On difficulty modes (Game Maker's Toolkit)

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> That doesn't mean that it *needed* to be included. The game also doesn't have open world PvP, fully customizable player housing, the ability to swap classes, fishing, etc. The game was in many ways better off without raiding, but now it has it, and we have to figure out how best to make that work within the game that existed before them.

Oh yes, the game was in an amazing position without challenging and long-term relevant content. Truly. I can't understand why all those people left during vanilla ...

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> Something something not allowed to dictate to people who have absolute authority......

>

> Except when it suits you apparently.. Odd how when the devs clearly have a standpoint and are sticking to it, you're here doing the same thing you tell others NOT to do.

 

You don't get to say what the devs will do, and neither can I, but I can continue to push for what I believe they *should* do, and you are free to as well.

 

 

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Goes to show that something that makes sense from a certain prespective isnt always the best solution. That prespective is bound to miss other equally important prespective on the subject.

 

Exactly.

 

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > That doesn't mean that it *needed* to be included. The game also doesn't have open world PvP, fully customizable player housing, the ability to swap classes, fishing, etc. The game was in many ways better off without raiding, but now it has it, and we have to figure out how best to make that work within the game that existed before them.

> Oh yes, the game was in an amazing position without challenging and long-term relevant content. Truly. I can't understand why all those people left during vanilla ...

 

See, we don't have to disagree *all* the time.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > Something something not allowed to dictate to people who have absolute authority......

> >

> > Except when it suits you apparently.. Odd how when the devs clearly have a standpoint and are sticking to it, you're here doing the same thing you tell others NOT to do.

>

> You don't get to say what the devs will do, and neither can I, but I can continue to push for what I believe they *should* do, and you are free to as well.

>

>

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Goes to show that something that makes sense from a certain prespective isnt always the best solution. That prespective is bound to miss other equally important prespective on the subject.

>

> Exactly.

>

 

And how that works both ways. Also hes not saying what the des should do, hes repeating what the devs have said on the subject.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> That doesn't mean that it *needed* to be included. The game also doesn't have open world PvP, fully customizable player housing, the ability to swap classes, fishing, etc. The game was in many ways better off without raiding, but now it has it, and we have to figure out how best to make that work within the game that existed before them.

 

Once again, it's not the same. Open world PvP affects everyone in the open world. Raids affect only those who choose to raid. Their addition is strictly beneficial, there are NO downsides.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:> I keep asking, but so far nobody's answered, where *is* this niche people keep talking about that allows you to earn Envoy armor and experience the story content of the raid modes without participating in the current difficulty version of raiding?

>

> And I already addressed why the cost/benefit of the time it would take to produce would likely balance out.

>

 

Ah, so the shinies argument again. Where's my niche to get The Ascension from the open world? Why do you think everything should be obtainable through the means **you** personally like?

 

And you didn't address anything. Nonzero effort producing zero effect is a waste. It would never balance out, it will always remain a waste.

[Feanor.2358]

double post

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> But considering how many players *never* raid, there could always be *more* activity in them.

 

Maybe, maybe not.

I don't think if we can prove easy mode raids will bring in significant amounts of players. It all depends on so many factors for example how easy they would be, the reward structure and many more...

[Lunateric.3708]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > That doesn't mean that it *needed* to be included. The game also doesn't have open world PvP, fully customizable player housing, the ability to swap classes, fishing, etc. The game was in many ways better off without raiding, but now it has it, and we have to figure out how best to make that work within the game that existed before them.

>

> Once again, it's not the same. Open world PvP affects everyone in the open world. Raids affect only those who choose to raid. Their addition is strictly beneficial, there are NO downsides.

>

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:> I keep asking, but so far nobody's answered, where *is* this niche people keep talking about that allows you to earn Envoy armor and experience the story content of the raid modes without participating in the current difficulty version of raiding?

> >

> > And I already addressed why the cost/benefit of the time it would take to produce would likely balance out.

> >

>

> Ah, so the shinies argument again. Where's my niche to get The Ascension from the open world? Why do you think everything should be obtainable through the means **you** personally like?

>

> And you didn't address anything. Nonzero effort producing zero effect is a waste. It would never balance out, it will always remain a waste.

 

The OP really wants legendary armor. The whole discussion revolves around wanting it but not wanting to commit to raids on their current difficulty.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>Once again, it's not the same. Open world PvP affects everyone in the open world. Raids affect only those who choose to raid. Their addition is strictly beneficial, there are NO downsides.

 

But that's objectively not true, at least not currently. If you do not raid, you do not have access to Envoy armor or several other cool skins. That is impacting players who do not raid. If you do not raid, there are significant chunks of the game's story that are blocked off from you. That is impacting players who do not raid. As I've said, *fix those points,* and it becomes possible to take the stance "raiding isn't for everyone," but so long as those facts remain true, raiding is measurably impacting the quality of life for players who do not raid.

 

>Ah, so the shinies argument again. Where's my niche to get The Ascension from the open world? Why do you think everything should be obtainable through the means you personally like?

 

Because I think everything should be obtainable though the means *they* personally like. I totally agree that there should be open world methods of obtaining The Ascension, and PvP methods for obtaining Legendary weapons, and so on. Every mode should have a path to every reward, so that players who want a certain skin should never be forced to play a mode that they do not enjoy. In before strawmen.

 

 

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> I don't think if we can prove easy mode raids will bring in significant amounts of players. It all depends on so many factors for example how easy they would be, the reward structure and many more...

 

Of course. It would have to be easy enough to satisfy those players, which would put it about even with the easier Dungeon paths or harder story mode chapters. It would need to be rewarding enough to entice players to repeat it or they would only do it once. But getting both these elements right would not be that hard, and even if ANet does manage to screw it up on the first pass, they could always further tweak things in subsequent updates, as they've done many times in the past. All they need to do is commit to making it work.

 

> @"Lunateric.3708" said:

>The OP really wants legendary armor. The whole discussion revolves around wanting it but not wanting to commit to raids on their current difficulty.

 

*Part* of the discussion, definitely. Not the entire discussion, but it's certainly one of the primary flaws in the current implementation.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > >Ah, so the shinies argument again. Where's my niche to get The Ascension from the open world? Why do you think everything should be obtainable through the means you personally like?

> >

> Because I think everything should be obtainable though the means *they* personally like. I totally agree that there should be open world methods of obtaining The Ascension, and PvP methods for obtaining Legendary weapons, and so on. Every mode should have a path to every reward, so that players who want a certain skin should never be forced to play a mode that they do not enjoy.

 

And you're wrong. Exclusive rewards are needed, and they are found everywhere.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> And you're wrong. Exclusive rewards are needed, and they are found everywhere.

 

And you're half-wrong, Exclusive rewards are never needed, but they do tend to show up too often.

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > And you're wrong. Exclusive rewards are needed, and they are found everywhere.

>

> And you're half-wrong, Exclusive rewards are never needed, but they do tend to show up too often.

>

 

This pretty much sums up this thread.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > And you're wrong. Exclusive rewards are needed, and they are found everywhere.

>

> And you're half-wrong, Exclusive rewards are never needed, but they do tend to show up too often.

>

 

Oh really, they aren't? Then why are they found everywhere in games? :)

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > And you're wrong. Exclusive rewards are needed, and they are found everywhere.

> >

> > And you're half-wrong, Exclusive rewards are never needed, but they do tend to show up too often.

> >

>

> Oh really, they aren't? Then why are they found everywhere in games? :)

 

It's weird, right? It's kind of like how so many games had a male protagonist with brown hair and a scraggly beard. Who knows how it happened, could just be a random probability spike, could be misguided intentions, could be that we're just seeing a pattern where none exists. The world may never find out.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > And you're wrong. Exclusive rewards are needed, and they are found everywhere.

> > >

> > > And you're half-wrong, Exclusive rewards are never needed, but they do tend to show up too often.

> > >

> >

> > Oh really, they aren't? Then why are they found everywhere in games? :)

>

> It's weird, right? It's kind of like how so many games had a male protagonist with brown hair and a scraggly beard. Who knows how it happened, could just be a random probability spike, could be misguided intentions, could be that we're just seeing a pattern where none exists. The world may never find out.

 

Or it could be that you're wrong and there are actual game design reasons behind it? Just a thought. ;)

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> No, there have been plenty of updates both ways. Swapping from fractal 50 to t4 was specifically for the casual players who wanted to do easy fractals like swamp every day.

It wasn't casual players that kept rerolling the first fractal until they've hit swamp (in fact, many casuals i knew at that time rerolled swamp because they didn't know how to run wisps :P)

 

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> The first iteration of fractals, some players pushed all the way to fractal 80, and back then you only had the AR to protect you up to about level 30. Literally everything was a one shot if it inflicted agony. Anet didn't change that to make it harder.

Because they never liked it. It was something players managed to do that Anet never planned for. They've actually done several changes even boefore the great fractal rework to make pushing beyond AR boundary harder and/or impossible.

 

 

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> But at the center of it all, we see the tier system constantly slowing down development. Every new fractal they have to figure out how to reorganize everything to fit into their 1-100 scheme, aquatic fractal use to have two distinct paths, now it has a random choice between those 2 paths.

They actually used to have random path originally. The distinct paths on specific level thing (not only for aquatic, but also for swamp and underground) was something that was up there shortly and didn't work out. I doubt reverting the change took them a lot of development time.

 

> @"thrag.9740" said:

>Every new fractal has to released in at least 4 versions. For example, thaumanova reactor use to be radically different at lower tiers (entire rooms skipped). Only for Anet to overhaul that concept years later. An overhaul that would have never been necessary with a single difficulty tier.

Untrue. The whole fractal got overhauled then, lower tier changes were just a sideeffect of a bigger rework, which would have happened even if there was t4 version only.

 

i don't remember a single change to lower tier fractals that wasn't tied to reworks on t4 level, and has been done primarily for the sake of those lower tiers.

 

 

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> Ok. So you spend about 1 hour getting the kill on easy mode, and then 50 hours getting it on challenge mote. So if easy mode gives 1 gold, challenge mote would give 100 based on your ratio?

>

> Oh but some players take 100 hours and some take 10. How do you balance for that?

You use the famous metrics and check _average_ completion times. Then balance around that.

No content rewards should ever be balanced around the top (or bottom) 1% of players in said content.

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> 1. Wrong conclusions. There is nothing supporting the claim that hypothetical raid tiers will create any influx of players, let alone a "massive" one. Actually, there's hard evidence that it won't - Fractals of the Mists. According to gw2efficiency, 2.7% of the players have unlocked "Leaves No Hero Behind" title, which is only slightly above the number of players having "Demon's Demise" one (2.3%). Meaning that the number of people raiding is about the same as the number or people playing top-tier fractals (which it t4 cm by the way, not t4 itself). So how come? There are difficulty tiers in fractals all right, 5 of them. How come the 54% of the population who have the "Professor" title don't play t4 cms?

If there was only the CM tier, and lower tiers did not exist, you'd have that 2.7% players playing fractals. Actually, you'd have less, because some of that 2.7% _did_ come there only because they started at lower tiers, and would never end up in CM if they had to do it directly.

 

Now, compare that to the % number of fractal players. Hint: it's not 2.7%. It's much, much higher.

 

Also, you ignore the fact that if not for those t1-t4 players, devs migh never have had decided to even make those CMs in the first place. And then you'd have a grant total of 0% players doing them. Basically, the lower fractal tier population justifies the effort being put into making CMs.

 

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> The video is nice, but you missed one point, the major point:

> Arena Net already **communicated** that Raids are meant to be difficult. That's how they are meant to be consumed, and reducing the difficulty is akin to spoiling the whole content.

Anet also in the past communicated that dungeons were meant to be difficult. And some times after they decided to nerf them because majority of players found them to be too hard.

Just saying.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > 1. Wrong conclusions. There is nothing supporting the claim that hypothetical raid tiers will create any influx of players, let alone a "massive" one. Actually, there's hard evidence that it won't - Fractals of the Mists. According to gw2efficiency, 2.7% of the players have unlocked "Leaves No Hero Behind" title, which is only slightly above the number of players having "Demon's Demise" one (2.3%). Meaning that the number of people raiding is about the same as the number or people playing top-tier fractals (which it t4 cm by the way, not t4 itself). So how come? There are difficulty tiers in fractals all right, 5 of them. How come the 54% of the population who have the "Professor" title don't play t4 cms?

> If there was only the CM tier, and lower tiers did not exist, you'd have that 2.7% players playing fractals. Actually, you'd have less, because some of that 2.7% _did_ come there only because they started at lower tiers, and would never end up in CM if they had to do it directly.

>

> Now, compare that to the % number of fractal players. Hint: it's not 2.7%. It's much, much higher.

>

> Also, you ignore the fact that if not for those t1-t4 players, devs migh never have had decided to even make those CMs in the first place. And then you'd have a grant total of 0% players doing them. Basically, the lower fractal tier population justifies the effort being put into making CMs.

>

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > The video is nice, but you missed one point, the major point:

> > Arena Net already **communicated** that Raids are meant to be difficult. That's how they are meant to be consumed, and reducing the difficulty is akin to spoiling the whole content.

> Anet also in the past communicated that dungeons were meant to be difficult. And some times after they decided to nerf them because majority of players found them to be too hard.

> Just saying.

 

Good thing they are sticking to their words now.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > That doesn't mean that it *needed* to be included. The game also doesn't have open world PvP, fully customizable player housing, the ability to swap classes, fishing, etc. The game was in many ways better off without raiding, but now it has it, and we have to figure out how best to make that work within the game that existed before them.

>

> Once again, it's not the same. Open world PvP affects everyone in the open world. Raids affect only those who choose to raid. Their addition is strictly beneficial, there are NO downsides.

>

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:> I keep asking, but so far nobody's answered, where *is* this niche people keep talking about that allows you to earn Envoy armor and experience the story content of the raid modes without participating in the current difficulty version of raiding?

> >

> > And I already addressed why the cost/benefit of the time it would take to produce would likely balance out.

> >

>

> Ah, so the shinies argument again. Where's my niche to get The Ascension from the open world? Why do you think everything should be obtainable through the means **you** personally like?

>

> And you didn't address anything. Nonzero effort producing zero effect is a waste. It would never balance out, it will always remain a waste.

 

This is correct for the Ascension,however, you have equally impressive Ad Infinitium and War bringer, giving the player a choice on which backpack to go for. This can’t be said for the PvP and WvW Legendary Armor as the skins are reused from ascended pieces. Perhaps if the Pvp and Wvw Armor we’re transforming Armor like the pve but had different skins, there may be less of a bicker fest.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > 1. Wrong conclusions. There is nothing supporting the claim that hypothetical raid tiers will create any influx of players, let alone a "massive" one. Actually, there's hard evidence that it won't - Fractals of the Mists. According to gw2efficiency, 2.7% of the players have unlocked "Leaves No Hero Behind" title, which is only slightly above the number of players having "Demon's Demise" one (2.3%). Meaning that the number of people raiding is about the same as the number or people playing top-tier fractals (which it t4 cm by the way, not t4 itself). So how come? There are difficulty tiers in fractals all right, 5 of them. How come the 54% of the population who have the "Professor" title don't play t4 cms?

> If there was only the CM tier, and lower tiers did not exist, you'd have that 2.7% players playing fractals. Actually, you'd have less, because some of that 2.7% _did_ come there only because they started at lower tiers, and would never end up in CM if they had to do it directly.

 

Missing the point. Fractals tiers ARE difficulty tiers in instanced content. Adding difficulty tiers to raids doesn't do anything - these exact same easier tiers already exist in FotM. The legendary influx of new players won't happen. The majority of players aren't comfortable playing difficult content, fractal CMs prove that beyond any doubt. And the small numbers that are, they already make the transition and start playing both the CMs and raids. There's no real difference between the two, aside from the party size and it doesn't affect the skill requirements at all.

 

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > That doesn't mean that it *needed* to be included. The game also doesn't have open world PvP, fully customizable player housing, the ability to swap classes, fishing, etc. The game was in many ways better off without raiding, but now it has it, and we have to figure out how best to make that work within the game that existed before them.

> >

> > Once again, it's not the same. Open world PvP affects everyone in the open world. Raids affect only those who choose to raid. Their addition is strictly beneficial, there are NO downsides.

> >

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:> I keep asking, but so far nobody's answered, where *is* this niche people keep talking about that allows you to earn Envoy armor and experience the story content of the raid modes without participating in the current difficulty version of raiding?

> > >

> > > And I already addressed why the cost/benefit of the time it would take to produce would likely balance out.

> > >

> >

> > Ah, so the shinies argument again. Where's my niche to get The Ascension from the open world? Why do you think everything should be obtainable through the means **you** personally like?

> >

> > And you didn't address anything. Nonzero effort producing zero effect is a waste. It would never balance out, it will always remain a waste.

>

> This is correct for the Ascension,however, you have equally impressive Ad Infinitium and War bringer, giving the player a choice on which backpack to go for. This can’t be said for the PvP and WvW Legendary Armor as the skins are reused from ascended pieces. Perhaps if the Pvp and Wvw Armor we’re transforming Armor like the pve but had different skins, there may be less of a bicker fest.

 

So what? The "ez mode raid" crowd used to use "functionality" as their argument. Turns out they just want the reward without the effort. What about Mistforged Triumphant? There's your unique skin. Far, *FAR* more inaccessible than Envoy armor. Where's the bitching about that one?

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Missing the point. Fractals tiers ARE difficulty tiers in instanced content. Adding difficulty tiers to raids doesn't do anything - these exact same easier tiers already exist in FotM. The legendary influx of new players won't happen. The majority of players aren't comfortable playing difficult content, fractal CMs prove that beyond any doubt.

No, they don't, because you can't say that if those lower difficulty tiers did not exist, the number of CM players would not change. Personally, i'm sure it would have been lower than it is now.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Missing the point. Fractals tiers ARE difficulty tiers in instanced content. Adding difficulty tiers to raids doesn't do anything - these exact same easier tiers already exist in FotM. The legendary influx of new players won't happen. The majority of players aren't comfortable playing difficult content, fractal CMs prove that beyond any doubt.

> No, they don't, because you can't say that if those lower difficulty tiers did not exist, the number of CM players would not change. Personally, i'm sure it would have been lower than it is now.

>

>

 

Still missing the point. I'm not saying **anything** about fractal tiers not existing. I'm saying **fractal** tiers do precisely what you expect raid tiers to do. Already. In the game. Working. As much as possible. If you think anything more can be learned, you're mistaken. If you think any more players would start raiding, you're mistaken.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > 1. Wrong conclusions. There is nothing supporting the claim that hypothetical raid tiers will create any influx of players, let alone a "massive" one. Actually, there's hard evidence that it won't - Fractals of the Mists. According to gw2efficiency, 2.7% of the players have unlocked "Leaves No Hero Behind" title, which is only slightly above the number of players having "Demon's Demise" one (2.3%). Meaning that the number of people raiding is about the same as the number or people playing top-tier fractals (which it t4 cm by the way, not t4 itself). So how come? There are difficulty tiers in fractals all right, 5 of them. How come the 54% of the population who have the "Professor" title don't play t4 cms?

> > If there was only the CM tier, and lower tiers did not exist, you'd have that 2.7% players playing fractals. Actually, you'd have less, because some of that 2.7% _did_ come there only because they started at lower tiers, and would never end up in CM if they had to do it directly.

>

> Missing the point. Fractals tiers ARE difficulty tiers in instanced content. Adding difficulty tiers to raids doesn't do anything - these exact same easier tiers already exist in FotM. The legendary influx of new players won't happen. The majority of players aren't comfortable playing difficult content, fractal CMs prove that beyond any doubt. And the small numbers that are, they already make the transition and start playing both the CMs and raids. There's no real difference between the two, aside from the party size and it doesn't affect the skill requirements at all.

>

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > That doesn't mean that it *needed* to be included. The game also doesn't have open world PvP, fully customizable player housing, the ability to swap classes, fishing, etc. The game was in many ways better off without raiding, but now it has it, and we have to figure out how best to make that work within the game that existed before them.

> > >

> > > Once again, it's not the same. Open world PvP affects everyone in the open world. Raids affect only those who choose to raid. Their addition is strictly beneficial, there are NO downsides.

> > >

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:> I keep asking, but so far nobody's answered, where *is* this niche people keep talking about that allows you to earn Envoy armor and experience the story content of the raid modes without participating in the current difficulty version of raiding?

> > > >

> > > > And I already addressed why the cost/benefit of the time it would take to produce would likely balance out.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Ah, so the shinies argument again. Where's my niche to get The Ascension from the open world? Why do you think everything should be obtainable through the means **you** personally like?

> > >

> > > And you didn't address anything. Nonzero effort producing zero effect is a waste. It would never balance out, it will always remain a waste.

> >

> > This is correct for the Ascension,however, you have equally impressive Ad Infinitium and War bringer, giving the player a choice on which backpack to go for. This can’t be said for the PvP and WvW Legendary Armor as the skins are reused from ascended pieces. Perhaps if the Pvp and Wvw Armor we’re transforming Armor like the pve but had different skins, there may be less of a bicker fest.

>

> So what? The "ez mode raid" crowd used to use "functionality" as their argument. Turns out they just want the reward without the effort. What about Mistforged Triumphant? There's your unique skin. Far, *FAR* more inaccessible than Envoy armor. Where's the kitten about that one?

 

No, I’m just saying that pvp and wvw should have unique transforming Armor one for pvp and a different one for wvw. So competing in wvw and ranked pvp is no effort?

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > 1. Wrong conclusions. There is nothing supporting the claim that hypothetical raid tiers will create any influx of players, let alone a "massive" one. Actually, there's hard evidence that it won't - Fractals of the Mists. According to gw2efficiency, 2.7% of the players have unlocked "Leaves No Hero Behind" title, which is only slightly above the number of players having "Demon's Demise" one (2.3%). Meaning that the number of people raiding is about the same as the number or people playing top-tier fractals (which it t4 cm by the way, not t4 itself). So how come? There are difficulty tiers in fractals all right, 5 of them. How come the 54% of the population who have the "Professor" title don't play t4 cms?

> > > If there was only the CM tier, and lower tiers did not exist, you'd have that 2.7% players playing fractals. Actually, you'd have less, because some of that 2.7% _did_ come there only because they started at lower tiers, and would never end up in CM if they had to do it directly.

> >

> > Missing the point. Fractals tiers ARE difficulty tiers in instanced content. Adding difficulty tiers to raids doesn't do anything - these exact same easier tiers already exist in FotM. The legendary influx of new players won't happen. The majority of players aren't comfortable playing difficult content, fractal CMs prove that beyond any doubt. And the small numbers that are, they already make the transition and start playing both the CMs and raids. There's no real difference between the two, aside from the party size and it doesn't affect the skill requirements at all.

> >

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > That doesn't mean that it *needed* to be included. The game also doesn't have open world PvP, fully customizable player housing, the ability to swap classes, fishing, etc. The game was in many ways better off without raiding, but now it has it, and we have to figure out how best to make that work within the game that existed before them.

> > > >

> > > > Once again, it's not the same. Open world PvP affects everyone in the open world. Raids affect only those who choose to raid. Their addition is strictly beneficial, there are NO downsides.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:> I keep asking, but so far nobody's answered, where *is* this niche people keep talking about that allows you to earn Envoy armor and experience the story content of the raid modes without participating in the current difficulty version of raiding?

> > > > >

> > > > > And I already addressed why the cost/benefit of the time it would take to produce would likely balance out.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Ah, so the shinies argument again. Where's my niche to get The Ascension from the open world? Why do you think everything should be obtainable through the means **you** personally like?

> > > >

> > > > And you didn't address anything. Nonzero effort producing zero effect is a waste. It would never balance out, it will always remain a waste.

> > >

> > > This is correct for the Ascension,however, you have equally impressive Ad Infinitium and War bringer, giving the player a choice on which backpack to go for. This can’t be said for the PvP and WvW Legendary Armor as the skins are reused from ascended pieces. Perhaps if the Pvp and Wvw Armor we’re transforming Armor like the pve but had different skins, there may be less of a bicker fest.

> >

> > So what? The "ez mode raid" crowd used to use "functionality" as their argument. Turns out they just want the reward without the effort. What about Mistforged Triumphant? There's your unique skin. Far, *FAR* more inaccessible than Envoy armor. Where's the kitten about that one?

>

> No, I’m just saying that pvp and wvw should have unique transforming Armor one for pvp and a different one for wvw. So competing in wvw and ranked pvp is no effort?

 

What?! No, I'm simply saying "if you don't want to raid, you don't get Envoy armor". Just like if you don't want to WvW you don't get Sublime Mistforged. It's called freedom of choice.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> >

> > No, I’m just saying that pvp and wvw should have unique transforming Armor one for pvp and a different one for wvw. So competing in wvw and ranked pvp is no effort?

>

> What?! No, I'm simply saying "if you don't want to raid, you don't get Envoy armor". Just like if you don't want to WvW you don't get Sublime Mistforged. It's called freedom of choice.

Sublime Mistforged is not a unique transforming armor skin. It's also definitely not on the level of envoy armor.

Additionally, again, WvW and SPvP legendaries have no unique skin whatsoever. I'm pretty sure that the discussion would not have been as intense if all 3 modes had been treated equally and the legendary envoy armor had the same skin as the t2 precurson version. And yet for some reason i'm pretty sure that if devs did it that way, the outrage of the raid community to that idea would have been at least comparable to what is happening now.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > >

> > > No, I’m just saying that pvp and wvw should have unique transforming Armor one for pvp and a different one for wvw. So competing in wvw and ranked pvp is no effort?

> >

> > What?! No, I'm simply saying "if you don't want to raid, you don't get Envoy armor". Just like if you don't want to WvW you don't get Sublime Mistforged. It's called freedom of choice.

> Sublime Mistforged is not a unique transforming armor skin. It's also definitely not on the level of envoy armor. There's no equality here.

> Also, what about the SPvP set?

>

>

 

That's up to the pvp people to ask. As for the rest - Sunblime Mistforged is most definitely an unique set, with unique visuals. I'm not quite clear on what you mean by "transforming" as technically each and every armor skin can be transmuted into another, provided that another is unlocked on your account and of the same weight. So I'm going to assume you're talking about "stat-selectable". In which case - WvW has a road to its own legendary armor. Unlock Sublime, craft legendary, transmog the legendary to Sublime. There you go. Takes effort, all in WvW. Just like Envoy takes effort, all in raids.