So, do you like the phantasm rework?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > I vote no, mostly because I can't do the maximum DPS rotations with it. People are getting 42k bursts and and 33k sustained DPS, and I can barely break a 30k burst after several hours of trying. After grinding the start of the fight on a golem, over and over again, food wasting away, for hours, and I still can't do it, then those numbers effectively don't exist for me. Power mesmer was a DPS loss for me this patch. "More active playstyle" effectively translates into "Unassailable by anyone who isn't super elite or uses macros".

>

> ........ You don't like the changed because you aren't as proficient with the new class yet? Seriously? You had years to perfect your chrono play, and more than 6 months to perfect your mirage play, and you've had less than 1 month to perfect your new mesmer play and you have already decided its trash because, even though the potential DPS is higher, you aren't as proficient with it yet? What kind of logic is that?

 

I wrote at length in [other places](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/405236#Comment_405236 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/405236#Comment_405236") my misgivings with the new rotations. The thing with the old chrono rotations, mirage rotations, and previous power rotations is that I could do them at competitive levels within an hour of trying. At least on a golem that doesn't fight back. Ditto for... pretty much every build on every class, sans one or two. With this most recent patch, mesmer is... different. I can't get anywhere _near_ the benchmarks, let alone do it consistently, and I cannot figure out why. I follow the written and scripted rotations to the letter, and still I can't get the magic numbers everyone else pulls. Even when I managed to squeeze out all of the phantasms without autoattacking (sans the one swing after warden, which I cannot prevent no matter how hard I try), I peak at 33k burst.

 

"I know you're terrible with the class, but just play it for 6 months" is terrible advice in view of all of this. These deficiencies aren't going to magically go away. If I can't make a measured movement toward improvement in a clinical environment, then it isn't going to just happen after lumbering around incompetently for an undetermined amount of time. My hands are only so fast, and they aren't getting faster, so ultimately _I will never get better at this class_. I'm certain I'm not the only one suffering from this problem, either.

[Daishi.6027]

Phant spam in pvp is a little lame, I might just be a purest for shatter burst... BUT IT'S STUPIDLY FUN. xD

 

For PvE it's neat <3

[K THEN.5162]

While it was definitely a good change for pvers, the phantasms unfortunately take too long to change into a clone after completing their attack, making them rather useless in pvp for shatter fodder

[Kundry.1249]

> @"K THEN.5162" said:

> While it was definitely a good change for pvers, the phantasms unfortunately take too long to change into a clone after completing their attack, making them rather useless in pvp for shatter fodder

 

But instead of merely being shatter fodder, they actually do meaningful damage now?

[Yukio blaster.9082]

I don't like it not because of the design, but because i know certainly that this rework is like having a new OP class that after a will get nerfed to the ground. so basically we gonna end up having the old phantasms dmg but for 1 time hit .

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > I vote no, mostly because I can't do the maximum DPS rotations with it. People are getting 42k bursts and and 33k sustained DPS, and I can barely break a 30k burst after several hours of trying. After grinding the start of the fight on a golem, over and over again, food wasting away, for hours, and I still can't do it, then those numbers effectively don't exist for me. Power mesmer was a DPS loss for me this patch. "More active playstyle" effectively translates into "Unassailable by anyone who isn't super elite or uses macros".

> >

> > ........ You don't like the changed because you aren't as proficient with the new class yet? Seriously? You had years to perfect your chrono play, and more than 6 months to perfect your mirage play, and you've had less than 1 month to perfect your new mesmer play and you have already decided its trash because, even though the potential DPS is higher, you aren't as proficient with it yet? What kind of logic is that?

>

> I wrote at length in [other places](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/405236#Comment_405236 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/405236#Comment_405236") my misgivings with the new rotations. The thing with the old chrono rotations, mirage rotations, and previous power rotations is that I could do them at competitive levels within an hour of trying. At least on a golem that doesn't fight back. Ditto for... pretty much every build on every class, sans one or two. With this most recent patch, mesmer is... different. I can't get anywhere _near_ the benchmarks, let alone do it consistently, and I cannot figure out why. I follow the written and scripted rotations to the letter, and still I can't get the magic numbers everyone else pulls. Even when I managed to squeeze out all of the phantasms without autoattacking (sans the one swing after warden, which I cannot prevent no matter how hard I try), I peak at 33k burst.

>

> "I know you're terrible with the class, but just play it for 6 months" is terrible advice in view of all of this. These deficiencies aren't going to magically go away. If I can't make a measured movement toward improvement in a clinical environment, then it isn't going to just happen after lumbering around incompetently for an undetermined amount of time. My hands are only so fast, and they aren't getting faster, so ultimately _I will never get better at this class_. I'm certain I'm not the only one suffering from this problem, either.

 

So, again, you complain because you couldn't master the class after a single hour of playing it. And sorry, I must have forgotten that getting your rotation correct on the golem means that you will always get it correct in every real game situation in raids, how silly of me.

 

Stop being ridiculous. No one is forcing you to like mesmer, but your reasoning for not liking it is less than non-existent

[zealex.9410]

Rework is good. Power dps mesmer is a thing.

[zealex.9410]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > > I vote no, mostly because I can't do the maximum DPS rotations with it. People are getting 42k bursts and and 33k sustained DPS, and I can barely break a 30k burst after several hours of trying. After grinding the start of the fight on a golem, over and over again, food wasting away, for hours, and I still can't do it, then those numbers effectively don't exist for me. Power mesmer was a DPS loss for me this patch. "More active playstyle" effectively translates into "Unassailable by anyone who isn't super elite or uses macros".

> > >

> > > ........ You don't like the changed because you aren't as proficient with the new class yet? Seriously? You had years to perfect your chrono play, and more than 6 months to perfect your mirage play, and you've had less than 1 month to perfect your new mesmer play and you have already decided its trash because, even though the potential DPS is higher, you aren't as proficient with it yet? What kind of logic is that?

> >

> > I wrote at length in [other places](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/405236#Comment_405236 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/405236#Comment_405236") my misgivings with the new rotations. The thing with the old chrono rotations, mirage rotations, and previous power rotations is that I could do them at competitive levels within an hour of trying. At least on a golem that doesn't fight back. Ditto for... pretty much every build on every class, sans one or two. With this most recent patch, mesmer is... different. I can't get anywhere _near_ the benchmarks, let alone do it consistently, and I cannot figure out why. I follow the written and scripted rotations to the letter, and still I can't get the magic numbers everyone else pulls. Even when I managed to squeeze out all of the phantasms without autoattacking (sans the one swing after warden, which I cannot prevent no matter how hard I try), I peak at 33k burst.

> >

> > "I know you're terrible with the class, but just play it for 6 months" is terrible advice in view of all of this. These deficiencies aren't going to magically go away. If I can't make a measured movement toward improvement in a clinical environment, then it isn't going to just happen after lumbering around incompetently for an undetermined amount of time. My hands are only so fast, and they aren't getting faster, so ultimately _I will never get better at this class_. I'm certain I'm not the only one suffering from this problem, either.

>

> So, again, you complain because you couldn't master the class after a single hour of playing it. And sorry, I must have forgotten that getting your rotation correct on the golem means that you will always get it correct in every real game situation in raids, how silly of me.

>

> Stop being ridiculous. No one is forcing you to like mesmer, but your reasoning for not liking it is less than non-existent

 

Tbh its fine to dislike it. Some ppl like more layed back gameplay with low effort and high reward. Its the same like saying i dont like ele or engie because theres to much buttons. Which is fair.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"K THEN.5162" said:

> While it was definitely a good change for pvers, the phantasms unfortunately take too long to change into a clone after completing their attack, making them rather useless in pvp for shatter fodder

 

Completely agree.

[Refia Montes.3205]

Chronomancer being reworked into our premier Phantasm spec and Mirage staying as a Clone spec is awesome. Being able to quadruple cast Swordsmen and them multiplying themselves through Chronophantasma made me enjoy Chronomancer even more. Even more with Power Chronomancer DPS. It's always been my Phantasy to fight enemies with multiple Illusions. Bringing an army to the fight in this case.

[apharma.3741]

It’s a big step in the right direction and the change makes balancing mesmer damage output a lot easier without having to consider the possibility of 3 phantasms being always out. There are tweaks that need to be done thought, some phantasms do a bit too much damage without the need to invest in damage, I’d love to see phantasms benefit from mesmer damage mods, stats, the whole lot while taking a hit to the base damage to even it all out. If you don’t take damage traits you shouldn’t do much damage regardless of the skills used.

 

Anyway we’ll have to see what this March patch does, I have a feeling we will see phantasm damage nerfs and a few things. We may not see too many changes either as it’s a skill split patch so where a traits functionality needs adjusting then it will most likely be put off.

[zealex.9410]

Since they are rolling a patch every month/ month and a half nowdays id like then to take a patch off of mesmer to see how things are and make the right nerfs.

 

Then again its aney so fuck me right xd

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> So, again, you complain because you couldn't master the class after a single hour of playing it. And sorry, I must have forgotten that getting your rotation correct on the golem means that you will always get it correct in every real game situation in raids, how silly of me.

>

> Stop being ridiculous. No one is forcing you to like mesmer, but your reasoning for not liking it is less than non-existent

 

Try eight hours on the golem alone, spread out among a few days. Your rant here doesn't make sense: my point is that if I can't do the burst damage in a clinical environment, then I sure am not going to do it in a real situation. Somehow you've translated this into me equivocating the two, even though my whole point is that they aren't. Just to be really clear, here are the two places in the two posts where I bring up this exact fact

 

>Let alone maintaining this level of perfection through for several minutes of playing. Let alone in an actual battle, and not on a static golem where you don't have to worry about boss mechanics.

 

> If I can't make a measured movement toward improvement in a clinical environment, then it isn't going to just happen after lumbering around incompetently for an undetermined amount of time.

 

The problem is that **you** are the one who's trying to force me to like the mesmer. I posted up my complaints, and instead of letting to each their own, you've taken this as an opportunity to bitch about my situation, while not even reading my posts. Because if you did read the posts, you would've seen that I wrote "several hours" in the first place. You have decided that it is not O.K. for me to dislike the new phantasms, that I am not allowed to have an opinion because I haven't grinded with the profession for several months, and you've come to this decision before even trying to understand why I say what I do or bothering to address my points. I would have to say the fact that I can't get the class to work right is a pretty existent and legitimate reason for not liking it.

 

You, sir, should be ashamed.

[ReaverKane.7598]

Yes!

The Phantasms rework was perfect for the class.

The confusion rework was a bit poor for PvE Mesmers, but they improved it a bit by trading confusion for torment in a few skills, which made the class more viable again.

 

So basically;

Support Chrono is now as good or better for quickness and alacrity uptimes.

Power Chrono/Mesmer is now very viable.

Condi Mirage is still one of the strongest classes.

 

So pretty much the change opened up the class to more viable builds and options, which is very positive.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

It works way better than before. And it opens a few new possibilities, since phantasms are also delayted clones. So you can time your shatters as clones are produced. A total 3 for one benefit.

 

It just needs a bit toning down.

[Agent Noun.7350]

It's remarkably similar to my "radical redesign" suggestion in [this thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/5660/maybe-its-time-to-redesign-phantasms-lets-brainstorm-ideas/p1 "this thread") so yeah, I like it a lot.

 

(I want to jokingly take credit but I'm well aware that game development and iteration takes way, way too long for my suggestion to have had any sort of impact at all, and also that I'm far from the only person to make a similar suggestion. I'll just settle for "great minds think alike" or something.)

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > So, again, you complain because you couldn't master the class after a single hour of playing it. And sorry, I must have forgotten that getting your rotation correct on the golem means that you will always get it correct in every real game situation in raids, how silly of me.

> >

> > Stop being ridiculous. No one is forcing you to like mesmer, but your reasoning for not liking it is less than non-existent

>

> Try eight hours on the golem alone, spread out among a few days. Your rant here doesn't make sense: my point is that if I can't do the burst damage in a clinical environment, then I sure am not going to do it in a real situation. Somehow you've translated this into me equivocating the two, even though my whole point is that they aren't. Just to be really clear, here are the two places in the two posts where I bring up this exact fact

>

> >Let alone maintaining this level of perfection through for several minutes of playing. Let alone in an actual battle, and not on a static golem where you don't have to worry about boss mechanics.

>

> > If I can't make a measured movement toward improvement in a clinical environment, then it isn't going to just happen after lumbering around incompetently for an undetermined amount of time.

>

> The problem is that **you** are the one who's trying to force me to like the mesmer. I posted up my complaints, and instead of letting to each their own, you've taken this as an opportunity to kitten about my situation, while not even reading my posts. Because if you did read the posts, you would've seen that I wrote "several hours" in the first place. You have decided that it is not O.K. for me to dislike the new phantasms, that I am not allowed to have an opinion because I haven't grinded with the profession for several months, and you've come to this decision before even trying to understand why I say what I do or bothering to address my points. I would have to say the fact that I can't get the class to work right is a pretty existent and legitimate reason for not liking it.

>

> You, sir, should be ashamed.

 

I'm not trying to force you to like anything. I'm trying to get you to see that you don't have a valid reason to not like the redesign.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > I vote no, mostly because I can't do the maximum DPS rotations with it. People are getting 42k bursts and and 33k sustained DPS, and I can barely break a 30k burst after several hours of trying. After grinding the start of the fight on a golem, over and over again, food wasting away, for hours, and I still can't do it, then those numbers effectively don't exist for me. Power mesmer was a DPS loss for me this patch. "More active playstyle" effectively translates into "Unassailable by anyone who isn't super elite or uses macros".

> >

> > ........ You don't like the changed because you aren't as proficient with the new class yet? Seriously? You had years to perfect your chrono play, and more than 6 months to perfect your mirage play, and you've had less than 1 month to perfect your new mesmer play and you have already decided its trash because, even though the potential DPS is higher, you aren't as proficient with it yet? What kind of logic is that?

>

> I wrote at length in [other places](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/405236#Comment_405236 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/405236#Comment_405236") my misgivings with the new rotations. The thing with the old chrono rotations, mirage rotations, and previous power rotations is that I could do them at competitive levels within an hour of trying. At least on a golem that doesn't fight back. Ditto for... pretty much every build on every class, sans one or two. With this most recent patch, mesmer is... different. I can't get anywhere _near_ the benchmarks, let alone do it consistently, and I cannot figure out why. I follow the written and scripted rotations to the letter, and still I can't get the magic numbers everyone else pulls. Even when I managed to squeeze out all of the phantasms without autoattacking (sans the one swing after warden, which I cannot prevent no matter how hard I try), I peak at 33k burst.

>

> "I know you're terrible with the class, but just play it for 6 months" is terrible advice in view of all of this. These deficiencies aren't going to magically go away. If I can't make a measured movement toward improvement in a clinical environment, then it isn't going to just happen after lumbering around incompetently for an undetermined amount of time. My hands are only so fast, and they aren't getting faster, so ultimately _I will never get better at this class_. I'm certain I'm not the only one suffering from this problem, either.

 

Your entire reason for not liking this change is because it makes what was arguably the most boring and simplistic DPS builds in the game take more than a few hours to be good with.

 

What of all the advantages it has brought in PvP, WvW (ok less so here) and PvE? Before mesmers never shattered, now they can freely shatter and use the effects (blind on shatter, invuln to block stuff, CC on diversion) if they like without worrying about a prolonged period of poor damage or support. Now mirage can actually utilise phantasms for a damage increase in the IH build without worrying about it being a damage loss.

 

I feel you haven’t properly and objectively weighed up the advantages vs disadvantages. Maybe you should be asking for advise to see if there’s something really obvious you’re missing out of the rotation or doing wrong, it could be something very simple that you haven’t noticed like when my friend was always 10k under benchmark till I pointed out she didn’t have any vulnerability on the golem, not saying that is your issue btw, just an example of small things causing big problems.

[Curunen.8729]

Resounding YES! :)

 

Also I love the new iMage - sure it could do with a cooldown reduction and maybe phantasm's skill cast time reduction but it's really nice in both animation and effect. For example I'd like to be able to use it as a consistent interrupt on opponents ressing downed or stomping, but the phantasm takes too long to use its attack to make it reliable enough for this (I suppose no worse than Wolf F2 fear on ranger, but still...).

[Vieux P.1238]

No... because except berserker, most of the phantasm are slow & don't get to deliver there damage. So there just there as clone generators & keeping enemies confused on

witch one you are.

[mortrialus.3062]

I dig it for the most part. There are some oddities though. I still find the fact that we can't shatter phantasms really awkward. It makes setting up combos kind of a pain. I find myself wishing it could just shatter the phantasm immediately a lot of times. Specifically the Focus and Staff phantasms. I don't like the Focus phantasm. It ruins everything that was good about it's previous incarnation. It destroyed projectiles, could be traited to reflect them, and would spawn get in the opponent's face to do it's attack which made it excellent for cleaving enemies.

 

Now it's ranged which makes it's ability to destroy and reflect projectiles much less useful since chances are it'll be positioned in a completely useless spot for defensive purposes. Not because it's ranged you can't just spawn it in a pack of enemies. Now you absolutely need to pull enemies into it. Before you could just spawn it into a group of enemies, allowing you to save temporal curtain for enemies moving out of position or chaining more projectile reflection. The sword is better cleaving weapon at this point and it's better single target. Overall I don't like anything they did to the focus phantasm.

 

I also find the staff one just odd. Not bad, in fact it's quite good. Odd. It's so powerful as a power phantasm when the staff has always been more condition orientated. I just in general miss condition damage's ability to succeed in pvp. I never agreed with how many players just bitch endlessly about condition damage in PvP. It should be a valid part of PvP just like power. Condition mesmers would be more prevalent if the most useful if the best weapon in PvP for a condition damage build had a phantasm that was great for condition damage builds.

[Purecura.1795]

I like the new rework. Def feels ANET is moving in the right direction for the Mesmer profession and it’s “Illusionary Duelist” theme.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I dig it for the most part. There are some oddities though. I still find the fact that we can't shatter phantasms really awkward. It makes setting up combos kind of a pain. I find myself wishing it could just shatter the phantasm immediately a lot of times. Specifically the Focus and Staff phantasms. I don't like the Focus phantasm. It ruins everything that was good about it's previous incarnation. It destroyed projectiles, could be traited to reflect them, and would spawn get in the opponent's face to do it's attack which made it excellent for cleaving enemies.

>

> Now it's ranged which makes it's ability to destroy and reflect projectiles much less useful since chances are it'll be positioned in a completely useless spot for defensive purposes. Not because it's ranged you can't just spawn it in a pack of enemies. Now you absolutely need to pull enemies into it. Before you could just spawn it into a group of enemies, allowing you to save temporal curtain for enemies moving out of position or chaining more projectile reflection. The sword is better cleaving weapon at this point and it's better single target. Overall I don't like anything they did to the focus phantasm.

>

> I also find the staff one just odd. Not bad, in fact it's quite good. Odd. It's so powerful as a power phantasm when the staff has always been more condition orientated. I just in general miss condition damage's ability to succeed in pvp. I never agreed with how many players just kitten endlessly about condition damage in PvP. It should be a valid part of PvP just like power. Condition mesmers would be more prevalent if the most useful if the best weapon in PvP for a condition damage build had a phantasm that was great for condition damage builds.

 

I learned long ago staff isn’t a condi weapon. It’s more a support/defensive weapon because it tries to do everything at once. But let me tell you, I don’t go into WvW without it. Phase retreat plus jaunt its life now.

[Refia Montes.3205]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I dig it for the most part. There are some oddities though. I still find the fact that we can't shatter phantasms really awkward. It makes setting up combos kind of a pain. I find myself wishing it could just shatter the phantasm immediately a lot of times. Specifically the Focus and Staff phantasms. I don't like the Focus phantasm. It ruins everything that was good about it's previous incarnation. It destroyed projectiles, could be traited to reflect them, and would spawn get in the opponent's face to do it's attack which made it excellent for cleaving enemies.

>

> Now it's ranged which makes it's ability to destroy and reflect projectiles much less useful since chances are it'll be positioned in a completely useless spot for defensive purposes. Not because it's ranged you can't just spawn it in a pack of enemies. Now you absolutely need to pull enemies into it. Before you could just spawn it into a group of enemies, allowing you to save temporal curtain for enemies moving out of position or chaining more projectile reflection. The sword is better cleaving weapon at this point and it's better single target. Overall I don't like anything they did to the focus phantasm.

>

> I also find the staff one just odd. Not bad, in fact it's quite good. Odd. It's so powerful as a power phantasm when the staff has always been more condition orientated. I just in general miss condition damage's ability to succeed in pvp. I never agreed with how many players just kitten endlessly about condition damage in PvP. It should be a valid part of PvP just like power. Condition mesmers would be more prevalent if the most useful if the best weapon in PvP for a condition damage build had a phantasm that was great for condition damage builds.

 

Well Warlock was never Condi focused even before the rework. I think Staff is more of a utility weapon more than a Condi weapon though.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > I dig it for the most part. There are some oddities though. I still find the fact that we can't shatter phantasms really awkward. It makes setting up combos kind of a pain. I find myself wishing it could just shatter the phantasm immediately a lot of times. Specifically the Focus and Staff phantasms. I don't like the Focus phantasm. It ruins everything that was good about it's previous incarnation. It destroyed projectiles, could be traited to reflect them, and would spawn get in the opponent's face to do it's attack which made it excellent for cleaving enemies.

> >

> > Now it's ranged which makes it's ability to destroy and reflect projectiles much less useful since chances are it'll be positioned in a completely useless spot for defensive purposes. Not because it's ranged you can't just spawn it in a pack of enemies. Now you absolutely need to pull enemies into it. Before you could just spawn it into a group of enemies, allowing you to save temporal curtain for enemies moving out of position or chaining more projectile reflection. The sword is better cleaving weapon at this point and it's better single target. Overall I don't like anything they did to the focus phantasm.

> >

> > I also find the staff one just odd. Not bad, in fact it's quite good. Odd. It's so powerful as a power phantasm when the staff has always been more condition orientated. I just in general miss condition damage's ability to succeed in pvp. I never agreed with how many players just kitten endlessly about condition damage in PvP. It should be a valid part of PvP just like power. Condition mesmers would be more prevalent if the most useful if the best weapon in PvP for a condition damage build had a phantasm that was great for condition damage builds.

>

> I learned long ago staff isn’t a condi weapon. It’s more a support/defensive weapon because it tries to do everything at once. But let me tell you, I don’t go into WvW without it. **Phase retreat plus jaunt its life now.**

 

QFT.

 

In any case Staff is awesome in hybrid, and the phantasms synergise with this nicely.