Lucentfir.7430 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > Why do people still forget how BADDDD!....5 man Q's use to be? & How BADDD it was exploited? It wasn't that long ago... i'm confused!! ??!! Because people want to get carried to higher rankings where they think they belong, by rolling over pug teams,with their cherry picked team. Not that it matters anymore, with how Anet doesn't care about competative state of the game(Exploit as much as you want, there's no real punishment for offenses.). When 5 man queues were around I remember all the people that got boosted from playing with 'friends' and a good portion of these people weren't good. I'm talking double cap, and walking into a lost fight and trying to cap 'not good'. The people using the win trader argument to justify a return of full premade mixed ranked queue also shoot themselves in the foot, because it shows just how small the community has shrunken if people keep running into the same known win traders, or it further proves my point how Anet doesn't give a hoot about ranked competative integrity if there are tons of win traders running around . So go ahead, add a mixed ranked queue back, but keep the solo ranked queue as a separate queue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted March 15, 2018 Author Share Posted March 15, 2018 @"Vieux P.1238" Thanks for the vouch on the amount of 5 man teams that were in play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilyanna.9361 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"Matiu.5703" said: > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > No guys, it's simple. > > Bring team que back. > > Watch the population drop even further > > And then laugh when the so called 'teams' are stuck in long ques and only get to play amongst themselves. > > > > When they finally go: "Wuh happened guys?111" > > We can finally say: "We told you so." > > > > So please, I want Anet to put team ques, just so I can watch the dumpster fire rise higher and laugh when it all falls about, and that bit of 'hope' for team ques crumble. > > > > You people are too desperate into thinking that team ques will save -anything- at this point. The issue is balance, not which one can get carried harder by a team or by themselves. > > Actually no one is saying that bringing 5q back will save everything but there is A LOT of people that is asking for it because it is clearly not satisfied from this system. What is your problem with it? > Nobody will force you to play against 5 premade, you will be able to continue your rng solo q :) > There are no enough people to support a 5q? Maybe the waits will be long at the beginning but if a lot of people is asking for it, why you have to deny it just because you don't want it? I would prefere to wait 5/10 mins for a good game (in the meantime I do something else) than playing a whole sesone with 1/2 mins solo q, like the one just ended, because it is not funny for many, MANY reasons. > And if the request of people asking for something that will emprove their experience bothers you, you have problems. Actually I don't have issues, because I haven't leaned towards either side. I think the people that are opting for just solo ques are just as desperate as the other side. Don't try to fool anyone here. Even if they brought team ques back nothing would change. It's not changing balance issues. It's not changing wintrading. It's not changing hacking. And I'll be damned to believe that people that left this game will actually come back. Those pros ain't coming back. The people that left aren't coming back. So, let me ask you, what is YOUR problem? Because, I don't give two fucks. I play all content, so PvP going down is not going to effect my gameplay. I can WvW, PvE, or do the smart thing and play a different competitive game. So what's your excuse? What happens if this doesn't fix the issue? What if people don't come back like you are predicting. What will you have to say then? I want to see yours and anyone else's back up plan for this idea, if it goes up and flames. I want to see what would their excuse be at that point. TDLR: I don't believe a single moment people will suddenly pick PvP back up again solely because of team ques. I was born at night, but not last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rank eleven monk.9502 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > Oh, i didn't know those statistics existed, but they pretty much confirm my experience then. I had better win rates with solo/duo than teams. The Algorithm was doing its job apparently. > > > This only makes Arena Net's choice more unjustifiable. > > > I had 8 guild mates that would regularly do PvP with me in guild teams (we'd rotate) and a few more that played less often. Of those 10-15 players, only ONE plays PvP regularly. It an't me either. I've not touched PvP once this last season. > > > > > > The worse part, the part that really stings is that PvP was fun, was cool to play with friends, and a lot of my old mates actually quit the game entirely as well, and are now playing stuff like Warframe, Overwatch and LoL. And because of the damage done, the accumulation of errors, PvP is unlikely to ever bounce back. > > > > Good premade > Hey guys lets make a premade > pubs > > > > I suspect that when you queue as a premade, system in the first place tries to match you vs another premade with similar average rating. When it fails, it expands a bit and puts you vs a premade with different skill level. If you are a "casual" premade, you end up stomped by some hardcore guys. But then when it even fails to find you another premade, it throws you some random pubs. Can pubs win with a premade? I guess thay can. But I think this mostly happens when a casual premade assembled on map chat gets pitted vs random solo guys from platinum rank. I sit in gold from 2-3 seasons and I never was above that. And from my own experience I can tell that 4 or 5 man premade thrown vs solos is a stomped game even before the gates open. I dont remember when was the last time I seen a game where all solos won vs a 4+ premade. Did I ever? I heard people claiming it happens, so as I described above, I suspect this may happen when all or most solos are platinum at least and they simply dominate all 1v1's during the match. > > > > I understand that not being able to play ranked with a full premade is a bad thing. And I agree with that. But this is a necessary evil in a game where PvP population is mediocre in size at best. There are not enough people to keep the premade only queue busy. And if you keep feeding pubs to premades, pubs will leave sooner rather than later. And I am fairly certain that, as in any game, there are more pubs than hardcore and skilled PvP-ers (take a look at tournaments participation) and utlimately this is what matters more. > > > > its mediocre population because they removed team queue... cause and effect. > > Just a few photos though having a quick scrimmage through my desktop in regards to claims regarding winning against premades. >  >  >  >  >  > > That was taken from the last 100 photos I have, I have thousands of screenshots. As you can see, most are complete blowouts favoring the "pugs". You are trying to justify yourself with screenshots from the current unranked arena? Are you trolling or what? Show me similar screenshots from ranked seasons when we had 5 man queue too. I literally had one win in hundreds of games against a 5 man premade. Also lol you having thousands of screenshots like this, love the irrelevant hyperboles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted March 15, 2018 Author Share Posted March 15, 2018 1. You'll never stop win trading from happening in any game mode, in any game, but you can prevent yourself from being effected by it, when you que as a 5 man team. 2. You'd be surprised how many people WANT to play this game if it were cleaned up a bit. Also, it isn't about bringing back players at this point, it's about keeping new ones. 3. It isn't about fixing anything, it's about being able to take preventative action to protect yourself from win trading and being able to play with a group of friends. 4. This plan going up in flames? How about this, We'd like to see YOU explain a hypothetical situation where this plan could go up in flames. Let's hear that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rank eleven monk.9502 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Hockmed.9417" said: > > 1. Wintrading doesn't exist because of the fact there are no 5 man team queues. It exists because Anet for some reason decided not to crush it out of existence when it became public knowledge (or even private knowledge. if you think they can't see it happening you don't understand IT, and if they didn't know how to look that's just embarrassing) > > 2. 5 man queues are not fun to play against for the 95% of the population who doesn't have access to consistent groups of players that want to or can queue all the time. > > 3. ATs have replaced ranked for 5 man queues and the associated rewards. That system will continue to be adjusted and broadened now that the tech has appeared in this game. > > 4. The longer Anet refuses to have a backbone and require players to learn how to play the game at a high level to get high level rewards, the more casual the population will become - simply because the population never has to get good to get rewards. > > 5. As the population becomes more casual (and as a side effect becomes less skillful), ranked will become ever more like unranked. This bleeds players, especially the competitive ones that ranked was always intended for, and the community shrinks even more. Smaller community = less access to 5 man team queues (can't form a team with nobody around to team up with) = less fun for new players because the few teams that do exist will constantly farm them = never growing the pvp community. > 2. Stop throwing around ridiculously over exaggerated statistics "95% of players solo que." How about this statistic that is visually obvious to any player setting foot into the mists during the first week of gameplay Can you just stop being so ignorant about this? I literally supplied you official quotes and numbers and you just simply ignored it, now following up with more incomprehensive and pointless claims Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted March 15, 2018 Author Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > > Oh, i didn't know those statistics existed, but they pretty much confirm my experience then. I had better win rates with solo/duo than teams. The Algorithm was doing its job apparently. > > > > This only makes Arena Net's choice more unjustifiable. > > > > I had 8 guild mates that would regularly do PvP with me in guild teams (we'd rotate) and a few more that played less often. Of those 10-15 players, only ONE plays PvP regularly. It an't me either. I've not touched PvP once this last season. > > > > > > > > The worse part, the part that really stings is that PvP was fun, was cool to play with friends, and a lot of my old mates actually quit the game entirely as well, and are now playing stuff like Warframe, Overwatch and LoL. And because of the damage done, the accumulation of errors, PvP is unlikely to ever bounce back. > > > > > > Good premade > Hey guys lets make a premade > pubs > > > > > > I suspect that when you queue as a premade, system in the first place tries to match you vs another premade with similar average rating. When it fails, it expands a bit and puts you vs a premade with different skill level. If you are a "casual" premade, you end up stomped by some hardcore guys. But then when it even fails to find you another premade, it throws you some random pubs. Can pubs win with a premade? I guess thay can. But I think this mostly happens when a casual premade assembled on map chat gets pitted vs random solo guys from platinum rank. I sit in gold from 2-3 seasons and I never was above that. And from my own experience I can tell that 4 or 5 man premade thrown vs solos is a stomped game even before the gates open. I dont remember when was the last time I seen a game where all solos won vs a 4+ premade. Did I ever? I heard people claiming it happens, so as I described above, I suspect this may happen when all or most solos are platinum at least and they simply dominate all 1v1's during the match. > > > > > > I understand that not being able to play ranked with a full premade is a bad thing. And I agree with that. But this is a necessary evil in a game where PvP population is mediocre in size at best. There are not enough people to keep the premade only queue busy. And if you keep feeding pubs to premades, pubs will leave sooner rather than later. And I am fairly certain that, as in any game, there are more pubs than hardcore and skilled PvP-ers (take a look at tournaments participation) and utlimately this is what matters more. > > > > > > > its mediocre population because they removed team queue... cause and effect. > > > > Just a few photos though having a quick scrimmage through my desktop in regards to claims regarding winning against premades. > >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > > > > That was taken from the last 100 photos I have, I have thousands of screenshots. As you can see, most are complete blowouts favoring the "pugs". > You are trying to justify yourself with screenshots from the current unranked arena? Are you trolling or what? Show me similar screenshots from ranked seasons when we had 5 man queue too. I literally had one win in hundreds of games against a 5 man premade. Also lol you having thousands of screenshots like this, love the irrelevant hyperboles > I would definitely expect organized teams who have taken the time to practice as organized teams, in a team game mode, to get wins over solo ques, and they should be reaping the benefits of their effort. Not playing in a team and choosing to solo vs. teams in a team game mode was at your own risk. Hey, at least you had a CHOICE to play solo or in a team. As of now, people who want to play in a team, have no CHOICE but to play solo past 1600 and to eat win trade losses. Which scenario is really more fair to the general player base again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XxsdgxX.8109 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 You want 5 man teams so you can have much more frequent cancerous compositions like the ones played at ATs? 24/7 Double Mirage, FB, Scourge, Holo Nope, pass You actually have much more build variety with a solo queue right now and less stomps. Just make it true solo queue now since you can still duo. I'm confident in saying that most people actually enjoy playing any game with *Match Making* as solo. Reminder that **ATs** still exist. And no, people didn't leave because of solo/duo queue. Anyone that wanted to take this PvP seriously (competitively) left because the balance was absolutely terrible and ANET never gave it proper attention. Having Conquest as the only game mode is part of the problem as well, it's way too complicated for most people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucentfir.7430 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > > > > Oh, i didn't know those statistics existed, but they pretty much confirm my experience then. I had better win rates with solo/duo than teams. The Algorithm was doing its job apparently. > > > > > This only makes Arena Net's choice more unjustifiable. > > > > > I had 8 guild mates that would regularly do PvP with me in guild teams (we'd rotate) and a few more that played less often. Of those 10-15 players, only ONE plays PvP regularly. It an't me either. I've not touched PvP once this last season. > > > > > > > > > > The worse part, the part that really stings is that PvP was fun, was cool to play with friends, and a lot of my old mates actually quit the game entirely as well, and are now playing stuff like Warframe, Overwatch and LoL. And because of the damage done, the accumulation of errors, PvP is unlikely to ever bounce back. > > > > > > > > Good premade > Hey guys lets make a premade > pubs > > > > > > > > I suspect that when you queue as a premade, system in the first place tries to match you vs another premade with similar average rating. When it fails, it expands a bit and puts you vs a premade with different skill level. If you are a "casual" premade, you end up stomped by some hardcore guys. But then when it even fails to find you another premade, it throws you some random pubs. Can pubs win with a premade? I guess thay can. But I think this mostly happens when a casual premade assembled on map chat gets pitted vs random solo guys from platinum rank. I sit in gold from 2-3 seasons and I never was above that. And from my own experience I can tell that 4 or 5 man premade thrown vs solos is a stomped game even before the gates open. I dont remember when was the last time I seen a game where all solos won vs a 4+ premade. Did I ever? I heard people claiming it happens, so as I described above, I suspect this may happen when all or most solos are platinum at least and they simply dominate all 1v1's during the match. > > > > > > > > I understand that not being able to play ranked with a full premade is a bad thing. And I agree with that. But this is a necessary evil in a game where PvP population is mediocre in size at best. There are not enough people to keep the premade only queue busy. And if you keep feeding pubs to premades, pubs will leave sooner rather than later. And I am fairly certain that, as in any game, there are more pubs than hardcore and skilled PvP-ers (take a look at tournaments participation) and utlimately this is what matters more. > > > > > > > > > > its mediocre population because they removed team queue... cause and effect. > > > > > > Just a few photos though having a quick scrimmage through my desktop in regards to claims regarding winning against premades. > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > > > > > That was taken from the last 100 photos I have, I have thousands of screenshots. As you can see, most are complete blowouts favoring the "pugs". > > You are trying to justify yourself with screenshots from the current unranked arena? Are you trolling or what? Show me similar screenshots from ranked seasons when we had 5 man queue too. I literally had one win in hundreds of games against a 5 man premade. Also lol you having thousands of screenshots like this, love the irrelevant hyperboles > > > > I would definitely expect organized teams who have taken the time to practice as organized teams, in a team game mode, to get wins over solo ques, and they should be reaping the benefits of their effort. > > Not playing in a team and choosing to solo vs. teams in a team game mode was at your own risk. Hey, at least you had a CHOICE to play solo or in a team. As of now, people who want to play in a team, have no CHOICE but to play solo past 1600 and to eat win trade losses. > > __*Which scenario is really more fair to the general player base again?*__ You know what's fair to the general player base of Spvp? Anet actually doing something to offending exploiters/hackers/win traders, instead you're giving up and saying okay fine, exploiting and win trading is fine and doesn't need to be acted on to discourage the behavior. I like how you're calling it a team game yet say it like solo queuers are playing it absolutely alone, which is false. You get a team, it's just with four other random people. Having a pre-selected team is a advantage that doesn't belong in ranked, if ranked is supposed to be skill based. Now if it had its own mixed queue, that would also be ideal. Though at this point, I'd say just attach rewards from ranked game mode to unranked at a lesser pip gain. Spvp is only really played for the rewards nowadays anyway. Considering that's why people want to play with friends, even if they might be of lesser skill, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted March 15, 2018 Author Share Posted March 15, 2018 **THE CLOWN FIESTA REVENGE** True Story ^ I was standing out in this field, watching 5 kids playing kickball against 5 other kids, while a large group of other kids were watching and waiting their turn. Then I saw 5 new kids arrive together all at once, and they were wearing identical jerseys. One of the teams challenged the 5 kids wearing the jerseys and lost the match to them. Then an argument broke out: "This isn't fair, they are a real team." The kids wearing the jerseys said back to them: "But you are also a team, we have just practiced more." The kids said back to them: "NOT FAIR NOT WAH WAH WAH." The jerseys looked around confused and said: "But isn't that point of competitive games?" It was then that a random gym teacher came out into the field and told everyone that he had to shut down the kickball game because there weren't enough teams amongst all of these teams to support playing the team game that they were all playing. The jerseys walked and said: "Fine have it your way." That very next day, all the children showed back up to play again. This time I noticed the gym teacher was outside and he was randomizing the teams in attempts to balance the games so there were no blow outs. In the next match, he had selected two players that I recognized from that jersey team and put them with three kids that I had never seen before. Then he called out the names of five other children. When he called out the last name, I noticed one of the jersey players amongst the crowd of children duck his head down, pull out a clown mask from his shirt and put it on, and began to walk towards the field. The gym teacher said: "Oh you must be new, here let me put you on this team." For some reason, I was the only one that noticed he was a jersey player playing with a mask and under a fake name. When the match started, I noticed the jersey with the clown mask was purposely kicking the ball in the wrong direction. Sometimes he would run in to his own teammates or block a pass and play it off as an accident. It would seem that he was sabotaging the team he was on so his real teammates on the opposing team could easily win the game. When that match ended, the coach called out names for the next two teams. I heard him call out the real name of the clown jersey player and I watched that kid walk behind the crowd where no one could see him and he took his mask off and started running towards the field. The coach then called out names for the opposing team and I saw two other jersey players do the same thing, they ducked down, put on clown masks, and began running towards the field under false names. The same exact thing happened, the kids wearing clown masks were throwing games for their real teammates. I came back to watch these games for the next week, out of sheer raw curiosity. Over the course of that week, the jersey players started making new friends and started involving them in the clown fiesta. More and more children began showing up with clown masks and alternate names ready to play under. The more players that joined the clown fiesta, the more kids that would leave and never come back. It would seem that there were smart children, some of which who chose to don the clown masks and others who desperately tried to point out to the gym teacher what was happening. But that gym teacher would always respond with: "It is against the rules to publicly humiliate anyone so until we have real proof, it isn't happening." Some of those smart kids would say: "But the proof is right here if you let me take his clown mask off." The gym teacher would say: "If you do that, I'll have to send you home and not let you play anymore." I began to wonder if the gym teacher was in on the clown fiesta and if he was actually protecting it. Then there were the.. slower kids. The ones who seemed to not notice what was going on at all. They didn't notice the obvious game throwing activity. They didn't notice that these players were making too many mistakes during a single match for it to be real, and they never thought the clown masks were suspicious in any way. During the last day that I sat and watched the clown fiesta, one of the slower children said aloud to everyone: "Something is wrong with these matches.! This is the WORST match making I've ever seen! Our gym teacher is sooo bad at making matches! I always get blow out matches and I get these bad clown players on my team! I don't want bad clown players on my team anymore! We need to fix the gym teacher's match making capabilities! But I am still happy that I don't have to play against the jerseys anymore!" I watched in horror as the gym teacher sat back and started taking all forms of suggestions while rubbing his chin in confusion and contemplation. I heard many suggestions thrown at the coach but I knew that they would not work because I had witnessed what the real problem was. That's when I decided to come forward and tell the gym teacher what I had seen and what needed to be done. I told him everything about what I had witnessed and learned. I gave him one suggestion that would fix the problem. One suggestion that was simply to revert the decision that he made, that started the clown fiesta to begin with. I said to him: "Just let the children pick their own teams. This way they can pick the friends they want to play with and they don't need to pick a bad clown player." But then one of the slower children looked at me in anger and said: "No! I don't want to lose because of the jerseys anymore!" I said to him: "But the jerseys are the clown players who are making you lose your matches." The child said again: "No! I don't want to lose because of the jerseys anymore!" Then the gym teacher looked at me and said: "We can't do that because there aren't enough teams out of all of these teams to be able to play this team game that we are playing all day." I started walking back to my car and thought to myself: "You know it's no wonder the number of kids playing in this field shrinks day to day. It feels good to abandon such an irrational and illogical clown fiesta."  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockmed.9417 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > 1. Win trading exists for many reasons including psychological aspects as well as game engine design flaws. **But win trading cannot negatively effect those who are qued as a 5 man team.** <- And that is preventative healthcare my friend. Hey it's your own choice if you don't take advantage of 5 man teams enabled. Disabling 5 man teams removes any choice for all players to prevent being gamed by match manipulation. > 2. Stop throwing around ridiculously over exaggerated statistics "95% of players solo que." How about this statistic that is visually obvious to any player setting foot into the mists during the first week of gameplay: 100 to 200 players are standing around queing spvp at any given point in time during the day. Every 4 to 5 hours an AT occurs with only a 25 minute interval to assemble and que a team. Despite this small amount of time "25 minutes per 4-5 hours" 10 to 15 teams show up and once this week I have seen as low as 8. If we were to be modest and say an average of 10 teams per AT, that's 50 players waiting around on scheduled times to que ATs. That is a large margin of the spvp player base and it would be much more if this could be done casually rather than 4-5 hour intervals. > 3. ATs are ATs. We are talking about ranked ques where it is now impossible to play & climb leaderboards legitimately without becoming involved in the social stigma of match manipulation. This past season, most of the non-cheating players I know who usually played in the 1650-1700 range were struggling to break gold 3 and stay bottom plat 1, which makes no sense considering the large exodus of players from Guild Wars 2. If anything, these older veteran players should be rising to the top the longer they stick around but mysteriously they are riding lower and lower on the leaderboards each season. This is due to the growth of Match Manipulation Meta. > 4. How is your 4. relevant? > 5. On the contraire, I get much better matches in unranked and almost everyone I've ever talked to agrees with this. It is because no one cares to match manipulate unranked matches. I think you are getting confused as to what is driving people away from ranked. You seem like one of those guys that still believes "the match maker is the problem." You should read up on match manipulation. Oh and stop with that contradiction! Are there not enough teams to realistically run 5 man teams? or are there so many that solo ques are being farmed by them? I mean seriously boys, pick one chose one, go with it. Stating both in the same breath makes no sense. > 6. You know what destroyed the community? Removing 5 man teams and then delivering a coup de grace of removing duo que past 1600. I'm sure that even Arenanet's numbers reflect the truth in that statement. 1. I agree that 5 man queues eliminate the possibility. Heavily punishing the practice with lifetime bans of accounts would have stopped it pretty fast too. 5 man queues are not the only solution as you seem to suggest. 2. Scheduled events requiring teams of 5 players is the only reason so many teams show up when they are about to start. Assuming that every player in the mists would queue in a team if 5 player queues were an option is the gross exaggeration. Why do I say that? The entire experience of the 5+ years of the game existing before ATs directly proves it. 3. Ranked queues present difficulty to climb equally to everyone participating as a solo player at the highest level. Wintraders will not effect outcomes if they are properly disciplined by Anet, which should have happened from the start. You cannot demand a feature be reinstated or reverted because of abuse, when that feature is obviously not the future of the game mode. 5 man queues were abused almost as heavily as wintrading abused season 10, except is was considered acceptable by the community because it was done by some of the top players carrying lesser players. 4. My point is relevant because skill level is a major factor in solo queue experience, and a major source of detraction with high level players. The skill level difference between a new player and a high level player is the reason the pvp scene doesn't grow (obviously there are other factors, but accessibility is a primary). Until Anet grows a backbone and decides to implement ways for establishing a baseline skill level for new players through tutorials this rift will continue to grow. The pvp community in this game is incredibly harsh on new and lower-skilled players, especially in ranked. I know when I experience that wall I don't want to queue anymore even though I'm around gold 3 and plat 1 skill level. 5. You obscured my point with your own bias. Getting farmed by 5 man teams reduces a new player's desire to continue in pvp. This leads to a stagnated community where, unless you are on an established team, you are less and less likely to find a team to join. With a small and shrinking population in the game mode, it further divides the community into the haves (with a team) and the havenots (can't find a decent team). Rewards are a heavy motivator to get better. The better you play, the faster you accumulate the rewards to the highest level. Getting farmed by premades all day quickly slams down a wall if you can't find a consistent team that can perform and compete with those already established teams. That makes those rewards inaccessible to the havenots, removes all desire to stay in the game mode, and makes queuing without a team miserable. Which is what the experience was for many (maybe most) when 5 man queuing was still a thing. That doesn't even touch on queue times. Remember what those were like for teams? lol 6. The community was in a shambles long before the changes you mentioned were implemented. Mostly due to Anet and their inaction on so many fronts. A lot of the responsibility also stems from many in the pvp community as well. Aside from a select few, the toxicity to new players combined with lack of any discernible method to establish a baseline of pvp skills and knowledge from Anet to introduce new players to the game mode allowed things to spiral well out of control. It had very little to do with queue sizes. Queue sizes changing were a result of the problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucentfir.7430 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > **THE CLOWN FIESTA REVENGE** > True Story ^ > > I was standing out in this field, watching 5 kids playing kickball against 5 other kids, while a large group of other kids were watching and waiting their turn. Then I saw 5 new kids arrive together all at once, and they were wearing identical jerseys. One of the teams challenged the 5 kids wearing the jerseys and lost the match to them. Then an argument broke out: "This isn't fair, they are a real team." The kids wearing the jerseys said back to them: "But you are also a team, we have just practiced more." The kids said back to them: "NOT FAIR NOT WAH WAH WAH." The jerseys looked around confused and said: "But isn't that point of competitive games?" It was then that a random gym teacher came out into the field and told everyone that he had to shut down the kickball game because there weren't enough teams amongst all of these teams to support playing the team game that they were all playing. The jerseys walked and said: "Fine have it your way." > > That very next day, all the children showed back up to play again. This time I noticed the gym teacher was outside and he was randomizing the teams in attempts to balance the games so there were no blow outs. In the next match, he had selected two players that I recognized from that jersey team and put them with three kids that I had never seen before. Then he called out the names of five other children. When he called out the last name, I noticed one of the jersey players amongst the crowd of children duck his head down, pull out a clown mask from his shirt and put it on, and began to walk towards the field. The gym teacher said: "Oh you must be new, here let me put you on this team." For some reason, I was the only one that noticed he was a jersey player playing with a mask and under a fake name. When the match started, I noticed the jersey with the clown mask was purposely kicking the ball in the wrong direction. Sometimes he would run in to his own teammates or block a pass and play it off as an accident. It would seem that he was sabotaging the team he was on so his real teammates on the opposing team could easily win the game. When that match ended, the coach called out names for the next two teams. I heard him call out the real name of the clown jersey player and I watched that kid walk behind the crowd where no one could see him and he took his mask off and started running towards the field. The coach then called out names for the opposing team and I saw two other jersey players do the same thing, they ducked down, put on clown masks, and began running towards the field under false names. The same exact thing happened, the kids wearing clown masks were throwing games for their real teammates. > > I came back to watch these games for the next week, out of sheer raw curiosity. Over the course of that week, the jersey players started making new friends and started involving them in the clown fiesta. More and more children began showing up with clown masks and alternate names ready to play under. The more players that joined the clown fiesta, the more kids that would leave and never come back. It would seem that there were smart children, some of which who chose to don the clown masks and others who desperately tried to point out to the gym teacher what was happening. But that gym teacher would always respond with: "It is against the rules to publicly humiliate anyone so until we have real proof, it isn't happening." Some of those smart kids would say: "But the proof is right here if you let me take his clown mask off." The gym teacher would say: "If you do that, I'll have to send you home and not let you play anymore." I began to wonder if the gym teacher was in on the clown fiesta and if he was actually protecting it. Then there were the.. slower kids. The ones who seemed to not notice what was going on at all. They didn't notice the obvious game throwing activity. They didn't notice that these players were making too many mistakes during a single match for it to be real, and they never thought the clown masks were suspicious in any way. During the last day that I sat and watched the clown fiesta, one of the slower children said aloud to everyone: "Something is wrong with these matches.! This is the WORST match making I've ever seen! Our gym teacher is sooo bad at making matches! I always get blow out matches and I get these bad clown players on my team! I don't want bad clown players on my team anymore! We need to fix the gym teacher's match making capabilities! But I am still happy that I don't have to play against the jerseys anymore!" I watched in horror as the gym teacher sat back and started taking all forms of suggestions while rubbing his chin in confusion and contemplation. I heard many suggestions thrown at the coach but I knew that they would not work because I had witnessed what the real problem was. That's when I decided to come forward and tell the gym teacher what I had seen and what needed to be done. I told him everything about what I had witnessed and learned. I gave him one suggestion that would fix the problem. One suggestion that was simply to revert the decision that he made, that started the clown fiesta to begin with. I said to him: "Just let the children pick their own teams. This way they can pick the friends they want to play with and they don't need to pick a bad clown player." But then one of the slower children looked at me in anger and said: "No! I don't want to lose because of the jerseys anymore!" I said to him: "But the jerseys are the clown players who are making you lose your matches." The child said again: "No! I don't want to lose because of the jerseys anymore!" Then the gym teacher looked at me and said: "We can't do that because there aren't enough teams out of all of these teams to be able to play this team game that we are playing all day." I started walking back to my car and thought to myself: "You know it's no wonder the number of kids playing in this field shrinks day to day. It feels good to abandon such an irrational and illogical clown fiesta." > >  > > > > > > > That image at the bottom, MFW when the OP derails his own thread with a story/wall of text, and yet provides no point, or anything meaningful to the discussion/arguments. Nice write though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allias.1420 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > > > > Oh, i didn't know those statistics existed, but they pretty much confirm my experience then. I had better win rates with solo/duo than teams. The Algorithm was doing its job apparently. > > > > > This only makes Arena Net's choice more unjustifiable. > > > > > I had 8 guild mates that would regularly do PvP with me in guild teams (we'd rotate) and a few more that played less often. Of those 10-15 players, only ONE plays PvP regularly. It an't me either. I've not touched PvP once this last season. > > > > > > > > > > The worse part, the part that really stings is that PvP was fun, was cool to play with friends, and a lot of my old mates actually quit the game entirely as well, and are now playing stuff like Warframe, Overwatch and LoL. And because of the damage done, the accumulation of errors, PvP is unlikely to ever bounce back. > > > > > > > > Good premade > Hey guys lets make a premade > pubs > > > > > > > > I suspect that when you queue as a premade, system in the first place tries to match you vs another premade with similar average rating. When it fails, it expands a bit and puts you vs a premade with different skill level. If you are a "casual" premade, you end up stomped by some hardcore guys. But then when it even fails to find you another premade, it throws you some random pubs. Can pubs win with a premade? I guess thay can. But I think this mostly happens when a casual premade assembled on map chat gets pitted vs random solo guys from platinum rank. I sit in gold from 2-3 seasons and I never was above that. And from my own experience I can tell that 4 or 5 man premade thrown vs solos is a stomped game even before the gates open. I dont remember when was the last time I seen a game where all solos won vs a 4+ premade. Did I ever? I heard people claiming it happens, so as I described above, I suspect this may happen when all or most solos are platinum at least and they simply dominate all 1v1's during the match. > > > > > > > > I understand that not being able to play ranked with a full premade is a bad thing. And I agree with that. But this is a necessary evil in a game where PvP population is mediocre in size at best. There are not enough people to keep the premade only queue busy. And if you keep feeding pubs to premades, pubs will leave sooner rather than later. And I am fairly certain that, as in any game, there are more pubs than hardcore and skilled PvP-ers (take a look at tournaments participation) and utlimately this is what matters more. > > > > > > > > > > its mediocre population because they removed team queue... cause and effect. > > > > > > Just a few photos though having a quick scrimmage through my desktop in regards to claims regarding winning against premades. > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > > > > > That was taken from the last 100 photos I have, I have thousands of screenshots. As you can see, most are complete blowouts favoring the "pugs". > > You are trying to justify yourself with screenshots from the current unranked arena? Are you trolling or what? Show me similar screenshots from ranked seasons when we had 5 man queue too. I literally had one win in hundreds of games against a 5 man premade. Also lol you having thousands of screenshots like this, love the irrelevant hyperboles > > > > I would definitely expect organized teams who have taken the time to practice as organized teams, in a team game mode, to get wins over solo ques, and they should be reaping the benefits of their effort. > > Not playing in a team and choosing to solo vs. teams in a team game mode was at your own risk. Hey, at least you had a CHOICE to play solo or in a team. As of now, people who want to play in a team, have no CHOICE but to play solo past 1600 and to eat win trade losses. > > Which scenario is really more fair to the general player base again? you're completely shltting all over solo players mate. What about the pvpers who's friends don't play guild wars and can't find a decent, active team to play with? F*k them, right?? They don't get a choice, let them face well organised teams because f*k it, is what you are saying, essentially Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"allias.1420" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, i didn't know those statistics existed, but they pretty much confirm my experience then. I had better win rates with solo/duo than teams. The Algorithm was doing its job apparently. > > > > > > This only makes Arena Net's choice more unjustifiable. > > > > > > I had 8 guild mates that would regularly do PvP with me in guild teams (we'd rotate) and a few more that played less often. Of those 10-15 players, only ONE plays PvP regularly. It an't me either. I've not touched PvP once this last season. > > > > > > > > > > > > The worse part, the part that really stings is that PvP was fun, was cool to play with friends, and a lot of my old mates actually quit the game entirely as well, and are now playing stuff like Warframe, Overwatch and LoL. And because of the damage done, the accumulation of errors, PvP is unlikely to ever bounce back. > > > > > > > > > > Good premade > Hey guys lets make a premade > pubs > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that when you queue as a premade, system in the first place tries to match you vs another premade with similar average rating. When it fails, it expands a bit and puts you vs a premade with different skill level. If you are a "casual" premade, you end up stomped by some hardcore guys. But then when it even fails to find you another premade, it throws you some random pubs. Can pubs win with a premade? I guess thay can. But I think this mostly happens when a casual premade assembled on map chat gets pitted vs random solo guys from platinum rank. I sit in gold from 2-3 seasons and I never was above that. And from my own experience I can tell that 4 or 5 man premade thrown vs solos is a stomped game even before the gates open. I dont remember when was the last time I seen a game where all solos won vs a 4+ premade. Did I ever? I heard people claiming it happens, so as I described above, I suspect this may happen when all or most solos are platinum at least and they simply dominate all 1v1's during the match. > > > > > > > > > > I understand that not being able to play ranked with a full premade is a bad thing. And I agree with that. But this is a necessary evil in a game where PvP population is mediocre in size at best. There are not enough people to keep the premade only queue busy. And if you keep feeding pubs to premades, pubs will leave sooner rather than later. And I am fairly certain that, as in any game, there are more pubs than hardcore and skilled PvP-ers (take a look at tournaments participation) and utlimately this is what matters more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > its mediocre population because they removed team queue... cause and effect. > > > > > > > > Just a few photos though having a quick scrimmage through my desktop in regards to claims regarding winning against premades. > > > >  > > > >  > > > >  > > > >  > > > >  > > > > > > > > That was taken from the last 100 photos I have, I have thousands of screenshots. As you can see, most are complete blowouts favoring the "pugs". > > > You are trying to justify yourself with screenshots from the current unranked arena? Are you trolling or what? Show me similar screenshots from ranked seasons when we had 5 man queue too. I literally had one win in hundreds of games against a 5 man premade. Also lol you having thousands of screenshots like this, love the irrelevant hyperboles > > > > > > > I would definitely expect organized teams who have taken the time to practice as organized teams, in a team game mode, to get wins over solo ques, and they should be reaping the benefits of their effort. > > > > Not playing in a team and choosing to solo vs. teams in a team game mode was at your own risk. Hey, at least you had a CHOICE to play solo or in a team. As of now, people who want to play in a team, have no CHOICE but to play solo past 1600 and to eat win trade losses. > > > > Which scenario is really more fair to the general player base again? > > you're completely shltting all over solo players mate. What about the pvpers who's friends don't play guild wars and can't find a decent, active team to play with? F*k them, right?? They don't get a choice, let them face well organised teams because f*k it, is what you are saying, essentially Not necessarily... Flex queues work pretty good. As long as people give them a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted March 16, 2018 Author Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"allias.1420" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, i didn't know those statistics existed, but they pretty much confirm my experience then. I had better win rates with solo/duo than teams. The Algorithm was doing its job apparently. > > > > > > This only makes Arena Net's choice more unjustifiable. > > > > > > I had 8 guild mates that would regularly do PvP with me in guild teams (we'd rotate) and a few more that played less often. Of those 10-15 players, only ONE plays PvP regularly. It an't me either. I've not touched PvP once this last season. > > > > > > > > > > > > The worse part, the part that really stings is that PvP was fun, was cool to play with friends, and a lot of my old mates actually quit the game entirely as well, and are now playing stuff like Warframe, Overwatch and LoL. And because of the damage done, the accumulation of errors, PvP is unlikely to ever bounce back. > > > > > > > > > > Good premade > Hey guys lets make a premade > pubs > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that when you queue as a premade, system in the first place tries to match you vs another premade with similar average rating. When it fails, it expands a bit and puts you vs a premade with different skill level. If you are a "casual" premade, you end up stomped by some hardcore guys. But then when it even fails to find you another premade, it throws you some random pubs. Can pubs win with a premade? I guess thay can. But I think this mostly happens when a casual premade assembled on map chat gets pitted vs random solo guys from platinum rank. I sit in gold from 2-3 seasons and I never was above that. And from my own experience I can tell that 4 or 5 man premade thrown vs solos is a stomped game even before the gates open. I dont remember when was the last time I seen a game where all solos won vs a 4+ premade. Did I ever? I heard people claiming it happens, so as I described above, I suspect this may happen when all or most solos are platinum at least and they simply dominate all 1v1's during the match. > > > > > > > > > > I understand that not being able to play ranked with a full premade is a bad thing. And I agree with that. But this is a necessary evil in a game where PvP population is mediocre in size at best. There are not enough people to keep the premade only queue busy. And if you keep feeding pubs to premades, pubs will leave sooner rather than later. And I am fairly certain that, as in any game, there are more pubs than hardcore and skilled PvP-ers (take a look at tournaments participation) and utlimately this is what matters more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > its mediocre population because they removed team queue... cause and effect. > > > > > > > > Just a few photos though having a quick scrimmage through my desktop in regards to claims regarding winning against premades. > > > >  > > > >  > > > >  > > > >  > > > >  > > > > > > > > That was taken from the last 100 photos I have, I have thousands of screenshots. As you can see, most are complete blowouts favoring the "pugs". > > > You are trying to justify yourself with screenshots from the current unranked arena? Are you trolling or what? Show me similar screenshots from ranked seasons when we had 5 man queue too. I literally had one win in hundreds of games against a 5 man premade. Also lol you having thousands of screenshots like this, love the irrelevant hyperboles > > > > > > > I would definitely expect organized teams who have taken the time to practice as organized teams, in a team game mode, to get wins over solo ques, and they should be reaping the benefits of their effort. > > > > Not playing in a team and choosing to solo vs. teams in a team game mode was at your own risk. Hey, at least you had a CHOICE to play solo or in a team. As of now, people who want to play in a team, have no CHOICE but to play solo past 1600 and to eat win trade losses. > > > > Which scenario is really more fair to the general player base again? > > you're completely shltting all over solo players mate. What about the pvpers who's friends don't play guild wars and can't find a decent, active team to play with? F*k them, right?? They don't get a choice, let them face well organised teams because f*k it, is what you are saying, essentially You're seriously missing the biggest point made in this thread and that is that you are against 5 man or greater teams anyway, regardless of solo que. Open your eyes, pay attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choovanski.5462 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"allias.1420" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, i didn't know those statistics existed, but they pretty much confirm my experience then. I had better win rates with solo/duo than teams. The Algorithm was doing its job apparently. > > > > > > > This only makes Arena Net's choice more unjustifiable. > > > > > > > I had 8 guild mates that would regularly do PvP with me in guild teams (we'd rotate) and a few more that played less often. Of those 10-15 players, only ONE plays PvP regularly. It an't me either. I've not touched PvP once this last season. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The worse part, the part that really stings is that PvP was fun, was cool to play with friends, and a lot of my old mates actually quit the game entirely as well, and are now playing stuff like Warframe, Overwatch and LoL. And because of the damage done, the accumulation of errors, PvP is unlikely to ever bounce back. > > > > > > > > > > > > Good premade > Hey guys lets make a premade > pubs > > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that when you queue as a premade, system in the first place tries to match you vs another premade with similar average rating. When it fails, it expands a bit and puts you vs a premade with different skill level. If you are a "casual" premade, you end up stomped by some hardcore guys. But then when it even fails to find you another premade, it throws you some random pubs. Can pubs win with a premade? I guess thay can. But I think this mostly happens when a casual premade assembled on map chat gets pitted vs random solo guys from platinum rank. I sit in gold from 2-3 seasons and I never was above that. And from my own experience I can tell that 4 or 5 man premade thrown vs solos is a stomped game even before the gates open. I dont remember when was the last time I seen a game where all solos won vs a 4+ premade. Did I ever? I heard people claiming it happens, so as I described above, I suspect this may happen when all or most solos are platinum at least and they simply dominate all 1v1's during the match. > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand that not being able to play ranked with a full premade is a bad thing. And I agree with that. But this is a necessary evil in a game where PvP population is mediocre in size at best. There are not enough people to keep the premade only queue busy. And if you keep feeding pubs to premades, pubs will leave sooner rather than later. And I am fairly certain that, as in any game, there are more pubs than hardcore and skilled PvP-ers (take a look at tournaments participation) and utlimately this is what matters more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > its mediocre population because they removed team queue... cause and effect. > > > > > > > > > > Just a few photos though having a quick scrimmage through my desktop in regards to claims regarding winning against premades. > > > > >  > > > > >  > > > > >  > > > > >  > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > That was taken from the last 100 photos I have, I have thousands of screenshots. As you can see, most are complete blowouts favoring the "pugs". > > > > You are trying to justify yourself with screenshots from the current unranked arena? Are you trolling or what? Show me similar screenshots from ranked seasons when we had 5 man queue too. I literally had one win in hundreds of games against a 5 man premade. Also lol you having thousands of screenshots like this, love the irrelevant hyperboles > > > > > > > > > > I would definitely expect organized teams who have taken the time to practice as organized teams, in a team game mode, to get wins over solo ques, and they should be reaping the benefits of their effort. > > > > > > Not playing in a team and choosing to solo vs. teams in a team game mode was at your own risk. Hey, at least you had a CHOICE to play solo or in a team. As of now, people who want to play in a team, have no CHOICE but to play solo past 1600 and to eat win trade losses. > > > > > > Which scenario is really more fair to the general player base again? > > > > you're completely shltting all over solo players mate. What about the pvpers who's friends don't play guild wars and can't find a decent, active team to play with? F*k them, right?? They don't get a choice, let them face well organised teams because f*k it, is what you are saying, essentially > > Not necessarily... Flex queues work pretty good. As long as people give them a chance. I even posted an outline for one, but it's been ignored lol. guess shouting 'solo v premade wahhhahaha' is just too much fun or something lol (even tho we got statistics that showed us premades lost more than they won vs solos, so it's a myth anyhow). or maybe it's that a good flex queue actually fixes the problem. but hey, whatever. solo queue roulette this game to death, be a game that people can't recommend to their friends. bleed players. I'll be playing something else w my friends (probably for honor, those sync kills man. heads roll <3) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ioras Dagnir.3927 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > That image at the bottom, MFW when the OP derails his own thread with a story/wall of text, and yet provides no point, or anything meaningful to the discussion/arguments. Nice write though. It is called an analogy and its highlighting the stupidity of solo Q in comparison to team Q and how wintraders are taking advantage of both playerbases . <- the point o <- your head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterPeanut.9746 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"allias.1420" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, i didn't know those statistics existed, but they pretty much confirm my experience then. I had better win rates with solo/duo than teams. The Algorithm was doing its job apparently. > > > > > > > This only makes Arena Net's choice more unjustifiable. > > > > > > > I had 8 guild mates that would regularly do PvP with me in guild teams (we'd rotate) and a few more that played less often. Of those 10-15 players, only ONE plays PvP regularly. It an't me either. I've not touched PvP once this last season. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The worse part, the part that really stings is that PvP was fun, was cool to play with friends, and a lot of my old mates actually quit the game entirely as well, and are now playing stuff like Warframe, Overwatch and LoL. And because of the damage done, the accumulation of errors, PvP is unlikely to ever bounce back. > > > > > > > > > > > > Good premade > Hey guys lets make a premade > pubs > > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that when you queue as a premade, system in the first place tries to match you vs another premade with similar average rating. When it fails, it expands a bit and puts you vs a premade with different skill level. If you are a "casual" premade, you end up stomped by some hardcore guys. But then when it even fails to find you another premade, it throws you some random pubs. Can pubs win with a premade? I guess thay can. But I think this mostly happens when a casual premade assembled on map chat gets pitted vs random solo guys from platinum rank. I sit in gold from 2-3 seasons and I never was above that. And from my own experience I can tell that 4 or 5 man premade thrown vs solos is a stomped game even before the gates open. I dont remember when was the last time I seen a game where all solos won vs a 4+ premade. Did I ever? I heard people claiming it happens, so as I described above, I suspect this may happen when all or most solos are platinum at least and they simply dominate all 1v1's during the match. > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand that not being able to play ranked with a full premade is a bad thing. And I agree with that. But this is a necessary evil in a game where PvP population is mediocre in size at best. There are not enough people to keep the premade only queue busy. And if you keep feeding pubs to premades, pubs will leave sooner rather than later. And I am fairly certain that, as in any game, there are more pubs than hardcore and skilled PvP-ers (take a look at tournaments participation) and utlimately this is what matters more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > its mediocre population because they removed team queue... cause and effect. > > > > > > > > > > Just a few photos though having a quick scrimmage through my desktop in regards to claims regarding winning against premades. > > > > >  > > > > >  > > > > >  > > > > >  > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > That was taken from the last 100 photos I have, I have thousands of screenshots. As you can see, most are complete blowouts favoring the "pugs". > > > > You are trying to justify yourself with screenshots from the current unranked arena? Are you trolling or what? Show me similar screenshots from ranked seasons when we had 5 man queue too. I literally had one win in hundreds of games against a 5 man premade. Also lol you having thousands of screenshots like this, love the irrelevant hyperboles > > > > > > > > > > I would definitely expect organized teams who have taken the time to practice as organized teams, in a team game mode, to get wins over solo ques, and they should be reaping the benefits of their effort. > > > > > > Not playing in a team and choosing to solo vs. teams in a team game mode was at your own risk. Hey, at least you had a CHOICE to play solo or in a team. As of now, people who want to play in a team, have no CHOICE but to play solo past 1600 and to eat win trade losses. > > > > > > Which scenario is really more fair to the general player base again? > > > > you're completely shltting all over solo players mate. What about the pvpers who's friends don't play guild wars and can't find a decent, active team to play with? F*k them, right?? They don't get a choice, let them face well organised teams because f*k it, is what you are saying, essentially > > You're seriously missing the biggest point made in this thread and that is that you are against 5 man or greater teams anyway, regardless of solo que. Open your eyes, pay attention. The problem is that this is pretty much impossible to prove. I personally have not felt like I went against a "psuedo 5man queue of wintraders or people in discord together" in ranked ever. That statement includes playing over 50 games in the last weekend (win trade weekend) to get to top 25. Out of all the possible things that people grossly exaggerate about ranked pvp, in my opinion, the overall impact of people win trading and dynamically teaming up in discord is by far the most. Never once in my ranked pvp games (at legend/plat 3 rating) have I been asked to join a discord server for a ranked game. That doesn't mean i don't think the wintrading is a problem. It is definitely still a problem they can address, but I'm just not sure that going back to 5man queues is really the way to do it. Maybe if they added some kind of filter. Like if I could choose as a solo player to never be put in a game with more than 2 people queued together, then maybe i'd get behind the change. Transparency and choices are really what is missing in this game IMO. The data that ANET has gathered clearly shows that they have made significant improvements to the matchmaker. The issue is that the players don't know that in game. IMO the best choice would be to let the players know everything. Tell every players rank before the game starts. Let players choose the "rank threshold" for their games (i.e. never queue me with anyone who is +-100 of me). If that takes 30min, so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcbroe.4329 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 As a person who's been playing since season 1, I enjoy solo queuing much more than I enjoyed queuing into full rosters of Team PZ and The Abjured. Numbers aren't dwindling because of anything to do with this topic. They're dwindling because on top of a stagnant balace cycle with low build diversity, ANet allows players to engage in toxic behavior including but not limited to: afking, griefing, ragequit/disconnecting, match manipulation, and harassment. The vast majority of the population isn't even playing at a level where they recognize the people accused of wintrading, much less encountering them in games. And frankly, accomodating the verbal minority of people that want to pugstomp ranked queues before taking the necessary and so far absent heavy handed approach to curb the negative behavior that affects players in every PvP venue, not just ranked queues, would be the nail in the coffin for PvP. I don't think I'd be alone in saying the only reason I can even still tolerate playing PvP is because I have most of the people that have been consistently in plat and on the leaderboards blocked in game, and I'll still get griefed by some of them with abuse of the targeting system or by them afking or DCing. Why would I want to play in an environment where not only is there no protection or retribution from/for player behavior, but that I'd also have to contend with tournament teams and basically be punished by the system for queuing alone? Not to mention it would make rating even more arbitrary than it already is since there would be no split between solo leaderboards and team leaderboards. If you're really dead set on this suggestion, then once again, coming from a person who has had more than enough of queuing into full teams for a lifetime, here's the suggested stipulations: * Teams queuing use the highest rated players MMR to make matches and determine rating gain/loss. * Random teams made by the matchmaker in order to face a premade team have to be +-50 (BEFORE deviation) at the maximum range to make the match, and even then that's a loose range against a full 5 man group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"jcbroe.4329" said: > * Teams queuing use the highest rated players MMR to make matches and determine rating gain/loss. > * Random teams made by the matchmaker in order to face a premade team have to be +-50 (BEFORE deviation) at the maximum range to make the match, and even then that's a loose range against a full 5 man group. I like these suggestions. However, for solo against 5 man, the solos should have an average of +100 at the maximum range. 2 tiers in a division would be reasonable. It would be like a team of solo plat 3s against a coordinated 5 man of plat 1s. The plat 1s have the advantage of coordination against the personal skill of the plat 3s. This is just my opinion. Also, it's worth noting that even though I personally may not have enjoyed solo quing against an organized 5 man, I still regarded the matches as fair. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that an organized group would have an advantage over PUGs. Yet I still advocate for 5 man simply because it removes the RNG from winning/losing. Quoting Elyot Grant, "I want to establish that eliminating randomness is actually a desirable goal in the first place. The key reason is simply that players hate it." Ranked is currently 100% RNG. It is impossible to a solo player (and to a lesser extent, duo) to carry the current iteration of Conquest. It is a 5v5 gamemode. How much a single person can do to carry 4 other players whilst simultaneously outplaying 5 others across a large map is negligible in the grand scheme of things. For example, as a solo player, the best ways to carry matches are through controlling side nodes or carrying team fights. However, you could be the best bruiser in the game, but if your team can't win mid or home, you still lose. You could also be the best support or damage dealer in the game, but if your team can't win home or far, you still lose. 5 man ques completely remove the RNG by allowing you to choose your own teammates. This gives you much needed reliability and coordination and eliminates luck from winning/losing. 5 man ques also eliminate the dangers of wintraders/griefers/afkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"allias.1420" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, i didn't know those statistics existed, but they pretty much confirm my experience then. I had better win rates with solo/duo than teams. The Algorithm was doing its job apparently. > > > > > > This only makes Arena Net's choice more unjustifiable. > > > > > > I had 8 guild mates that would regularly do PvP with me in guild teams (we'd rotate) and a few more that played less often. Of those 10-15 players, only ONE plays PvP regularly. It an't me either. I've not touched PvP once this last season. > > > > > > > > > > > > The worse part, the part that really stings is that PvP was fun, was cool to play with friends, and a lot of my old mates actually quit the game entirely as well, and are now playing stuff like Warframe, Overwatch and LoL. And because of the damage done, the accumulation of errors, PvP is unlikely to ever bounce back. > > > > > > > > > > Good premade > Hey guys lets make a premade > pubs > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that when you queue as a premade, system in the first place tries to match you vs another premade with similar average rating. When it fails, it expands a bit and puts you vs a premade with different skill level. If you are a "casual" premade, you end up stomped by some hardcore guys. But then when it even fails to find you another premade, it throws you some random pubs. Can pubs win with a premade? I guess thay can. But I think this mostly happens when a casual premade assembled on map chat gets pitted vs random solo guys from platinum rank. I sit in gold from 2-3 seasons and I never was above that. And from my own experience I can tell that 4 or 5 man premade thrown vs solos is a stomped game even before the gates open. I dont remember when was the last time I seen a game where all solos won vs a 4+ premade. Did I ever? I heard people claiming it happens, so as I described above, I suspect this may happen when all or most solos are platinum at least and they simply dominate all 1v1's during the match. > > > > > > > > > > I understand that not being able to play ranked with a full premade is a bad thing. And I agree with that. But this is a necessary evil in a game where PvP population is mediocre in size at best. There are not enough people to keep the premade only queue busy. And if you keep feeding pubs to premades, pubs will leave sooner rather than later. And I am fairly certain that, as in any game, there are more pubs than hardcore and skilled PvP-ers (take a look at tournaments participation) and utlimately this is what matters more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > its mediocre population because they removed team queue... cause and effect. > > > > > > > > Just a few photos though having a quick scrimmage through my desktop in regards to claims regarding winning against premades. > > > >  > > > >  > > > >  > > > >  > > > >  > > > > > > > > That was taken from the last 100 photos I have, I have thousands of screenshots. As you can see, most are complete blowouts favoring the "pugs". > > > You are trying to justify yourself with screenshots from the current unranked arena? Are you trolling or what? Show me similar screenshots from ranked seasons when we had 5 man queue too. I literally had one win in hundreds of games against a 5 man premade. Also lol you having thousands of screenshots like this, love the irrelevant hyperboles > > > > > > > I would definitely expect organized teams who have taken the time to practice as organized teams, in a team game mode, to get wins over solo ques, and they should be reaping the benefits of their effort. > > > > Not playing in a team and choosing to solo vs. teams in a team game mode was at your own risk. Hey, at least you had a CHOICE to play solo or in a team. As of now, people who want to play in a team, have no CHOICE but to play solo past 1600 and to eat win trade losses. > > > > Which scenario is really more fair to the general player base again? > > you're completely shltting all over solo players mate. What about the pvpers who's friends don't play guild wars and can't find a decent, active team to play with? F*k them, right?? They don't get a choice, let them face well organised teams because f*k it, is what you are saying, essentially Actually, yeah. That's pretty spot on. If you as a player cannot seem to find/make friends to play with, nor do PUGs want to play with you, that's likely a severe personal issue and not an issue with reintroducing 5 man. However, they still have the choice and freedom to play with others. So no, you're wrong about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcbroe.4329 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"jcbroe.4329" said: > > * Teams queuing use the highest rated players MMR to make matches and determine rating gain/loss. > > * Random teams made by the matchmaker in order to face a premade team have to be +-50 (BEFORE deviation) at the maximum range to make the match, and even then that's a loose range against a full 5 man group. > > I like these suggestions. However, for solo against 5 man, the solos should have an average of +100 at the maximum range. 2 tiers in a division would be reasonable. It would be like a team of solo plat 3s against a coordinated 5 man of plat 1s. The plat 1s have the advantage of coordination against the personal skill of the plat 3s. This is just my opinion. > > Also, it's worth noting that even though I personally may not have enjoyed solo quing against an organized 5 man, I still regarded the matches as fair. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that an organized group would have an advantage over PUGs. Yet I still advocate for 5 man simply because it removes the RNG from winning/losing. Quoting Elyot Grant, "I want to establish that eliminating randomness is actually a desirable goal in the first place. The key reason is simply that players hate it." > > Ranked is currently 100% RNG. It is impossible to a solo player (and to a lesser extent, duo) to carry the current iteration of Conquest. It is a 5v5 gamemode. How much a single person can do to carry 4 other players whilst simultaneously outplaying 5 others across a large map is negligible in the grand scheme of things. > > For example, as a solo player, the best ways to carry matches are through controlling side nodes or carrying team fights. However, you could be the best bruiser in the game, but if your team can't win mid or home, you still lose. You could also be the best support or damage dealer in the game, but if your team can't win home or far, you still lose. > > 5 man ques completely remove the RNG by allowing you to choose your own teammates. This gives you much needed reliability and coordination and eliminates luck from winning/losing. 5 man ques also eliminate the dangers of wintraders/griefers/afkers. Theoretically there's nothing wrong with "blind" matchmaking. In practice, the matchmaking should be making more precise teams than players would make for themselves, and you would get the most precisely balanced matchups the less players have a hand in determining the matches. However, that would also require a tighter matchmaking algorithm with more accurate tracking and a rating system that isn't glicko. As an example of this; I bet you wouldn't have a problem with "RNG teammates" if those teammates were confidently calculated to be able to perform at the same skill level as yourself. With an accurate enough algorithm, the only thing that would be different in matches would be the person behind the keyboard; but the performance of the players would be consistent and in that sense, not RNG. BUT, instead of aiming for something like a Trueskill algorithm, we have a glicko algorithm with way too large of a deviation range that's way too dependent on W/L to build confident MMRs and deviations to make proper matches, which is why you/I/we have such little confidence in it that we feel we'd make better matches and teams than the algorithm. Still, team queue doesn't fix anything. It's just a side thing that distracts from a proper methodology with an implementation that needs improvement, and what we should really be asking for is for ANet to work on the matchmaking algorithm to improve it while cracking down on player behavior (which is especially important because a matchmaker can't account for toxic behavior, and that behavior can and will ruin matches, so ANet needs to remove the players from the environment in order to maintain the integrity and control within the environment). Granted, like I said, most of that is theoretical and out of reach. What I can say for certain is that if solo queue does go away, I'll either spend all my time dodging teams or I just won't have a venue that I feel comfortable PvPing in anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"ButterPeanut.9746" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"allias.1420" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, i didn't know those statistics existed, but they pretty much confirm my experience then. I had better win rates with solo/duo than teams. The Algorithm was doing its job apparently. > > > > > > > > This only makes Arena Net's choice more unjustifiable. > > > > > > > > I had 8 guild mates that would regularly do PvP with me in guild teams (we'd rotate) and a few more that played less often. Of those 10-15 players, only ONE plays PvP regularly. It an't me either. I've not touched PvP once this last season. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The worse part, the part that really stings is that PvP was fun, was cool to play with friends, and a lot of my old mates actually quit the game entirely as well, and are now playing stuff like Warframe, Overwatch and LoL. And because of the damage done, the accumulation of errors, PvP is unlikely to ever bounce back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good premade > Hey guys lets make a premade > pubs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that when you queue as a premade, system in the first place tries to match you vs another premade with similar average rating. When it fails, it expands a bit and puts you vs a premade with different skill level. If you are a "casual" premade, you end up stomped by some hardcore guys. But then when it even fails to find you another premade, it throws you some random pubs. Can pubs win with a premade? I guess thay can. But I think this mostly happens when a casual premade assembled on map chat gets pitted vs random solo guys from platinum rank. I sit in gold from 2-3 seasons and I never was above that. And from my own experience I can tell that 4 or 5 man premade thrown vs solos is a stomped game even before the gates open. I dont remember when was the last time I seen a game where all solos won vs a 4+ premade. Did I ever? I heard people claiming it happens, so as I described above, I suspect this may happen when all or most solos are platinum at least and they simply dominate all 1v1's during the match. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand that not being able to play ranked with a full premade is a bad thing. And I agree with that. But this is a necessary evil in a game where PvP population is mediocre in size at best. There are not enough people to keep the premade only queue busy. And if you keep feeding pubs to premades, pubs will leave sooner rather than later. And I am fairly certain that, as in any game, there are more pubs than hardcore and skilled PvP-ers (take a look at tournaments participation) and utlimately this is what matters more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > its mediocre population because they removed team queue... cause and effect. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just a few photos though having a quick scrimmage through my desktop in regards to claims regarding winning against premades. > > > > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > That was taken from the last 100 photos I have, I have thousands of screenshots. As you can see, most are complete blowouts favoring the "pugs". > > > > > You are trying to justify yourself with screenshots from the current unranked arena? Are you trolling or what? Show me similar screenshots from ranked seasons when we had 5 man queue too. I literally had one win in hundreds of games against a 5 man premade. Also lol you having thousands of screenshots like this, love the irrelevant hyperboles > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would definitely expect organized teams who have taken the time to practice as organized teams, in a team game mode, to get wins over solo ques, and they should be reaping the benefits of their effort. > > > > > > > > Not playing in a team and choosing to solo vs. teams in a team game mode was at your own risk. Hey, at least you had a CHOICE to play solo or in a team. As of now, people who want to play in a team, have no CHOICE but to play solo past 1600 and to eat win trade losses. > > > > > > > > Which scenario is really more fair to the general player base again? > > > > > > you're completely shltting all over solo players mate. What about the pvpers who's friends don't play guild wars and can't find a decent, active team to play with? F*k them, right?? They don't get a choice, let them face well organised teams because f*k it, is what you are saying, essentially > > > > You're seriously missing the biggest point made in this thread and that is that you are against 5 man or greater teams anyway, regardless of solo que. Open your eyes, pay attention. > > The problem is that this is pretty much impossible to prove. I personally have not felt like I went against a "psuedo 5man queue of wintraders or people in discord together" in ranked ever. That statement includes playing over 50 games in the last weekend (win trade weekend) to get to top 25. > > Out of all the possible things that people grossly exaggerate about ranked pvp, in my opinion, the overall impact of people win trading and dynamically teaming up in discord is by far the most. Never once in my ranked pvp games (at legend/plat 3 rating) have I been asked to join a discord server for a ranked game. > > That doesn't mean i don't think the wintrading is a problem. It is definitely still a problem they can address, but I'm just not sure that going back to 5man queues is really the way to do it. Maybe if they added some kind of filter. Like if I could choose as a solo player to never be put in a game with more than 2 people queued together, then maybe i'd get behind the change. Transparency and choices are really what is missing in this game IMO. The data that ANET has gathered clearly shows that they have made significant improvements to the matchmaker. The issue is that the players don't know that in game. IMO the best choice would be to let the players know everything. Tell every players rank before the game starts. Let players choose the "rank threshold" for their games (i.e. never queue me with anyone who is +-100 of me). If that takes 30min, so be it. So you're pretty much saying that premades don't have an impact on your win rate and that 5 man queues would not be the Apocalypse people suggest?> @"jcbroe.4329" said: > As a person who's been playing since season 1, I enjoy solo queuing much more than I enjoyed queuing into full rosters of Team PZ and The Abjured. > > Numbers aren't dwindling because of anything to do with this topic. They're dwindling because on top of a stagnant balace cycle with low build diversity, ANet allows players to engage in toxic behavior including but not limited to: afking, griefing, ragequit/disconnecting, match manipulation, and harassment. > > The vast majority of the population isn't even playing at a level where they recognize the people accused of wintrading, much less encountering them in games. > > And frankly, accomodating the verbal minority of people that want to pugstomp ranked queues before taking the necessary and so far absent heavy handed approach to curb the negative behavior that affects players in every PvP venue, not just ranked queues, would be the nail in the coffin for PvP. > > I don't think I'd be alone in saying the only reason I can even still tolerate playing PvP is because I have most of the people that have been consistently in plat and on the leaderboards blocked in game, and I'll still get griefed by some of them with abuse of the targeting system or by them afking or DCing. > > Why would I want to play in an environment where not only is there no protection or retribution from/for player behavior, but that I'd also have to contend with tournament teams and basically be punished by the system for queuing alone? > > Not to mention it would make rating even more arbitrary than it already is since there would be no split between solo leaderboards and team leaderboards. > > If you're really dead set on this suggestion, then once again, coming from a person who has had more than enough of queuing into full teams for a lifetime, here's the suggested stipulations: > * Teams queuing use the highest rated players MMR to make matches and determine rating gain/loss. > * Random teams made by the matchmaker in order to face a premade team have to be +-50 (BEFORE deviation) at the maximum range to make the match, and even then that's a loose range against a full 5 man group. Your #1 was already the case. And being that case, it's pretty much an automatic #2 already. And why would it be a loose? Actual statistic data showed that that wasn't the case, that premades lost more often than won. For someone playing since season1, and having been playing vs Abjured (lol) you really haven't understood how it worked... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcbroe.4329 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 @"ReaverKane.7598" I have no idea what data you're referring to. Please show me the dataset so that we can have a genuine, fact based conversation. Otherwise I have to take your word for it. Which isn't really the same thing, no offense. I'd just prefer a reference point over taking your word for it. To answer your question though, combine my response to Shadowpass about the faults of the current matchmaking implementation with the limitations of a matchmaking algorithms inability to accurately judge the impact of trained communication and coordination. Also I think it's pretty obvious that I understand and am very familiar with ELO, Glicko, Glicko2, and alternative (I mentioned Trueskill) algorithms. A lack of understanding would've resulted in my lack of compromise, and really, there is no argument for not having a combined queue other than "the tuning has to be right," and I will not claim my suggested tuning is perfect by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucentfir.7430 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Ioras Dagnir.3927" said: > > That image at the bottom, MFW when the OP derails his own thread with a story/wall of text, and yet provides no point, or anything meaningful to the discussion/arguments. Nice write though. > > It is called an analogy and its highlighting the stupidity of solo Q in comparison to team Q and how wintraders are taking advantage of both playerbases > > . <- the point > > o <- your head > I know it's an analogy, it just doesn't contribute anything of value or convincing worth to the topic he started. A poor way to try and justify the return of old 5 man ranked queue. Win trading and exploiting needs to stop, but that's all in Anet's power, yet people are settling for less when they whine for 5 man ranked to return, as if it's some sort of holy savior that will protect them from win trading, or reviving the game mode because you put emphasis on the 'team' aspect of the game mode, as a belief that'll revitalize the game mode's pool. It won't , though Anet really should crackdown on these exploiters and offenders, that's a big part of solving the problems with with the current Spvp. I support bringing a mixed ranked queue(1-5 party) on the account of it being a different queue option next to Solo Queue with its own leaderboards and MMR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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