squallaus.8321 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > Seriously, what are you talking about? Boons are simply buffs that have a few extra rules applied to them (e.g. boon corruption, concentration, etc.). You can't possibly think that party buffing is a new concept. > > > > Its not a new concept but they are often not part of DPS builds in gw2. Therefore roles exist in gw2. Just that they are not trinity roles. > > > > But those same roles exist in trinity games under the umbrella of "DPS". That's what I keep telling you. The tank and healer roles are stripped away and all you have left is "DPS". Our poor attempts at "tanking" and "healing" in raid encounters are nothing but a pale shadow, and evidence that trinity is the way to go (why else introduce it to the raids that were never going to be?). > > We're talking in circles here. This has all been said already. Except the healer and tank roles aren't stripped away. Just that its not always necessary. And some of those subroles aforementioned are covered by some of the non dps specs in gw2 instead of the DPS role/umbrella like in other games. Whats your problem with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joneirikb.7506 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Curious: If you look at this from another perspective, if "most" players in traditional MMO's prefer to play DPS roles. What if we "remove DPS role by incorporating it into the other roles ? So All the other roles (Tank, Healer, Controller) also can do DPS. Would that remove the trinity? In example, just going to use WoW as an example since I remember some class names, and nope not a wow pro, so probably getting something wrong: * Warrior = Tank + DPS * Priest = Healer + DPS * Warlock = Controller + DPS * Hunter = Controller + DPS for example, how would that work for trinity players/fans ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipion.7548 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"joneirikb.7506" said: > > * Warrior = Tank + DPS > * Priest = Healer + DPS > * Warlock = Controller + DPS > * Hunter = Controller + DPS > > for example, how would that work for trinity players/fans ? This would work. In fact, with the exception of the "healer + dps" combo, this is generaly how traditionnal trinity games work. A tank warrior does also damage and generally DPS are expected to CC in dungeons and raids (back at Cataclysm, when dungeons where pretty hard, I used to kick DPS who didnt want to CC). I really think this is what GW2 should have done, with elite spec changing the non-DPS role. Guardian = Tank + DPS DH = Controller + DPS Firebrand = Support + DPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squallaus.8321 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > *shrugs* feel free to link a video of hard Aion dungeon and some example from other games. Chances are they will look very dull compared to gw2 raids and fractals. > Wildstar wiped the floor with anything GW2 offers, too bad they kitten up so much other stuff about the game. Nevertheless, feel free to admire Rains in all his glory at Starmap: > Tanking or healing encounters like these makes GW2 feel like a booze cruise. That isn't necessarily bad, but please don't try to describe GW2 raids/fractals as something particularly challenging. It isn't. And that particular raid is challenging because........ there are a lot of people in squad and hard to coordinate? I don't see any awesome kiting, evades, clutch rez saves. Are you able to describe the active and engaging game play in that video? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Hide.6345 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > @"Doctor Hide.6345" : You don't have to wait long for certain roles to fill your party/squad in GW2? Please just look up the raid- and fractal-master-tier-sections of the GW2-LFG. You will always have people waiting for chronos and/or druids all the time. While GW2 doesn't have the typical trinity, it has all problems trinity-based games have because the professions in GW2 are vastly unbalanced. > They are not needed at those levels though like healers and tanks are in Trinity games. You can run those just fine without them, so what you are basically describing is people's preferences on what they are want and what is not necessary. They are choosing to wait that long when in reality they don't have to which is not the case for trinity games because each encounter forces you to wait for healers and tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > Seriously, what are you talking about? Boons are simply buffs that have a few extra rules applied to them (e.g. boon corruption, concentration, etc.). You can't possibly think that party buffing is a new concept. > > > > > > Its not a new concept but they are often not part of DPS builds in gw2. Therefore roles exist in gw2. Just that they are not trinity roles. > > > > > > > But those same roles exist in trinity games under the umbrella of "DPS". That's what I keep telling you. The tank and healer roles are stripped away and all you have left is "DPS". Our poor attempts at "tanking" and "healing" in raid encounters are nothing but a pale shadow, and evidence that trinity is the way to go (why else introduce it to the raids that were never going to be?). > > > > We're talking in circles here. This has all been said already. > > Except the healer and tank roles aren't stripped away. Just that its not always necessary. And some of those subroles aforementioned are covered by some of the non dps specs in gw2 instead of the DPS role/umbrella like in other games. Whats your problem with this? Again, talking in circles. You said all of this before, to which my response was that what you call "tanking" and "healing" are a bare skeleton of what they are in a trinity game. It is not remotely close to the same thing. It's okay. You're welcome to like what you like. I think we understand each other at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squallaus.8321 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"Scipion.7548" said: > I really think this is what GW2 should have done, with elite spec changing the non-DPS role. > Guardian = Tank + DPS > DH = Controller + DPS > Firebrand = Support + DPS > well I mean, that really depends on what stats you want to use. You could have those combinations if you really wanted to. For example... Guardian = Tank + DPS Virtues 3 2 1 radiance 1 2 1 valor 2 2 2 Trailblazer gear that focus burning dmg and can tank. Firebrand can do this better though. DH = Controller + DPS This is your meta DH build. Virtues 1 2 1, Radiance 2 3 3 Dragon hunter 1 2 3 Full berserker. F1 and traps for CC/control. Firebrand = Support + DPS This is firebrand with Harrier gear from boot's bad build videos. Radiance 3 3 3 Honor 3 2 2 Fire Brand 2 1 3 Uses retaliation for high crit chance. Most of the dps come from radiance line. High heals and high boon up time for self and party members. Power damage for dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squallaus.8321 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > Again, talking in circles. You said all of this before, to which my response was that what you call "tanking" and "healing" are a bare skeleton of what they are in a trinity game. It is not remotely close to the same thing. > > It's okay. You're welcome to like what you like. I think we understand each other at this point. I am simply saying there is more than 1 way to heal, there is more than 1 way to tank. You are no longer bound by tradition in gw2. But you can still go ahead with the traditional healer and tank builds if you choose to. And as I've argued all along, this flexibility is much better than fixed trinity roles. Roles do not dictate the quality of raid content. Roles are created out of necessity to complete content. Easier the content the less roles required. Harder the content the more roles required. I'll give you an example, in 100CM you typically have 2 DPS + BS + Druid + Chrono. But for a period of time just after corporal punishment bug at arkk was fixed, you actually needed 1 DPS + 1 Power DPS + BS + Druid + chrono. The power dps was needed to burst down the anons quickly at Arkk. Then a few weeks later anet increased the amount of time u had to kill the anomaly by 3 seconds, so now we're back to 2 DPS + BS + Druid + Chrono. That extra Power DPS role was created out of necessity to cope with an increase in difficulty with the boss Arkk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > Yeah, I don't see it, Squallaus. Nothing you've said changes the fact that the non-trinity design essentially removes two roles and replaces them with nothing but more of the same. That isn't interesting and it limits encounter design, resulting in GW2's instanced PvE being rather lackluster, in my opinion. > > Personally, I say forget the roles. Combat is combat, and there can be more complexity in two people hitting each other with sticks (See: Souls Series, BloodBorne) than there is in a 14 year old aggro management system. You can design a fight where a group of players must battle atop a gigantic rubiks cube that gives the boss different abilities depending on where it spins, and that fight would be complicated without touching group dynamics. > > > Unfortunately, the big old post I wrote about this issue before was eaten up when the old forums were deleted, so I'll have to free write it again: _There are roles in GW2 PVE combat_. However, they are not hard roles. The role that each class plays is more nuanced, since being an action game there are far more things to consider than just spreadsheet values. From dungeons to raids, there have been different needs for groups to fulfill, and a myriad of ways to fulfill them: > > (1)Stealth. Back in dungeons, stealth was excellent for skipping mobs, bypassing certain mechanics, and aggro management. You'd either need a thief, or an engineer who can blast smoke fields. This role has lost its use in modern content, but nonetheless is still useful in legacy dungeons. Although I have found myself refuge-rezzing players in fractals on occasion. > > (2)Blinder. The difference between a group that mysteriously wipes and a group that sails through content is often down to whether or not you have a teammate that can pulse blinds on enemies. Black Powder, Smoke Bomb, Gllyph of Storms, Well of Darkness, Radiance Guardian, etc were all good at disabling enemies, and with the cranked damage of vets and elites they were sometimes utterly necessary to get through content safely. Still useful in fractals today. > > (3)Projectile manager. Whether you reflect projectiles, or destroy them. For awhile, this was a big one, since nearly all content in the game had enemies who shot at you relentlessly. It's still needed today, too, just not in such copious amounts. > > (4)CCer. Not all classes do it evenly, or as conveniently. Having a teammate who can stun, daze, freeze, or outright disable large groups of enemies reliably is paramount. > (a)Hard CC > (b)Soft CC > > (5)Enemy mover. This is not just a CCer: this is a player who can gather enemies together, or forcefully move them apart. Guardians, Mesmers, Holosmiths, Necromancers, even Revenants can pile enemies on top of each other, and most classes can quickly relocate an enemy if needed. Or, barring that, keeping some enemies in place (I.E. line of warding). > > (6)Boon support. Originally we had combo blasters and combo starters, but that has been simplified a bit. We still need classes to give out boons, both because they're useful and because a lot of classes have profession specific buffs tied to boons. I'm considering regen as part of the healer role. > (a)Might Stacker > (b)Fury Stacker > ©Quickness Stacker > (d)Alacrity Stacker > (e)Protection Stacker > (f)Vigor Stacker > (g)Aegis Stacker > (h)Unique buffs > > (7)Condi cleanser. This role is distinct from healers, since you don't need to be a healer to do it, but nonetheless it is important in many circumstances. Again, not every class has equal access to condi clears. > > (8)Boon ripper. A rare but nonetheless pivotal role. Some enemies really stack on the nasty boons (retaliation, for example), and unless you can get those boons off, you're gonna have a bad time. > > (9)Burster. This is one of the two primary forms of DPS. This isn't just any power build. It is a power build that is capable of unloading a lot of damage in a short amount of time, in case there are enemies that need to go down ASAP. You see this most often in fractals, where vinds and anomalies have to be killed within moments of spawning. > > (10)The condi build. This is another form of DPS, notable for two reasons. First, it can be spread via epidemic. Second, it bypasses toughness, so against high toughness enemies it is really useful. > > (11)The vulnerability stacker. Capped vulnerability doesn't just come from nowhere. > > (12)Ranged DPSer. AKA the kiter. This is an uncommon role, but sometimes you need a player who can do a lot of damage at a distance. Whether they are kiting range directed attacks, or you are fighting an enemy that you can't get close to for some reason. > > (13)Healer. You all know this one. > > (14)Toughness Tanker. You all know this one. > > (15) Body blocker. This is an unusual role, but it works like this: there are some attacks that stop when hitting an entity, but can't be stopped with standard projectile management. Here, you need somebody who can take the hit reliably so everyone else doesn't have to. For example, Necromancers can often place Flesh Wurms inside of enemy models, causing their attacks to hit the Wurm instead of everyone else. Sometimes, the best way to tank is figuratively with your face. > > (16)Stabilizer/Group Stun breaker. Sometimes, enemies have AoE CC, and you'll need somebody who can stunbreak not just themselves, but the entire team. > > All of this is without looking at profession specific buffs, or mechanically unique encounter. There is probably more that I am not thinking of, or more that I can divide the groups in to (I.E. "evade tanking"). You can use all of these to deal with encounters in a creative number of ways. When a problem presents itself, usually there's several solutions to it. There's a lot to consider in this game other than how much you heal, and who can tank the most. Also, it does sadden me a bit that the roles of Combo Fielder and Blast Finisher are all but gone now. Most of those don't qualify as roles, but merely tactics. I mean, why not have a "Swiftness Providier" so that people can run between encounters faster or a "Leaper" which is someone who uses leap or teleport techniques to escape AoEs? IMO, a role in a game like this is how you play moreso than what you provide to others, it's just that the way you play within a group tend to combine into a group tactic to defeat the encounter. For example, a "boon support", "vulnerability stacker", "blinder", "boon ripper", "stealther" are all just forms of support and each profession specializes in different forms of support (or they are supposed to). Had it been a "role", it would be something akin to ripping boons from a target to sustain yourself and keep the target's attention or a hit that is missed by blind heals the target or something, as such they are means to change how you play and interact rather than a tactic you're using for a given interaction. And I don't think it was very common for a DoT DPS to be differentiated from a common DPS. They are the same thing and play identically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertthebard.8150 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"joneirikb.7506" said: > Curious: If you look at this from another perspective, if "most" players in traditional MMO's prefer to play DPS roles. What if we "remove DPS role by incorporating it into the other roles ? So All the other roles (Tank, Healer, Controller) also can do DPS. Would that remove the trinity? > > In example, just going to use WoW as an example since I remember some class names, and nope not a wow pro, so probably getting something wrong: > > * Warrior = Tank + DPS > * Priest = Healer + DPS > * Warlock = Controller + DPS > * Hunter = Controller + DPS > > for example, how would that work for trinity players/fans ? This already exists, barring specific class names, in trinity based MMOs like DDO and swtor, off the top of my head. It's similar to what's done in ESO as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > Seriously, what are you talking about? Boons are simply buffs that have a few extra rules applied to them (e.g. boon corruption, concentration, etc.). You can't possibly think that party buffing is a new concept. > > > > Its not a new concept but they are often not part of DPS builds in gw2. Therefore roles exist in gw2. Just that they are not trinity roles. > > > > But those same roles exist in trinity games under the umbrella of "DPS". That's what I keep telling you. The tank and healer roles are stripped away and all you have left is "DPS". Our poor attempts at "tanking" and "healing" in raid encounters are nothing but a pale shadow, and evidence that trinity is the way to go (why else introduce it to the raids that were never going to be?). > > We're talking in circles here. This has all been said already. Im not sure what you mean when you say, "raids that were never going to be." Anet said pre launch that gw2 would have its own version of raids. The equivalent of raids in other games. Unfortunately the content intended to fulfill that role was insufficient to the task and so Anet went back to the drawing board. -------------- The game didnt replace trinity roles with just dps. It created a new, more dynamic, system in which a single character needs to be able to dps, tank, heal, buff, debuff, and cc situationally, at need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaraki.5784 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 This game is too dps-centric. I just miss the lack of a healing-only role, druid, the so-called healer in groups, has still to do some dps to be accepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Hide.6345 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"Zaraki.5784" said: > This game is too dps-centric. > I just miss the lack of a healing-only role, druid, the so-called healer in groups, has still to do some dps to be accepted. There is nothing wrong with that. The reality is most people prefer DPS roles over tanking and healing which is why in every trinity game those roles are lowest population wise. Having a non trinity game that is basically all dps is a good thing because that is what most people prefer according tons of MMO statistics on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joneirikb.7506 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"robertthebard.8150" said: > > @"joneirikb.7506" said: > > Curious: If you look at this from another perspective, if "most" players in traditional MMO's prefer to play DPS roles. What if we "remove DPS role by incorporating it into the other roles ? So All the other roles (Tank, Healer, Controller) also can do DPS. Would that remove the trinity? > > > > In example, just going to use WoW as an example since I remember some class names, and nope not a wow pro, so probably getting something wrong: > > > > * Warrior = Tank + DPS > > * Priest = Healer + DPS > > * Warlock = Controller + DPS > > * Hunter = Controller + DPS > > > > for example, how would that work for trinity players/fans ? > > This already exists, barring specific class names, in trinity based MMOs like DDO and swtor, off the top of my head. It's similar to what's done in ESO as well. > At that point, are there still DPS classes ? This is probably a bit off-topic, just curious how it would have changed peoples perception on Trinity, if we actually removed the DPS role. And how people would divide out over the then existing roles. In many ways, I guess that is how I see GW2, all classes are DPS. So the question is more about "what else" can they do. --- It's been ages since I touched DDO, and I never played very serious in that game, but I remember that you often wanted wizards for intelligence to solve certain runes, rogues for lockpoicks to enable shortcuts etc. But don't really remember how DPS was handled. (I came in from a D&D background not an MMO background to DDO, was one of my first mmo's). D&D itself always been a bit wacky at the "roles" because they're not locked in stone, you could always change the classes up a good bit to play in different styles. Like how Cleric could be one of the best melee combatants and tanks for example, or my favorite, melee wizard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > Seriously, what are you talking about? Boons are simply buffs that have a few extra rules applied to them (e.g. boon corruption, concentration, etc.). You can't possibly think that party buffing is a new concept. > > > > > > Its not a new concept but they are often not part of DPS builds in gw2. Therefore roles exist in gw2. Just that they are not trinity roles. > > > > > > > But those same roles exist in trinity games under the umbrella of "DPS". That's what I keep telling you. The tank and healer roles are stripped away and all you have left is "DPS". Our poor attempts at "tanking" and "healing" in raid encounters are nothing but a pale shadow, and evidence that trinity is the way to go (why else introduce it to the raids that were never going to be?). > > > > We're talking in circles here. This has all been said already. > > Im not sure what you mean when you say, "raids that were never going to be." > > Anet said pre launch that gw2 would have its own version of raids. The equivalent of raids in other games. Unfortunately the content intended to fulfill that role was insufficient to the task and so Anet went back to the drawing board. > > -------------- > > The game didnt replace trinity roles with just dps. It created a new, more dynamic, system in which a single character needs to be able to dps, tank, heal, buff, debuff, and cc situationally, at need. I mean that sounds really great and all (almost like a slogan!), but when you use the words "tank" and "heal" to apply to what all classes in GW2 do as a matter of course, again, those are all things that DPS classes in trinity games do as well. Calling it "new" and "dynamic" doesn't alter the fact that nearly all builds in this game fall under the broad category of "DPS". The fact that you are capable of using skills that heal does not make you a healer. Nor does putting toughness and vitality on your gear make you a tank (it makes you _tanky_ - two different things!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"joneirikb.7506" said: > > @"robertthebard.8150" said: > > > @"joneirikb.7506" said: > > > Curious: If you look at this from another perspective, if "most" players in traditional MMO's prefer to play DPS roles. What if we "remove DPS role by incorporating it into the other roles ? So All the other roles (Tank, Healer, Controller) also can do DPS. Would that remove the trinity? > > > > > > In example, just going to use WoW as an example since I remember some class names, and nope not a wow pro, so probably getting something wrong: > > > > > > * Warrior = Tank + DPS > > > * Priest = Healer + DPS > > > * Warlock = Controller + DPS > > > * Hunter = Controller + DPS > > > > > > for example, how would that work for trinity players/fans ? > > > > This already exists, barring specific class names, in trinity based MMOs like DDO and swtor, off the top of my head. It's similar to what's done in ESO as well. > > > > At that point, are there still DPS classes ? > > This is probably a bit off-topic, just curious how it would have changed peoples perception on Trinity, if we actually removed the DPS role. And how people would divide out over the then existing roles. > > In many ways, I guess that is how I see GW2, all classes are DPS. So the question is more about "what else" can they do. > > --- > > It's been ages since I touched DDO, and I never played very serious in that game, but I remember that you often wanted wizards for intelligence to solve certain runes, rogues for lockpoicks to enable shortcuts etc. But don't really remember how DPS was handled. (I came in from a D&D background not an MMO background to DDO, was one of my first mmo's). > > D&D itself always been a bit wacky at the "roles" because they're not locked in stone, you could always change the classes up a good bit to play in different styles. Like how Cleric could be one of the best melee combatants and tanks for example, or my favorite, melee wizard. Personally think it's not about "what roles players want to fulfil" but rather "how much influence a player wants to exert". It just so happens that big damage numbers are one of the stronger ways to influence the game and the entities in it. Healing has a large influence as well but only to a degree of how much damage is being taken. It's also partly what players prioritize but the game ultimately decides what influence is the greatest and in GW2, that is damage. Nearly every other aspect, boon and stat is to facilitate dealing damage. But we are talking about an action combat geared experience here. To do anything else would require restricting players and specific professions/builds and add aspects to the game that aren't combat. We'll just have to admit that GW2 is simply a simple action game. A concept like solving rune puzzles, picking locks and such would be cool but the playerbase would argue (and rightly so) that why should a wizard be the only one with the intelligence to solve them or why only thieves can pick locks. The obvious answer would be denied/ignored but it's simply that having restricting aspects makes the act of bypassing those restrictions seem that much more amazing and valuable. Masteries felt like this up until the point that everything can be unlocked and then any subsequent masteries added more closely resemble an arbitrary character level rather than a character mastery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said: > > @"Zaraki.5784" said: > > This game is too dps-centric. > > I just miss the lack of a healing-only role, druid, the so-called healer in groups, has still to do some dps to be accepted. > > There is nothing wrong with that. The reality is most people prefer DPS roles over tanking and healing which is why in every trinity game those roles are lowest population wise. Having a non trinity game that is basically all dps is a good thing because that is what most people prefer according tons of MMO statistics on the matter. It's a very good thing in that sense, yes. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it produces better gameplay and encounter design.> @"joneirikb.7506" said: > > @"robertthebard.8150" said: > > > @"joneirikb.7506" said: > > > Curious: If you look at this from another perspective, if "most" players in traditional MMO's prefer to play DPS roles. What if we "remove DPS role by incorporating it into the other roles ? So All the other roles (Tank, Healer, Controller) also can do DPS. Would that remove the trinity? > > > > > > In example, just going to use WoW as an example since I remember some class names, and nope not a wow pro, so probably getting something wrong: > > > > > > * Warrior = Tank + DPS > > > * Priest = Healer + DPS > > > * Warlock = Controller + DPS > > > * Hunter = Controller + DPS > > > > > > for example, how would that work for trinity players/fans ? > > > > This already exists, barring specific class names, in trinity based MMOs like DDO and swtor, off the top of my head. It's similar to what's done in ESO as well. > > > > At that point, are there still DPS classes ? > > This is probably a bit off-topic, just curious how it would have changed peoples perception on Trinity, if we actually removed the DPS role. And how people would divide out over the then existing roles. > > In many ways, I guess that is how I see GW2, all classes are DPS. So the question is more about "what else" can they do. > > --- > > It's been ages since I touched DDO, and I never played very serious in that game, but I remember that you often wanted wizards for intelligence to solve certain runes, rogues for lockpoicks to enable shortcuts etc. But don't really remember how DPS was handled. (I came in from a D&D background not an MMO background to DDO, was one of my first mmo's). > > D&D itself always been a bit wacky at the "roles" because they're not locked in stone, you could always change the classes up a good bit to play in different styles. Like how Cleric could be one of the best melee combatants and tanks for example, or my favorite, melee wizard. It sounds like we're having trouble agreeing upon a definition of the term "DPS". From the trinity perspective, DPS is basically a catch-all to include anything that is not a tank or healer. All classes are capable of some degree of support, with some being more critical than others. This is not unlike GW2. The defining difference is that they have tanks and healers while we do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertthebard.8150 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"joneirikb.7506" said: > > @"robertthebard.8150" said: > > > @"joneirikb.7506" said: > > > Curious: If you look at this from another perspective, if "most" players in traditional MMO's prefer to play DPS roles. What if we "remove DPS role by incorporating it into the other roles ? So All the other roles (Tank, Healer, Controller) also can do DPS. Would that remove the trinity? > > > > > > In example, just going to use WoW as an example since I remember some class names, and nope not a wow pro, so probably getting something wrong: > > > > > > * Warrior = Tank + DPS > > > * Priest = Healer + DPS > > > * Warlock = Controller + DPS > > > * Hunter = Controller + DPS > > > > > > for example, how would that work for trinity players/fans ? > > > > This already exists, barring specific class names, in trinity based MMOs like DDO and swtor, off the top of my head. It's similar to what's done in ESO as well. > > > > At that point, are there still DPS classes ? > > This is probably a bit off-topic, just curious how it would have changed peoples perception on Trinity, if we actually removed the DPS role. And how people would divide out over the then existing roles. > > In many ways, I guess that is how I see GW2, all classes are DPS. So the question is more about "what else" can they do. > > --- > > It's been ages since I touched DDO, and I never played very serious in that game, but I remember that you often wanted wizards for intelligence to solve certain runes, rogues for lockpoicks to enable shortcuts etc. But don't really remember how DPS was handled. (I came in from a D&D background not an MMO background to DDO, was one of my first mmo's). > > D&D itself always been a bit wacky at the "roles" because they're not locked in stone, you could always change the classes up a good bit to play in different styles. Like how Cleric could be one of the best melee combatants and tanks for example, or my favorite, melee wizard. Yes, because at the end of the day, if you're killing mobs to level up, you're doing dps, no matter what role your character is supposed to have. You can take tanks, and to a lesser extent healers out of the game. They have done that here to a large degree, by not including mechanics for actual tanking. There is no taunt, for one thing. Aggro is established randomly, based on damage output or if you're the first one to hit something, and nobody else out damages you. Rogues in DDO have CC built in, with stuns, trips and on the acrobat, an AoE trip. DPS classes across the spectrum of games that I've played, including this one, have some measure of CC at their disposal. In some games, it's a "panic button", but in others it's part of the class's identity, such as mages being control types, or AoE specialists. This does not, however remove them from the realm of dps, as that is their primary function, whether it's single target, or AoE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > Seriously, what are you talking about? Boons are simply buffs that have a few extra rules applied to them (e.g. boon corruption, concentration, etc.). You can't possibly think that party buffing is a new concept. > > > > > > > > Its not a new concept but they are often not part of DPS builds in gw2. Therefore roles exist in gw2. Just that they are not trinity roles. > > > > > > > > > > But those same roles exist in trinity games under the umbrella of "DPS". That's what I keep telling you. The tank and healer roles are stripped away and all you have left is "DPS". Our poor attempts at "tanking" and "healing" in raid encounters are nothing but a pale shadow, and evidence that trinity is the way to go (why else introduce it to the raids that were never going to be?). > > > > > > We're talking in circles here. This has all been said already. > > > > Im not sure what you mean when you say, "raids that were never going to be." > > > > Anet said pre launch that gw2 would have its own version of raids. The equivalent of raids in other games. Unfortunately the content intended to fulfill that role was insufficient to the task and so Anet went back to the drawing board. > > > > -------------- > > > > The game didnt replace trinity roles with just dps. It created a new, more dynamic, system in which a single character needs to be able to dps, tank, heal, buff, debuff, and cc situationally, at need. > > I mean that sounds really great and all (almost like a slogan!), but when you use the words "tank" and "heal" to apply to what all classes in GW2 do as a matter of course, again, those are all things that DPS classes in trinity games do as well. Calling it "new" and "dynamic" doesn't alter the fact that nearly all builds in this game fall under the broad category of "DPS". The fact that you are capable of using skills that heal does not make you a healer. Nor does putting toughness and vitality on your gear make you a tank (it makes you _tanky_ - two different things!). A character here needs to be able to handle aggro when he gets it, passing it off to another when the boss' attention becomes overwhelming. The character may then heal himself, or even others, provide group wide defensive buffs, and, of course offensive buffs, debuffs, and CC. In another game I played where true trinity play was purely optional, more of a crutch for those players less able to adapt quickly to changing fight dynamics, we used the term wolfpack tactics to describe a common approach to big boss fights. Any member of the party could expect to get aggro and was expected to be able to handle it for at least a while. Other members of the party would be expected to take aggro away from another if the heat got to be too much for them. Any member of the party might be expected to support those taking the most heat with a heal or defensive buff (or a cc or debuff on the boss) all of them while carrying their weight in ablating the boss' health pool. The boss focus on attacking the one person in the group that he is least able to hurt while ignoring, to an extent, the actual threat is a simplification crutch intended to water group play down to make it more manageable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 I disagree that having a tank and healer allow for better encounter design than the GW2 soft role system. At their basic level, an instanced boss fight in either a hard trinity game or in GW2 amount to a big bag of health that attacks one character (or one character at a time) while other characters kill it. In hard trinity, this is the "tank n' spank" encounter. In GW2, this is many of the encounters from the launch era explorable dungeons. What are the mechanics that can be used in hard trinity games to make encounters more diverse and interesting that cannot be used in either system? + Adds? Both. + AoE? Both. + Perform action X at time(s) Y? Both. + Change positioning? Both. + Split the party? Both. + Prevent X from happening? Both. Sure, some of these mechanics (or others you may think of) might play out a little differently with hard trinity mechanics than in GW2. However, whatever a GW2 take on such mechanics would be adds as much to an encounter as it would in a trinity game. The real difference is in player psychology. In a hard trinity game, the tank and healer are indispensable. Their essential contribution to party success is set in stone by game design. In GW2, player contributions to party success are no less dictated by game design, but there is no gate that only the tank and healer can open. In GW2 raids, the feeling that "My contribution is more indispensable than everyone else's." is at least somewhat more available than in dungeons and fractals. That's what is really lacking in GW2's soft role system -- players used to being the party linchpins are denied that experience. That's not to say that a soft role system cannot be undermined by poor encounter design. However, the same thing can happen in hard trinity games. Going back to the basic level encounter, tank n' spank is as (or more) boring than bag o' health bashing with the possible need to block/dodge big attacks because there is no really tough character to just take the hits while someone else tops their health off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > Okay. So basically, you just put 100 different sub-categories under the label of "DPS". Now multiply by 3 and you have a trinity game. I always find it strange when somebody insists on arguing, but refuses to actually read what they're arguing against. Go back and read it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriel.6310 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 honestly its why the game struggles imo... trying to be too different which worked out at first, but the constant band-aiding of professions with a new profession that has nothing to do with their core, making everyone equal to do dmg, etc. If there was a trinity I feel like maybe class balance wouldnt take as long, but then again.. who knows.. I still disagree with other parts of the game such as making our weapon skills permanent to that specific weap which killed diversity to begin with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > Most of those don't qualify as roles, but merely tactics. I mean, why not have a "Swiftness Providier" so that people can run between encounters faster or a "Leaper" which is someone who uses leap or teleport techniques to escape AoEs? IMO, a role in a game like this is how you play moreso than what you provide to others, it's just that the way you play within a group tend to combine into a group tactic to defeat the encounter. For example, a "boon support", "vulnerability stacker", "blinder", "boon ripper", "stealther" are all just forms of support and each profession specializes in different forms of support (or they are supposed to). Had it been a "role", it would be something akin to ripping boons from a target to sustain yourself and keep the target's attention or a hit that is missed by blind heals the target or something, as such they are means to change how you play and interact rather than a tactic you're using for a given interaction. > > And I don't think it was very common for a DoT DPS to be differentiated from a common DPS. They are the same thing and play identically. All roles are merely tactics assigned to individuals. It becomes a hard role if it is the only thing you do and nobody else can, but it is a soft role if you can do multiple things and multiple people can fulfill your role. If you tried hard enough, you can call anything you do in the game "support". I.E. DPSers support the team by killing off threats before they can hurt the team. Personally, if I were to break everything I listed into extremely broad categories, it would look like this: Buffers Debuffers Controllers Environmental Effects Miscellaneous utility But, each of the things I listed individually is prominent enough to bare mentioning. Movement speed in combat is an important thing... in PVP (AKA the +1 and skirmisher). In PVE they aren't as important. Swiftness providers used to be a role when dungeon speed clears were a thing, but in modern fights having to move quickly is a mechanically specific niche utility more than anything else. Splitting damage types isn't uncommon at all. Many games have an elemental system, or a division of damage types. I.E. you have physical damage and magic damage, or you have fire/water/air/earth in a bigger game of paper/rock/scissors. You can also have damage divided by ranges and areas, such as melee, range, AoE, single target. In particular, the broad damage types in GW2 bear mentioning due to how differently they interact: Power damage is immediate, but it is affected by armor and protection. The speed at which it can be done is really useful, so much that cm100 groups will specifically recruit a power build to kill off anomalies. Condition damage bypasses armor and protection, and it can be spread wide with epidemic. But, it has varying levels of ramp up, and it can be cleansed away. These differences are big enough that, for awhile, Raids had a condition damage meta while Fractals had a power damage meta, due to the nature of each fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > Seriously, what are you talking about? Boons are simply buffs that have a few extra rules applied to them (e.g. boon corruption, concentration, etc.). You can't possibly think that party buffing is a new concept. > > > > > > > > > > Its not a new concept but they are often not part of DPS builds in gw2. Therefore roles exist in gw2. Just that they are not trinity roles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But those same roles exist in trinity games under the umbrella of "DPS". That's what I keep telling you. The tank and healer roles are stripped away and all you have left is "DPS". Our poor attempts at "tanking" and "healing" in raid encounters are nothing but a pale shadow, and evidence that trinity is the way to go (why else introduce it to the raids that were never going to be?). > > > > > > > > We're talking in circles here. This has all been said already. > > > > > > Im not sure what you mean when you say, "raids that were never going to be." > > > > > > Anet said pre launch that gw2 would have its own version of raids. The equivalent of raids in other games. Unfortunately the content intended to fulfill that role was insufficient to the task and so Anet went back to the drawing board. > > > > > > -------------- > > > > > > The game didnt replace trinity roles with just dps. It created a new, more dynamic, system in which a single character needs to be able to dps, tank, heal, buff, debuff, and cc situationally, at need. > > > > I mean that sounds really great and all (almost like a slogan!), but when you use the words "tank" and "heal" to apply to what all classes in GW2 do as a matter of course, again, those are all things that DPS classes in trinity games do as well. Calling it "new" and "dynamic" doesn't alter the fact that nearly all builds in this game fall under the broad category of "DPS". The fact that you are capable of using skills that heal does not make you a healer. Nor does putting toughness and vitality on your gear make you a tank (it makes you _tanky_ - two different things!). > > A character here needs to be able to handle aggro when he gets it, passing it off to another when the boss' attention becomes overwhelming. The character may then heal himself, or even others, provide group wide defensive buffs, and, of course offensive buffs, debuffs, and CC. > > In another game I played where true trinity play was purely optional, more of a crutch for those players less able to adapt quickly to changing fight dynamics, we used the term wolfpack tactics to describe a common approach to big boss fights. Any member of the party could expect to get aggro and was expected to be able to handle it for at least a while. Other members of the party would be expected to take aggro away from another if the heat got to be too much for them. Any member of the party might be expected to support those taking the most heat with a heal or defensive buff (or a cc or debuff on the boss) all of them while carrying their weight in ablating the boss' health pool. > > The boss focus on attacking the one person in the group that he is least able to hurt while ignoring, to an extent, the actual threat is a simplification crutch intended to water group play down to make it more manageable. You haven't established how it "waters down" group play. Simply calling it a crutch doesn't define it as such. "Wolf-pack" tactics may be fun from time to time, but they are also easily exploited in a game like this where all classes are designed to take care of themselves as opposed to necessarily working as unit for all to survive. Different story if the boss gets loose from your tank (I mean, that's why he's there, right?). In order for wolf-pack to work, enemy stats must be watered down sufficiently (or, in the case of action combat, damage must be sufficiently predictable to be avoidable to a degree) for all classes to handle the boss, at least for several seconds at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Doctor Hide.6345" : You don't have to wait long for certain roles to fill your party/squad in GW2? Please just look up the raid- and fractal-master-tier-sections of the GW2-LFG. You will always have people waiting for chronos and/or druids all the time. While GW2 doesn't have the typical trinity, it has all problems trinity-based games have because the professions in GW2 are vastly unbalanced. > > > > No you're confusing group composition preference and necessity. Quite a few raids are doable without druids and chronos. You can take a combination of renegade support, firebrand support and necromancer support if you really wanted to. But most groups will field druid + chrono because its well established and works. As always if you don't want to join their squads make our own if you think you know what you're doing. From what I can tell you only seem know to copy and paste meta comps and then complain about them. > > > @"robertthebard.8150" and @"squallaus.8321" : Your Aion-example is kinda not helping. Aion isn't really a PvE-game; it's focused on PvP and in PvP, healing is a lot more difficult. You should search for other examples for PvE since PvE in Aion is pretty cheap even though there are some dungeons that are probably more difficult than raids in GW2 since they actively force you to communicate with each other. > > > *shrugs* feel free to link a video of hard Aion dungeon and some example from other games. Chances are they will look very dull compared to gw2 raids and fractals. > > > > I also kinda disagree with people who say that trinity-based combat has made GW2s PvE any better. Many raid-encounters are in fact your typical trinity-based tank 'n spank, which is quite boring. You also have druid and chrono as vastly overpowered specializations which mostly handle every single mechanic. Don't know about raid-cms, but the normal thing is very casual in comparison to other PvE-centered games. > > Current raid content may well look casual for more veteran players but they will in fact take new players typically several months to get into and get good at. If you think other wise then go make your own guild and raid group instead of constantly complaining about LFG requiring chronos and druids constantly. I somehow have the impression that you haven't played that many MMORPGs thus far since it seems that you aren't considering the community at all. While it is true that you can somewhat use Renegade and Firebrand as surrogate for Chronomancer and Druid, you still always have to consider the community. Especially the GW2-community is strongly infected by efficieny-madness and thus will almost always be reserved when it comes to using your suggested combination as surrogate. You already see enough people leaving fractal-groups if they see that the cute little paw-symbol in LFG doesn't turn out to be a Druid. The same will undoubtly happen in raids because people simply don't want to leave their comfort zone. While it is true that you can use the Renegade/Firebrand-combination in some raids, those combination is still rather niche since using the Chronomancer/Druid-combination is easier and more comfortable to use and less susceptible. You also seem to forget that the Druid/Chronomancer-combination also offers a lot of valuable utilities. So it's not just about personal preference; it's in fact about possibilities and balance. The reason why this community is that strongly efficieny-infected and strongly focused on meta-builds and -compositions is because raids don't fit into the game very well on a conceptual basis since they're a strong contrast to base-game-content both gameplay- and difficulty-wise. People generally aren't that familiar with how they work gameplay-wise since the base-game doesn't offer the same experience. That is why we often have such high requirements for LFG-squads. Mind you that these squads usually try to be far more hardcore than actual raiding-guilds. Nonetheless, raids in GW2 really aren't as hard as you claim. There is harder content in other games which are focused on instanced PvE. There are reasons why the OW-content is the main-selling-point of GW2. The point of instanced PvE-content is always to build up some muscle-memory and to internalize mechanics. I really doubt that new players need several months to get raids done. That's far too generalizing to begin with. If you're invested in a game and want to do stuff, you will check stuff like raid- and build-guides. It always depends on the specific player. Especially if said player already has experience from other MMORPGs, it won't be difficult to internalize raid-mechanics. As to Aion: Like I said, it's a game focused on PvP. Nonetheless it features some bosses which are in fact harder than GW2-raids since that game actually features a real tab-targetting trinity-system. With that, you can actually enforce people to communicate in MMORPGs. One boss in particular consisted of two snakes which used special skills on targeted players. You had to split your group because both snakes had to die at the same time; you have to do them simultaneously else your healer would get aggro and die because the specific snake would interrupt healing-spells. Other than that, both snakes would randomly target people (you can see which person the specific snake is targetting if said snake is your target) and use skills that would 1. set up a fire field and 2. would destroy that fire field, so you have to communicate to have people neutralize fire fields. That's only the first phase of that fight and I dare say it's easily on GW2s raid-niveau. Nonetheless, please keep in mind that Aion is a PvP-based game and has rather casual PvE to begin with. > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Doctor Hide.6345" : You don't have to wait long for certain roles to fill your party/squad in GW2? Please just look up the raid- and fractal-master-tier-sections of the GW2-LFG. You will always have people waiting for chronos and/or druids all the time. While GW2 doesn't have the typical trinity, it has all problems trinity-based games have because the professions in GW2 are vastly unbalanced. > > > They are not needed at those levels though like healers and tanks are in Trinity games. You can run those just fine without them, so what you are basically describing is people's preferences on what they are want and what is not necessary. They are choosing to wait that long when in reality they don't have to which is not the case for trinity games because each encounter forces you to wait for healers and tanks. You need these roles in raid-encounters. They're mandatory, else you'll die. You can do normal t4 fractals without some fancy setup, but having a dedicated healer already makes a huge difference. Now translate that to CMs. Fact is that meta-setups make stuff much easier. Sure, you can do stuff with exotic setup, but for a lot of people - at least when it comes to fractal-CMs and raids - it just isn't realistical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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