What can we change to make leveling to 80 non-boring and not make new players leave?

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > If you want you can get a level about every ten minutes or so. Which means that someone here is doing something seriously wrong. If you tell your friends ten minutes a level it sounds a lot better than what you're telling them and it's more accurate as well. And you don't have to do a single heart to do it. It's all just killing.

> >

> > You're not wrong, but if you're not doing map completion and the story you're missing part of what makes the game great, the real heroes journey is exploration, experiencing all the little stories ( you taught me that regarding HoT where most of the story was told through the events and the ambient NPCs.

> >

>

> This is the problem right here. You're assuming that what makes the game great is the same for all people. There are people who don't care about the story and never will. You're not one of those people. Those people care a lot less about how long it takes to level because they're less interested in "getting to end game" and more interested in the experience. The people who come from games like WoW want to get into the dungeon/raiding scene as fast as possible. They're not here looking for an experience which you can get in a single player game. They want to get done with the "boring stuff" so they can get to the "real game"

>

> That has never been this game, but people have had years to play other MMOs and believe that the end game is the only game. I don't have to level my characters quickly because I enjoy the experience and if you're one of those people who enjoy the experience then this thread is meaningless.

>

> But this guy's friend got bored because he didn't know there was a faster way to do it and he DIDN'T like it MMOs are not one size fits all. It doesn't matter that some guys in my guild have missed the entire story. They're not immersion player they're mechanics players. There aren't enough mechanics while leveling to entertain those people. The solution, for those people, is to level as fast as they can, so they can get to a place where mechanics make some sort of difference in your game play.

>

> You, on the other hand, are more of an immersion player. It's why you've posted a lot of the stuff you've posted in the past. I'm in the same boat as you. I care about immersion in the world far more than I care about the specific mechanics of any boss fight. By recognizing that other types of players exist and exist in numbers, it's easier to understand why certain questions are asked in the first place, and why changes have been made to the game.

 

Look at the quarterly report, we don't need that kind of element changing the community, it sucks GW2 doesn't float their boat but why ruin our home to attract the kind of players we were trying to get away from in the first place?

 

I'd write more but I'm operating on 2 hours of sleep and I'm losing track of what I was trying to talk about next, maybe I can elaborate better later, I can try to not be so black and white.

[Vayne.8563]

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > If you want you can get a level about every ten minutes or so. Which means that someone here is doing something seriously wrong. If you tell your friends ten minutes a level it sounds a lot better than what you're telling them and it's more accurate as well. And you don't have to do a single heart to do it. It's all just killing.

> > >

> > > You're not wrong, but if you're not doing map completion and the story you're missing part of what makes the game great, the real heroes journey is exploration, experiencing all the little stories ( you taught me that regarding HoT where most of the story was told through the events and the ambient NPCs.

> > >

> >

> > This is the problem right here. You're assuming that what makes the game great is the same for all people. There are people who don't care about the story and never will. You're not one of those people. Those people care a lot less about how long it takes to level because they're less interested in "getting to end game" and more interested in the experience. The people who come from games like WoW want to get into the dungeon/raiding scene as fast as possible. They're not here looking for an experience which you can get in a single player game. They want to get done with the "boring stuff" so they can get to the "real game"

> >

> > That has never been this game, but people have had years to play other MMOs and believe that the end game is the only game. I don't have to level my characters quickly because I enjoy the experience and if you're one of those people who enjoy the experience then this thread is meaningless.

> >

> > But this guy's friend got bored because he didn't know there was a faster way to do it and he DIDN'T like it MMOs are not one size fits all. It doesn't matter that some guys in my guild have missed the entire story. They're not immersion player they're mechanics players. There aren't enough mechanics while leveling to entertain those people. The solution, for those people, is to level as fast as they can, so they can get to a place where mechanics make some sort of difference in your game play.

> >

> > You, on the other hand, are more of an immersion player. It's why you've posted a lot of the stuff you've posted in the past. I'm in the same boat as you. I care about immersion in the world far more than I care about the specific mechanics of any boss fight. By recognizing that other types of players exist and exist in numbers, it's easier to understand why certain questions are asked in the first place, and why changes have been made to the game.

>

> Look at the quarterly report, we don't need that kind of element changing the community, it sucks GW2 doesn't float their boat but why ruin our home to attract the kind of players we were trying to get away from in the first place?

>

> I'd write more but I'm operating on 2 hours of sleep and I'm losing track of what I was trying to talk about next, maybe I can elaborate better later, I can try to not be so black and white.

 

You don't need those types of players. Anet might. That is to say it's a business and appealing to a broader spectrum of players is smart. Some of those mechanics players have been here since launch btw. It's not just one or the other either. It's like a gas meter in your car, empty and full. I care a bit about mechanics, I just care about immersion more. Without interesting mechanics, I'm not going to enjoy some encounters as much. The game would get boring. No one group of players is probably numerous enough to support an MMO. The game needs all types of players.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

WvW is a even bigger deterrent to newer players....be happy your friends didn't start there.

 

>! As a new player in WvW...

>! 1. Don't use offensive siege since you won't have mastery until after you spent all your mastery points on gliding...and special merchant privileges...and supply mastery..okay now you can spend it on siege stuff. Oh wait that'd take 200ish mastery points. Good luck fam! Don't know what WvW mastery points are? This is WvW, ain't nobody got time for tutorial to explain silly game design jargon!

>! 2. Don't build or repair anything because you lack the mastery and it'd just take too long resulting in your death if the enemy is engaging you. Actually, don't bother picking up supply since using it takes too long and you might just end up dying building/repairing whatever is in combat.

>! 3. Don't bother roaming alone without expansions either, since specializations are outright better than core classes anyway (warrior might work sometimes...).

>! 4. Don't man defensive siege since you won't have mastery and cannons/oils get bombed if an enemy zerg is nearby resulting in your immediate death. Ta-ta.

>! 5. Don't use normal siege unless it's an alpha golem or a treb behind a gate. Treb behind a gate? Bizarre, right? Well you see... #CusGameDesign

>! 6. Don't worry about PiPs. You won't get any for a while. Track rewards are okay though I guess.

>! 7. Don't do reset night if you are susceptible to lag. You will probably die because your gear isn't good. Sucks being an uplevel in WvW. #CusGameDesign

>! 8. Leave WvW and go back to PvE in order to get the things you need to do the thing you actually wanted to do in first place...WvW (like levels? Wait, 80 in pve took too long...well it takes longer in WvW. GL).

[Granrey.8920]

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > @"Granrey.8920" said:

> > I have presented this concern numerous times.

> >

> > When a new player shows up to try the game. He can't be the only person in the starter areas....... If you are running the story without seeing a single soul between levels 1 to 80. you are likely to quit.

> >

> > Anet has made a lonely journey to reach the top. The game should be more about the journey than the destination itself.

> >

> > I usually tell people. the best time to try an MMO is on the 2nd of third month of coming out as you will see people everywhere.

> >

> > The way to solve this problem is by no addiing new maps but improving existing ones by adding more layers to it. Very similar to the maps on the first expansion in which you can take a helicopter to go above areas but better. you fly 10 meters above instead. close enough to see action below and be seen from below.

> >

> > If flying, combat flying, mounted fighting were added you can add flying mobs and new players can see other players playing above them and something to look forward to.

> >

> > The veteran players can quickly join events on the ground where the new players are. This is where GW2 can shine with the dynamic events.

> >

> > Also, you should give rewards to veteran players for joining activities with new players. This creates connection and networking between the groups.

> >

> > For instance in PWI. players have to visit dungeons every 10 levels. See these dungeons as graduation ceremonies in which they get rewards and learn to play the game by seeiing the veterans playing the game, they learn the dynamics of the instance, the skills to use, etc.

> >

> > this would increase the density on every map and make the maps more populated.

> >

> > However, people want instead new maps reducing players density on each map......and keeping no veterans on starter areas....bad logic.

> >

> >

> Layering maps like you say won't fix your perceived issue of empty starter maps... they will still not be on the same layer of the map to make new players feel included.

> One of the issues with guilds wars2 after Year 1+ was that starter zones were crammed with players running champ trains and new players not getting close to it before it died and the train moved on.. then dailies came in and made maps feel busier but still new players tended to be left cold as events came and went in a blink before they could get there.. still happens today.

>

> Fact is as an MMO gets older and less new players come into the game, starter maps do begin to suffer, but game expansions, new maps, new classes etc breath new life in to it and helps sustain/retain what it already has in terms of players, whilst also acting as a carrot.

>

> However this is not the issue that the OP was explaining, this is about new players quitting due to perceived grindyness of the 1-80 experience.. most maps after lvl 30 ish are normally quite active, maybe not all day but it has active spells.. lower levels will always see peaks and troughs as it gets older.

>

 

GW2 is meant to be played with people around you. There is no KS (kill stealing), lots of dynamics events, no need for squads, etc.

 

A player hanging around alone will not experience any of that. It will be very similar to any other MMO. So the grinding will be boring.

 

It wil be kill 10 of this and gather 20 of that. but the only way to show is not the same is when more people are around. As if there are more people when you do something, something else happens.

 

Having people flying, killing mobs about 30 or 40 feet above you makes the server looks busy.

 

It will not be except like the helicopter thing that totally takes you away from the ground and disconnect you.

 

Btw, these are just ideas based on another MMO. There might be many ways to keep new and old players playing together.

 

I personally go to older maps and I really feel sorry for whoever is new and go there as they will no experience the game in any way close to how I did it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tman.6349]

Are you sure they/you were actually friends. Seems like you put a wall up that wasn't/isn't there. Sure, maybe if you did 1 straight 80 hr gaming session, but even then you'd be reaching and disingenuous. Did you mention, if they played 4 hrs a day (sounds about right), that in those first 20 days, they'd receive 6 level ups just for being there? Also, A net changed the process where the first 15 levels take maybe 2 hours at worst. Now we're looking at 59 level ups in 78-138 hours?

[Healix.5819]

GW2 can be very grindy; it all depends on what you're expecting. If you come from other MMOs where you can simply follow the quests and receive everything you need all the way to the level cap, GW2 is going to look like an Asian grinder in comparison. It was a fairly common complaint back then, which is probably why they gated the story, to force you into other content right from the start, then the content guide was added so you could follow the arrow.

 

> @"Aryan Arlande.6184" said:

> I think, some big creatures in PVE, like Ettins, should always be able oneshotting a player, if the player doesn't pay proper attention.

 

They originally did. The difficulty was similar to HoT in the first beta. Special attacks, like the ettin's club smash, were dodge or die moments. Moa's right at the start of Queensdale for example could kill you with their flurry of pecks just as fast as a veteran smokescale.

 

> @"Thelgar.7214" said:

> Undo the changes made in the "New Player Experience" - ungut the 1-15 zones, frontload the skills and abilities again, etc. Leveling used to be enjoyable when the zones were interesting and you were using all your skills and abilities earlier.

 

You actually get your abilities much faster now (time played), assuming a normal play through. The old way was only faster if you killed hundreds of enemies. The trick is, the NPE spread out the unlocks over more levels, but made leveling from 1 to 15 roughly 10x faster. Prior to the NPE, you might get to level 5 with 1 weapon fully unlocked, whereas now you'd probably get to 15 with all of them unlocked in the same time.

 

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> Current project: Leveling a thief without equipping any armor, 50 atm.

 

If your goal is to make it more challenging, you should be in +5 level areas minimum. If you want the pre-nerf experience, you should be in +10 level areas with a condition build to counter the glancing blows.

 

 

 

 

[Aridon.8362]

I mean you can just buy an expansion and get a free lvl 80.....

[Kal Spiro.9745]

Don't know what to tell you, I usually level through map completion while playing the story. If I have a specific goal that requires level 80 I will eventually stop and just run the end of the Hilrothi Hinterlands chain until level 80, assuming I don't just autolevel, which obviously isn't an option for new players.

[Menadena.7482]

> @"MagicBoi.4160" said:

> By the way, when I mentioned 80-140 hours, I am talking about an average new player that doesn't mainly focus in leveling such as myself, of course you can get less than 80 hours but that's only if you already have a lot of prior knowledge of the game and you don't do a lot of other things that doesn't give high exp (such as exploring the map, just hanging out with someone, experimenting with builds or some stuffs, occasional trolling, etc.).

>

 

That sounds about right. My first characters did around a lever every 90 minutes and that is what other people I talked to were estimating as well. About a year later I was leveling in maybe half the time (assuming no tomes or such) because I knew things like given 2 things going on which would give the better xp (or how to get xp from both).

[Menadena.7482]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> I did all my leveling for 10+ characters before HoT. You get XP from practically everything. You don't take 80+ hours unless you have a lot of downtime doing things that don't award XP which is pretty much being AFK. Everything that I mentioned are still ways that players can level their characters with some being faster or more practical than others. Nothing has changed to leveling since the game launched other than when they adjusted the XP progression many years ago but I think that only impacted the first 20 levels causing players to level quicker.

>

 

Reading lore, browsing the wiki, roleplaying, doing gathering runs, just stopping and smelling the roses. Not everyone sees 0-80 as a race. After your first characters or so, yeah, but I feel really sorry for you if your initial leveling experience was not one of just marveling at Tyria.

[Menadena.7482]

> @"Zedek.8932" said:

> The levelling was one of ther reasons why I came here.

> Character progression in a "From Zero to Hero" fassion is something I missed in modern games.

> Apparently the target group, phone kids and tablet teenagers, are too busy with...facebook and what'sApp to actually play a game, so they should be protected from such important life lessons such as "No pain, no gain" and similar confusing things.

>

> Excelsior.

 

The initial group of friends that brought me to the game are around middle age so, yeah, we tended not to be the "how many seconds can I level in" types. Sure we want to use good builds and such but we do not sweat it if we are not running the optimum set of specs for our profession either.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Menadena.7482" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > I did all my leveling for 10+ characters before HoT. You get XP from practically everything. You don't take 80+ hours unless you have a lot of downtime doing things that don't award XP which is pretty much being AFK. Everything that I mentioned are still ways that players can level their characters with some being faster or more practical than others. Nothing has changed to leveling since the game launched other than when they adjusted the XP progression many years ago but I think that only impacted the first 20 levels causing players to level quicker.

> >

>

> Reading lore, browsing the wiki, roleplaying, doing gathering runs, just stopping and smelling the roses. Not everyone sees 0-80 as a race. After your first characters or so, yeah, but I feel really sorry for you if your initial leveling experience was not one of just marveling at Tyria.

 

Browsing wiki, roleplaying, gathering runs, and reading lore are external to the leveling process. They in no way contribute to your character leveling. This isn’t Elder Scrolls where you have lore books just laying around either.

 

It’s not about 0-80 being a race but someone grossly exaggerating how long it takes to level a character. I leveled most of my characters through world completion and I finished in much less time than what the OP is claiming. Pretty much everyone responding to the OP is saying the same as me as well.

[Neural.1824]

> @"Mea.5491" said:

> We can't do anything, some people like it, some don't. I'm sitting on 5 stacks of Tomes but I still level new characters with Hearts, events and exploring because I enjoy it. -shrugs- I love world completion so much!

>

> Edit: _"The simplest fix to the levelling problem is get rid of levels. Most people find levelling boring"_ - This is NOT true. The original Secret World had no levels and **MANY** people complained about it. They added levels in Secret World Legends because of this reason!

 

Getting rid of leveling is something that needs to be explored though. I am of the mindset that leveling either needs to mean something, or it shouldn't be there. Right now, many MMORPGs, including GW2, have gone half way and pretty much made leveling a chore, while focusing their advertising and marketing on pushing how amazing their "end game" content is. Well...sort of.. these days it's all about the cash shop, but ..yeah.

 

Leveling was a natural carry over from table top RPG's, and I'm not really sure what purpose it had other than allowing dungeon masters to create locations that their victims..er.. friends could not travel to immediately. It's not that it was a major mistake to bring leveling into the idea of an MMORPG, as familiarity was important, but I don't know that it is needed.

 

The mastery system in GW2 ventured into bridging the gap between leveling and not having levels at all. You can be "level 100" with the mastery system, but it doesn't mean a player has, for example, ley-line gliding. Sure, someone who doesn't understand the game might see someone at level 150 and think they must be soooo much better than the guy at level 125, but they have no idea which mastery lines are unlocked on the characters. For myself, and possibly others, the level is not something we pay attention to if the number is gold colored. It's an effective way to remove the need for level cap increases, though I'm not really sure we actually need the mastery level displayed other than for those who need the ego boost.

 

What is going to be needed is for a game company to step up and take the risk of breaking the mold. Arenanet had that chance, and they backed out. It didn't cause GW2 to fail, so that is fine, but if the gaming industry is going to move away from leveling, a couple companies are going to have to take the risk of taking the plunge.

[Tasida.4085]

I've played and leveled 14 toons since launch, and it has never taken very long to level. I'm not sure what the op meant by 80 hours +. It seems your friends left because they got the wrong info. I agree with an earlier post if it takes 80+ hours to level maybe find another game. There are so many aids to level fast in the game.

[Menadena.7482]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Menadena.7482" said:

> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > I did all my leveling for 10+ characters before HoT. You get XP from practically everything. You don't take 80+ hours unless you have a lot of downtime doing things that don't award XP which is pretty much being AFK. Everything that I mentioned are still ways that players can level their characters with some being faster or more practical than others. Nothing has changed to leveling since the game launched other than when they adjusted the XP progression many years ago but I think that only impacted the first 20 levels causing players to level quicker.

> > >

> >

> > Reading lore, browsing the wiki, roleplaying, doing gathering runs, just stopping and smelling the roses. Not everyone sees 0-80 as a race. After your first characters or so, yeah, but I feel really sorry for you if your initial leveling experience was not one of just marveling at Tyria.

>

> Browsing wiki, roleplaying, gathering runs, and reading lore are external to the leveling process. They in no way contribute to your character leveling. This isn’t Elder Scrolls where you have lore books just laying around either.

>

> It’s not about 0-80 being a race but someone grossly exaggerating how long it takes to level a character. I leveled most of my characters through world completion and I finished in much less time than what the OP is claiming. Pretty much everyone responding to the OP is saying the same as me as well.

 

I timed how long it took me to level. For my first characters in was about a level every 90 minutes, which was about what my friends were experiencing. As I got more used to the game and I just wanted leveling over with and a level got done in less than an hour. Now I can do a level's worth than xp in faster than that even when that is my only goal (ie, filling out a mastery).

 

So I would agree with the original 80+ estimate for the number of hours to level when you are starting out. Remember, there is a LOT to learn and do that you eventually just take for granted.

 

As to lore there is lore in-game (books, talking to NPCs, exploring) and out of game (the wikis). That is not even getting started on what might be written up on various forums and third party sites.

[sorudo.9054]

my big problem with leveling is the first 10 levels, after the tutorial there is absolutely nothing to do but grind to lvl 10.

it's also really painful to get to lvl 10, all your weapon skills are locked and only get unlocked while you're grinding.

that's the thing i have about the NPE, they not only stop players from enjoying the game in the right way it also just dumps new players in nothingness until lvl 10.

 

they should've kept the story within lvl 10 like before the NPE, keep the story there so ppl are pushed to experience new places instead of scared away. (new players don't know where the higher level areas are so they need a small push)

the skills should be unlocked like always but simply allow players to practice their skills slowly but surely, i want players to start out without holding them back yet teaching them how to use their skills.

 

for vets the NPE should not even exist, i use tomes not because i hate leveling, in fact i love leveling new characters, i use tomes because i absolutely hate the NPE.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

Change absolutely nothing, as a matter of fact they should cut the xp rate down by two thirds to make sure players do all the content, odds are if they bought an expansion then they already have an 80 anyway right?

[Lyrah.6597]

New player here. Just reached level 80 at nearly the 80 hours mark. Used a fair share of exp boosters and spent some 40-50 gold pieces on crafting materials to take two crafts to level 250. I'd love to say that slowed down my leveling but in this game I noticed that I actually gained characters levels while crafting. Anyway, it was especially difficult to go the last two chapters of the story 7 and 8. Felt the story was dragging on at this point (starting skipping it) and the zones in those chapters were very difficult to navigate. They were dense with enemies that agro from afar, and use a lot of roots or stuns to make running on foot take forever. These zones also seemed very empty of players. Much of the middle-road journey seemed empty of players. There were players in the first two zones and then it ran pretty light. Saw quite a lot of those popup messages asking me to migrate to a more populated map instance. I always checked yes on these messages. Just pushed through to HOT expansion and received a glider last night, after dieing a lot falling off the map. (very frustrating)

 

My difficulty with the game in this journey to 80 and beyond has been getting left in the dust by players that can travel significantly faster than me. In all of the normal maps I died a lot falling off stuff. (no glider) Spent a lot of time running around mountains and navigating poorly to where I was trying to go, because the map was unclear about pathing. (have a 50% world completion right now) Tried to hang out with the player zerg train when I could find it, but even after finding it I was often left in the dust by slow running speed. I read that these mounts are fairly new to the game, based on my own frustrating experience I can see that these things have had a negative impact of the 1-80 leveling process for new players.

 

For what it's worth I bought into the ultimate pack so I had a couple level 80 boosters. Did not use them because I wanted to play the game from the start. In hindsight I should have used them because now I feel too frustrated to continue playing the game. Don't want to eat dust for another untold amount of hours to try and finish HOT and then start the POF expansion. Having just received the glider I can see it has about 5-tiers worth of mastery points to be upgraded fully and then more mastery categories to help navigate the already frustrating layout of the first HOT map. (something about bouncing mushrooms) Anyway, my fall off the map death count is already respectable...

[Game of Bones.8975]

In GW1 the game "began" at Lvl 20. Each of the worlds leveled up at different rates.

Now that PoF accounts have mounts, HoT accounts can glide, it's easier to level than ever.

[Lord Kreegan.8123]

> @"Neural.1824" said:

> Getting rid of leveling is something that needs to be explored though. I am of the mindset that leveling either needs to mean something, or it shouldn't be there. Right now, many MMORPGs, including GW2, have gone half way and pretty much made leveling a chore, while focusing their advertising and marketing on pushing how amazing their "end game" content is. Well...sort of.. these days it's all about the cash shop, but ..yeah.

>

> Leveling was a natural carry over from table top RPG's, and I'm not really sure what purpose it had other than allowing dungeon masters to create locations that their victims..er.. friends could not travel to immediately. It's not that it was a major mistake to bring leveling into the idea of an MMORPG, as familiarity was important, but I don't know that it is needed.

>

> The mastery system in GW2 ventured into bridging the gap between leveling and not having levels at all. You can be "level 100" with the mastery system, but it doesn't mean a player has, for example, ley-line gliding. Sure, someone who doesn't understand the game might see someone at level 150 and think they must be soooo much better than the guy at level 125, but they have no idea which mastery lines are unlocked on the characters. For myself, and possibly others, the level is not something we pay attention to if the number is gold colored. It's an effective way to remove the need for level cap increases, though I'm not really sure we actually need the mastery level displayed other than for those who need the ego boost.

>

> What is going to be needed is for a game company to step up and take the risk of breaking the mold. Arenanet had that chance, and they backed out. It didn't cause GW2 to fail, so that is fine, but if the gaming industry is going to move away from leveling, a couple companies are going to have to take the risk of taking the plunge.

If you go back in time to the original Elder Scrolls single-player RPGs (specifically Morrowind), a player increased skills through use and the increase in skills defined the level; that is, the level did not define the skills available. It was a great system; leveling only provided skill points that could be applied to increasing health, magic points, etc. A player could use every skill, but some skills (defined by a player's class) contributed more to increasing level than other skills (and a player had the option to be an "adventurer" such that he defined which skills made that greater contribution).

It was a great system, other aspects of the game being somewhat questionable...

I had great hopes for ESO, but they hired a jerk who had been a DAoC developer as their lead and he insisted on creating classes that defined their unique skills with levels defining skill availability. He did at least include a skill point system, but his implementation meant that the game could never be balanced... his focus on WvWvW, coming from DAoC, meant the game was going to be totally screwed up from the get-go... and it was. Pretty graphics do not a great game make...

So, a company did take the risk of breaking the mold... and then totally fucked up the implementation. That idiot lead developer is still there and ESO gets more and more fucked up as every day goes by... which is why I came back to GW2 (which I'm not all that fond of either).

 

[JSmooth.7654]

> @"Lyrah.6597" said:

> ... Don't want to eat dust for another untold amount of hours to try and finish HOT and then start the POF expansion. Having just received the glider I can see it has about 5-tiers worth of mastery points to be upgraded fully and then more mastery categories to help navigate the already frustrating layout of the first HOT map. (something about bouncing mushrooms) Anyway, my fall off the map death count is already respectable...

 

As a player who experienced HOT at the time of its release, I highly recommend that you consider putting that expansion temporarily on hold and pursuing the raptor and springer mounts from POF. These 2 mounts are worth their weight in gold and make your experience with the entire rest of the game much more enjoyable. Having access to the glider, raptor, and springer removes a lot of the potential frustration that you're likely to experience from previously released content. Please trust me on this; these items make all the difference.

 

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Menadena.7482" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Menadena.7482" said:

> > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > I did all my leveling for 10+ characters before HoT. You get XP from practically everything. You don't take 80+ hours unless you have a lot of downtime doing things that don't award XP which is pretty much being AFK. Everything that I mentioned are still ways that players can level their characters with some being faster or more practical than others. Nothing has changed to leveling since the game launched other than when they adjusted the XP progression many years ago but I think that only impacted the first 20 levels causing players to level quicker.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Reading lore, browsing the wiki, roleplaying, doing gathering runs, just stopping and smelling the roses. Not everyone sees 0-80 as a race. After your first characters or so, yeah, but I feel really sorry for you if your initial leveling experience was not one of just marveling at Tyria.

> >

> > Browsing wiki, roleplaying, gathering runs, and reading lore are external to the leveling process. They in no way contribute to your character leveling. This isn’t Elder Scrolls where you have lore books just laying around either.

> >

> > It’s not about 0-80 being a race but someone grossly exaggerating how long it takes to level a character. I leveled most of my characters through world completion and I finished in much less time than what the OP is claiming. Pretty much everyone responding to the OP is saying the same as me as well.

>

> I timed how long it took me to level. For my first characters in was about a level every 90 minutes, which was about what my friends were experiencing. As I got more used to the game and I just wanted leveling over with and a level got done in less than an hour. Now I can do a level's worth than xp in faster than that even when that is my only goal (ie, filling out a mastery).

>

> So I would agree with the original 80+ estimate for the number of hours to level when you are starting out. Remember, there is a LOT to learn and do that you eventually just take for granted.

>

> As to lore there is lore in-game (books, talking to NPCs, exploring) and out of game (the wikis). That is not even getting started on what might be written up on various forums and third party sites.

 

Again. **You’re including things that have absolutely nothing to do with leveling**. I could count activities, PvP, WvW, chatting in LA, participating in festivals, jumping puzzles, AFKing, and so on and come up to 500+ hours to level a character.

[Menadena.7482]

> @"Lyrah.6597" said:

> For what it's worth I bought into the ultimate pack so I had a couple level 80 boosters. Did not use them because I wanted to play the game from the start. In hindsight I should have used them because now I feel too frustrated to continue playing the game. Don't want to eat dust for another untold amount of hours to try and finish HOT and then start the POF expansion. Having just received the glider I can see it has about 5-tiers worth of mastery points to be upgraded fully and then more mastery categories to help navigate the already frustrating layout of the first HOT map. (something about bouncing mushrooms) Anyway, my fall off the map death count is already respectable...

 

If you are not going to be spending much time in the HOT zones you can reduce what masteries you need considerably. Do not bother with the top level gliding (ley line gliding) as it is not worth the point cost for what you get. Get maybe level 2 in the other HOT lines so you have access to minor things and the vendors. Max out (or come close to maxing out) the LS3 storyline when you do it as the extra down skill is a lifesaver (literally in that case).

 

[Biff.5312]

The goal of the game is specifically NOT to reach max level. If you find it boring to play, then it's still going to be boring for you at lvl 80.

[DMO.4158]

I can't speak for others but the reason myself and friends always quit this game after a short stint isn't the journey through the levels and story. That part is always fun. I don't find it boring at all. It allows you to learn the game and your class in an organic fashion.

 

It's after you hit 80 that the game typically gets boring because there isn't any endgame or vertical upgrades to chase.

 

This is the real threshold where people quit.

 

I have a friend who I convinced to play with me again and the first thing he asks me on discord

"How do I upgrade my gear?"

 

"You don't."

 

"Then what's the point?"

 

3 days later he's bored and playing something else.

 

I think the game needs to do a better job of explaining what exactly it is you're supposed to do at max level and how those activities can help you progress your character further.

 

The gw2 formula isn't exactly readily apparent to a new player that perhaps came from a more 'traditional' mmo. And unfortunately as a new player you don't really learn about post 80 until you get there and then it's like "now what?".

 

Problem is youre really not shown horizontal progression until post 80. So for 80 levels the game teaches you to play vertically like a traditional mmo then you hit a brick wall and there's a major design shift that can be jarring to new players.