PvP/WvW Skill Split Release

[Mr Godlike.6098]

You want better build diversity on ele? How about revert:

-arcane fury change

-how healing power works with everything tempest

-Woven Stride obligatory water traits to remove conditions

-healing power scaling on sword water 2 (not base healing)

-any kind of condi nerf you did for years

-tempest generally needs reworks to do something different then healing or more stuff for team as it's completely overshadowed by firebrands who can do much more then simply healing and spamming protection.

 

and maybe SWORD SHOULD HAVE SOME REAL BUFFS?

-sword skills range and animation speed

-weak unravel that can't compete for 3th utility slot

-weaver elite skill that it's inferior gravity well with buff that doesn't matter with HORRIBLE COOL-DOWN!

-or generally give us way so when we cc something we can follow-up with something...it can be even auttoattacks...but still key 3th dps sword skills are denied thanks to internal cooldown WHEN REALLY NEED THEM.

 

But really I would appreciate if Karl&friends would start their balance testing FROM DUELING ANY KIND OF PVP META BUILD...MAYBE THEY WOULD HAVE BETTER IDEA WHY WE WANT BUFFS ON SWORD NOT DAGGER!

[zinkz.7045]

> @"eley crey.2905" said:

> All the passive stuff needs to go from WvW too, preferably removed from the game all together.

 

Like the passive aiming, yes let's bring some skill into the game.

[Yukio blaster.9082]

I like those changes to the druid, thief and warrior but the changes to necro are meh the change to elusive mind is fair too .

suggestions : Fix the confusion traits and skills cos they are useless at the current state of sPVP low duration low and rare damage(sceptre 3/riddle of sand/and illusion specs.)maybe adding more duration or more damage per skill use .

 

[aDemoNnDisguisE.8576]

Look anet, core necro and reaper need the ability to jump in to shroud faster.

Make shroud degen faster if you must.

But without shroud reduced CD these changes are... frankly garbage.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

I am actually extremely surprised how heavy-handed these changes are. Although I don't necessarily agree with all of them, I applaud the direction you are going in and think you did a good job with this list. Thank you for the update. I am not going to comment on other balance issues that weren't addressed because this is strictly about skill splitting.

 

One general critique I have, though, is how you seemed to increase cooldowns on all passive traits without actually looking at how varied their effectiveness was beforehand. So now traits like Soothing Bastion, for example, get punished with a much larger second cooldown when they weren't really ever a problem in the first place. I am okay with the cooldowns being increased as I myself am not a fan of passive defenses, _however_, the traits need to be more deeply evaluated and adjusted for such a big blanket change. If this _is_ only about skill-splitting, does this mean you will also be adjusting some of these traits in all game modes to warrant the cooldown increase?

[Ario.8964]

Most of the stuff in the OP I agree with. I think it's good that they are focusing on toning down stuff rather than ramping everything else up in an arms race format. However, there are some big things in there that need to be addressed as possible bad choices:

1) Removal of magi ammy- Removing bunker type amulets does nothing for the game but force burst metas. This is not fun. Base healing for groups and healing coefficients are what need to be addressed for balancing bunkers, not removing every amulet they've ever used. In fact, more bunker amulets should be introduced (or, rather, old ones like cleric's should come back) and then numbers should be adjusted so being a bunker is about investing in bunker stats not just chaining invuln and blocks better than other classes.

 

2) Full counter- Needs to not proc adrenal health unless it hits an enemy with the attack. This stops warriors from getting free sustain just due to the presence of aoe's.

 

3) Pain Response (thief)- Please just redesign this trait to being some form of condi cleanse that isn't a passive proc.

 

4) Configuration: Eclipse- The stability is needed. You can reduce the duration of the second one if you really think it's necessary but making hitting people a requirement is hard when so much cc flies around and engineer has no reliable stability outside of this trait. Or heck make the stability baseline and reduce the damage then design a new trait that isn't mandatory for holo form.

 

Outside of those things I actually enjoyed most of these changes. Hope to see more things like that in the future.

[Buran.3796]

I won't step myself in WvW if they nerf again Colaescence of Ruin. You already did three timnes in a row with the latest patches, butchering impossible Odds, neutering the vuln procs and therefore the fury procs, highly hurting both the Rev damaging output and the sustain. You will delete Revs from WvW with this change.

 

Also I don't care about the other changes: condi Rev was mediocre until the Retribution changes in October of 2016, bad after them and just trash after the PoF release. I'll never play a condi Rev in the future, is just crap and doesn't work in PvP/WvW.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> I am actually extremely surprised how heavy-handed these changes are. Although I don't necessarily agree with all of them, I applaud the direction you are going in and think you did a good job with this list. Thank you for the update. I am not going to comment on other balance issues that weren't addressed because this is strictly about skill splitting.

>

> One general critique I have, though, is how you seemed to increase cooldowns on all passive traits without actually looking at how varied their effectiveness was beforehand. So now traits like Soothing Bastion, for example, get punished with a 90 second cooldown when they weren't really ever a problem in the first place. I am okay with the cooldowns being increased as I myself am not a fan of passive defenses, _however_, the traits need to be more deeply evaluated and adjusted for such a big blanket change.

>

>

 

We went back and forth on this a bit. In the end we decided to err on the side of consistency for anything that cleansed conditions, fired on getting CC'd, or anything defensive that fired at low health. If we missed something, let us know and we'll look at it.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > I am actually extremely surprised how heavy-handed these changes are. Although I don't necessarily agree with all of them, I applaud the direction you are going in and think you did a good job with this list. Thank you for the update. I am not going to comment on other balance issues that weren't addressed because this is strictly about skill splitting.

> >

> > One general critique I have, though, is how you seemed to increase cooldowns on all passive traits without actually looking at how varied their effectiveness was beforehand. So now traits like Soothing Bastion, for example, get punished with a 90 second cooldown when they weren't really ever a problem in the first place. I am okay with the cooldowns being increased as I myself am not a fan of passive defenses, _however_, the traits need to be more deeply evaluated and adjusted for such a big blanket change.

> >

> >

>

> We went back and forth on this a bit. In the end we decided to err on the side of consistency for anything that cleansed conditions, fired on getting CC'd, or anything defensive that fired at low health. If we missed something, let us know and we'll look at it.

 

Thanks for responding, Ben. I since edited my post to include a question in there and to correct some misinformation, but I will post it here too:

If this is only about skill-splitting, does this mean you will also be adjusting the functionality of some of these traits in all game modes to warrant the cooldown increase?

[Kylden Ar.3724]

> @"Hyperballad.5693" said:

> Also for wvw: change resistance to immob conversion and eliminate minstrel/trailblazer stats completely.

 

If you want to get rid of stat combos in WvW, you have to switch it to the PvP gearing system, because anything in PvE can be brought into WvW. And "everyone" says they don't want PvP gearing in WvW cause 'Mah build diversity!'

 

> Elusive Mind: This trait now applies 4 seconds of Exhaustion when breaking a stun

 

Might as well say, "Deleted Mirage from PvP" because once we can't get out of the massive amount of stun lock going around PvP we are dead in our paper armor.

 

[ImperialWL.7138]

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> I won't step myself in WvW if they nerf again Colaescence of Ruin. You already did three timnes in a row with the latest patches, butchering impossible Odds, neutering the vuln procs and therefore the fury procs, highly hurting both the Rev damaging output and the sustain. You will delete Revs from WvW with this change.

>

> Also I don't care about the other changes: condi Rev was mediocre until the Retribution changes in October of 2016, bad after them and just trash after the PoF release. I'll never play a condi Rev in the future, is just crap and doesn't work in PvP/WvW.

 

Condi rev was meta in WvW after they buffed corruption traitline (forgot when it was) all the way up until PoF release. It could become meta again if scourge/warrior boon corrupt/removal was stepped up (I don't think hammer nerfs will be that bad).

[Crinn.7864]

> @"aDemoNnDisguisE.8576" said:

> Look anet, core necro and reaper need the ability to jump in to shroud faster.

I'm with you so far...

> Make shroud degen faster if you must.

...and now I'm not.

 

As far as the effectiveness of shroud as a defensive is concerned, the base degeneration has a far bigger impact on potency than the cooldown does. The removal of Speed of Shadows was certainly negative for Reaper, but it was not what killed Reaper in any way. The 5% degeneration however did kill Reaper. For example under the current 5% degeneration you need over 20% life force to complete the shroud 5>4 combo, more if somebody is actually hitting you.

 

There is literally nothing they could give Reaper that would be worth a further increase of Shroud degeneration.

 

[Professor Sprout.1560]

"Reduce influence of passive traits. (PvP not WvW)

* Passive skills make the game less skillful.

* The prevalence of passives is a common competitive player complaint. (PvP only)"

 

I'd argue that this is a PvE problem as well, and with respect I don't think that value tweaks will solve the problem. The problem as I see it is one of buildcraft bloat - every build has 18 traits, amulet stats, 4 sigils and 6 runes; on top of that most builds tap into the game's boon system for more passive effects (many with 100% or whole-fight uptimes) and have class-specific passives as well. With this in mind, looking at for example the ranger changes I don't see these proposals making any fundamental differences: although the cooldowns on the ranger's passive effects have been increased the effects have been largely unchanged and the ranger's access to all of these traits has not changed at all. As such before and after these proposals come into play builds will still benefit in a typical fight from dozens of abilities that are invisible to other players until activated (whereupon it may often be too late to make the appropriate counterplay if there even is one) and may be visible only in the UI. That in my view leaves the game in no healthier position than before.

 

As such I feel I have little to say constructive about these proposed changes except to question their validity as a means to the proposed end. In my view rather than tweaking the effects of individual passive build elements it would be better to reduce the number of elements per build - get rid of runes, sigils and amulets; reduce the number of traitlines per build to 2; rework every traitline completely; and make every core traitline as visible to other players as the elite spec traitlines. Of course that might be best accomplished by the printing of a new edition - a "Guild Wars 3" if you will!

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @"Hiraldo.7954" said:

> At first glance most of these changes look good, however I'm very puzzled as to why Celestial Avatar CD is being increased, heals are being reduced, and GoTL is being nerfed. Druid is barely viable as a healer in WvW right now and this will likely kill it entirely.

>

We **may** rethink some of the druid nerfs for WvW and do them PvP only. We're planning to have a meeting next week to go over feedback. We'll be revising the list over the next week or so and my plan is to post a first revision by the end of next week.

 

 

[Vavume.8065]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> - Cloak and Dagger: Reduced the initiative cost from 6 to 5 in PvP and WvW

 

This will change nothing, I played power dagger/dagger in WvW from release up until HoT, when I had to finally put it down due to it being unable to cope with elite specs, I long for the day I could play it once more, but changes like this are just trolling me, what needs to happen is some really big changes to how the off hand works, it needs far more utility, the cloak should have blind as base instead of having to trait for it, or it should be unblockable, and dancing dagger should be a teleport, then maybe it will be playable again.

 

I am happy to see you are nerfing the dagger auto attack chain, buffing it in the first place was a mistake, it allowed low skill play to pay off.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > I am actually extremely surprised how heavy-handed these changes are. Although I don't necessarily agree with all of them, I applaud the direction you are going in and think you did a good job with this list. Thank you for the update. I am not going to comment on other balance issues that weren't addressed because this is strictly about skill splitting.

> > >

> > > One general critique I have, though, is how you seemed to increase cooldowns on all passive traits without actually looking at how varied their effectiveness was beforehand. So now traits like Soothing Bastion, for example, get punished with a 90 second cooldown when they weren't really ever a problem in the first place. I am okay with the cooldowns being increased as I myself am not a fan of passive defenses, _however_, the traits need to be more deeply evaluated and adjusted for such a big blanket change.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > We went back and forth on this a bit. In the end we decided to err on the side of consistency for anything that cleansed conditions, fired on getting CC'd, or anything defensive that fired at low health. If we missed something, let us know and we'll look at it.

>

> Thanks for responding, Ben. I since edited my post to include a question in there and to correct some misinformation, but I will post it here too:

> If this is only about skill-splitting, does this mean you will also be adjusting the functionality of some of these traits in all game modes to warrant the cooldown increase?

 

It's hard to say at this time. Do consider that just because we don't want passives to be very strong in PvP, doesn't necessarily mean we have a problem with them in PvE.

[DiogoSilva.7089]

I have said this before, and I'll say it again.

 

Most pvp/ wvw only buffs can and should be applied to pve as well. You're (read: Anet as as whole are) just creating needlessly confusion by split-buffing skills that are underpowered _everywhere_. Many of these skills also need help in pve, so why split them in the first place? Doesn't Anet wants to avoid splits unless absolutely necessary? Well, you can avoid them here, by making those changes global.

 

Unless these skills directly affect meta comps in raids or fractals, then all _buffs_ made in this game should be game-wide. In fact, based on my personal observation, 90% of the cases where skill splitting is deemed absolutely necessary is to nerf numbers to pvp, not to buff them.

 

I feel like this weird strategy of splitting universally underpowered skills is a consequence of Anet having two different balance teams, one that is solely dedicated to fixing pvp/ wvw and has no authority over pve balance, and the other that is busy with their own projects and generally ignore or only partially consider transferring the former team's changes to pve as well.

 

To this day, revenant's jalis elite skill (as an example of many) still costs 50 energy in pve and 40 in pvp. Does anyone even use it in pve to justify being weaker there?

 

I'm sorry if my feedback isn't very useful to you, the pvp/ wvw team, who are just doing your job. But I still felt it was appropriate to communicate my thoughts here.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @"XxsdgxX.8109" said:

> Even though you didn't seem to address some other big problems like Mesmer's burst I really hope that you **ANET** don't get intimidated by the people here clearly biased for their class not wanting their respective nerfs.

> For the most part these are excellent nerfs all across the board, almost every spec needed them.

>

> Good step in the right direction, please do not pander to so many of these biased complaints.

 

We may not be done with mesmer yet. We're going to be revising our list over the next week.

[Buran.3796]

> @"ImperialWL.7138" said:

 

> Condi rev was meta in WvW after they buffed corruption traitline (forgot when it was) all the way up until PoF release. It could become meta again if scourge/warrior boon corrupt/removal was stepped up (I don't think hammer nerfs will be that bad).

 

Condi Revs is utterly useless for roaming; any class with access to stealth, gap mobility skills or ranged damage can kite condi Rev to death just running in circles while eating popcorn. Current hammer Rev at least can defend himself.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @"Endelon.1042" said:

> None of these changes will affect play in the guildhall teehee.

 

Unfortunately, the guildhall functionality is not a splittable fix.

[Shaman.2034]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > > I am actually extremely surprised how heavy-handed these changes are. Although I don't necessarily agree with all of them, I applaud the direction you are going in and think you did a good job with this list. Thank you for the update. I am not going to comment on other balance issues that weren't addressed because this is strictly about skill splitting.

> > > >

> > > > One general critique I have, though, is how you seemed to increase cooldowns on all passive traits without actually looking at how varied their effectiveness was beforehand. So now traits like Soothing Bastion, for example, get punished with a 90 second cooldown when they weren't really ever a problem in the first place. I am okay with the cooldowns being increased as I myself am not a fan of passive defenses, _however_, the traits need to be more deeply evaluated and adjusted for such a big blanket change.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > We went back and forth on this a bit. In the end we decided to err on the side of consistency for anything that cleansed conditions, fired on getting CC'd, or anything defensive that fired at low health. If we missed something, let us know and we'll look at it.

> >

> > Thanks for responding, Ben. I since edited my post to include a question in there and to correct some misinformation, but I will post it here too:

> > If this is only about skill-splitting, does this mean you will also be adjusting the functionality of some of these traits in all game modes to warrant the cooldown increase?

>

> It's hard to say at this time. Do consider that just because we don't want passives to be very strong in PvP, doesn't necessarily mean we have a problem with them in PvE.

 

What about all the proposed buffs to skills and traits that are underperforming in PvE, and will likely still underperform even with these changes? Shouldn't one of the goals be to minimize the amount of skill splits in general? I think just about every buff on this list could make it to PvE without changing anything there, while it reduces the amount of split things in the game for people to have to juggle.

[Mighty Cole.7849]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> A message from the Competitive and Skills & Balance Teams:

>

> - Dagger Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.55, 0.55, 0.85 to 0.4, 0.4, 0.85 (-15% overall) in PvP and WvW

 

So you felt that Spellbreaker AA chain (Precise Cut, Focused Slash & Keen Strike) warranted a 15% nerf but Wastrel's Ruin is still working as intended? smh

 

Really? I've always felt this AA chain was underpowered compared to other classes. In fact, I only use it for the extra mobility and unblockable "Breaching Strikes". For damage, I choose axe.

 

 

[ImperialWL.7138]

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> > @"ImperialWL.7138" said:

>

> > Condi rev was meta in WvW after they buffed corruption traitline (forgot when it was) all the way up until PoF release. It could become meta again if scourge/warrior boon corrupt/removal was stepped up (I don't think hammer nerfs will be that bad).

>

> Condi Revs is utterly useless for roaming; any class with access to stealth, gap mobility skills or ranged damage can kite condi Rev to death just running in circles while eating popcorn. Current hammer Rev at least can defend himself.

 

Yes, forgot to clarify I was talking from organised group perspective.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @"Shaman.2034" said:

> > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > > > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > > > I am actually extremely surprised how heavy-handed these changes are. Although I don't necessarily agree with all of them, I applaud the direction you are going in and think you did a good job with this list. Thank you for the update. I am not going to comment on other balance issues that weren't addressed because this is strictly about skill splitting.

> > > > >

> > > > > One general critique I have, though, is how you seemed to increase cooldowns on all passive traits without actually looking at how varied their effectiveness was beforehand. So now traits like Soothing Bastion, for example, get punished with a 90 second cooldown when they weren't really ever a problem in the first place. I am okay with the cooldowns being increased as I myself am not a fan of passive defenses, _however_, the traits need to be more deeply evaluated and adjusted for such a big blanket change.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > We went back and forth on this a bit. In the end we decided to err on the side of consistency for anything that cleansed conditions, fired on getting CC'd, or anything defensive that fired at low health. If we missed something, let us know and we'll look at it.

> > >

> > > Thanks for responding, Ben. I since edited my post to include a question in there and to correct some misinformation, but I will post it here too:

> > > If this is only about skill-splitting, does this mean you will also be adjusting the functionality of some of these traits in all game modes to warrant the cooldown increase?

> >

> > It's hard to say at this time. Do consider that just because we don't want passives to be very strong in PvP, doesn't necessarily mean we have a problem with them in PvE.

>

> What about all the proposed buffs to skills and traits that are underperforming in PvE, and will likely still underperform even with these changes? Shouldn't one of the goals be to minimize the amount of skill splits in general? I think just about every buff on this list could make it to PvE without changing anything there, while it reduces the amount of split things in the game for people to have to juggle.

 

We'll probably look at some of them to see if they can go game-wide. Our first focus for this release was on splits only. But as we revise the list, a few old splits and maybe some new ones might get changed to game-wide.

[DiogoSilva.7089]

> @"Shaman.2034" said:

>

> What about all the proposed buffs to skills and traits that are underperforming in PvE, and will likely still underperform even with these changes? Shouldn't one of the goals be to minimize the amount of skill splits in general? I think just about every buff on this list could make it to PvE without changing anything there, while it reduces the amount of split things in the game for people to have to juggle.

 

As a revenant main, I'd say the buffs to their upkeep skills would affect their meta comps in pve, so it would be dangerous to unsplit them without further changes/ consideration by the main balance team. For everything else, however, I agree with you.