DPS Meters and party toxicity...

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > > I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

> > >

> > > Permission is given when you join or group up with others, Anet has stated this multiple times on multiple platforms. Little fun fact, Anet also considers all combat related data public group data that isn’t owned by anyone, again one last time permission is given when joining any group. And since Anet allows them as long as they adhere to Anets guidelines and standards they aren’t hacks, just saying.

> >

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > > I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

> > >

> > > You can see it however you want, but no one need permissions to see combat data as its public.

> >

> > Vanilla game client doesn't show you this data. You need 3rd party tool to see it. Unsupported tool. Deltaconnected or any other 3rd party dev isn't legally bound to legal documentation of GW2 and Anet and so players are not bound to acknowledge, respect or use such tools. The permission for these tools to monitor us should be asked every time we are joining party.

> >

> > We can go back to this discussion once anet provides built in dps meters. At this point we are not obliged to accept the fact that unsupported, 3rd party tool can be watching us.

>

> Anet ( the creator and owner game, of every player’s account, and it’s data) states permission is granted whenever a player joins a party or a squad, they also said that combat damage is owned by the public and not anyone player. Their stance and their statements are all the facts needed on the situation they don’t need to provide anything other than they have, the Facts are Combat Meters aren’t hacks and they are allowed by the game developers as long as they meet their standards and criteria, and consent is given when joining or creating any group be it party or squad.

 

I know what they state. Their premise is wrong. I also acknowledged in my first post here that it's not going to change. Policy around dps meters is wrong, implementation of this tool is wrong but Anet refuses to discuss this subject. That being said, as dissatisfied customer, I'm going to post my negative feedback about current status quo expecting change. Whether you like it or not. Feel free to comment, you have no power to change my mind :)

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > > > I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

> > > >

> > > > Permission is given when you join or group up with others, Anet has stated this multiple times on multiple platforms. Little fun fact, Anet also considers all combat related data public group data that isn’t owned by anyone, again one last time permission is given when joining any group. And since Anet allows them as long as they adhere to Anets guidelines and standards they aren’t hacks, just saying.

> > >

> > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > > > I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

> > > >

> > > > You can see it however you want, but no one need permissions to see combat data as its public.

> > >

> > > Vanilla game client doesn't show you this data. You need 3rd party tool to see it. Unsupported tool. Deltaconnected or any other 3rd party dev isn't legally bound to legal documentation of GW2 and Anet and so players are not bound to acknowledge, respect or use such tools. The permission for these tools to monitor us should be asked every time we are joining party.

> > >

> > > We can go back to this discussion once anet provides built in dps meters. At this point we are not obliged to accept the fact that unsupported, 3rd party tool can be watching us.

> >

> > Anet ( the creator and owner game, of every player’s account, and it’s data) states permission is granted whenever a player joins a party or a squad, they also said that combat damage is owned by the public and not anyone player. Their stance and their statements are all the facts needed on the situation they don’t need to provide anything other than they have, the Facts are Combat Meters aren’t hacks and they are allowed by the game developers as long as they meet their standards and criteria, and consent is given when joining or creating any group be it party or squad.

>

> I know what they state. Their premise is wrong. I also acknowledged in my first post here that it's not going to change. Policy around dps meters is wrong, implementation of this tool is wrong but Anet refuses to discuss this subject. That being said, as dissatisfied customer, I'm going to post my negative feedback about current status quo expecting change. Whether you like it or not. Feel free to comment, you have no power to change my mind :)

 

See it’s your opinion that Anet and their premise and policy are wrong and it’s great and you can disagree with it but remember it’s just your opinion and not a fact, but the facts as they stand are:

 

Combat Meters aren’t hacks.

 

Permission is given when participating in groupsie joining or creating a party or squad.

 

All combat related data is public data.

 

And it’s Anet’s decision if their policy and premise is wrong currently as it stands they don’t believe it is, and neither do a lot of players.

 

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > > > > I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

> > > > >

> > > > > Permission is given when you join or group up with others, Anet has stated this multiple times on multiple platforms. Little fun fact, Anet also considers all combat related data public group data that isn’t owned by anyone, again one last time permission is given when joining any group. And since Anet allows them as long as they adhere to Anets guidelines and standards they aren’t hacks, just saying.

> > > >

> > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > > > > I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

> > > > >

> > > > > You can see it however you want, but no one need permissions to see combat data as its public.

> > > >

> > > > Vanilla game client doesn't show you this data. You need 3rd party tool to see it. Unsupported tool. Deltaconnected or any other 3rd party dev isn't legally bound to legal documentation of GW2 and Anet and so players are not bound to acknowledge, respect or use such tools. The permission for these tools to monitor us should be asked every time we are joining party.

> > > >

> > > > We can go back to this discussion once anet provides built in dps meters. At this point we are not obliged to accept the fact that unsupported, 3rd party tool can be watching us.

> > >

> > > Anet ( the creator and owner game, of every player’s account, and it’s data) states permission is granted whenever a player joins a party or a squad, they also said that combat damage is owned by the public and not anyone player. Their stance and their statements are all the facts needed on the situation they don’t need to provide anything other than they have, the Facts are Combat Meters aren’t hacks and they are allowed by the game developers as long as they meet their standards and criteria, and consent is given when joining or creating any group be it party or squad.

> >

> > I know what they state. Their premise is wrong. I also acknowledged in my first post here that it's not going to change. Policy around dps meters is wrong, implementation of this tool is wrong but Anet refuses to discuss this subject. That being said, as dissatisfied customer, I'm going to post my negative feedback about current status quo expecting change. Whether you like it or not. Feel free to comment, you have no power to change my mind :)

>

> See it’s your opinion that Anet and their premise and policy are wrong and it’s great and you can disagree with it but remember it’s just your opinion and not a fact, but the facts as they stand are:

>

> Combat Meters aren’t hacks.

>

> Permission is given when participating in groupsie joining or creating a party or squad.

>

> All combat related data is public data.

>

> And it’s Anet’s decision if their policy and premise is wrong currently as it stands they don’t believe it is, and neither do a lot of players.

>

 

Thank you for stating your opinion on the subject, it has been noted :)

[IndigoSundown.5419]

The truth is that this disagreement is not really about a DPS meter. It is about which group "owns" the _LFG tool_. Is the LFG tool for people who want to join in with any group doing the content they want to do at the time they want to do it? Or, is it for people to find like-minded players to do the content they want to do when they wan to do it. The meter is just an excuse for groups to argue the LFG tool should be used the way they want to use it.

[Belorn.2659]

And this topic again and the same stuff being reiterated by the same people.

 

Fact: No one want us to return to the practices that we had before DPS meters. It is not fun getting instantly kicked because of low AP. It is not fun pinging gear or get kicked. It is no fun getting instantly kicked for being on the wrong profession. People like to look back and say how much better it was before, but I was there. It was not great. It was much more common that people got kicked. People were constantly posting here on the forum about the toxic nature of dungeon players, WvW players, PvP players. If you did not have what today would be 30k ap, then kick. Did you not play the selective 3 allowed professions, then kick. Do not have the title, then kick. Did not ping proper gear, then kick. Sounds fun?

 

Kheldorn.5123, you keep reposting the same stuff so lets repost the same replies. If you join a group or squad then they will see you. They can watch you. They can see your impact on the boss, what buffs you give them, the health you may heal, your account name, your AP, your masteries, wvw level, pvp rank, current title and item skins. if you join a guild they will see when you last logged in. Gathering this information is not hacking and anet has very explicit said that they consider it public. Do not join guilds, groups or squads if you don't want any information to reach other people in the game. No dps tool in the game will show information from players not in the party or squad. Just posting on the forum itself is highlighted in Anets privacy police as inadvisable if you are concerned about sharing information.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > > > > > I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Permission is given when you join or group up with others, Anet has stated this multiple times on multiple platforms. Little fun fact, Anet also considers all combat related data public group data that isn’t owned by anyone, again one last time permission is given when joining any group. And since Anet allows them as long as they adhere to Anets guidelines and standards they aren’t hacks, just saying.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > > > > > I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You can see it however you want, but no one need permissions to see combat data as its public.

> > > > >

> > > > > Vanilla game client doesn't show you this data. You need 3rd party tool to see it. Unsupported tool. Deltaconnected or any other 3rd party dev isn't legally bound to legal documentation of GW2 and Anet and so players are not bound to acknowledge, respect or use such tools. The permission for these tools to monitor us should be asked every time we are joining party.

> > > > >

> > > > > We can go back to this discussion once anet provides built in dps meters. At this point we are not obliged to accept the fact that unsupported, 3rd party tool can be watching us.

> > > >

> > > > Anet ( the creator and owner game, of every player’s account, and it’s data) states permission is granted whenever a player joins a party or a squad, they also said that combat damage is owned by the public and not anyone player. Their stance and their statements are all the facts needed on the situation they don’t need to provide anything other than they have, the Facts are Combat Meters aren’t hacks and they are allowed by the game developers as long as they meet their standards and criteria, and consent is given when joining or creating any group be it party or squad.

> > >

> > > I know what they state. Their premise is wrong. I also acknowledged in my first post here that it's not going to change. Policy around dps meters is wrong, implementation of this tool is wrong but Anet refuses to discuss this subject. That being said, as dissatisfied customer, I'm going to post my negative feedback about current status quo expecting change. Whether you like it or not. Feel free to comment, you have no power to change my mind :)

> >

> > See it’s your opinion that Anet and their premise and policy are wrong and it’s great and you can disagree with it but remember it’s just your opinion and not a fact, but the facts as they stand are:

> >

> > Combat Meters aren’t hacks.

> >

> > Permission is given when participating in groupsie joining or creating a party or squad.

> >

> > All combat related data is public data.

> >

> > And it’s Anet’s decision if their policy and premise is wrong currently as it stands they don’t believe it is, and neither do a lot of players.

> >

>

> Thank you for stating your opinion on the subject, it has been noted :)

 

Except those are the facts as they stand, here I think this”https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion” Is needed for some players.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Belorn.2659" said:

> And this topic again and the same stuff being reiterated by the same people.

>

> Fact: No one want us to return to the practices that we had before DPS meters. It is not fun getting instantly kicked because of low AP. It is not fun pinging gear or get kicked. It is no fun getting instantly kicked for being on the wrong profession. People like to look back and say how much better it was before, but I was there. It was not great. It was much more common that people got kicked. People were constantly posting here on the forum about the toxic nature of dungeon players, WvW players, PvP players. If you did not have what today would be 30k ap, then kick. Did you not play the selective 3 allowed professions, then kick. Do not have the title, then kick. Did not ping proper gear, then kick. Sounds fun?

>

> Kheldorn.5123, you keep reposting the same stuff so lets repost the same replies. If you join a group or squad then they will see you. They can watch you. They can see your impact on the boss, what buffs you give them, the health you may heal, your account name, your AP, your masteries, your skin choices. Do not join groups or squad if you don't want to share such information. No dps tool in the game will show information from players not in the party or squad.

 

This is why their policy is wrong and disrespectful towards their customers. A majority I dare to say. As I tried to have a discussion about the subject, Anet never joined to actually discuss anything. And anet is the only one worth talking to about this. There will never be an agreement between players about this and it's pointless to argue with you on any level at any time. I am dissatisfied with their policy and I'm going to post my negative feedback about it. Since players are continously bringing it back, it is an issue. However I acknowledge it's easier for Anet (lazy) to allow dps meters and never again bother with them. They know players would use them anyway. It's lazy approach but revent events prove this company has problems with identifying and fighting security issues within a game.

 

tl;dr dps meters allow to see data you can't see within game client yourself unless you focus on watching boss health, checking possible damage numbers and skills your party is using and estimeta values. It's close to impossible for human to do this while actively playing with 1 additional person, and totally impossible when playing in a group. Meaning that DPS meter gives you an advantage over other players, which breaks anet rules for 3rd party software.

 

I am not against DPS meters. I am against faulty ideology, wrong premises and terrible implementation of anet policy. They should respect all customers same way, meanwhile they are providing advantage and special rights for players who use risky, unsupported 3rd party tools. They should change their policy to make ArcDPS opt out. But this would require effort. And effort is opposite of current, lazy approach.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > > > > > > I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Permission is given when you join or group up with others, Anet has stated this multiple times on multiple platforms. Little fun fact, Anet also considers all combat related data public group data that isn’t owned by anyone, again one last time permission is given when joining any group. And since Anet allows them as long as they adhere to Anets guidelines and standards they aren’t hacks, just saying.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > > > > > > I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You can see it however you want, but no one need permissions to see combat data as its public.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Vanilla game client doesn't show you this data. You need 3rd party tool to see it. Unsupported tool. Deltaconnected or any other 3rd party dev isn't legally bound to legal documentation of GW2 and Anet and so players are not bound to acknowledge, respect or use such tools. The permission for these tools to monitor us should be asked every time we are joining party.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We can go back to this discussion once anet provides built in dps meters. At this point we are not obliged to accept the fact that unsupported, 3rd party tool can be watching us.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anet ( the creator and owner game, of every player’s account, and it’s data) states permission is granted whenever a player joins a party or a squad, they also said that combat damage is owned by the public and not anyone player. Their stance and their statements are all the facts needed on the situation they don’t need to provide anything other than they have, the Facts are Combat Meters aren’t hacks and they are allowed by the game developers as long as they meet their standards and criteria, and consent is given when joining or creating any group be it party or squad.

> > > >

> > > > I know what they state. Their premise is wrong. I also acknowledged in my first post here that it's not going to change. Policy around dps meters is wrong, implementation of this tool is wrong but Anet refuses to discuss this subject. That being said, as dissatisfied customer, I'm going to post my negative feedback about current status quo expecting change. Whether you like it or not. Feel free to comment, you have no power to change my mind :)

> > >

> > > See it’s your opinion that Anet and their premise and policy are wrong and it’s great and you can disagree with it but remember it’s just your opinion and not a fact, but the facts as they stand are:

> > >

> > > Combat Meters aren’t hacks.

> > >

> > > Permission is given when participating in groupsie joining or creating a party or squad.

> > >

> > > All combat related data is public data.

> > >

> > > And it’s Anet’s decision if their policy and premise is wrong currently as it stands they don’t believe it is, and neither do a lot of players.

> > >

> >

> > Thank you for stating your opinion on the subject, it has been noted :)

>

> Except those are the facts as they stand, here I think this”https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion” I needed for some players.

 

I respect your right to believe whatever you want to believe. As stated above, there is no reason to discuss dps meter implementation with players. The only people worth talking to about this are anet representatives :)

[Gandrogh.1530]

> @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> I am one of those people that kick bad performance pugs but I have a "code":

>

> * I put on my LFGs I want food, pots and competent players.

> * if the person faked or didn't read anything on my LFG but we are halfway through I carry them until the end and then kick.

> * if the person swears their non-meta build performs properly I let them **always** have a go (specially in fractal CMs). 99.9% of the time their performance is subpar but sometimes we see something we can adapt into our group. That's how we ended up using spellbreaker on both CMs back when PoF was released.

> * I don't engage in any talking unless the pug thinks he's not doing anything wrong: I've been doing T4s for over a year and CMs for maybe over 6 months, **daily**, I keep tabs with new fractal strats and even like it when a pug teaches me a new one, I can tell when a person is just delusional.

 

^This. 'Nuff Said

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> I respect your right to believe whatever you want to believe. As stated above, there is no reason to discuss dps meter implementation with players. The only people worth talking to about this are anet representatives :)

 

And they've already given you there stance multiple times on the subject with Chris Cleary himself doing so.

 

What more can you ask for or debate on, your opinion on the matter doesn't align with the facts presented by Anet themselves.

Edit - https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/199789/#Comment_199789

 

[Belorn.2659]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > And this topic again and the same stuff being reiterated by the same people.

> >

> > Fact: No one want us to return to the practices that we had before DPS meters. It is not fun getting instantly kicked because of low AP. It is not fun pinging gear or get kicked. It is no fun getting instantly kicked for being on the wrong profession. People like to look back and say how much better it was before, but I was there. It was not great. It was much more common that people got kicked. People were constantly posting here on the forum about the toxic nature of dungeon players, WvW players, PvP players. If you did not have what today would be 30k ap, then kick. Did you not play the selective 3 allowed professions, then kick. Do not have the title, then kick. Did not ping proper gear, then kick. Sounds fun?

> >

> > Kheldorn.5123, you keep reposting the same stuff so lets repost the same replies. If you join a group or squad then they will see you. They can watch you. They can see your impact on the boss, what buffs you give them, the health you may heal, your account name, your AP, your masteries, your skin choices. Do not join groups or squad if you don't want to share such information. No dps tool in the game will show information from players not in the party or squad.

>

> This is why their policy is wrong and disrespectful towards their customers. A majority I dare to say. As I tried to have a discussion about the subject, Anet never joined to actually discuss anything. And anet is the only one worth talking to about this. There will never be an agreement between players about this and it's pointless to argue with you on any level at any time. I am dissatisfied with their policy and I'm going to post my negative feedback about it. Since players are continously bringing it back, it is an issue. However I acknowledge it's easier for Anet (lazy) to allow dps meters and never again bother with them. They know players would use them anyway. It's lazy approach but revent events prove this company has problems with identifying and fighting security issues within a game.

>

> tl;dr dps meters allow to see data you can't see within game client yourself unless you focus on watching boss health, checking possible damage numbers and skills your party is using and estimeta values. It's close to impossible for human to do this while actively playing with 1 additional person, and totally impossible when playing in a group. Meaning that DPS meter gives you an advantage over other players, which breaks anet rules for 3rd party software.

>

> I am not against DPS meters. I am against faulty ideology, wrong premises and terrible implementation of anet policy. They should respect all customers same way, meanwhile they are providing advantage and special rights for players who use risky, unsupported 3rd party tools. They should change their policy to make ArcDPS opt out. But this would require effort. And effort is opposite of current, lazy approach.

 

I laugh at the claim that it is impossible to watching boss health, checking possible damage numbers and skills your party is using and estimeta(estimate) values when playing in a group. Take fractal 99cm where every single player go to their *own* side and pass a DPS check. It very easy to see if someone fails at that. At other bosses, if you suspect a player is holding the other players behind it also very easy to keep and eye and see what they do. Skills has animations. If someone is just auto-attacking then the best DPS they possible could do is still a quarter or less than the other DPS players. If they also happen to be dead a moment later and you see the struggle with the game mechanics, then it is also very obvious.

 

But the biggest reason the claim is false is simply because some players enjoy watching other players. Healers in gw2 must watch other players and is a major part of their game play. There are also people who like teaching, so they constantly train to watch other people. Such people tend to become team leaders for raid and will by now have years of experience of keeping a very close each to new members in order to evaluate them and spot issues. Spend years training to do this and the result will be a person that is better than the DPS meter, and yes I know several people personally that do this. They are the one that has a distinct advantage over other players, if knowing who to kick and who to keep gives "an advantage over other players".

 

It is not anets job to hide players who make a knowingly choice to join a group and participating in group content. If one do not consent to being watched then do not join group content. It simple, its fair and it respect customer choice. Those that do not want to do content in a group can choose single player content. Those that want group content can do group content.

[Silmar Alech.4305]

I never saw toxicity in lfg groups because of dps meters, honestly. Even in T4 fractals, people simply leave if they are not happy with the group, and don't argue. You never know if they leave because of a dps meter, or because they only think the group is too underperforming for them.

I don't want to see dps meters go. Especially arcdps is very useful by showing the damage output of everyone, not only yourself. I use this to compare myself to the performance of the others. I don't talk about this ever, I use the dps meter silently. If I feel my dps is ok in comparison to the others, I'm comfortable. If I feel my dps is not ok in comparison to the others, I'm trying to improve. If I'm top dps, I'm happy. And I try to be happy, it's one of the purposes of a game to make you happy.

It's always good to have 4 other numbers for comparison as benchmark in every fight. If you only see your own dps, you never know if it is that certain boss with its certain mechanics that lowers the usual dps, or if it is you that is doing badly.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > I respect your right to believe whatever you want to believe. As stated above, there is no reason to discuss dps meter implementation with players. The only people worth talking to about this are anet representatives :)

> >

> > And they've already given you there stance multiple times on the subject with Chris Cleary himself doing so.

> >

> > What more can you ask for or debate on, your opinion on the matter doesn't align with the facts presented by Anet themselves.

>

> DPS meters were not allowed most of the time. They changed their policy pushed by constant whining from elitist minority. Now, I'm whining back. Anet wants me to post my feedback. That's why they made these forums.

 

You're not giving feedback, you're arguing semantics and there is a massive difference.

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/199789/#Comment_199789

 

Chris has explained in depth why your position is wrong. Please try to understand that before trying to "give feedback" on a topic of which your argument is from a place of being an under informed user.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > I respect your right to believe whatever you want to believe. As stated above, there is no reason to discuss dps meter implementation with players. The only people worth talking to about this are anet representatives :)

> > >

> > > And they've already given you there stance multiple times on the subject with Chris Cleary himself doing so.

> > >

> > > What more can you ask for or debate on, your opinion on the matter doesn't align with the facts presented by Anet themselves.

> >

> > DPS meters were not allowed most of the time. They changed their policy pushed by constant whining from elitist minority. Now, I'm whining back. Anet wants me to post my feedback. That's why they made these forums.

>

> You're not giving feedback, you're arguing semantics and there is a massive difference.

>

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/199789/#Comment_199789

>

> Chris has explained in depth why your position is wrong. Please try to understand that before trying to "give feedback" on a topic of which your argument is from a place of being an under informed user.

 

Chris restated their policy and ran away. There was no discussion.

[Faaris.8013]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> You can't access this data without reading game memory. This is not vanilla function, you need 3rd party dll to read it. It's literally a hack.

 

I recommend looking up what hacking is, or better, cracking, because that is what you believe happens.

 

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

 

Well, at least you admit that you have your own definition of what "hacking" is.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said:

> > > @"Mea.5491" said:

> > > Allowing DPS meters was a huge mistake. It should be illegal, using it should be reportable and every elitist behavior should be reportable and discouraged by Anet. This is a video game, not a real life job where you have to live up to other people's expectations.

> >

> > Yes, okay. It is not. But people want to run through the content as fast as possible and preferably never wipe because of dps checks and other instance mechanics. People complaining about DPS metter tend to forget that it's not just their time they are wasting but everyone else's time and efforts. Do you know how infuriating and frustrating it is when you have very little time for game and still want to achieve something but then you get some guys you wipe with NaNNan times to find out in the end that they were running Trailblazer stats for necro? There is a reason DPS metters were invented.

> >

> > Also, to be honest, all toxicity I've seen about dps metters so far came from people complain about getting kicked for not providing enough dps.

>

> I am under the impression that people who really care about performance play with static groups. Those who expect optimal gameplay but play with pugs, are silly and not worth anyone's time to be taken seriously.

 

Idd, they shouldnt be taken srsly not even by the op.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> What I find annoying is that people don't broadcast if they're using meters or want maximum DPS or meta specs. They just expect it then get all aggro when that turns out to not be the case. If they would just put their intentions in the LFG it wouldn't be such a problem.

 

Well, it's easy, if you're running T4, CM or Raids, expect people to want to do it efficiently. So that means they'll likely be running a DPS meter and meta-adjacent builds.

Otherwise, even if they use it people won't be inclined to be jerks about it.

 

That doesn't excuse people for being jerks, but honestly that's the minority. And if people that get such a group once wouldn't come whining on the forums there wouldn't be such a bad perception of the community, which in general is awesome.

I run a DPS meter, i use it in T4's and honestly, i rarely comment on anyone's DPS unless they ask or their performance is just really bad. And then i give them advice, i don't insult them.

But 99% of the time, those "normal humans" that are so friendly and not elitist, will 90% start immediately being aggressive and name calling and being generally rude, even when you're perfectly polite and trying to help. Honestly i've had a guy insult me and calling me noob and worse when i pointed out he was dying instantly upon entering Mai Trin because he didn't have enough AR for the encounter, and he should try to get more after the Fractal. Of course he ended up being kicked, not for not having AR, one can carry with 4 usually. But for being a rude ass...

So yeah, i'd take an elitist jerk on my party faster than a slacker jerk. Because i know that at least the elitist one has a lower chance of making me waste 1 hour on a 10 minute Fractal.

 

> @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> Only needed in high lvl fractals and raids, otherwise no one asks for it. And there it is needed and justified. I never encountered such stuff in other modes.

>

> That said: a friend uses a dps meter and he showed me some stuff from casual (dungeon) content. There are players that literally do 10-20 times less damage than the rest. They are super casual "bearbows" who have no idea how the game works. I have no problem in the open world with that, but if you do group content then _at least_ read a guide and try to get more or less gear that fits your role...

>

> If you are that lazy you just earned your flaming, sorry, but this is a game about group play and if you are an encumbrance for the rest of your party, you need to be called out. It's that simple.

 

Don't look down on bearbows. I've been top DPS on several world bosses and similar stuff using Power Soulbeast bearbow. But then my ranger was my second character created.

 

Finally i'd like to add this advice to all the people saying "ooh DPS meters bad":

**Try using one! Experiment, see for yourself how good or badly you're performing. Because 9/10 you'll be surprised at just how bad you're being.**

Once you go to a World boss, and see 1-3 people doing half the damage of the whole squad. Then you'll understand why you got yelled at.

[Biff.5312]

I would like a meter so that I can guage my own numbers, but have no interest in comparing them to everyone else. I agree that it causes problems to do so. The mentality that everyone has to max out their build and rotation for optimum dps is frankly a bore. What's the point of playing if you're just grinding out the same thing as everyone else? I think players should indulge their play-style preference. Their contributions shouldn't be disregarded just because they're not at the top of the chart (as long as they ARE contributing). Unfortunately this mindset is widespread in MMO communities, and I think especially since the last expansion an influx of people used to playing that way have taken up GW2 and imposed their standard. No matter how different GW2 was designed to be, people seem to want to force it into the role-based, max stat form of other existing MMOs.

[CptAurellian.9537]

Oh look, this glorious thread again. All the relevant things have already been said, but anyway: dps meters are an excellent and useful tool, toxic people are toxic no matter what, and all this talk about "new" toxicity by the meters is greatly exaggerated.

[Biff.5312]

 

> Finally i'd like to add this advice to all the people saying "ooh DPS meters bad":

> **Try using one! Experiment, see for yourself how good or badly you're performing. Because 9/10 you'll be surprised at just how bad you're being.**

 

I think that's fair enough. People do have a reason to want to know how to improve as players.

 

> Once you go to a World boss, and see 1-3 people doing half the damage of the whole squad. Then you'll understand why you got yelled at.

 

This is where I object. If the WB dies, who cares how many people contributed what? I don't see the justification in berating someone just because they aren't experienced and didn't do the most damage. The boss died, so the group was good enough. Being better, and contributing more within the group, are goals every player should have, but it's not the be-all-and-end-all and it certainly isn't the job of those who do the most damage to yell at everyone else. Mentorship is a big area of GW2 playing - if you're better than the others, teach and encourage them.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > I respect your right to believe whatever you want to believe. As stated above, there is no reason to discuss dps meter implementation with players. The only people worth talking to about this are anet representatives :)

> > > >

> > > > And they've already given you there stance multiple times on the subject with Chris Cleary himself doing so.

> > > >

> > > > What more can you ask for or debate on, your opinion on the matter doesn't align with the facts presented by Anet themselves.

> > >

> > > DPS meters were not allowed most of the time. They changed their policy pushed by constant whining from elitist minority. Now, I'm whining back. Anet wants me to post my feedback. That's why they made these forums.

> >

> > You're not giving feedback, you're arguing semantics and there is a massive difference.

> >

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/199789/#Comment_199789

> >

> > Chris has explained in depth why your position is wrong. Please try to understand that before trying to "give feedback" on a topic of which your argument is from a place of being an under informed user.

>

> Chris restated their policy and ran away. There was no discussion.

 

Like you said yourself, there's no point in discussing with players. Chris discussed the matters with the author, then just came to state an official position. There's no need for anything else.

[Mea.5491]

> @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > @"Mea.5491" said:

> > > @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said:

> > > But people want to run through the content as fast as possible and preferably never wipe because of dps checks and other instance mechanics.

> >

> > And that's a huge problem. I'm a veteran MMO player, I've been playing this genre since 2002. Back in my day we didn't "run through content as fast as possible". We took our time to socialize and experience things without guides and perfect builds. When we failed, we just respawned and tried it again, encouraging each other! No one started cursing and kicking people out of parties, no one needed DPS meters and best-in-slot gear! The problem with MMO players these days is exactly what you said: "run through the content as fast as possible". That totally isn't the point of video games but people tend to forget this and all they care about is rewards and virtual items. :c Maybe I'm just old and sentimental but I think the MMO community is disappointing these days.

>

> Maybe you have more time at hand as other players. Yesterday, I simply wanted to do fractal 99cm, which usually takes 15 to 20 minutes. I joined the group because there was a mesmer, and of course, we all expect the mesmer to be a chrono. Well, this one was a mirage, so we were 4 dps and a druid. The total dps was about the same we would have with 3 dps (warrior counts as dps) + chrono + druid. Individual damage was terrible without quickness and alacrity, but we were 4 dps now, so that wasn't the problem. The problem was cc, pulls and protection for the group, and low skill. MAMA was done after 3 wipes, and I left at Siax after 5 wipes and more than 30 minutes. The healer wasn't able to do his job at maximum potential because of the lack of alacrity, we all did little individual damage, and people were not able to adapt and got downed all the time. I said sorry and left the group simply because I never planned to spend an hour doing this fractal. I was planning for maximum 20 minutes, that's the free time I allocated to this activity.

>

> My guess is that if you have 2 hours of playtime after work, you don't want to spend all the time doing your daily fractals. But in one point I agree with you, the community is disappointing. My first MMO Game was an indie game with a small community and constant communication with the team that developed the game. Of course the GW2 community cannot compare to that tribal culture. Anet has no succeeded yet in allowing people to build their own small communities that live and play next to each other and together. The guild system is rudimentary.

 

"Maybe you have more time at hand as other players." - So 15 years ago every MMO player had more time because we didn't rush through content? Leveling to 99 in Ragnarok Online literally took years and no one complained. We teamed up and didn't care about lvl, gear and dps at all. Sometimes we did waste our free time on difficult content and left empty handed but we didn't care. We just wanted to have a good laugh together. Friends were more valuable to have than items! I miss those times. I don't even remember the last time I made a true friend in a (modern) MMO. All of the MMO friends I still talk to are from the early 2000s! But I really don't know the answer. Something has changed for sure. I guess people are just more impatient and demanding in general. Sorry for the rant, I'm feeling nostalgic. :P I know those days will never come back and times change but I wish we could do something about people hating on each other just because of gear and "not enough damage"...

[Gaile Gray.6029]

This is a subject that arises from time to time. See this thread for many pages of thoughts on the subject: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9814/dps-meter-policy-needs-to-be-revised Because this is a subject that soon becomes negative and accusatory, and because we've had many exhaustive conversations here about the subject, we're going to close this thread.