Your thoughts on the Holy Trinity abscence

[Ubi.4136]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > @"Deepcuts.9740" said:

> > Even if in the end this is just a fantasy game, it still relates to real combat somehow. And I like just a little bit of realism even in such a game.

> > In the trenches, you got stabbed or shoot? You call MEDIC!

> > You need to breach the enemy line? You send a TANK!

> > You need to reign hell on an enemy position? You need a lot of firepower.

> > You need to be able to do all the above 3? You need some logistics and support.

> > The feeling that one person can do all of those things is good if you are Marvel and you are creating a superhero.

> > So yes, I am all for better trinity than the one we currently have. I miss the feeling that what I do counts for the team and what each member of my team does, helps me accomplish what I desire. I dislike the mentality of "everyone can do everything".

>

> **There is a difference between being able to do everything and being able to do everything at the same time**.

 

This "should" be true, but it isn't in GW2. Just go to wvw and watch spellbreakers. They are literally tanking, dps'ing and doing CC all at the same time. This is because the game allows for it when they should be forced to give up 1 thing to be better at another. The reason is because the lack of trinity in a game where they left trinity elements in. Even the solo warrior builds that can tank 3-10 enemies at a time, yet have the same burst as full glass builds. Don't forget, they can just disengage and run away from most builds out there too.

 

There really isn't a fix for the problems they created by starting with the "no trinity" idea, yet left armor class weights in, which is rooted in the trinity.

Then, they added content that doesn't "mandate" a trinity, but was designed to be played that way.

And, they added a dedicated healing role to make content more dynamic - mechanics requiring a dedicated healer.

Then, they allowed toughness, even 10 point difference, to be an aggro mechanic for some bosses, essentially reestablishing a tanking role.

 

I think they realized that they are limited by just how much and how good content can be without dedicated aggro and healing.

Open world fights are literally dependent on large blobs of players, who stack solely because they expect players to be downed and res each other.

That isn't "difficulty", that is just poor design. Most classes don't have endless stability, dodges etc. that a lot of open world fights are turning into.

There is a reason a lot of people would prefer a true healing and tanking spec, and it isn't because of a lack of skill. There are a ton of poorly designed fights in GW2 that could be fixed by the addition of those dedicated trinity elements.

 

 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > @"Deepcuts.9740" said:

> > > Even if in the end this is just a fantasy game, it still relates to real combat somehow. And I like just a little bit of realism even in such a game.

> > > In the trenches, you got stabbed or shoot? You call MEDIC!

> > > You need to breach the enemy line? You send a TANK!

> > > You need to reign hell on an enemy position? You need a lot of firepower.

> > > You need to be able to do all the above 3? You need some logistics and support.

> > > The feeling that one person can do all of those things is good if you are Marvel and you are creating a superhero.

> > > So yes, I am all for better trinity than the one we currently have. I miss the feeling that what I do counts for the team and what each member of my team does, helps me accomplish what I desire. I dislike the mentality of "everyone can do everything".

> >

> > **There is a difference between being able to do everything and being able to do everything at the same time**.

>

> This "should" be true, but it isn't in GW2. Just go to wvw and watch spellbreakers. They are literally tanking, dps'ing and doing CC all at the same time. This is because the game allows for it when they should be forced to give up 1 thing to be better at another. The reason is because the lack of trinity in a game where they left trinity elements in. Even the solo warrior builds that can tank 3-10 enemies at a time, yet have the same burst as full glass builds. Don't forget, they can just disengage and run away from most builds out there too.

>

> There really isn't a fix for the problems they created by starting with the "no trinity" idea, yet left armor class weights in, which is rooted in the trinity.

> Then, they added content that doesn't "mandate" a trinity, but was designed to be played that way.

> And, they added a dedicated healing role to make content more dynamic - mechanics requiring a dedicated healer.

> Then, they allowed toughness, even 10 point difference, to be an aggro mechanic for some bosses, essentially reestablishing a tanking role.

>

> I think they realized that they are limited by just how much and how good content can be without dedicated aggro and healing.

> Open world fights are literally dependent on large blobs of players, who stack solely because they expect players to be downed and res each other.

> That isn't "difficulty", that is just poor design. Most classes don't have endless stability, dodges etc. that a lot of open world fights are turning into.

> There is a reason a lot of people would prefer a true healing and tanking spec, and it isn't because of a lack of skill. There are a ton of poorly designed fights in GW2 that could be fixed by the addition of those dedicated trinity elements.

>

>

>

 

I actually like the way the non-trinity system plays out in open world. It fits in nicely with the seamless way in which players are able to benefit nearby allies with area boons, heals, revives, and combo fields. Yeah, it's usually easy to zerg if you need to, which is good for less-skilled players who aren't necessarily looking for a raid-level challenge every time they log into the game. But you can also make it a bit more of a challenge and take down many bosses either solo or with a small group. I teamed up with a chronomancer the other day and we did some 2-man legendary bounties in PoF. I'm also able to carry squads on damage by myself against many bosses if it comes to it. Massive zerg is not the only way to do open world in this game! Individual players can easily have a major impact, even if it mostly comes down to personal survival and damage output.

 

It's fun for me in open world, but less so in instanced PvE where you tend to be better organized. I prefer the trinity model there.

[Ashen.2907]

I find that having to track/manage:

 

Personal DPS rotation.

Appropriately timed self heals

Appropriately timed invulnerability frames

Appropriately timed debuffs

Appropriately timed group buffs

Appropriately timed CC

Etc.

 

To be more compelling than traditional trinity play. Trinity play, in part, exists as a form or simplification of fombat dynamics. It is the watered down gameplay.

[titje.2745]

i didn’t know what the holy trinity means but after reading some posts i understand. yes the one from WoW is bad. as dps half hour in queue.

 

in guildwars 2 it can be nice. but i hate it to have aggro. in silverwastes all stuped mobs attack always me when i want to loot a chest. a gm told me that i have to move past the chest and walk back so others get the aggro. but don’t work. they still attack me. and then a condition on me for 16+ seconds and not be able to mount. hope it get fixed. oke enough.

 

about the holy trinity. i like to be a healer and be supportive for my team. first i made a tempest magi ele. for wvsw and open world events.

 

then i geared a maklain ventati revenant. for wvsw.

 

and now i play mostly a druid with marshal gear. i didn’t make gear of meta because i am not a raider. raiding is nice but not always. i play more games then only guildwars 2. marshal gear is fine. i had a mesmer condi mirage and wasn’t able to do more then 18k dps with the gear what meta listed. noob. so i like being a healer. healer is easy. and fun for me.

[XenoSpyro.1780]

Maybe if there was at least some traces of trinity in this game, everything wouldn't be so damagecreep. Make Toughness actually 1:1 useful against power + give Vita some reduced damage-Condi duration, and maybe these stats will actually be.. I don't know.. Good?

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > I have to ask, just how many games have you actually seen? Because, quite frankly, I can't think of a one that I've played in the last 20 years that matches your description. I mean, there's a trinity system in ESO too, but the healer isn't just standing there throwing heals. It never happened that way in Aion, where I actually played an "off healer", chanter instead of cleric, I didn't have any cleanses for DoTs, but I wasn't standing at the back, I was on the front line, beating on the mobs that needed beaten on. It wasn't that way in swtor, if it had been, there'd be a lot of party wipes. It wasn't that way in Rappelz, even, and other than one skill, their dps really sucked. What you seem to be missing is a thing called "healer aggro", that happens when a healer throws a heal on a toon that has all the hate. If you just stand there, throwing heals, you're dead, and in some situations, so is the party. So it would seem to me that, based on your posts, you're talking from a limited experience with MMOs, at least healing in MMOs.

> >

> > Enough kitten asian mmos + videos of various game play videos to know fixed trinity roles sucks. A much better system is gw2's one where a single class can fill different roles + able to tweak your build so that you can customise the varying degree to which you can dps, self sustain healing, heal support, boon support, CC support, stun break/block support based on different situations. Different situations being a particular fight/mechanics itself, player competence, party composition availability. This is possible because the system allows it and it doesn't cost an arm or a leg to respec and change gears.

> >

> > Take this aion video for example..

The guy just stand there away from the boss and heals pretty much. No need to time mass rez for downed players, no need to time party stun breaks, no need help CC boss like druids do.

>

> Two things jump to mind immediately, the "enough Asian MMOs and videos", and "pretty much". I played Aion from the second closed beta until just before it went F2P, although my sub was still active when it went F2P, and there were literally no parties that I was in where the healer just stood in one spot. In most instances, it's impossible to do so, due to AoEs, or the fact that the instance requires you to move constantly from room to room. Let's not cover PvP either, otherwise your youtube experience will really just fall to the wayside.

>

> I don't miss the trinity here, it lets me get faster queues when I hit a group, as in, the last time I used the LFG panel, I didn't wait for a group at all. In a trinity situation, I've spent hours in the queue to never get a pop. ESO is my last example of that, but my favorite example is in swtor, where my guild leader and I spent 45 minutes waiting for a queue to pop on DPS toons, but as soon as we switched to his healer and my tank, we popped instantly. I don't miss that, not one little bit. However, I have several years worth of experience in a variety of Trinity having MMOs, and that experience is enough to know that a healer that's just standing there throwing heals is doing it wrong. Note: That's several years in each one I've played, and none of that experience is from youtube videos, but actually in these games, seeing what can go sideways, and how it can.

 

You bring up a good point I forget about the non-trinity system for GW2. You don't have to wait for tanks and healers to fill queues which takes forever. When I play FF14 on my MCH, it can take upwards from 5 minutes to 25 minutes to actually start the run while in GW2 it is almost instant because there is no trinity system. The trinity also forces people to take roles whether they like it or not just to get faster queues. I have lost count of the number of people who took up tanking and healing just to skip queues when in reality they said they wanted to play on their favourite dps character.

 

This is one of the strengths of the non-trinity system that trinity systems suffer from which is why I am glad it is gone from GW2. Waiting 5 minutes to an hour just for content is not fun, and people saying why not play healer or tank just show why the trinity system is bad. You shouldn't be forced to switch just because it's faster.

[Svarty.8019]

I think this is only a failed experiment because they introduced new styles of play that weren't envisioned when the combat system was developed, in particular RAIDING.

[Zola.6197]

As much as I love playing healers, I think this game is set up in a really wonderful way that allows everyone to more or less take care of themselves. You have the ability to solo PvE and story if you desire.

 

If you want to do dungeons, raids, wvw, team PvP, etc there are plenty of classes with support abilities to meet the basic need of “supporting” your team. Guardians, water ele, druid elite rangers, even engineers all have great skill sets for those who want to protect and/or heal allies. Druid is probably the closest thing this game offers to a “healer.”

 

I don’t want to feel like I’m required to party up if I just wanna explore the maps and play the story, so personally I like that every class is mostly self reliant when it comes to basic survivability.

 

 

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

>

> > Two things jump to mind immediately, the "enough Asian MMOs and videos", and "pretty much". I played Aion from the second closed beta until just before it went F2P, although my sub was still active when it went F2P, and there were literally no parties that I was in where the healer just stood in one spot. In most instances, it's impossible to do so, due to AoEs, or the fact that the instance requires you to move constantly from room to room. Let's not cover PvP either, otherwise your youtube experience will really just fall to the wayside.

> >

> > I don't miss the trinity here, it lets me get faster queues when I hit a group, as in, the last time I used the LFG panel, I didn't wait for a group at all. In a trinity situation, I've spent hours in the queue to never get a pop. ESO is my last example of that, but my favorite example is in swtor, where my guild leader and I spent 45 minutes waiting for a queue to pop on DPS toons, but as soon as we switched to his healer and my tank, we popped instantly. I don't miss that, not one little bit. However, I have several years worth of experience in a variety of Trinity having MMOs, and that experience is enough to know that a healer that's just standing there throwing heals is doing it wrong. Note: That's several years in each one I've played, and none of that experience is from youtube videos, but actually in these games, seeing what can go sideways, and how it can.

>

> In another words pretty much just need to stand there and heal. Do they need to help CC boss? nope... Do they need to combo finish to aoe heal? Nope... Do they need to time mass rez with nature spirit? nope... do they need to help block projectiles? nope....

 

It's astounding how much you want to hold on to that belief. However, since you sincerely seem to believe that it's so easy, you should, perhaps, try to roll a healer in a trinity based MMO, and see how long until you're completely blocked by players from getting into group content for failing as a healer. It won't take long.

 

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > > I have to ask, just how many games have you actually seen? Because, quite frankly, I can't think of a one that I've played in the last 20 years that matches your description. I mean, there's a trinity system in ESO too, but the healer isn't just standing there throwing heals. It never happened that way in Aion, where I actually played an "off healer", chanter instead of cleric, I didn't have any cleanses for DoTs, but I wasn't standing at the back, I was on the front line, beating on the mobs that needed beaten on. It wasn't that way in swtor, if it had been, there'd be a lot of party wipes. It wasn't that way in Rappelz, even, and other than one skill, their dps really sucked. What you seem to be missing is a thing called "healer aggro", that happens when a healer throws a heal on a toon that has all the hate. If you just stand there, throwing heals, you're dead, and in some situations, so is the party. So it would seem to me that, based on your posts, you're talking from a limited experience with MMOs, at least healing in MMOs.

> > >

> > > Enough kitten asian mmos + videos of various game play videos to know fixed trinity roles sucks. A much better system is gw2's one where a single class can fill different roles + able to tweak your build so that you can customise the varying degree to which you can dps, self sustain healing, heal support, boon support, CC support, stun break/block support based on different situations. Different situations being a particular fight/mechanics itself, player competence, party composition availability. This is possible because the system allows it and it doesn't cost an arm or a leg to respec and change gears.

> > >

> > > Take this aion video for example..

The guy just stand there away from the boss and heals pretty much. No need to time mass rez for downed players, no need to time party stun breaks, no need help CC boss like druids do.

> >

> > Two things jump to mind immediately, the "enough Asian MMOs and videos", and "pretty much". I played Aion from the second closed beta until just before it went F2P, although my sub was still active when it went F2P, and there were literally no parties that I was in where the healer just stood in one spot. In most instances, it's impossible to do so, due to AoEs, or the fact that the instance requires you to move constantly from room to room. Let's not cover PvP either, otherwise your youtube experience will really just fall to the wayside.

> >

> > I don't miss the trinity here, it lets me get faster queues when I hit a group, as in, the last time I used the LFG panel, I didn't wait for a group at all. In a trinity situation, I've spent hours in the queue to never get a pop. ESO is my last example of that, but my favorite example is in swtor, where my guild leader and I spent 45 minutes waiting for a queue to pop on DPS toons, but as soon as we switched to his healer and my tank, we popped instantly. I don't miss that, not one little bit. However, I have several years worth of experience in a variety of Trinity having MMOs, and that experience is enough to know that a healer that's just standing there throwing heals is doing it wrong. Note: That's several years in each one I've played, and none of that experience is from youtube videos, but actually in these games, seeing what can go sideways, and how it can.

>

> That's a definite advantage of the non-trinity system. The game is designed without healers and tanks in mind, so literally any group composition will do. Even where certain roles are preferred, it never approaches the level of a trinity game in forcing group composition. Unfortunately, I don't think it actually improves instanced PvE gameplay. I've just never been impressed by GW2 instanced PvE. It feels like it's missing dimensions that trinity games I've played create with these divisions between roles.

>

> Consider that even T4 challenge mode bosses can be done solo in this game. This is a direct result of the non-trinity design. With no tanking there are no tanks, which means you must allow in the design for "DPS" builds to survive. There are no healers either, so they have to not only be able to survive the damage, but be able to heal it back themselves. In high end content in trinity games, there is absolutely no way a DPS build can survive on their own. Neither can the tank or healer. They function as a unit and the content is far tougher than any one player can handle on their own. I feel the non-trinity design ties the developer's hands and forces them to water down the instanced PvE encounters in this game.

 

I've actually seen solo DPS on bosses in trinity MMOs, and I've actually done solo bosses as a tank, although it wasn't my intent, in one instance. We were doing a Flash Point in swtor on a 4 man team, and the boss one shotted everyone but my tank. Instead of respawning right away to get back, they figured, as I did, that he'd get me next, so they'd just wait. I took that boss from 75% to 0, and at about 50%, the party was cheerleading me on in Team Speak. I wouldn't want to do it again, but it's nice to know that I could, if I had to. In DDO I solo a lot of "group" content. I'd been around for about 7 years there before snowflake melting got me into trouble on their forum, but I used to laugh at all the "this class can't do xxxx", especially if I'd just logged out after doing what they said couldn't be done. It used to happen a lot. I don't think I'm any where near that here, yet, but I think I could probably get there, and that yes, the way the game is built, it may actually be easier.

 

As far as how instanced PvE goes, my experiences so far are pretty typical for PuGs, so I can't say what an organized group is really like, as I've only really been in one, and that was a Teq group, so open world.

 

[squallaus.8321]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

 

>

> It's astounding how much you want to hold on to that belief. However, since you sincerely seem to believe that it's so easy, you should, perhaps, try to roll a healer in a trinity based MMO, and see how long until you're completely blocked by players from getting into group content for failing as a healer. It won't take long.

>

 

In another words you don't know what healers do in Aion. You just knew them as good healer or bad healer through out your game play there. I don't play druid in gw2 but I've already outline what they do and had described how their gameplay is active.

 

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

>

> As far as how instanced PvE goes, my experiences so far are pretty typical for PuGs, so I can't say what an organized group is really like, as I've only really been in one, and that was a Teq group, so open world.

>

 

You should start. Then you will see how fun it is to create your own squad and help manage a squad so they cover the different builds/roles and having enough heals CC etc for particular encounters. This is only possible in a game that does not enforce a trinity system but you can opt for trinity roles if so desired.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

 

> My opinion is that WoW simply had far better instanced PvE than GW2 has ever displayed at any point in time. This game has much better open world play, however. And I think a lot of that has to do with this particular design decision. I think it lends itself well to less organized play, but lacks depth once you get into the area of raids and other high end PvE that require organization. The lack of a trinity removes dimensions of play that I personally found compelling and contributed to the challenge and overall better gameplay in WoW in this specific context.

 

Well I mean, how difficult do you want raids to be? Raids that go on for several hours is probably not a good idea. Raid content in gw2 can look pretty trivial for groups of veteran players. But if you were to build a group from entirely new players it will take you atleast several months even if you knew what builds to use etc a priori. So I think having content with varying levels of difficulty is a good idea. As in some raids will be easier some will be harder. And Anet can build on that philosophy over time. Same with fractals.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> This "should" be true, but it isn't in GW2. Just go to wvw and watch spellbreakers. They are literally tanking, dps'ing and doing CC all at the same time. This is because the game allows for it when they should be forced to give up 1 thing to be better at another. The reason is because the lack of trinity in a game where they left trinity elements in. Even the solo warrior builds that can tank 3-10 enemies at a time, yet have the same burst as full glass builds. Don't forget, they can just disengage and run away from most builds out there too.

>

> There really isn't a fix for the problems they created by starting with the "no trinity" idea, yet left armor class weights in, which is rooted in the trinity.

> Then, they added content that doesn't "mandate" a trinity, but was designed to be played that way.

> And, they added a dedicated healing role to make content more dynamic - mechanics requiring a dedicated healer.

> Then, they allowed toughness, even 10 point difference, to be an aggro mechanic for some bosses, essentially reestablishing a tanking role.

>

> I think they realized that they are limited by just how much and how good content can be without dedicated aggro and healing.

> Open world fights are literally dependent on large blobs of players, who stack solely because they expect players to be downed and res each other.

> That isn't "difficulty", that is just poor design. Most classes don't have endless stability, dodges etc. that a lot of open world fights are turning into.

> There is a reason a lot of people would prefer a true healing and tanking spec, and it isn't because of a lack of skill. There are a ton of poorly designed fights in GW2 that could be fixed by the addition of those dedicated trinity elements.

>

>

>

 

If you watch enough Cake Walk videos on youtube you might think that's typically how warriors are. But you are in fact looking at a very good warrior player using a build that has a tonne of resistance to counter condi damage, and uses stun breaks to increase toughness to tank level for brief periods of time, has 2 endure pain 1 from trait 1 from util, using zerker/maurader gear for damage, and runes of durability for protection up time. The only way to kill something like this is be a really good player yourself and use power build like power shatter mirage or power chrono shatter build. The idea for that warrior build is win by sustain, and its a very sustainly build. Need high burst damage to counter it.

You may find warriors are overtuned atm, but in the past they've also had period where they were considered free kills until resistance was introduced. So its really just a balancing issue that anet need to work on, not necessary a bad game design philosophy.

 

Before the introduction of Raids, gw2 pve content was mostly not that difficult hence the existence of DPS meta back then even though healers and boon support did in fact exist back then. It is the difficulty and quality of the content that dictates whether you need dedicated roles to progress. The content is not necessarily better just because you have dedicated roles. And dedicated roles doesn't have to be strictly trinity roles as long as you have all your basis covered being 1) players need to be able to stay up, do I need healer for this fight? 2) debuff boss with boon strip and vuln 3) need to buff squad with various buffs for high damage to kill boss in reasonable amount of time. Do we have all the major buffs covered? 4) does the squad have enough CC? 5) backup plan if large number of people go down. Different classes can fill just one or more roles and as a team you have all your basis covered. But the point is, you are free to customise your team and not feel that you are forced into a role.

 

Open world on the other hand, is mostly just casual content since the introduction of the megaserver. Not necessarily a bad thing because it lets more casual players just relax in game and there are still some opportunities for solo content with some champions and bounties.

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

>

> >

> > It's astounding how much you want to hold on to that belief. However, since you sincerely seem to believe that it's so easy, you should, perhaps, try to roll a healer in a trinity based MMO, and see how long until you're completely blocked by players from getting into group content for failing as a healer. It won't take long.

> >

>

> In another words you don't know what healers do in Aion. You just knew them as good healer or bad healer through out your game play there. I don't play druid in gw2 but I've already outline what they do and had described how their gameplay is active.

>

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> >

> > As far as how instanced PvE goes, my experiences so far are pretty typical for PuGs, so I can't say what an organized group is really like, as I've only really been in one, and that was a Teq group, so open world.

> >

>

> You should start. Then you will see how fun it is to create your own squad and help manage a squad so they cover the different builds/roles and having enough heals CC etc for particular encounters. This is only possible in a game that does not enforce a trinity system but you can opt for trinity roles if so desired.

 

You know, the last thing I really need? Someone who's primary education about MMOs comes from youtube trying to educate me about how MMOs work. I have to wonder, for example, how many hours of footage hit the cutting room floor for the video "evidence" you provided? Do you know? I know that I have tanked, healed, albeit by default, since I was the only one in the party with any heals, and my preferred role on that character was dps, and of course dps'd in more hours of content in Aion than, based on your posts, you've played games. There's nothing you can teach me, I'm not even sure, based on your responses here, that I'd take you at your word if you offered advice for this game, I can't trust you.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

 

>

> You know, the last thing I really need? Someone who's primary education about MMOs comes from youtube trying to educate me about how MMOs work. I have to wonder, for example, how many hours of footage hit the cutting room floor for the video "evidence" you provided? Do you know? I know that I have tanked, healed, albeit by default, since I was the only one in the party with any heals, and my preferred role on that character was dps, and of course dps'd in more hours of content in Aion than, based on your posts, you've played games. There's nothing you can teach me, I'm not even sure, based on your responses here, that I'd take you at your word if you offered advice for this game, I can't trust you.

 

i'll repeat what I said:

"In another words you don't know what healers do in Aion. You just knew them as good healer or bad healer through out your game play there. I don't play druid in gw2 but I've already outline what they do and had described how their gameplay is active."

 

You can either start to describe how healers in aions are more active than druids in gw2 during combat or just go home.

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

>

> >

> > You know, the last thing I really need? Someone who's primary education about MMOs comes from youtube trying to educate me about how MMOs work. I have to wonder, for example, how many hours of footage hit the cutting room floor for the video "evidence" you provided? Do you know? I know that I have tanked, healed, albeit by default, since I was the only one in the party with any heals, and my preferred role on that character was dps, and of course dps'd in more hours of content in Aion than, based on your posts, you've played games. There's nothing you can teach me, I'm not even sure, based on your responses here, that I'd take you at your word if you offered advice for this game, I can't trust you.

>

> i'll repeat what I said:

> "In another words you don't know what healers do in Aion. You just knew them as good healer or bad healer through out your game play there. I don't play druid in gw2 but I've already outline what they do and had described how their gameplay is active."

 

Check out your "evidence": At 0:46 the guy straight out says "the bad thing about Healing Servant is that it's stationary". Now, you do know what stationary means, right? It means that it can't move. I quit watching it after that, because when they start out stating that being stationary is bad, the odds are, your little rant about "just standing there" is pointless, and invalidated, by your own video.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

 

> Check out your "evidence": At 0:46 the guy straight out says "the bad thing about Healing Servant is that it's stationary". Now, you do know what stationary means, right? It means that it can't move. I quit watching it after that, because when they start out stating that being stationary is bad, the odds are, your little rant about "just standing there" is pointless, and invalidated, by your own video.

 

Now you're just straw manning with no sight of the bigger picture.

Like I said, "You can either start to describe how healers in aions are more active than druids in gw2 during combat or just go home."

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

>

> > Check out your "evidence": At 0:46 the guy straight out says "the bad thing about Healing Servant is that it's stationary". Now, you do know what stationary means, right? It means that it can't move. I quit watching it after that, because when they start out stating that being stationary is bad, the odds are, your little rant about "just standing there" is pointless, and invalidated, by your own video.

>

> Now you're just straw manning with no sight of the bigger picture.

> Like I said, "You can either start to describe how healers in aions are more active than druids in gw2 during combat or just go home."

 

Um, no? There is no strawman, you can play the video to 0:46, and read the words on the screen, the same as I did. I get it, I do, someone on the internet pulled your hole card, and it was a deuce, and now it's thrash around throwing out meme'd excuses for why you have to be right, despite the "evidence" you provide demonstrating something completely different. You were full of shit, you know it, and now you're going to start throwing out insults, and moving goal posts, and making excuses for why you can't be wrong, when, in the very video you provided to prove your point, it states, flat out, before it even gets to the one minute mark, that you're wrong.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

 

> Um, no? There is no strawman, you can play the video to 0:46, and read the words on the screen, the same as I did. I get it, I do, someone on the internet pulled your hole card, and it was a deuce, and now it's thrash around throwing out meme'd excuses for why you have to be right, despite the "evidence" you provide demonstrating something completely different. You were full of kitten, you know it, and now you're going to start throwing out insults, and moving goal posts, and making excuses for why you can't be wrong, when, in the very video you provided to prove your point, it states, flat out, before it even gets to the one minute mark, that you're wrong.

 

If you didn't bother to read page 5 I quite clearly said

"Point was pure healers and fixed roles of the trinity based games in general are boring. The ability to alter one's build to tailor to a particular battle and group composition without losing an arm or a leg in cost to respec is what makes theory and build crafting so much fun in gw2. On top of that most roles in gw2 are fairly active, even "primary" healer roles. Which adds to the over all fun and stands in stark contrast to how trinity mmos in general operate."

supplementary to the video that I posted. And then went on to describe what I would describe as "active" game play for the druid in gw2.

 

So far from what I can see from your posts you made no effort to describe what type of active gameplay a cleric can have in Aion apart from moving around to get out of aoes as though that is the highlight of that class' game play, I can only conclude 1) you either don't know what clerics do in aion even though you've played it since beta or 2) cleric gameplay in aion is really that "inactive" . Your fixation to minor details while losing sight of the bigger picture also does not bode well for the "veteran player" image that you so strife to convey.

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

>

> > Um, no? There is no strawman, you can play the video to 0:46, and read the words on the screen, the same as I did. I get it, I do, someone on the internet pulled your hole card, and it was a deuce, and now it's thrash around throwing out meme'd excuses for why you have to be right, despite the "evidence" you provide demonstrating something completely different. You were full of kitten, you know it, and now you're going to start throwing out insults, and moving goal posts, and making excuses for why you can't be wrong, when, in the very video you provided to prove your point, it states, flat out, before it even gets to the one minute mark, that you're wrong.

>

> If you didn't bother to read page 5 I quite clearly said

> "Point was pure healers and fixed roles of the trinity based games in general are boring. The ability to alter one's build to tailor to a particular battle and group composition without losing an arm or a leg in cost to respec is what makes theory and build crafting so much fun in gw2. On top of that most roles in gw2 are fairly active, even "primary" healer roles. Which adds to the over all fun and stands in stark contrast to how trinity mmos in general operate."

> supplementary to the video that I posted. And then went on to describe what I would describe as "active" game play for the druid in gw2.

>

> So far from what I can see from your posts you made no effort to describe what type of active gameplay a cleric can have in Aion apart from moving around to get out of aoes as though that is the highlight of that class' game play, I can only conclude 1) you either don't know what clerics do in aion even though you've played it since beta or 2) cleric gameplay in aion is really that "inactive" . Your fixation to minor details while losing sight of the bigger picture also does not bode well for the "veteran player" image that you so strife to convey.

 

...and this is exactly what I was talking about in the post you quoted. Thrash around some more mate, it's amusing. It's fun to watch youtube gamers try to explain how games work, it really is, especially when they provide videos that not only don't support their claims, but outright disprove them.

 

The reason I haven't run an exhaustive list of what healers in trinity games, not just Aion, but across the board, is because it would take me several hours, and several pages to type them out, especially if I'm going to break it down game by game. Anyone with any real gaming experience, not garnered from "enough videos to know", whilst providing a video that shoots a hole in that argument, fully understands what a healer's role is. They also understand the responsibilities that go with it. You, on the other hand, clearly don't. Why would I want to waste a few hours outlining what healers do in parties, when you're going to come back with "but my video", or "but druid", which is ironic, because all the "but druid" explanations? They point to 95% of what a healer does in a trinity based game, and frankly, 100% in some of them.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

 

> ...and this is exactly what I was talking about in the post you quoted. Thrash around some more mate, it's amusing. It's fun to watch youtube gamers try to explain how games work, it really is, especially when they provide videos that not only don't support their claims, but outright disprove them.

>

> The reason I haven't run an exhaustive list of what healers in trinity games, not just Aion, but across the board, is because it would take me several hours, and several pages to type them out, especially if I'm going to break it down game by game. Anyone with any real gaming experience, not garnered from "enough videos to know", whilst providing a video that shoots a hole in that argument, fully understands what a healer's role is. They also understand the responsibilities that go with it. You, on the other hand, clearly don't. Why would I want to waste a few hours outlining what healers do in parties, when you're going to come back with "but my video", or "but druid", which is ironic, because all the "but druid" explanations? They point to 95% of what a healer does in a trinity based game, and frankly, 100% in some of them.

 

And your inability to give concise descriptions instead of feeling the need the focus on minor details while losing the bigger picture is exactly why you have no idea. No one ever asked for pages and pages of details of how to play Cleric. That's not the point. Any intelligent individual would have given the more salient and prominent aspects what the Cleric is capable of and the highlights of what it can do in clutch situations to save the party in order to move the discussion in a meaningful way. Its called "giving a summary". Instead you are caught up in "because it would take me several hours, and several pages to type them out, especially if I'm going to break it down game by game". You have absolutely no idea how to portray your ideas and views.

[AliamRationem.5172]

Yeah, I don't see it, Squallaus. Nothing you've said changes the fact that the non-trinity design essentially removes two roles and replaces them with nothing but more of the same. That isn't interesting and it limits encounter design, resulting in GW2's instanced PvE being rather lackluster, in my opinion.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> Yeah, I don't see it, Squallaus. Nothing you've said changes the fact that the non-trinity design essentially removes two roles and replaces them with nothing but more of the same. That isn't interesting and it limits encounter design, resulting in GW2's instanced PvE being rather lackluster, in my opinion.

 

Each role is there to serve a purpose to reach an end result. If traditional roles are removed and new roles are created, but the purpose of the original roles are still covered by the new roles then you will still get the same result. Its called a change in basis. Just because you don't see it, it doesn't mean it wont work. If content in trinity systems are easy, you wont need trinity roles either. Its exactly the same thing in gw2. For content in gw2 that are easy, you wont need dedicated roles. But for harder content like raids and CMs, dedicated roles are necessary to progress and in some cases make runs a lot more easier.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> Yeah, I don't see it, Squallaus. Nothing you've said changes the fact that the non-trinity design essentially removes two roles and replaces them with nothing but more of the same. That isn't interesting and it limits encounter design, resulting in GW2's instanced PvE being rather lackluster, in my opinion.

 

Personally, I say forget the roles. Combat is combat, and there can be more complexity in two people hitting each other with sticks (See: Souls Series, BloodBorne) than there is in a 14 year old aggro management system. You can design a fight where a group of players must battle atop a gigantic rubiks cube that gives the boss different abilities depending on where it spins, and that fight would be complicated without touching group dynamics.

 

 

Unfortunately, the big old post I wrote about this issue before was eaten up when the old forums were deleted, so I'll have to free write it again: _There are roles in GW2 PVE combat_. However, they are not hard roles. The role that each class plays is more nuanced, since being an action game there are far more things to consider than just spreadsheet values. From dungeons to raids, there have been different needs for groups to fulfill, and a myriad of ways to fulfill them:

 

(1)Stealth. Back in dungeons, stealth was excellent for skipping mobs, bypassing certain mechanics, and aggro management. You'd either need a thief, or an engineer who can blast smoke fields. This role has lost its use in modern content, but nonetheless is still useful in legacy dungeons. Although I have found myself refuge-rezzing players in fractals on occasion.

 

(2)Blinder. The difference between a group that mysteriously wipes and a group that sails through content is often down to whether or not you have a teammate that can pulse blinds on enemies. Black Powder, Smoke Bomb, Gllyph of Storms, Well of Darkness, Radiance Guardian, etc were all good at disabling enemies, and with the cranked damage of vets and elites they were sometimes utterly necessary to get through content safely. Still useful in fractals today.

 

(3)Projectile manager. Whether you reflect projectiles, or destroy them. For awhile, this was a big one, since nearly all content in the game had enemies who shot at you relentlessly. It's still needed today, too, just not in such copious amounts.

 

(4)CCer. Not all classes do it evenly, or as conveniently. Having a teammate who can stun, daze, freeze, or outright disable large groups of enemies reliably is paramount.

(a)Hard CC

(b)Soft CC

 

(5)Enemy mover. This is not just a CCer: this is a player who can gather enemies together, or forcefully move them apart. Guardians, Mesmers, Holosmiths, Necromancers, even Revenants can pile enemies on top of each other, and most classes can quickly relocate an enemy if needed. Or, barring that, keeping some enemies in place (I.E. line of warding).

 

(6)Boon support. Originally we had combo blasters and combo starters, but that has been simplified a bit. We still need classes to give out boons, both because they're useful and because a lot of classes have profession specific buffs tied to boons. I'm considering regen as part of the healer role.

(a)Might Stacker

(b)Fury Stacker

©Quickness Stacker

(d)Alacrity Stacker

(e)Protection Stacker

(f)Vigor Stacker

(g)Aegis Stacker

(h)Unique buffs

 

(7)Condi cleanser. This role is distinct from healers, since you don't need to be a healer to do it, but nonetheless it is important in many circumstances. Again, not every class has equal access to condi clears.

 

(8)Boon ripper. A rare but nonetheless pivotal role. Some enemies really stack on the nasty boons (retaliation, for example), and unless you can get those boons off, you're gonna have a bad time.

 

(9)Burster. This is one of the two primary forms of DPS. This isn't just any power build. It is a power build that is capable of unloading a lot of damage in a short amount of time, in case there are enemies that need to go down ASAP. You see this most often in fractals, where vinds and anomalies have to be killed within moments of spawning.

 

(10)The condi build. This is another form of DPS, notable for two reasons. First, it can be spread via epidemic. Second, it bypasses toughness, so against high toughness enemies it is really useful.

 

(11)The vulnerability stacker. Capped vulnerability doesn't just come from nowhere.

 

(12)Ranged DPSer. AKA the kiter. This is an uncommon role, but sometimes you need a player who can do a lot of damage at a distance. Whether they are kiting range directed attacks, or you are fighting an enemy that you can't get close to for some reason.

 

(13)Healer. You all know this one.

 

(14)Toughness Tanker. You all know this one.

 

(15) Body blocker. This is an unusual role, but it works like this: there are some attacks that stop when hitting an entity, but can't be stopped with standard projectile management. Here, you need somebody who can take the hit reliably so everyone else doesn't have to. For example, Necromancers can often place Flesh Wurms inside of enemy models, causing their attacks to hit the Wurm instead of everyone else. Sometimes, the best way to tank is figuratively with your face.

 

(16)Stabilizer/Group Stun breaker. Sometimes, enemies have AoE CC, and you'll need somebody who can stunbreak not just themselves, but the entire team.

 

All of this is without looking at profession specific buffs, or mechanically unique encounter. There is probably more that I am not thinking of, or more that I can divide the groups in to (I.E. "evade tanking"). You can use all of these to deal with encounters in a creative number of ways. When a problem presents itself, usually there's several solutions to it. There's a lot to consider in this game other than how much you heal, and who can tank the most. Also, it does sadden me a bit that the roles of Combo Fielder and Blast Finisher are all but gone now.

[Raizel.8175]

@"Doctor Hide.6345" : You don't have to wait long for certain roles to fill your party/squad in GW2? Please just look up the raid- and fractal-master-tier-sections of the GW2-LFG. You will always have people waiting for chronos and/or druids all the time. While GW2 doesn't have the typical trinity, it has all problems trinity-based games have because the professions in GW2 are vastly unbalanced.

 

@"robertthebard.8150" and @"squallaus.8321" : Your Aion-example is kinda not helping. Aion isn't really a PvE-game; it's focused on PvP and in PvP, healing is a lot more difficult. You should search for other examples for PvE since PvE in Aion is pretty cheap even though there are some dungeons that are probably more difficult than raids in GW2 since they actively force you to communicate with each other.

 

I also kinda disagree with people who say that trinity-based combat has made GW2s PvE any better. Many raid-encounters are in fact your typical trinity-based tank 'n spank, which is quite boring. You also have druid and chrono as vastly overpowered specializations which mostly handle every single mechanic. Don't know about raid-cms, but the normal thing is very casual in comparison to other PvE-centered games.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> @"Doctor Hide.6345" : You don't have to wait long for certain roles to fill your party/squad in GW2? Please just look up the raid- and fractal-master-tier-sections of the GW2-LFG. You will always have people waiting for chronos and/or druids all the time. While GW2 doesn't have the typical trinity, it has all problems trinity-based games have because the professions in GW2 are vastly unbalanced.

>

 

No you're confusing group composition preference and necessity. Quite a few raids are doable without druids and chronos. You can take a combination of renegade support, firebrand support and necromancer support if you really wanted to. But most groups will field druid + chrono because its well established and works. As always if you don't want to join their squads make our own if you think you know what you're doing. From what I can tell you only seem know to copy and paste meta comps and then complain about them.

 

> @"robertthebard.8150" and @"squallaus.8321" : Your Aion-example is kinda not helping. Aion isn't really a PvE-game; it's focused on PvP and in PvP, healing is a lot more difficult. You should search for other examples for PvE since PvE in Aion is pretty cheap even though there are some dungeons that are probably more difficult than raids in GW2 since they actively force you to communicate with each other.

>

*shrugs* feel free to link a video of hard Aion dungeon and some example from other games. Chances are they will look very dull compared to gw2 raids and fractals.

 

 

> I also kinda disagree with people who say that trinity-based combat has made GW2s PvE any better. Many raid-encounters are in fact your typical trinity-based tank 'n spank, which is quite boring. You also have druid and chrono as vastly overpowered specializations which mostly handle every single mechanic. Don't know about raid-cms, but the normal thing is very casual in comparison to other PvE-centered games.

 

Current raid content may well look casual for more veteran players but they will in fact take new players typically several months to get into and get good at. If you think other wise then go make your own guild and raid group instead of constantly complaining about LFG requiring chronos and druids constantly.