Ayrilana.1396 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > Please go to a casino and actually play at slot machines. There are various ways to wins, with what you win differing amongst them, but when you lose, you get nothing. I can easily spend $10 at a slot machine and not win a single penny. This is vastly different than black lion chests when you get something with every single chest. > That you get "something" back every chest is irrelevant. It's still the same mechanic that drives both. The value of that something is always relative, just like the payback from a casino is. If I get a booster or two to add to my bank collection of crap I never use, the value was zero to me. And the next time, I get a glider skin. And the next time I get stuff I might as well throw away because again it's worthless to me. And the time after that I got weapon skin. *It's a kitten slot machine*. > > If Anet added the new statuette currency to cover their kitten on this in particular I dont know, I really wonder if that helps. If that's the case, everyone can just throw it in and say "its ok now". In fact Battlefront 2 lootboxes that lit this whole debacle on fire would be perfectly ok as well. They always gave you that scrap currency if you had a duplicate of what dropped, right? Too bad the politicians didnt know they always gave something, I guess. Getting something back has everything to do with being relevant. I can get *nothing* from slot machines. FACT. I always get something from Black Lion chests. FACT. There is a pretty big difference between the chests and slot machines. You always get something from the chests. The gamble with the chests is for something better. If you go as far as to call the chests as slot machines then chances are you’d say that about every single form of gambling. I bet you’d call the ecto gambling as a slot machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > Anet’s Mom didn’t raise no fool! Anet's Mom is Blizzard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMO.4158 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > From ESRB From Forbes article: > > > > > > _“ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling,” said an ESRB spokesperson. “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.”_ > > That is an old article I think? > > > > If ESRB doesnt fix their kitten themselves, I am fairly certain FTC will tell them to fix their kitten themselves or the government will regulate it. > > > > Some of the arguments that its "different" because you are buying keys and not boxes is hilarious, or ESRB argument that you are always getting something so its not gaming is just... *mindboggling*. > > > > *Its kitten identical to a slot machine*. > > > > Is GW2s loot boxes of the bad kind? No, they're not. I dont think they are bad. Its a fairly good implementation of loot boxes and the gold to gems option is an excellent icing on the cake. Its what make many people still enjoy GW2, there is no kitten p2w hidden in the boxes. But thats not really the point, is it? Its still loot boxes. Anet **could** easily manipulate droprates without oversight and more predatory. How do we know an item that we want is really in them, even if the game goes "huehuehue its a very small chance of drop trust me buy more keys"? What, players are gonna confirm it for us? All well and good because its not *my* money but imagine if casino regulations was based around the casinos just saying "just come and gamble your money away, you'll find out the win rates" lol. > > > > When you gamble with a slot machine, you either win or you lose. You always get something with Black lion chests. Lol I love this rationale. So if you get a crap consolation prize, it's magically not gambling? Why haven't casinos thought of this? Give everyone a penny that loses. BOOM! Not gambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 > @"DMO.4158" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > From ESRB From Forbes article: > > > > > > > > _“ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling,” said an ESRB spokesperson. “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.”_ > > > That is an old article I think? > > > > > > If ESRB doesnt fix their kitten themselves, I am fairly certain FTC will tell them to fix their kitten themselves or the government will regulate it. > > > > > > Some of the arguments that its "different" because you are buying keys and not boxes is hilarious, or ESRB argument that you are always getting something so its not gaming is just... *mindboggling*. > > > > > > *Its kitten identical to a slot machine*. > > > > > > Is GW2s loot boxes of the bad kind? No, they're not. I dont think they are bad. Its a fairly good implementation of loot boxes and the gold to gems option is an excellent icing on the cake. Its what make many people still enjoy GW2, there is no kitten p2w hidden in the boxes. But thats not really the point, is it? Its still loot boxes. Anet **could** easily manipulate droprates without oversight and more predatory. How do we know an item that we want is really in them, even if the game goes "huehuehue its a very small chance of drop trust me buy more keys"? What, players are gonna confirm it for us? All well and good because its not *my* money but imagine if casino regulations was based around the casinos just saying "just come and gamble your money away, you'll find out the win rates" lol. > > > > > > > When you gamble with a slot machine, you either win or you lose. You always get something with Black lion chests. > > Lol I love this rationale. > So if you get a crap consolation prize, it's magically not gambling? > > Why haven't casinos thought of this? Give everyone a penny that loses. BOOM! Not gambling. If we're talking about 2-10cent or even quarter slots, giving back a penny every time you don't win would be generous. You'd be cutting into profits, tho. The rub is what is considered a "crap consolation prize"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauried.5608 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 How many casinos will allow you to play slot machines without you having to put any RL money into them? In GW2 you can buy BLC keys with gems exchanged for gold, so no RL money involved at all. The fact that some players will buy BLC keys with gems purchased with RL money , doesnt mean that they are forced too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 > @"DMO.4158" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > From ESRB From Forbes article: > > > > > > > > _“ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling,” said an ESRB spokesperson. “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.”_ > > > That is an old article I think? > > > > > > If ESRB doesnt fix their kitten themselves, I am fairly certain FTC will tell them to fix their kitten themselves or the government will regulate it. > > > > > > Some of the arguments that its "different" because you are buying keys and not boxes is hilarious, or ESRB argument that you are always getting something so its not gaming is just... *mindboggling*. > > > > > > *Its kitten identical to a slot machine*. > > > > > > Is GW2s loot boxes of the bad kind? No, they're not. I dont think they are bad. Its a fairly good implementation of loot boxes and the gold to gems option is an excellent icing on the cake. Its what make many people still enjoy GW2, there is no kitten p2w hidden in the boxes. But thats not really the point, is it? Its still loot boxes. Anet **could** easily manipulate droprates without oversight and more predatory. How do we know an item that we want is really in them, even if the game goes "huehuehue its a very small chance of drop trust me buy more keys"? What, players are gonna confirm it for us? All well and good because its not *my* money but imagine if casino regulations was based around the casinos just saying "just come and gamble your money away, you'll find out the win rates" lol. > > > > > > > When you gamble with a slot machine, you either win or you lose. You always get something with Black lion chests. > > Lol I love this rationale. > So if you get a crap consolation prize, it's magically not gambling? > > Why haven't casinos thought of this? Give everyone a penny that loses. BOOM! Not gambling. Never said it wasn’t gambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ensign.2189 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 > @"Oriens.5630" said: > What I wanted to know is how they plan on handling it if a few states go ahead with enforceable plans, while other states do not. First off, assuming they confer with lawyers that that are not, shall we say, 'kittening kittens', they know not to issue any comment on this publicly whatsoever. Their default legal position is that nothing about this applies to them so why should they waste any time even thinking about it. Nothing in the record should say otherwise. Their plan if some state decides to pass something like this is to do absolutely nothing, because even if miraculously something like this does pass, the odds of a state's attorney having both the time and motivation to prosecute it, plus A.Net specifically being named as the target of the suit, imply a lawsuit coming sometime between the heat death of the universe and never. If such a lawsuit is miraculously brought? My guess is that they'd simply shrug and stop shipping boxes to WalMart and move to an online-only model in that state. Customers in that state would then have to buy the game online instead of purchasing a digital copy; the terms and conditions of the purchase specify the jurisdiction as the state of the seller, not the buyer, and without a federal statute stating otherwise that's all she wrote. A.Net isn't the big fish here, they don't have deep pockets, and it's not worth their time to pay for the attorneys sorting this crap out. tl;dr - if a state passes a law like this an overzealous prosecutor could possibly make A.Net stop selling gem cards at local retailers, but that's about the extent of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 > @"mauried.5608" said: > In GW2 you can buy BLC keys with gems exchanged for gold, so no RL money involved at all. > The fact that some players will buy BLC keys with gems purchased with RL money , doesnt mean that they are forced too. The fact that you can buy blc keys with gold converted to gems doesnt change the fact you *can* buy them for money too. I'm not forced to walk into a Vegas casino to gamble either but it doesnt mean that the casino can argue that this fact automatically make them immune to gambling regulations because its a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carighan.6758 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 > @"usnedward.9023" said: > When will you people get over this topic? Where is your evidence (you know link to a reputable source) for this "legislation". The game is pretty much free to play. You buy the game and you play. No monthly fees. No advantage to what is in the BL Chests except one may look prettier than another. It's a source of income for a no monthly fee game and you want stuff for free... And when will, to use your terminology, "you people get over this topic"? Not the point. You're missing it entirely. The idea of legislating loot boxes in video games is **about them exploiting players**. Over the gambling/addiction element. As that line might give away, that has exactly zip to do with whether the content of those loot boxes is mounts, contracts which save you money in the long run, skins, whatnot. Doesn't matter. Not the point. It's about psychologically exploitative sales practices. (edit) Of course, you are correct in that a lot of players take the argument ad absurdum and seem to want to get more stuff for free, when in fact it's likely that for **them** in particular the cost would go up if loot boxes were restricted/banned. But the underlying political argument is about exploitative sales via gambling, which to be fair is already legislated in plenty areas such as actual gambling or TV marketing. (edit2) So, in summary, it'd be nice to know a) ANet's stance on the topic and b) whether they are considering alternative ways of packaging their items or structuring their income and if yes, what those are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 > @"mauried.5608" said: > How many casinos will allow you to play slot machines without you having to put any RL money into them? > In GW2 you can buy BLC keys with gems exchanged for gold, so **no RL money involved at all**. > The fact that some players will buy BLC keys with gems purchased with RL money , doesnt mean that they are forced too. > Yes, there is real money involved. Every gold > gems exchange involves real money. That's where 99% of the gems come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 > @"mauried.5608" said: > How many casinos will allow you to play slot machines without you having to put any RL money into them? > In GW2 you can buy BLC keys with gems exchanged for gold, so no RL money involved at all. > The fact that some players will buy BLC keys with gems purchased with RL money , doesnt mean that they are forced too. > The example is flawed because the rewards in the casinos are in real money too. The issue is complex. On one hand, selling chances is a pretty crappy thing to do. On the other hand, gaming remains way too cheap form of entertainment while it's development costs keep rising. As a publisher/developer you have no choice but to think of ways to squeeze more money out of your customers and pretty much every such way will make them grumpy as they're used to it being cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Because of the statuettes, which are now the main use for BLC, the chests will have no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Despond.2174 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 You always get something. Whether it's what you want is another story. There is nothing wrong with the system and they even added statuettes for back up. It's not AANET responsibility to cater to a small portion of people who cannot exercise discipline with virtual gambling. Don't ruin it for the rest of the majority, but once again this is nothing like real gambling where you can end up with nothing. Too many people playing victim, trying to blame everyone else except themselves. Be an adult, make a decision about your finances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 > @"Despond.2174" said: > You always get something. Whether it's what you want is another story. There is nothing wrong with the system and they even added statuettes for back up. It's not AANET responsibility to cater to a small portion of people who cannot exercise discipline with virtual gambling. Don't ruin it for the rest of the majority, but once again this is nothing like real gambling where you can end up with nothing. Too many people playing victim, trying to blame everyone else except themselves. Be an adult, make a decision about your finances. On one hand, they put some skins ( which are no content, nor prevent you from playing the game ) behind the gemstore and the RNG of BLC. On the other hand they allow players to spend irl money in order to pay for the missing subscription. The only problem is that some skins are only avaible through chests ( they can't be traded ). And this sucks ( and it's totally different from irl gambles ). However, to me it's definitely fine, since I only pay 30€ every 2 years instead of 30€ + 300 € sub every 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 > @"Carighan.6758" said: > (edit2) > So, in summary, it'd be nice to know a) ANet's stance on the topic and b) whether they are considering alternative ways of packaging their items or structuring their income and if yes, what those are. That is just a plea to self-convict, IMO. I'm not against what you're saying, but for any sane person, your best option is to stay silent unless it is in your best interest to speak. There is no pressure for Anet to present their stance on the topic and doing such will definitely have a strong effect, likely negative for them. It'd be like outing yourself for getting a bit too handsy with some people when you got drunk at a college party years and years ago but no one reported you for anything. You can, but if you are anyone with a reputation to keep, your career or life could be completely destroyed and for no reason but to state your stance on a subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnedward.9023 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 > @"Carighan.6758" said: > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > When will you people get over this topic? Where is your evidence (you know link to a reputable source) for this "legislation". The game is pretty much free to play. You buy the game and you play. No monthly fees. No advantage to what is in the BL Chests except one may look prettier than another. It's a source of income for a no monthly fee game and you want stuff for free... > > And when will, to use your terminology, "you people get over this topic"? Not the point. You're missing it entirely. > > The idea of legislating loot boxes in video games is **about them exploiting players**. Over the gambling/addiction element. As that line might give away, that has exactly zip to do with whether the content of those loot boxes is mounts, contracts which save you money in the long run, skins, whatnot. Doesn't matter. Not the point. It's about psychologically exploitative sales practices. > > (edit) > Of course, you are correct in that a lot of players take the argument ad absurdum and seem to want to get more stuff for free, when in fact it's likely that for **them** in particular the cost would go up if loot boxes were restricted/banned. But the underlying political argument is about exploitative sales via gambling, which to be fair is already legislated in plenty areas such as actual gambling or TV marketing. > > (edit2) > So, in summary, it'd be nice to know a) ANet's stance on the topic and b) whether they are considering alternative ways of packaging their items or structuring their income and if yes, what those are. A. Probably not going to happen and sure their law department is looking into all of this. B. Yeah... I don't think they will be. They have done a few things like the statuette as an example. What is the difference if someone spends $20 on keys or $20 on new outfits or tools or boosters? Well, they get what they want unless they buy keys. The majority of people who have complained about the keys is usually followed at some point "I didn't get anything good". BUT they got something so now the general consensus is buyers remorse and the topic has been covered over and over and over and yet here we are again complaining about this being gambling and it's unfair and drop rate sucks and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcShriek.5829 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > From ESRB From Forbes article: > > > > > > > > _“ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling,” said an ESRB spokesperson. “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.”_ > > > That is an old article I think? > > > > > > If ESRB doesnt fix their kitten themselves, I am fairly certain FTC will tell them to fix their kitten themselves or the government will regulate it. > > > > > > Some of the arguments that its "different" because you are buying keys and not boxes is hilarious, or ESRB argument that you are always getting something so its not gaming is just... *mindboggling*. > > > > > > *Its kitten identical to a slot machine*. > > > > > > Is GW2s loot boxes of the bad kind? No, they're not. I dont think they are bad. Its a fairly good implementation of loot boxes and the gold to gems option is an excellent icing on the cake. Its what make many people still enjoy GW2, there is no kitten p2w hidden in the boxes. But thats not really the point, is it? Its still loot boxes. Anet **could** easily manipulate droprates without oversight and more predatory. How do we know an item that we want is really in them, even if the game goes "huehuehue its a very small chance of drop trust me buy more keys"? What, players are gonna confirm it for us? All well and good because its not *my* money but imagine if casino regulations was based around the casinos just saying "just come and gamble your money away, you'll find out the win rates" lol. > > > > > > > When you gamble with a slot machine, you either win or you lose. You always get something with Black lion chests. > You dont know how slot machines work? > > You dont "win or loose". You often win in a manner thats not ideal - less than you wagered, less than you wanted. Thats why they are freaking addictive and a vast majority of casino earnings. Its still a win, maybe next time is a better win. The very purpose of this behaviour is predatory and aimed at keeping the player engaged for a longer time at the slot machine, to make them... enjoy it. Sounds familiar? Here is a hint - "live services". > > Again, I do not think BL chest are bad. But its the same mechanics. I’ve been designing slot machines since 2005. Trust me on this one you lose. By lose I mean you place a wager and in return you get nothing back. This happens the majority of games when playing slots. Black lion chests are not the same mechanics. Back in the 90s the 9th circuit court determined that buying baseball card packs was not gambling. The case involved foil cards that collectors prized more than other. The court said that the buyer got what they paid for and were not injured. No injury means no risk. No risk means no gambling. Black lion chests are just like packs of baseball cards. US courts do not consider them gambling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcShriek.5829 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 > @"DMO.4158" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > From ESRB From Forbes article: > > > > > > > > _“ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling,” said an ESRB spokesperson. “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.”_ > > > That is an old article I think? > > > > > > If ESRB doesnt fix their kitten themselves, I am fairly certain FTC will tell them to fix their kitten themselves or the government will regulate it. > > > > > > Some of the arguments that its "different" because you are buying keys and not boxes is hilarious, or ESRB argument that you are always getting something so its not gaming is just... *mindboggling*. > > > > > > *Its kitten identical to a slot machine*. > > > > > > Is GW2s loot boxes of the bad kind? No, they're not. I dont think they are bad. Its a fairly good implementation of loot boxes and the gold to gems option is an excellent icing on the cake. Its what make many people still enjoy GW2, there is no kitten p2w hidden in the boxes. But thats not really the point, is it? Its still loot boxes. Anet **could** easily manipulate droprates without oversight and more predatory. How do we know an item that we want is really in them, even if the game goes "huehuehue its a very small chance of drop trust me buy more keys"? What, players are gonna confirm it for us? All well and good because its not *my* money but imagine if casino regulations was based around the casinos just saying "just come and gamble your money away, you'll find out the win rates" lol. > > > > > > > When you gamble with a slot machine, you either win or you lose. You always get something with Black lion chests. > > Lol I love this rationale. > So if you get a crap consolation prize, it's magically not gambling? > > Why haven't casinos thought of this? Give everyone a penny that loses. BOOM! Not gambling. Because no one would play it. It would be too Grindy. Also, because were talking about cash it would still injure the player. It would be a risk. It would still be gambling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sombra.3246 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Yes there has to be something done about this issue. My hope is that they can be transparent with us by choice instead of having to be forced to do it by legislation. I also opened a discussion on the issue of gambling, drop rates, rng and transparency check it out. There was a lot of discussion and some interesting posts in my thread as well. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26456/discussion-on-black-lion-chests-gambling-drop-rate-rng-and-transparency#latest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnedward.9023 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 > @"Sombra.3246" said: > Yes there has to be something done about this issue. My hope is that they can be transparent with us by choice instead of having to be forced to do it by legislation. > > I also opened a discussion on the issue of gambling, drop rates, rng and transparency check it out. There was a lot of discussion and some interesting posts in my thread as well. > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26456/discussion-on-black-lion-chests-gambling-drop-rate-rng-and-transparency#latest Transparent. Can I ask of what? You know already that to get a very rare like a contract or rare is very low chance to get. Let's say they published the drop rate. Would you then use that to calculate how many keys...buy the keys and when you don't get it come back to say it still is not fair? This is the point I have been trying to make. It seems only unfair to those who choose to buy keys either with gold to gem or cash and "I used 50 key and didn't get item X". Then others come and used 1 or a few keys and got item X. I have a 2700g shield skin and a 700 g staff skin from weekly key runs. OUT of ALL the possible unlocks this is what I got. I have two mini mount packs. Never got anything that good from buying keys. Never got a contract and YES I have bought keys in the past and noticed "Hey...all I am getting is stuff I do not need" so I stopped buying keys. I do not understand how people can't get to that point. IF people got to that point and ANET was not making cash on it then they would source another way. SOOOOO many people were complaining of the BLC that they totally revamped them and the loot is way better than it used to be but that is not enough. Yes there are things in the BLC I would pay cash or trade gold to gems to get. I just do not see ANET doing this because the keys have got to be a huge slush fund to keep this game going in development. I find NO CHANCE that ANET would fall under the gambling umbrella and if any legislation passes it is one or more years out before it could be implemented. I use "YOU" in a general sense and not you personally. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carighan.6758 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 > @"usnedward.9023" said: > Transparent. Can I ask of what? You know already that to get a very rare like a contract or rare is very low chance to get. Let's say they published the drop rate. Would you then use that to calculate how many keys...buy the keys and when you don't get it come back to say it still is not fair? The reason to do this is again because there will be a group of people whose easily addicted personalities would buy into these crates normally, but their mind **is** analytical enough to see the "I'd need 135000 boxes to get this" immediately, then from there push itself into "WTF am I doing with my money?!"-territory. Yes, it won't help the die-hard whales. At all. It also won't change anything for people who just dump excess money >2k or >10k or whatever into keys. But that's not why this is done at the state lottery, either. Which also has this for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sombra.3246 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > @"Sombra.3246" said: > > Yes there has to be something done about this issue. My hope is that they can be transparent with us by choice instead of having to be forced to do it by legislation. > > > > I also opened a discussion on the issue of gambling, drop rates, rng and transparency check it out. There was a lot of discussion and some interesting posts in my thread as well. > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26456/discussion-on-black-lion-chests-gambling-drop-rate-rng-and-transparency#latest > > Transparent. Can I ask of what? You know already that to get a very rare like a contract or rare is very low chance to get. Let's say they published the drop rate. Would you then use that to calculate how many keys...buy the keys and when you don't get it come back to say it still is not fair? > > This is the point I have been trying to make. It seems only unfair to those who choose to buy keys either with gold to gem or cash and "I used 50 key and didn't get item X". Then others come and used 1 or a few keys and got item X. I have a 2700g shield skin and a 700 g staff skin from weekly key runs. OUT of ALL the possible unlocks this is what I got. I have two mini mount packs. Never got anything that good from buying keys. Never got a contract and YES I have bought keys in the past and noticed "Hey...all I am getting is stuff I do not need" so I stopped buying keys. I do not understand how people can't get to that point. IF people got to that point and ANET was not making cash on it then they would source another way. SOOOOO many people were complaining of the BLC that they totally revamped them and the loot is way better than it used to be but that is not enough. > > Yes there are things in the BLC I would pay cash or trade gold to gems to get. I just do not see ANET doing this because the keys have got to be a huge slush fund to keep this game going in development. I find NO CHANCE that ANET would fall under the gambling umbrella and if any legislation passes it is one or more years out before it could be implemented. > > I use "YOU" in a general sense and not you personally. =) Firstly if you really wanted context to what I said in my post you should have gone to the link I shared on the discussion on black lion chests gambling drop rates rng and transparency. Clearly you have not done this otherwise you would not be asking this: "Transparent. Can I ask of what?" so I advice you to check that out for more context and information. Secondly there are no official data on drop rates and rng so all statements made about the chance of getting an item to drop are just assumptions. Thirdly your point makes no sense, the reason people are gambling with black lion chests is because they think they have a good chance that the item they want will drop from the chests. Based on my experience and the experience of other players opening chests the drop rate seems very very low almost to a point where it is unfair to the player. If the players were aware of the official drop rates they could make a calculated risk instead of being disappointing every time they open a black lion chest. Lastly like I said in my earlier post, I wish Anet would just be open and transparent with the players about all the drop rates and rng in the game. It should not even be an issue about legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtpelion.4562 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Technically, you don't ever get anything from virtual loot boxes because the loot is, well, virtual. Not to mention the EULA is pretty specific about the fact that you own no aspect of anything in the game, so even the virtual loot isn't yours. This means you aren't gambling because you have no chance of ever actually getting something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnedward.9023 Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 > @"Sombra.3246" said: > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > @"Sombra.3246" said: > > > Yes there has to be something done about this issue. My hope is that they can be transparent with us by choice instead of having to be forced to do it by legislation. > > > > > > I also opened a discussion on the issue of gambling, drop rates, rng and transparency check it out. There was a lot of discussion and some interesting posts in my thread as well. > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26456/discussion-on-black-lion-chests-gambling-drop-rate-rng-and-transparency#latest > > > > Transparent. Can I ask of what? You know already that to get a very rare like a contract or rare is very low chance to get. Let's say they published the drop rate. Would you then use that to calculate how many keys...buy the keys and when you don't get it come back to say it still is not fair? > > > > This is the point I have been trying to make. It seems only unfair to those who choose to buy keys either with gold to gem or cash and "I used 50 key and didn't get item X". Then others come and used 1 or a few keys and got item X. I have a 2700g shield skin and a 700 g staff skin from weekly key runs. OUT of ALL the possible unlocks this is what I got. I have two mini mount packs. Never got anything that good from buying keys. Never got a contract and YES I have bought keys in the past and noticed "Hey...all I am getting is stuff I do not need" so I stopped buying keys. I do not understand how people can't get to that point. IF people got to that point and ANET was not making cash on it then they would source another way. SOOOOO many people were complaining of the BLC that they totally revamped them and the loot is way better than it used to be but that is not enough. > > > > Yes there are things in the BLC I would pay cash or trade gold to gems to get. I just do not see ANET doing this because the keys have got to be a huge slush fund to keep this game going in development. I find NO CHANCE that ANET would fall under the gambling umbrella and if any legislation passes it is one or more years out before it could be implemented. > > > > I use "YOU" in a general sense and not you personally. =) > > Firstly if you really wanted context to what I said in my post you should have gone to the link I shared on the discussion on black lion chests gambling drop rates rng and transparency. Clearly you have not done this otherwise you would not be asking this: "Transparent. Can I ask of what?" so I advice you to check that out for more context and information. > Secondly there are no official data on drop rates and rng so all statements made about the chance of getting an item to drop are just assumptions. > Thirdly your point makes no sense, the reason people are gambling with black lion chests is because they think they have a good chance that the item they want will drop from the chests. Based on my experience and the experience of other players opening chests the drop rate seems very very low almost to a point where it is unfair to the player. If the players were aware of the official drop rates they could make a calculated risk instead of being disappointing every time they open a black lion chest. > Lastly like I said in my earlier post, I wish Anet would just be open and transparent with the players about all the drop rates and rng in the game. It should not even be an issue about legislation. You should make your point here and I should not have to jump posts to understand what you are saying but that is beside the point. Most MMOs do not post drop rates and again even if you knew the drop rate would that change your opinion on whether you buy keys or not? You think it would make a difference. I say there may be a drop in purchases but would not be an impact. AGAIN no one is forcing anyone to buy anything and this is how this game is funded. My point makes perfect sense. The reason people are gambling with keys is they HOPE to get that very rare drop and when they do not it's buyer's remorse and woe is me. I really do no think there are a lot of people who think they have a good chance at certain items. Drop rates will not make a difference except some may realize they have virtually no chance to get that very rare item. Others do not care and will keep trying and keep complaining. You say the drop rates are unfair and that is your opinion. Bizzard does not publish drop rates...EA does not publish drop rates...and so on. It seems to be an industry standard and has been for many years. DON'T BUY KEYS if you or someone else believes it unfair. What is so hard about that????? How many pre-cursors have you found? I think I am up to four. People who play way more than I do have not found even one since release. Should we now ask for drop rates for that or we are just going to stop fighting mobs?? Go watch videos and read other posts of 50, 100 and even 1000 keys opening chests and not getting ANY very rare. That should tell you right there the chance is slim to none. I wish you the best on pursuing this issue but I don't think ANET will change it's stance and I believe they will never be forced to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sombra.3246 Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > @"Sombra.3246" said: > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > @"Sombra.3246" said: > > > > Yes there has to be something done about this issue. My hope is that they can be transparent with us by choice instead of having to be forced to do it by legislation. > > > > > > > > I also opened a discussion on the issue of gambling, drop rates, rng and transparency check it out. There was a lot of discussion and some interesting posts in my thread as well. > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26456/discussion-on-black-lion-chests-gambling-drop-rate-rng-and-transparency#latest > > > > > > Transparent. Can I ask of what? You know already that to get a very rare like a contract or rare is very low chance to get. Let's say they published the drop rate. Would you then use that to calculate how many keys...buy the keys and when you don't get it come back to say it still is not fair? > > > > > > This is the point I have been trying to make. It seems only unfair to those who choose to buy keys either with gold to gem or cash and "I used 50 key and didn't get item X". Then others come and used 1 or a few keys and got item X. I have a 2700g shield skin and a 700 g staff skin from weekly key runs. OUT of ALL the possible unlocks this is what I got. I have two mini mount packs. Never got anything that good from buying keys. Never got a contract and YES I have bought keys in the past and noticed "Hey...all I am getting is stuff I do not need" so I stopped buying keys. I do not understand how people can't get to that point. IF people got to that point and ANET was not making cash on it then they would source another way. SOOOOO many people were complaining of the BLC that they totally revamped them and the loot is way better than it used to be but that is not enough. > > > > > > Yes there are things in the BLC I would pay cash or trade gold to gems to get. I just do not see ANET doing this because the keys have got to be a huge slush fund to keep this game going in development. I find NO CHANCE that ANET would fall under the gambling umbrella and if any legislation passes it is one or more years out before it could be implemented. > > > > > > I use "YOU" in a general sense and not you personally. =) > > > > Firstly if you really wanted context to what I said in my post you should have gone to the link I shared on the discussion on black lion chests gambling drop rates rng and transparency. Clearly you have not done this otherwise you would not be asking this: "Transparent. Can I ask of what?" so I advice you to check that out for more context and information. > > Secondly there are no official data on drop rates and rng so all statements made about the chance of getting an item to drop are just assumptions. > > Thirdly your point makes no sense, the reason people are gambling with black lion chests is because they think they have a good chance that the item they want will drop from the chests. Based on my experience and the experience of other players opening chests the drop rate seems very very low almost to a point where it is unfair to the player. If the players were aware of the official drop rates they could make a calculated risk instead of being disappointing every time they open a black lion chest. > > Lastly like I said in my earlier post, I wish Anet would just be open and transparent with the players about all the drop rates and rng in the game. It should not even be an issue about legislation. > > You should make your point here and I should not have to jump posts to understand what you are saying but that is beside the point. Most MMOs do not post drop rates and again even if you knew the drop rate would that change your opinion on whether you buy keys or not? You think it would make a difference. I say there may be a drop in purchases but would not be an impact. AGAIN no one is forcing anyone to buy anything and this is how this game is funded. > > My point makes perfect sense. The reason people are gambling with keys is they HOPE to get that very rare drop and when they do not it's buyer's remorse and woe is me. I really do no think there are a lot of people who think they have a good chance at certain items. Drop rates will not make a difference except some may realize they have virtually no chance to get that very rare item. Others do not care and will keep trying and keep complaining. You say the drop rates are unfair and that is your opinion. Bizzard does not publish drop rates...EA does not publish drop rates...and so on. It seems to be an industry standard and has been for many years. DON'T BUY KEYS if you or someone else believes it unfair. What is so hard about that????? > > How many pre-cursors have you found? I think I am up to four. People who play way more than I do have not found even one since release. Should we now ask for drop rates for that or we are just going to stop fighting mobs?? > > Go watch videos and read other posts of 50, 100 and even 1000 keys opening chests and not getting ANY very rare. That should tell you right there the chance is slim to none. I wish you the best on pursuing this issue but I don't think ANET will change it's stance and I believe they will never be forced to. It is true that most MMORPG's do not post data on drop rates or data on rng. That does not mean that they should not do it, besides that your argument is like a child trying to justify doing something wrong because all the other children are doing it. Your earlier point made no sense. But in this post you are making my point for me because just like you are saying in this post the reason why people are buying keys is because they think they have a chance and hold on to that hope to get the drops that they want. It is unfair to the casual gamer or the players who just want to gamble on their luck and have no clue and are ignorant of the real drop rates and rng because this data has never been made available. I have experience opening a bunch of keys and have seen people open 100's and also seen people open 1000's of keys with no very rare drops and very few rare ones. This just shows why Anet needs to be transparent with the players so that they know what chances they have of getting each type of drop. To answer you on your question about pre-cursors I have found 0 in all my time playing. This bothers me less because I do not have to spend gold/gems to gamble on a chance for it to drop. Most people just buy them of the TP. As for watching the videos, I have seen a ton of those, it is true most unknown players that do chest openings have horrible drop rates. But I also have seen some big GW2 youtubers that have suspiciously good luck, but hey maybe they are blessed by the six gods who knows. And yes I will keep discussing this issue, as for their stance I sincerely hope they do become more transparent with their players by choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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