Please be careful with split balancing - it should never be the go-to method

[Menadena.7482]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> FYI they tried the regular method for over 5 years. Let them change it up.

 

Yes, people had been BEGGING for a split for years.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> I wholly disagree. A lot of GW2’s problems, past and present, would’ve been handily solved using it. It should’ve been the way they handled things from the very start.

>

> Case in point the current uselessness of Confusion in PvE.

 

Thought that was weakness. D:

[Velran.1052]

> @"Galaa.8475" said:

> Lets all be honest here. Balance would not even be needed if it was'nt because of pvp/wvw. Those two are the issue. Remove them from the game, problem solved. Or put them in there on little world where pve and pvp/wvw never meet.

 

Ah yes, The good old cut 60% of your game and all the time you spent building it. Great way to build up your business.

[Galaa.8475]

well, pvp,wvw is more like 10 percent at most. i dont think you guys understand how small of a population pvp/wvw is. no mmo is every 60 percent of the population.

 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > I keep thinking of what happened with City of Heroes. One of the things that murdered the game was Issue 6, where they restructured all of PVP so that all of the skills worked differently between game modes. This change just alienated the current PVP playerbase, while also creating a nigh insurmountable barrier of entry for PVErs who are looking to PVP. You practically had to learn the entire game mode from scratch.

> >

> > I suspect that this is the reason that Anet went hard on keeping skills similar between modes. IF the skills aren't similar, you create dissonance between modes, which then creates massive rifts, which then causes the game to segment and die.

>

> If you read dev statments, the mechanics of skilsl will **NEVER** be split. Only it's effects in terms of numbers. So a skill that stuns and bleeds in PvP will always stun and bleed in PvE, etc.

 

The mechanics weren't split in City of Heroes, either. At least most of them. They just added additional class based buffs and nerfed/buffed different skills to an extreme level. This came into play when dealing with the elaborate controls and resistances system, which changed the playstyle for a lot of classes. Defenders, Controllers, Dominators, and to an extent Tanks had to switch their playstyle around to emulate DPS classes like Scrappers and Blasters. This meant they had to re-spec their builds from scratch, and also had to learn a completely different playstyle. The innate defenses also meant that Scrappers, Brutes, and Tanks lost their identity, since their toggle skills were now baseline stats for every other class.

 

So, dominators became scrappers, scrappers became inefficient dominators, and defenders/controllers became weaker blasters. The bizarre thing is, a lot of these changes were requested by the players, but when they were implemented nobody ended up happy with them.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > I keep thinking of what happened with City of Heroes. One of the things that murdered the game was Issue 6, where they restructured all of PVP so that all of the skills worked differently between game modes. This change just alienated the current PVP playerbase, while also creating a nigh insurmountable barrier of entry for PVErs who are looking to PVP. You practically had to learn the entire game mode from scratch.

> > >

> > > I suspect that this is the reason that Anet went hard on keeping skills similar between modes. IF the skills aren't similar, you create dissonance between modes, which then creates massive rifts, which then causes the game to segment and die.

> >

> > If you read dev statments, the mechanics of skilsl will **NEVER** be split. Only it's effects in terms of numbers. So a skill that stuns and bleeds in PvP will always stun and bleed in PvE, etc.

>

> The mechanics weren't split in City of Heroes, either. At least most of them. They just added additional class based buffs and nerfed/buffed different skills to an extreme level. This came into play when dealing with the elaborate controls and resistances system, which changed the playstyle for a lot of classes. Defenders, Controllers, Dominators, and to an extent Tanks had to switch their playstyle around to emulate DPS classes like Scrappers and Blasters. This meant they had to re-spec their builds from scratch, and also had to learn a completely different playstyle. The innate defenses also meant that Scrappers, Brutes, and Tanks lost their identity, since their toggle skills were now baseline stats for every other class.

>

> So, dominators became scrappers, scrappers became inefficient dominators, and defenders/controllers became weaker blasters. The bizarre thing is, a lot of these changes were requested by the players, but when they were implemented nobody ended up happy with them.

 

Never played CoH but if i read you right what you're describing won't ever happen in GW2, because again, they're not adding effects to PvP that don't happen in PvE, the only difference is that they're changing damage numbers, cooldowns, and number of stacks, and durations. But the overal effect of the skills will be kept the same, just the details change.

Their intent is exactly to avoid changing the identity of classes, and skills having different behaviours in PvP than in PvE. So what you're describing won't happen, since they are very aware of that danger, and are actively avoiding that.

 

Another thing to note, is your last sentence: unlike what happens often in GW2, player opinions need to be taken with a huge grain of salt (more like a boulder of salt), because player perspective is usually very narrow and restricted. And usually these changes will end up doing more harm than good. We've already had good examples of this in GW2.

[XenesisII.1540]

Retaliation and Confusion are effects that were near instant kills in wvw, but doesn't matter at all pve, well except guildhall arena. Skills need splits, frankly a lot of damage skills and crowd control skills could use it, having skills one shot people is beyond terrible for a mmorpg, this isn't a first person shooter. With the split they could give pve more damage if they wanted and control it in pvp areas.

[Zedek.8932]

No, we need more individual balances actually.

Since the game modes are different and require different aspects, it makes sense to balance them seperately.

I don't even understand the reasoning of the OP at all. That's like using a drilling machine but refuse to change the drilling bits depending on the surface you want to drill into. Concrete is different from a drywall or tiles in your bathroom. Using the wrong boring bit either does nothing or ruins the wall for no good. aNet did it without change, and it either did nothing or ruined the profession.

 

Excelsior.

[Daishi.6027]

Think it would just be easier to balance for PvP from the start.

 

It's easier to create PvE content to match the balance of classes you already have, than it is to balance PvP around what players can, and can't do to each other based on the strength designed for content that will always act based on it's AI.

 

Also AI is easier to please since they don't complain about OP players, or getting nerfed to match them.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> The splits are good in our circumstances. The problem with them is they reflect the need to truly differentiate the modes: Make them different enough and you have 2 games instead of one (or 3, in GW2). We have this problem already, because a lot of people only play one mode. The splitting will be good for balance, no doubt, but it has a very high potential of being terrible for the community in the end.

 

Bad balance directly affect the community/ties of the game.

[Celsith.2753]

> @"Crackmonster.2790" said:

 

> As title says i just wanted to point out that you should be careful with split balancing. It is not to be used lightly as it fundamentally changes the feel and flow of the class in different modes - it should instead be used only as a last resort when normal means of balancing seems inadequate or it will result in reduced quality of the game.

 

> Cheers!

 

 

Classes should already feel different in the different modes, if you are using the exact same build in fractals as you are in wvw for example, you're probably doing it wrong. Splits are very much needed and may even result in the same build being viable in multiple modes!

[Aza.2105]

> @"Crackmonster.2790" said:

> Hello Anet,

>

> As title says i just wanted to point out that you should be careful with split balancing. It is not to be used lightly as it fundamentally changes the feel and flow of the class in different modes - it should instead be used only as a last resort when normal means of balancing seems inadequate or it will result in reduced quality of the game.

>

> I have just noticed you seem to be jumping aboard this train but let me just warn you - abuse and the game will suffer. It is a last resort and should always be used as such, as ultimately the noblest design goal should be consistency in class experience when playing the game.

>

> Cheers!

 

No they shouldn't be careful. They should absolutely DO IT. Pve, Spvp and WVW are three totally different game modes. To a player who is dedicated to one, skill split is a must. A dedicated raider wouldn't want to see skills nerfed because of spvp. A spvp player does not want to see skills unnecessarily buffed because they were underperforming in pve.

 

The number one cause of most balance issues in this game is because Anet frequently balanced skills universally. Look at scourge, apparently fine in pve. But its a abomination in spvp and wvw.

 

[BrokenGlass.9356]

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> I agree with the OP.

> Skill splitting IS a good and fast band-aid, but it doesn't solve the origin of the problem, the basic concept that failed. If you keep constructing over that kind of fast repair, you'll eventually need to backtrack to address the original problem... and the multiple ramifications of the splitting will make everything worse, or impossible to repair.

 

In order to fix the 'origin of the problem' you'd be left with the answer: make GW3.

 

I place the problem at a different meta level.

 

If mobs were had AI that made them act like players (actively dodging attacks, applying boons, stripping boons, applying conditions, using stunbreaks ect...) then there would be no (or very little) need for split balance. However... As this is a huge game with an absurdly high number of enemies... Editing the AI behavior would be an undertaking almost as large as making a new game.

 

So, to me, the issue is that *the game isn't split enough*.

 

Because the *goals* of a PvP player are different from the *goals* of a PvE player... Then the game modes, and even *feel*, should be more separated.

 

I understand the argument that 'the classes should feel the same in different game modes' I just don't agree.

 

Can anyone here think of any class that uses a similar feeling build in Spvp and raids? I can't. And because of that... I simply don't care if guardian's greatsword *feels* completely different based on mode. Because I'll already be using it completely differently.

 

Also... I almost never play the same classes across both modes.

 

And because playing pvp gives you 'amulets' and auto levels you to 80... Then the argument about why the modes should be the same grows much thinner.

 

Gw2 is three separate games in the same franchise. And not three separate modes of the same game. It's time they began treating it like that.

[joneirikb.7506]

Note: The OP said: "Don't use skill split too much." he did not say "don't use skill splits!" There is a difference.

 

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The game modes are completely different. But that is because ANet made them different. Had they focused another direction, they could have made most enemies use player HP, skills, and build, stats etc. And then the game modes would have been much less different, in-fact they would be very close. This is what they did in GW1 for the most part.

 

I have always been sad about this, since it would teach us to play against different classes and weapons, give us clues to what we're playing against and how to counter them (as opposed to mostly same'ish ignorable monster skills and a few random big charge up animation dodge and kill). Avoided more HP-sponges based gameplay etc. Scaling could still apply for group content anyways. And also taught us about basic things we would need if/when we went over to PvP modes, thus lessening the separation.

 

The result of this would have been almost no need to split skills between modes at all.

 

(Man I wish they used the PVP test dummies as real world enemies, they're fun to fight against!)

 

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That said, I'm happy with ANet splitting skills (as the game is now), but as others have voiced concern: Don't overdo it. I'm ok with a skill doing 1-2 more stacks of bleed, or have +5-10 seconds cooldowns between modes. But don't change the skills so much you have to re-learn it entirely. That kind of separation makes the bridge between modes harder, and frightens people away from trying other modes.

 

(Which, from the sound of things, they're trying to avoid, so mildly positive.)

 

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@Ardid.7203 Interesting and good point, like. +1

 

@BrokenGlass.9356 Wrote out my reply before I saw yours, some similar points. Interesting read. +1