another CoR thread

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Brother.1504" said:

> My two cents. Make any other rev build viable for wvw in the current meta and rev players would roll them. Until then hammer rev is the go to choice for a profession that is a joke in spvp, mediocre in pve, and a one trick pony in wvw. Buff revs imo.

 

If Anet "improves " expect buffs on mace for condi meta gimmick.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Threather.9354" said:

> > Hammer rev is fine. Its very punishable spec and retri rev with much less burst damage will win that hammer war every time just because this one shot rev youre talking about is so squishy.

> >

> > It really isn't that hard to guess the ability intervals.

>

> what if theres 5 of them every push like there usually is lol? **hammer rev is imo the biggest cause of pirate ship**. not so sure about this punishable spec business, they can just swap to shiro and hit riposting shadows twice and run away. I don't want it nerfed to oblivion but it seems way too effective for what it does.

 

Good Joke. Never heard of scourge?

 

Hammer Rev:

1. Needs to play full Berserker Gear or Marauder to do this dmg.

2. Needs to take all the Dmg Traits

3. Has no Condi Clear

4. Does less dmg at melee range

5. Has only 3 dmg skills on there bar

* CoR What has travel time , only does this dmg ad max range , is slow , can be negated by terrain (which you often cant see and wonder why it did no dmg)

* Phase Smash You cant move while using it which is a death sentence if used wrong.

* Drop the Hammer LONG cast time BIG tell

6. Has to manage energy

7. If 2 3 and 5 is on cd they cant do nothing on range. ( 1 is a projectile and if you get hit by it then sorry your guards do something wrong)

8. You cant just spam CoR you have to aim to because to terrain / enemy movement / travel time.

 

Scourge:

2. Can play full Trailblazer

3. Does the same dmg max range or melee

4. Has a full bar of crazy skills to spam

5. Has not to manage there resource

6. Does not have to aim there skills

 

I play a Berserker / Marauder mix and yes i do 15k against full zerk player.

But the same CoR that does 15k against a Full Zerk Spellbreaker does under 5k against a Full Trailblazer Scourge.

 

The ONLY reason i play Hammer rev is so i can kill Scourges.

The ONLY thing that can kill a Scourge is ranged high power dmg.

 

ONE hit of there Shade and i cant kill them anymore. (weakness and Fury corrupted)

You know ... the stuff the can spam.

 

IF ! i hit them with CoR i have to HOPE it doesnt get blocked / blinded / dodged / or just tanked because the have over 3100 def and over 25k life.

 

I can count on one hand how often i did over 10k against a scourge.

I play Hammer Rev for many months.

 

Before we nerf Hammer Rev we have to delete Scourge.

 

Again. The only reason Hammer Rev is played is to have any chance to kill a scourge.

 

 

 

 

[Israel.7056]

The resurgence of hammer rev in wvw has been a direct response to the advent of spellbreaker/scourge trains. Hammer rev is particularly good at flanking scourges and so they are one of the only reliable ways currently to outrange a scourge ball. They are also less vulnerable to the insane amounts of projectile hate from Winds and firebrand bubbles than other backline classes because only the auto attack can be negated/reflected. They're also a lot beefier than weavers which means they can wander off on their own a bit without as much fear of being one shot as a weaver. CoR is a very strong skill but only on slow moving targets that can be outranged. The hammer kit has only the field and the evade from phase smash as any form of active defense so anything with ports or similar range gives hammer rev trouble. Also CoR doesn't track targets well so anything with a lot of lateral movement can make it miss. The point is that glassy hammer rev is only good again because of how many guilds have gone full retard on spellbreaker/scourge/firebrand trains. They are a response to the meta.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Threather.9354" said:

> And yes, addition of rev as instant power burst class to stand aside DPS staff ele means ranged have more punishing options against bad melee in a meta where **Melee could have ton of sustain and damage reduction if they would opt to it**

 

you bring up a good point. my only question is, do you think CoR is over performing for what it does?

 

> @"Arkaile.5604" said:

> Really? Rev is the one that's creating a no-man's-land in between two zergs which people cannot enter without dying to all those shades and other massive, pulsing aoes? Is Rev the one which is stripping zergs of their boons with Winds of Disenchantment?

> Furthermore, don't bring up this nonsense of "but they're a really big problem when there's 5 of them." Yes, and the same can be said for other classes which are otherwise fine when encountered in smaller numbers. That is a problem created by zerging.

 

first of all, shades don't pulse and sb bubbles aren't that hard to get out of. that said theyre definitely a bigger factor of pirate ship then rev, but as far as threat wise all I'm saying is that the skill to contribution level is so extremely low it leaves me wondering why some people defend hammer rev. no other class besides staff weaver are as big of a threat when stacked. lol aside from scourge but with a half decent party you can pretty much run right through any of their shenanigans.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Threather.9354" said:

> > And yes, addition of rev as instant power burst class to stand aside DPS staff ele means ranged have more punishing options against bad melee in a meta where **Melee could have ton of sustain and damage reduction if they would opt to it**

>

> you bring up a good point. my only question is, do you think CoR is over performing for what it does?

>

> > @"Arkaile.5604" said:

> > Really? Rev is the one that's creating a no-man's-land in between two zergs which people cannot enter without dying to all those shades and other massive, pulsing aoes? Is Rev the one which is stripping zergs of their boons with Winds of Disenchantment?

> > Furthermore, don't bring up this nonsense of "but they're a really big problem when there's 5 of them." Yes, and the same can be said for other classes which are otherwise fine when encountered in smaller numbers. That is a problem created by zerging.

>

> first of all, shades don't pulse and sb bubbles aren't that hard to get out of. that said theyre definitely a bigger factor of pirate ship then rev, but as far as threat wise all I'm saying is that the skill to contribution level is so extremely low it leaves me wondering why some people defend hammer rev. **no other class besides staff weaver are as big of a threat when stacked.**

 

Scourge

 

Scourge is like the white rich kid in class.

He never has to learn or show any skills what so ever and still gets an A in every class because his parents donate for the school.

 

Hammer Rev is the normal guy. Shit at some things. Medicore at others. But VERY good at one thing. (lets say sport)

 

Now the Rich Kid (Scourge) complains at his parents to kick the normal Guy (Hammer Rev) from the school.

Because he hates it that he is better then him at sport.

 

The biggest easy mode class to ever exist in this game complains against there only viable counter.

 

Love it

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> Scourge

 

scourges aren't as bad as zerk ham revs but I guess that's just me

[DanAlcedo.3281]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > Scourge

>

> scourges aren't as bad as zerk ham revs but I guess that's just me

 

It is just you

[Stand The Wall.6987]

alright lol

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Wait, the non-reflectable large-animation AoE long-ranged backstab that has no red indicators coming from a heavy is overtuned in WvW?

>

> Who'd have guessed?!

 

BETTER NERF TRUESHOT AGAIN

[Euryon.9248]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Justine.6351" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

 

> Sorry if you missed the point of classes should not be able to do 15k hits at max range which will instadown anyone not at max health where the visual tell is almost non existent in the visual clutter.

>

 

Such as mesmer being able to land a very quick series of power bursts -- from stealth -- that can down a light or gc build before the latter can even react? Mesmers (and thieves) have no business complaining about the ability to one-shot people before they can do anything.

 

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Euryon.9248" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Justine.6351" said:

> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

>

> > Sorry if you missed the point of classes should not be able to do 15k hits at max range which will instadown anyone not at max health where the visual tell is almost non existent in the visual clutter.

> >

>

> Such as mesmer being able to land a very quick series of power bursts -- from stealth -- that can down a light or gc build before the latter can even react? Mesmers (and thieves) have no business complaining about the ability to one-shot people before they can do anything.

>

>

 

There are some acute differences here.

 

Comparing to Mesmer:

- Shatter doesn't work in a blob setting unless at point blank because clones get destroyed instantly

- To make shatter work, you need to be in melee, which means you're outside the protection of the blob, unlike rev.

- To get into melee to make the burst work, you need to burn multiple skills with 30+ cooldowns, and MW is on a base 10s cooldown, while CoR is 4 seconds.

- Outside of the shatter combo, mesmer is worthless, meanwhile rev provides AoE permaboons and has a ridiculously strong AA.

- Lower base armor/resistances

 

Comparing to Deadeye, the differences are:

- 21 seconds buildup for DJ to deal its damage and on a per-initiative 6s cooldown based on regen rate vs 4 seconds on CoR

- Single-target vs AoE on CoR

- Reflect negates damage VS only blocks/invulns negate CoR

- Weak base AA except on marked target/bad switching

- No answers to being dove

- Perma-countered by the current design of the game in large-scale WvW.

 

 

Or melee thief:

- Higher effective cooldown on burst via initiative, revealed debuff, and cast times

- Single target vs AoE

- Extremely risky and cannot handle almost anything in the frontline unless played extremely well and not focused.

- Needs to dive solo without protection from blob vs rev's relative safety.

 

Shared:

- 30% less base hp and lower armor

- No immunity effects or stability

 

Rev hammer may not be stronger at the damage numbers in terms of burst (anyone arguing that is clueless), however it is strictly better in basically every regard for larger-group play and has very little in terms of counterplay because it also punishes the burst builds which may try to shut it down like mesmer and thief.

[Kovu.7560]

Just put a legitimate visual tell on the effect, not that cracking ground effect you're _never_ going to see through winds and all of the necromancer, guardian and elementalist effects. I'm not asking for a pulsing red circle that nearly forces me to turn my game's brightness settings down, a simple clean drawn red line would work fine.

 

~ Kovu

[apharma.3741]

> @"Euryon.9248" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Justine.6351" said:

> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

>

> > Sorry if you missed the point of classes should not be able to do 15k hits at max range which will instadown anyone not at max health where the visual tell is almost non existent in the visual clutter.

> >

>

> Such as mesmer being able to land a very quick series of power bursts -- from stealth -- that can down a light or gc build before the latter can even react? Mesmers (and thieves) have no business complaining about the ability to one-shot people before they can do anything.

>

>

 

It's called risk vs reward. As Deceiver listed above, to one shot or even come close to those classes have to be next to you, if you're close to your zerg the chances of them being steamrolled by your zerg increases and so does the risk but the reward is taking out a high value target.

[Euryon.9248]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Euryon.9248" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"Justine.6351" said:

> > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> >

> > > Sorry if you missed the point of classes should not be able to do 15k hits at max range which will instadown anyone not at max health where the visual tell is almost non existent in the visual clutter.

> > >

> >

> > Such as mesmer being able to land a very quick series of power bursts -- from stealth -- that can down a light or gc build before the latter can even react? Mesmers (and thieves) have no business complaining about the ability to one-shot people before they can do anything.

> >

> >

>

> There are some acute differences here.

>

> Comparing to Mesmer:

> - Shatter doesn't work in a blob setting unless at point blank because clones get destroyed instantly

> - To make shatter work, you need to be in melee, which means you're outside the protection of the blob, unlike rev.

> - To get into melee to make the burst work, you need to burn multiple skills with 30+ cooldowns, and MW is on a base 10s cooldown, while CoR is 4 seconds.

> - Outside of the shatter combo, mesmer is worthless, meanwhile rev provides AoE permaboons and has a ridiculously strong AA.

> - Lower base armor/resistances

>

> Comparing to Deadeye, the differences are:

> - 21 seconds buildup for DJ to deal its damage and on a per-initiative 6s cooldown based on regen rate vs 4 seconds on CoR

> - Single-target vs AoE on CoR

> - Reflect negates damage VS only blocks/invulns negate CoR

> - Weak base AA except on marked target/bad switching

> - No answers to being dove

> - Perma-countered by the current design of the game in large-scale WvW.

>

>

> Or melee thief:

> - Higher effective cooldown on burst via initiative, revealed debuff, and cast times

> - Single target vs AoE

> - Extremely risky and cannot handle almost anything in the frontline unless played extremely well and not focused.

> - Needs to dive solo without protection from blob vs rev's relative safety.

>

> Shared:

> - 30% less base hp and lower armor

> - No immunity effects or stability

>

> Rev hammer may not be stronger at the damage numbers in terms of burst (anyone arguing that is clueless), however it is strictly better in basically every regard for larger-group play and has very little in terms of counterplay because it also punishes the burst builds which may try to shut it down like mesmer and thief.

 

Virtually your entire argument can be complete dismissed if you remove the "large blob" component. None of those things save a player running solo or in a small group when a thief or mesmer targets them from stealth. No one can run blocks/invulns constantly "just in case someone is about to gank me out of stealth".

 

And if your argument is that it's not OK to do huge/1-shot damage in a zerg but it's fine in solo/small-group play, I will not accept that. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Euryon.9248" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Euryon.9248" said:

> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > > @"Justine.6351" said:

> > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > >

> > > > Sorry if you missed the point of classes should not be able to do 15k hits at max range which will instadown anyone not at max health where the visual tell is almost non existent in the visual clutter.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Such as mesmer being able to land a very quick series of power bursts -- from stealth -- that can down a light or gc build before the latter can even react? Mesmers (and thieves) have no business complaining about the ability to one-shot people before they can do anything.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > There are some acute differences here.

> >

> > Comparing to Mesmer:

> > - Shatter doesn't work in a blob setting unless at point blank because clones get destroyed instantly

> > - To make shatter work, you need to be in melee, which means you're outside the protection of the blob, unlike rev.

> > - To get into melee to make the burst work, you need to burn multiple skills with 30+ cooldowns, and MW is on a base 10s cooldown, while CoR is 4 seconds.

> > - Outside of the shatter combo, mesmer is worthless, meanwhile rev provides AoE permaboons and has a ridiculously strong AA.

> > - Lower base armor/resistances

> >

> > Comparing to Deadeye, the differences are:

> > - 21 seconds buildup for DJ to deal its damage and on a per-initiative 6s cooldown based on regen rate vs 4 seconds on CoR

> > - Single-target vs AoE on CoR

> > - Reflect negates damage VS only blocks/invulns negate CoR

> > - Weak base AA except on marked target/bad switching

> > - No answers to being dove

> > - Perma-countered by the current design of the game in large-scale WvW.

> >

> >

> > Or melee thief:

> > - Higher effective cooldown on burst via initiative, revealed debuff, and cast times

> > - Single target vs AoE

> > - Extremely risky and cannot handle almost anything in the frontline unless played extremely well and not focused.

> > - Needs to dive solo without protection from blob vs rev's relative safety.

> >

> > Shared:

> > - 30% less base hp and lower armor

> > - No immunity effects or stability

> >

> > Rev hammer may not be stronger at the damage numbers in terms of burst (anyone arguing that is clueless), however it is strictly better in basically every regard for larger-group play and has very little in terms of counterplay because it also punishes the burst builds which may try to shut it down like mesmer and thief.

>

> Virtually your entire argument can be complete dismissed if you remove the "large blob" component. None of those things save a player running solo or in a small group when a thief or mesmer targets them from stealth. No one can run blocks/invulns constantly "just in case someone is about to gank me out of stealth".

>

> And if your argument is that it's not OK to do huge/1-shot damage in a zerg but it's fine in solo/small-group play, I will not accept that. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

And the entire argument I quoted was taking the group-play element out of the discussion by substituting in thief/mesmer in situations they're good at in small-scale, which is largely the only environment they're good in. See the problem here? You're the one taking things out of context, not me.

 

The sole point of this thread is about WvW and hammer's overeffectiveness in blobbing and how a simple change could address one of its major problems which affect both its extreme strength and its extreme weakness.

 

The reason why hammer sucks in 1v1 is because it's punished for jamming the gap closed immediately causing it to lose all its damage, and the cheese of animation hiding in larger groups can't be done, making its huge tells obvious and easy to negate. There's a reason ranger's longbow lost its range-damage scaling as well.

 

Having CoR like the OP stated would buff hammer's matchups in small-scale and stop it from being broken in large scale, which it is.

 

CoR/hammer rev is a blatant over-performer in WvW group play. Denying that is just denying fact; the weapon needs a rework, which is what people have been saying because it's extremely binary and anti-fun.

 

Edit: As a pre-emptive mention regarding this possibly taking rev viability out of blobs, it would do so if not provided additional support, but I think I can speak for every level-headed player by saying a lot more on rev needs changing to make it a properly-made class. Having a gimmick making it usable != fair or fun or balanced and definitely makes the game-state worse overall.

 

With some changes, hammer rev could be an effective midliner being a medium-hp heavy like it's supposed to be; CoR as melee and some other utility-damage abilities with some elements of group play could better blur the lines between front-and-backline, enabling the build to poke a little bit from range via its AA, but still provide melee bombs to groups engaging, and offensive boons to both front and midline players. In essence, the required skill increases but there is better room for profession growth; being pigeon-holed in this position isn't healthy for the revenant as a whole and denies buffs elsewhere to the class.

[Threather.9354]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> And the entire argument I quoted was taking the group-play element out of the discussion by substituting in thief/mesmer in situations they're good at in small-scale, which is largely the only environment they're good in. See the problem here?

Boonshare mesmer is one of the strongest builds in blobs. Shatter mesmer is just very hard to play, which is exactly what mesmer main would want to? Thief obviously only has place in focus parties which most of thief mains don't mind.

> The sole point of this thread is about WvW and hammer's overeffectiveness in blobbing and how a simple change could address one of its major problems which affect both its extreme strength and its extreme weakness.

Power hammer rev is indeed too simple. Maybe shift some of the damage from 2 to 5 as 5 has longer CD anyways.

> The reason why hammer sucks in 1v1 is because it's punished for jamming the gap closed immediately causing it to lose all its damage, and the cheese of animation hiding in larger groups makes its huge tells obvious and easy to negate. There's a reason ranger's longbow lost its range-damage scaling.

I dont agree with the changes, it would just punish melee engaging more. Currently engaging hard with superspeed, stealth or portal is an option but still hard. If you take 10k crits in facerange, it would be too punishing.

> Having CoR like the OP stated would buff hammer's matchups in small-scale and stop it from being broken in large scale, which it is.

There are ton of other weapons for other classes that are not usable in certain level of play. But definitely facing hammer rev in PvP/roaming adding in is something you cant ignore.

> CoR/hammer rev is a blatant over-performer in WvW group play. Denying that is just denying fact; the weapon needs a rework, which is what people have been saying because it's extremely binary and anti-fun.

Hmm, I dont know, retri rev with duras seems to have about correct amount of damage. Backline rev is more of a gamble due to being weak pushing in closed spaces like sm lord, against hard engages, conditions etc.

 

It just has potential to kill all these clowns running in circles dreaming of trading spells with enemy without anyone actually dying. Get Melee, Put some conditions with them. target your shades on enemy backline and keep running forward and sometimes rotate slightly backwards to another side while the revs cant come close due the fields lasting 5ish seconds. Engage again, either outsustain, superspeed, portal or stealth.

 

[Brother.1504]

Here’s my issue with this whole line of thought that cor is too powerful in wvw. So what if rev has an amazing ranged burst attack. Why not rev? You have to be careful because guess what a rev may hit you really hard. Sitting on an arrow cart and a glass ele drops meteor shower on you. Incredibly powerful. You have a moment to react. If your too glassy you may go down immediately. Same with rev cor, it hits hard. If your low on health or super squishy you may go down. So what. Why not rev. If your positioning is poor tank up some until you get better.

[Justine.6351]

You could delete cor and not replace it and hammer rev would still cause tears.

[DemonSeed.3528]

If Cor, phase smash, drop the hammer got nerfed there will be real tears.

[Sovereign.1093]

I like revs. Don't nerf. Use rite of the great dwarf.

 

You can punish them by scourge barrier x fb blocks. Revs are not that op. With the proper comp, they can't even dent you, unless you want them to.

[Justine.6351]

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> If Cor, phase smash, drop the hammer got nerfed there will be real tears.

 

Just from all the bads. If anet ever nerfed hammer rev hard enough I would just swap to glass bow SB and rip into zergs from 2k range.

[Silver.2076]

learn the math! If you see such high damage numbers and are surprised, you may overestimate the effect of armor and miscalculate the devensive. The fact is, there are more DMG modifiers and it is easier to increase the damage than the devensive. But COR can deliver such high numbers under certain circumstances, which are also consistent with the calculation. And it's just right! Because most people don't value defensive and that takes revenge;)

[Sovereign.1093]

Lag, etc. may be a factor and probably one's computer. but if you have a decent setup, always keep an eye on your dodge bar. when you push always make sure there is a bar, so you can bomb then dodge or dodge then bomb.

 

also having leaping skills help gap close the rev. pulling them, sniping them, etc will keep them pressured.

 

speed of course is important, so having your own revs on glint can assist.

 

and if they enemy pew pew is very skilled, you can always choose better areas for.a fight. lure them in chokes, use your imagination on how yo trap them. and if they overwhelm you, choose your battles. =)

[Stand The Wall.6987]

uses easiest build

gets huge crits

calls victims bads

kek

[Israel.7056]

The only reason this is suddenly an issue for some people post POF is because the meta has swung so far in the direction of Scourge/Spellbreaker/Firebrand and hammer rev can often times effectively deal with the spellbreaker/scourge/firebrand melee train. Every guild on every server I've faced since POF launch (and it was more extreme on EU) has progressively moved more and more in this direction. The problem with running the sb/scourge/fb train is that it's relatively slow moving and it restricts movement significantly because firebrand and scourges are very slow so they usually just push in a straight line and drop bubbles and shades at their feet to get kills and then turn and do it again and they usually have little to no 1200 range damage outside of their own revs which are almost always vastly underrepresented. So yeah in this meta glass hammer rev is pretty easy to play because it works really well against what almost everyone else is running.