> > Ah, but you're not thinking hybrid build. Since you cannot take both Potent and Exec, Even is the best choice. I slight buff might be needed to justify it being a GM. In contrast, the propose change to Improv makes it a Master trait instead of GM.

>

> I cant think of any hybrid thief build thats even possible without just being inferior to a pure one. There is also the issue that Even the Odds requires stealth attacks, which narrows it down even further. I dont think any numbers buff is gonna save the trait. Frankly Id rather have Even the Odds reworked to something else entirely. Something more useful. And Improv in master might be a bit too good still.

 

Well, I'll just have to disagree with that. 8-10 stacks of each might and vul might be enough to justify it to be in GM. Improv is no longer GM worthy after that change. If it's too good, then nerf it even more -- I don't really care. Improv used to grant 10% damage if you have not used the stolen item, that's why it's worthy of being a GM. At its current iteration, it's useless. After the change, it's trash.

[Joshewwah.2956]

Maybe it would've been useful if it recharged one random utility **on cd**, not a random utility. You could use a skill, then steal and then have that skill back, consistently

[Bovan.9481]

> @"Joshewwah.2956" said:

> Maybe it would've been useful if it recharged one random utility **on cd**, not a random utility. You could use a skill, then steal and then have that skill back, consistently

 

This would honestly be an amazing change and I was under the impression it would work like this. Very disappointed with it's current version.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> There is also the issue that Even the Odds requires stealth attacks, which narrows it down even further.

 

Why are the traits "Even the Odds" and "Revealed Training" not in the Shadow Arts line? Or at least in Critical Strikes?

 

"Leeching Venoms" is much more suited to Deadly Arts. And "Shadow Savior" seems to be more of a Trickery trait... or possible Acrobatics.

 

Of course, "Executioner" is also fitting to Critical Strikes.

 

Alas, Anet has made a mess of things thematically.

[babazhook.6805]

As far as IMPROV goes, not to be overlooked is the other facet of the skill , that being the items stolen. With changes to SWIPE in a DD build you can get repeated steals in short order in an s/x build. Against a mesmer this should translate to those boons being close to full time barring corruption or removal. That in and of itself is very good.

 

Obviously not everyone is a mesmer so the effectiveness of a steal drops after mesmer.

 

We can conclude that in pure power builds, Potent poison is out and in pure condition builds executioner is out so in what scenario would one choose IMPROV over one of the others?

 

I do not think it a trash skill per se and in fact there might be scenarios where I would prefer it. Whether this makes it worth taking over the other two remains to be seen. A swipe at around 12 seconds versus mesmer with a chance one of those 3 utilities resets every 12 seconds is not all bad. If I can get a haste or an RFI or shadowstep reset a few times in a given fight it just might be enough to ensure I win the fight.

 

As such I am not passing judgment until I try it out in builds optimized for the use of something like Improv. (as in DD or DE are better than core and s/x better then other weapon sets)

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > There is also the issue that Even the Odds requires stealth attacks, which narrows it down even further.

>

> Why are the traits "Even the Odds" and "Revealed Training" not in the Shadow Arts line? Or at least in Critical Strikes?

>

> "Leeching Venoms" is much more suited to Deadly Arts. And "Shadow Savior" seems to be more of a Trickery trait... or possible Acrobatics.

>

> Of course, "Executioner" is also fitting to Critical Strikes.

>

> Alas, Anet has made a mess of things thematically.

 

Tbh Revealed Training makes perfect sense in deadly arts, as does Executioner. Critical Strikes is specifically about crits, not raw damage. As for Even the Odds, guess the idea behind SA is to be a defensive traitline. Which of course is pretty bad since thief cant afford to lose damage or utility for survivability, and now it doesnt even give you good survivability, but eh.

[Talonblaze.3175]

Quite the terrible nerf to this trait.

 

Not only does it still have the downside that you can still get zero benefit from it if RNG is against you.

On a 20 second cooldown.

You get the possibility of only recharging 1 skill instead of potentially multiple.

Along with the fact that Heal and Elite are now excluded from this list.

 

There really isn't ANY benefit from this current iteration that isn't straight up worse than before.

At least if you balanced your skill categories around in the prior version you often got more benefit than negative.

 

Now? Practically garbage. Not what I call a Grandmaster.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

That's anet for u. Destroy a well used trait, leave dagger and pistols underperforming, leave condi DD op. They revamp healing in SA to be useless while leaving dated mechanics. If they're not gonna listen to thief players and make preparedness baseline than update skill ini cost already. Example being d5 costing 5 ini, wtf is that? That's one point from half a thief's total attack pool lol that cost seems a little high for what the skill is which is also barely used.

Anet u may keep some of ur playerbase if u attempt to make the classes enjoyable for ur players.

[Kallist.5917]

I honestly cant believe some of you people are actually complaining about this. Its always hand an internal cooldown of 20 seconds, and now it promises to recharge one utility instead of some RNG garbage. The only really major difference here is that you have to plan for your steal instead of using it as a free teleport so you can facerollyour way though everything. Sure, if your a Deadeye, that means your going to want to pop a Utility as an opening move instead of marking, but that can still very easily be worked around.

And as for Daredevil, and Base? Instant recharge on one Utillity is awesome. Haste is now an opener, and can be used back to back to extend quickness's duration. A Venom can be re-applied almost right away. Popping Assassins Signet, then stealing gives you both the boosts at the same time. I can go on. my point is that the skill isnt RNG based now. Entire strategies and rotations can now be built around it, and I honestly cant wait to see how broken this skill really is.

I know that, as an Asuran, having access to double my Racial skills has been pretty fun. And once they patch it to fix its interaction with flip skills and ammo skills, It'll be even better.

[Talonblaze.3175]

> @"Kallist.5917" said:

> I honestly cant believe some of you people are actually complaining about this. Its always hand an internal cooldown of 20 seconds, and now it promises to recharge one utility instead of some RNG garbage.

 

"You can use stolen skills twice. Recharge one random equipped utility skill when you steal. ***Goes on cooldown regardless of if a utility skill is recharged.***"

 

Emphasis mine. Unless it specifically doesn't do what the tooltip says, it picks one utility at random; if its recharged, you're SOL.

 

[foste.3098]

> @"Talonblaze.3175" said:

> > @"Kallist.5917" said:

> > I honestly cant believe some of you people are actually complaining about this. Its always hand an internal cooldown of 20 seconds, and now it promises to recharge one utility instead of some RNG garbage.

>

> "You can use stolen skills twice. Recharge one random equipped utility skill when you steal. ***Goes on cooldown regardless of if a utility skill is recharged.***"

>

> Emphasis mine. Unless it specifically doesn't do what the tooltip says, it picks one utility at random; if its recharged, you're SOL.

>

 

The difference now is that you can control the percentage chance of a utility recharge; if you have 1 utility on cd you have 33% chance at a recharge, if 2 then 66% and 3 gives you a 100%. Before this change you had ~16.50% chance to recharge a skill type if you were elite specialized, and ~20% if you were core.

[Talonblaze.3175]

> @"foste.3098" said:

> The difference now is that you can control the percentage chance of a utility recharge; if you have 1 utility on cd you have 33% chance at a recharge, if 2 then 66% and 3 gives you a 100%. Before this change you had ~16.50% chance to recharge a skill type if you were elite specialized, and ~20% if you were core.

 

I won't deny that the % of getting a recharge skill is better for utility. But personally I don't think the tradeoff of losing out on the chance for multiple recharges, heal and elite being removed from the equation for **slightly** better RNG is worth the tradeoff.

Especially when you could slot 5 out of the 6 skill types for diversity and have a pretty decent chance of something recharging even so.

 

 

[Kallist.5917]

> @"foste.3098" said:

> > @"Talonblaze.3175" said:

> > > @"Kallist.5917" said:

> > > I honestly cant believe some of you people are actually complaining about this. Its always hand an internal cooldown of 20 seconds, and now it promises to recharge one utility instead of some RNG garbage.

> >

> > "You can use stolen skills twice. Recharge one random equipped utility skill when you steal. ***Goes on cooldown regardless of if a utility skill is recharged.***"

> >

> > Emphasis mine. Unless it specifically doesn't do what the tooltip says, it picks one utility at random; if its recharged, you're SOL.

> >

>

> The difference now is that you can control the percentage chance of a utility recharge; if you have 1 utility on cd you have 33% chance at a recharge, if 2 then 66% and 3 gives you a 100%. Before this change you had ~16.50% chance to recharge a skill type if you were elite specialized, and ~20% if you were core.

 

Exactly. With a bit of planning, and by not spamming your steal as an opener, you can get some pretty sweet effects from this change. I'm loving it. A promised Utility use is better than the waste of a trait it was.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Talonblaze.3175" said:

> > @"Kallist.5917" said:

> > I honestly cant believe some of you people are actually complaining about this. Its always hand an internal cooldown of 20 seconds, and now it promises to recharge one utility instead of some RNG garbage.

>

> "You can use stolen skills twice. Recharge one random equipped utility skill when you steal. ***Goes on cooldown regardless of if a utility skill is recharged.***"

>

> Emphasis mine. Unless it specifically doesn't do what the tooltip says, it picks one utility at random; if its recharged, you're SOL.

>

 

This is what it did before. If it recharged a utility you did not even have on your toolbar you were SOL. Nothing changed there except the percentage chance of a skill recharge went UP because there a smaller pool to choose from. Your chances of a reset on a skill on cooldown have all but doubled.

 

Added to that with changes to swipe , combined with swindlers in an s/x build (or for that matter DE and mercy or a on kill reset) the ability to steal comes around more often. The CHANCE you will get a reset on a skill on cooldown is higher then before. Outside the fact a heal or the elite can not be recharged this skill is better in my opinion.

[pureskullz.7536]

The change to improv was kind of a nerf but at the same time a buff. Yes before you could have had potentially ALL abilities off cooldown instantly or you could have just one recharged. However, I think this change adds a little bit of predictability to improv and evens it out a ton.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Talonblaze.3175" said:

> > @"foste.3098" said:

> > The difference now is that you can control the percentage chance of a utility recharge; if you have 1 utility on cd you have 33% chance at a recharge, if 2 then 66% and 3 gives you a 100%. Before this change you had ~16.50% chance to recharge a skill type if you were elite specialized, and ~20% if you were core.

>

> I won't deny that the % of getting a recharge skill is better for utility. But personally I don't think the tradeoff of losing out on the chance for multiple recharges, heal and elite being removed from the equation for **slightly** better RNG is worth the tradeoff.

> Especially when you could slot 5 out of the 6 skill types for diversity and have a pretty decent chance of something recharging even so.

>

>

 

The chance of having one skill reset in a 5 skill types traited out of the 6 was not decent at all. You still needed to have that skill on cooldown. If it reset Deception for your shadowstep and shadowstep was not on cooldown you lost that reset.

 

 

[Alatar.7364]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> Why in the world would I take Improv?

> What would be the reason to take it after this change?

>

> Theses are the questions that the Devs needs to ask themselves.

>

> In my opinion, Even the Odds and Improvisation should swap ability effects.

 

Double plasma, double Fear, double Mace Head Crack and double Blinding Tuft _(for Thief vs. Thief scenario)_ coupled with guaranteed Utility recharge is still good enough reason to take it in my opinion.

 

However it is true, as you suggest, that this change makes _Executioner_ more viable for Power Builds than it was, but I'd wager now it's on par with _Improvisation_ instead of being directly better.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > Why in the world would I take Improv?

> > What would be the reason to take it after this change?

> >

> > Theses are the questions that the Devs needs to ask themselves.

> >

> > In my opinion, Even the Odds and Improvisation should swap ability effects.

>

> Double plasma, double Fear, double Mace Head Crack and double Blinding Tuft _(for Thief vs. Thief scenario)_ coupled with guaranteed Utility recharge is still good enough reason to take it in my opinion.

>

> However it is true, as you suggest, that this change makes _Executioner_ more viable for Power Builds than it was, but I'd wager now it's on par with _Improvisation_ instead of being directly better.

 

I tried to make the current iteration of Improv works, but the effect is negligible. Double plasma is nice, but running DE M7 makes it unnecessary. Other stolen items are non-consequential. The random reset still doesn't make sense. We only get to activate it once every 20s due to ICD, so why even bother making it random? It was acceptable on it's initial iteration because it was very good -- 10% damage boost, plus a chance to reset ALL skills of the same category. At it's current depreciated state, the randomness makes zero sense. They should just straight up reset one of the utility skills that is on cooldown.

 

Seriously, this trait is not a GM trait at all.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> I do not think it a trash skill per se and in fact there might be scenarios where I would prefer it. Whether this makes it worth taking over the other two remains to be seen. A swipe at around 12 seconds versus mesmer with a chance one of those 3 utilities resets every 12 seconds is not all bad. If I can get a haste or an RFI or shadowstep reset a few times in a given fight it just might be enough to ensure I win the fight.

>

 

I thought the same thing, but we both forgetting something -- Improv has a 20s ICD. So even if you reduce the Steal CD to 1s, you won't get a reset. :/