Crab Fear.1624 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > **THE CLOWN FIESTA REVENGE** > True Story ^ > > I was standing out in this field, watching 5 kids playing kickball against 5 other kids, while a large group of other kids were watching and waiting their turn. Then I saw 5 new kids arrive together all at once, and they were wearing identical jerseys. One of the teams challenged the 5 kids wearing the jerseys and lost the match to them. Then an argument broke out: "This isn't fair, they are a real team." The kids wearing the jerseys said back to them: "But you are also a team, we have just practiced more." The kids said back to them: "NOT FAIR NOT WAH WAH WAH." The jerseys looked around confused and said: "But isn't that point of competitive games?" It was then that a random gym teacher came out into the field and told everyone that he had to shut down the kickball game because there weren't enough teams amongst all of these teams to support playing the team game that they were all playing. The jerseys walked and said: "Fine have it your way." > > That very next day, all the children showed back up to play again. This time I noticed the gym teacher was outside and he was randomizing the teams in attempts to balance the games so there were no blow outs. In the next match, he had selected two players that I recognized from that jersey team and put them with three kids that I had never seen before. Then he called out the names of five other children. When he called out the last name, I noticed one of the jersey players amongst the crowd of children duck his head down, pull out a clown mask from his shirt and put it on, and began to walk towards the field. The gym teacher said: "Oh you must be new, here let me put you on this team." For some reason, I was the only one that noticed he was a jersey player playing with a mask and under a fake name. When the match started, I noticed the jersey with the clown mask was purposely kicking the ball in the wrong direction. Sometimes he would run in to his own teammates or block a pass and play it off as an accident. It would seem that he was sabotaging the team he was on so his real teammates on the opposing team could easily win the game. When that match ended, the coach called out names for the next two teams. I heard him call out the real name of the clown jersey player and I watched that kid walk behind the crowd where no one could see him and he took his mask off and started running towards the field. The coach then called out names for the opposing team and I saw two other jersey players do the same thing, they ducked down, put on clown masks, and began running towards the field under false names. The same exact thing happened, the kids wearing clown masks were throwing games for their real teammates. > > I came back to watch these games for the next week, out of sheer raw curiosity. Over the course of that week, the jersey players started making new friends and started involving them in the clown fiesta. More and more children began showing up with clown masks and alternate names ready to play under. The more players that joined the clown fiesta, the more kids that would leave and never come back. It would seem that there were smart children, some of which who chose to don the clown masks and others who desperately tried to point out to the gym teacher what was happening. But that gym teacher would always respond with: "It is against the rules to publicly humiliate anyone so until we have real proof, it isn't happening." Some of those smart kids would say: "But the proof is right here if you let me take his clown mask off." The gym teacher would say: "If you do that, I'll have to send you home and not let you play anymore." I began to wonder if the gym teacher was in on the clown fiesta and if he was actually protecting it. Then there were the.. slower kids. The ones who seemed to not notice what was going on at all. They didn't notice the obvious game throwing activity. They didn't notice that these players were making too many mistakes during a single match for it to be real, and they never thought the clown masks were suspicious in any way. During the last day that I sat and watched the clown fiesta, one of the slower children said aloud to everyone: "Something is wrong with these matches.! This is the WORST match making I've ever seen! Our gym teacher is sooo bad at making matches! I always get blow out matches and I get these bad clown players on my team! I don't want bad clown players on my team anymore! We need to fix the gym teacher's match making capabilities! But I am still happy that I don't have to play against the jerseys anymore!" I watched in horror as the gym teacher sat back and started taking all forms of suggestions while rubbing his chin in confusion and contemplation. I heard many suggestions thrown at the coach but I knew that they would not work because I had witnessed what the real problem was. That's when I decided to come forward and tell the gym teacher what I had seen and what needed to be done. I told him everything about what I had witnessed and learned. I gave him one suggestion that would fix the problem. One suggestion that was simply to revert the decision that he made, that started the clown fiesta to begin with. I said to him: "Just let the children pick their own teams. This way they can pick the friends they want to play with and they don't need to pick a bad clown player." But then one of the slower children looked at me in anger and said: "No! I don't want to lose because of the jerseys anymore!" I said to him: "But the jerseys are the clown players who are making you lose your matches." The child said again: "No! I don't want to lose because of the jerseys anymore!" Then the gym teacher looked at me and said: "We can't do that because there aren't enough teams out of all of these teams to be able to play this team game that we are playing all day." I started walking back to my car and thought to myself: "You know it's no wonder the number of kids playing in this field shrinks day to day. It feels good to abandon such an irrational and illogical clown fiesta." > >  > > > > > > > Make teams a separate mode then, with team leaderboard and no individual spots. After all train, play, and succeed as team. Obviously in a team there can be an mvp, but that’s voted in. Maybe they can have extra stats like best booger picker idk Main point is if a majority of players solo queue by choice in a game that gives individual rating, groups/teams that earn their accolades should not be judged on the same board. Also conquest is more like nascar than kickball. You can be a part of the team but you earn your own accolades and based on what you did the whole season will affect your end placement or being the champion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghos.1326 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 they are trying to bring this back, in the form of repeatable automated tournaments. There will be one AT that will be repeatable, from my understanding, and there will still be the other ATs and the MATs as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted March 17, 2018 Author Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"Ghos.1326" said: > they are trying to bring this back, in the form of repeatable automated tournaments. There will be one AT that will be repeatable, from my understanding, and there will still be the other ATs and the MATs as well. That's great, it really is. It still does not fix, mend or address the state of ranked seasons however. When a legit non win trading player can play as high as 1700 one day, as low as 1400 the next, then back up to 1700 the day after, that's volatile man. I remember in earlier ranked seasons, I would play tightly within 50 rating of a max rating achieved & lowest rating achieved. Nowadays, it's more like 300 rating. <- This is an indication of the rating system completely falling apart. There are too many gambits involved in ranked seasons, each and every time we que, for it be anywhere even near a practical system for indicating a player's active skill level. Despite the masses of children screaming "the coach is bad at match making", the truth is that the biggest gambit factor influencing this volatile rating fluctuation is indeed match manipulation. I do want to address what @"ButterPeanut.9746" said: Gotta get social to get a good idea of what's going on. By that I mean, go into different discords, read their chat logs, pop in and listen to them every once in awhile, and more so than anything, notice the patterns. When 4 or 5 guys all simultaneously go offline on you saying "alright we're taking a break" then all log in the next day +150 rating, they just might be win traders. When there is a day that all of these guys you know just aren't online at all but you can see all of their ratings rising in your friend panel, they just might be win traders. When friends who you have known & played with for years, who have ALWAYS played at a certain exact rating, suddenly abandon everyone and seemingly are offline 75% of the season, yet have hundreds and hundreds of games played, and are suddenly playing at the 1800 threshold, they just might be win traders. When you face players in ATs, who are poor in combat, poor in rotations and generally lack understanding of their class role, yet those players are playing at 1700+ on the leaderboards??????????????????????????????????? They just might be win traders. As far as in-match evident behavior goes, you're telling me that you don't have games where you see obviously questionable activity? That's insane man. I mean seriously, this last season was by FAR the worst yet. I'd say about every other match I had, displayed super questionable behavior. About 1/3 or 1/4 matches displayed definite win trading. I can't help but to wonder if you haven't taken it upon yourself to notice this yet. These are the kinds of things I see happening in RANKED seasons but don't see happening in unranked "where there is no reason to win trade": * Firebrands & Scourges join my team, then swap to Thief. <- This is to block other Firebrand/Scourge joins and log in as something that can explode on contact in combat. * Players who wade into combat only ever pushing #1 spam, never heal, never use utilities, explode on contact. <- Do you really think these players are inherently that bad? I've been training new players for years in this game and let me tell ya, even new players know how to push button other than #1. * Players making the worst possible rotational decisions. I don't mean pushing far and dying or +ing home when it isn't needed. No, I mean advanced level rotation throwing. After awhile, it occurs to you that the person doing it would have to have an advanced understanding on conquest, to be able to always be in the worst & most useless possible place at all times. Not once ever doing anything helpful or correct, the entire match. Not once. * Players who call out "I'll cap home" then don't cap home and continue to display the above types of behavior. * Classes that counter an enemy class 1v1 but bail nodes 1v1 for absolutely no reason other than to give them the decap. Great example: A DH is sitting at mid in Forest. Then an enemy Thief comes around the back and gets on the node with him. The DH knows he is there because he gets hit by the Thief and the Thief even gets hit by traps and goes half health but the DH just bails and leaves, with no regard towards the Thief taking the node. Sometimes I'll notice them on the mini map, the DH "for this example used" slightly walks off the node and allows the Thief to decap. Then they both sit there ooc for a questionable amount of time, until other players show up on screen, and then they make it look like they are fighting again. Some of them are brazen enough to sit and have a conversation in the map chat, making it completely obvious that one team is throwing the game. * Players who push a node, then stand there and let you kill them with little to no effort whatsoever. Players who stand there when you push a node and let you kill them, with little to no effort to survive. By this I mean, they seriously just stand there. They aren't lagging, they are just letting you kill them. * Very conspicuous whispers before a game starts "You're not gonna win this game". Then when the match starts, there is clearly something very wrong with the match as a player or two on your team exhibit all of the above behavior, resulting in some 500 to 20 blowout. Sometimes it's the other way around, you're trying hard in a losing game and typing in /t chat to toss intel and plan rotations, then someone whispers "it's cool bro, just watch". Then at around a losing 350 to 250 your team of silver 3/gold 1 players magically turns into an AT plat 2 team and comes back for a winning 500 to 300. <- Which, I probably get a lot more of this type of activity due to my advocacy towards anti-cheating in the forum and the discord I created dedicated to exposing cheating of all kinds. Some of these guys absolutely love to taunt me. * Players receiving whispers mid game "I'll give you 20g if you throw the match". I've only ever had this happen a couple of times and that was many many seasons ago. I don't get these types of whispers anymore and it is probably because they know screenshots would be posted in my discord if they did that. I just want to stress again, these are things that I don't see happening in unranked. ~ Go figure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghos.1326 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Ghos.1326" said: > > they are trying to bring this back, in the form of repeatable automated tournaments. There will be one AT that will be repeatable, from my understanding, and there will still be the other ATs and the MATs as well. > > That's great, it really is. It still does not fix, mend or address the state of ranked seasons however. When a legit non win trading player can play as high as 1700 one day, as low as 1400 the next, then back up to 1700 the day after, that's volatile man. I remember in earlier ranked seasons, I would play tightly within 50 rating of a max rating achieved & lowest rating achieved. Nowadays, it's more like 300 rating. <- This is an indication of the rating system completely falling apart. There are too many gambits involved in ranked seasons, each and every time we que, for it be anywhere even near a practical system for indicating a player's active skill level. Despite the masses of children screaming "the coach is bad at match making", the truth is that the biggest gambit factor influencing this volatile rating fluctuation is indeed match manipulation. > > I do want to address what @"ButterPeanut.9746" said: > Gotta get social to get a good idea of what's going on. By that I mean, go into different discords, read their chat logs, pop in and listen to them every once in awhile, and more so than anything, notice the patterns. When 4 or 5 guys all simultaneously go offline on you saying "alright we're taking a break" then all log in the next day +150 rating, they just might be win traders. When there is a day that all of these guys you know just aren't online at all but you can see all of their ratings rising in your friend panel, they just might be win traders. When friends who you have known & played with for years, who have ALWAYS played at a certain exact rating, suddenly abandon everyone and seemingly are offline 75% of the season, yet have hundreds and hundreds of games played, and are suddenly playing at the 1800 threshold, they just might be win traders. When you face players in ATs, who are poor in combat, poor in rotations and generally lack understanding of their class role, yet those players are playing at 1700+ on the leaderboards??????????????????????????????????? They just might be win traders. > > As far as in-match evident behavior goes, you're telling me that you don't have games where you see obviously questionable activity? That's insane man. I mean seriously, this last season was by FAR the worst yet. I'd say about every other match I had, displayed super questionable behavior. About 1/3 or 1/4 matches displayed definite win trading. I can't help but to wonder if you haven't taken it upon yourself to notice this yet. These are the kinds of things I see happening in RANKED seasons but don't see happening in unranked "where there is no reason to win trade": > * Firebrands & Scourges join my team, then swap to Thief. <- This is to block other Firebrand/Scourge joins and log in as something that can explode on contact in combat. > * Players who wade into combat only ever pushing #1 spam, never heal, never use utilities, explode on contact. <- Do you really think these players are inherently that bad? I've been training new players for years in this game and let me tell ya, even new players know how to push button other than #1. > * Players making the worst possible rotational decisions. I don't mean pushing far and dying or +ing home when it isn't needed. No, I mean advanced level rotation throwing. After awhile, it occurs to you that the person doing it would have to have an advanced understanding on conquest, to be able to always be in the worst & most useless possible place at all times. Not once ever doing anything helpful or correct, the entire match. Not once. > * Players who call out "I'll cap home" then don't cap home and continue to display the above types of behavior. > * Classes that counter an enemy class 1v1 but bail nodes 1v1 for absolutely no reason other than to give them the decap. Great example: A DH is sitting at mid in Forest. Then an enemy Thief comes around the back and gets on the node with him. The DH knows he is there because he gets hit by the Thief and the Thief even gets hit by traps and goes half health but the DH just bails and leaves, with no regard towards the Thief taking the node. Sometimes I'll notice them on the mini map, the DH "for this example used" slightly walks off the node and allows the Thief to decap. Then they both sit there ooc for a questionable amount of time, until other players show up on screen, and then they make it look like they are fighting again. Some of them are brazen enough to sit and have a conversation in the map chat, making it completely obvious that one team is throwing the game. > * Players who push a node, then stand there and let you kill them with little to no effort whatsoever. Players who stand there when you push a node and let you kill them, with little to no effort to survive. By this I mean, they seriously just stand there. They aren't lagging, they are just letting you kill them. > * Very conspicuous whispers before a game starts "You're not gonna win this game". Then when the match starts, there is clearly something very wrong with the match as a player or two on your team exhibit all of the above behavior, resulting in some 500 to 20 blowout. Sometimes it's the other way around, you're trying hard in a losing game and typing in /t chat to toss intel and plan rotations, then someone whispers "it's cool bro, just watch". Then at around a losing 350 to 250 your team of silver 3/gold 1 players magically turns into an AT plat 2 team and comes back for a winning 500 to 300. <- Which, I probably get a lot more of this type of activity due to my advocacy towards anti-cheating in the forum and the discord I created dedicated to exposing cheating of all kinds. Some of these guys absolutely love to taunt me. > * Players receiving whispers mid game "I'll give you 20g if you throw the match". I've only ever had this happen a couple of times and that was many many seasons ago. I don't get these types of whispers anymore and it is probably because they know screenshots would be posted in my discord if they did that. > > I just want to stress again, these are things that I don't see happening in unranked. ~ Go figure > > > I agree with you. The jump in the quality of matches is a bit crazy. There are many factors that play into this, the main one being the skill level of other players. You know, the players that aren't really as good as the system says they are, who got carried by other decent (or good) players who end up on our team and ruin the match because they should be in bronze with their "go mid, die on point always, run into 3v1 because i SHOULD be able to win that, i died by this guy so i'm just going to push into that fight again, i'm a glass cannon trying to 1v1 duelists and bruisers, i don't run from fights because i'm not a p***y" mindset, instead of trying to learn the basic mechanics of a conquest style pvp scenario and actually play to win. I think so many people should read these two books: The Book of Five Rings, and The Art of War. Great reads but applies to everything strategy based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awe.1096 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"Ghos.1326" said: > I agree with you. The jump in the quality of matches is a bit crazy. There are many factors that play into this, the main one being the skill level of other players. You know, the players that aren't really as good as the system says they are, who got carried by other decent (or good) players who end up on our team and ruin the match because they should be in bronze with their "go mid, die on point always, run into 3v1 because i SHOULD be able to win that, i died by this guy so i'm just going to push into that fight again, i'm a glass cannon trying to 1v1 duelists and bruisers, i don't run from fights because i'm not a p***y" mindset, instead of trying to learn the basic mechanics of a conquest style pvp scenario and actually play to win. I think so many people should read these two books: The Book of Five Rings, and The Art of War. Great reads but applies to everything strategy based. Tbh as a solo player I dont see that volatality. Im stuck in lower gold since like 3 seasons and my rating never fluctautes by more than 100 points or so. That is where my my skill ceiling is and I accept that. I can also clearly see a difference between a platinum player and bronze or silver player. I tend to do many 1v1s during the unranked offseason and sometimes I check/ask for rating some of the players (that is unless they dont spam with "haha lol gtfo noob" after a won duel - there is no point wasting time trying to have a discussion with a 14-yo). A platinum player will win a duel with me 4 out of 5 times or maybe even more (depends from profession combo we deal with). This goes the other way when I face lower rank players. This is why I believe that for the population it has, GW2 PvP matchmaking works fairly well (in ranked, unranked is garbage). You will never get a really good balance in a team based game where so many depends from two teams thrown together and many intricacies in profession combinations. This is why I also believe that mixing team and solo queue in ranked is a bad thing. Because it throws yet another balance problem for a matchmaking system. If a premade is to be matched with a bunch of pubs, those pubs should have a higher average rank to compenaste for a solo vs team disadvantage. But how big handicap exactly? It is very hard to predict. Team queue is a very good thing to have but only when teams face other teams. I understand the need to play with your friends and I support this claim. But the current 2-man queue limitation is a necessary evil to protect whatever is left of a fragile matchmaking integrity. And yes I know about win-trading. This kitten should be treated as a separate issue and needs to be somehow dealt with. With this i totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted March 17, 2018 Author Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"Awe.1096" said: > > @"Ghos.1326" said: > > I agree with you. The jump in the quality of matches is a bit crazy. There are many factors that play into this, the main one being the skill level of other players. You know, the players that aren't really as good as the system says they are, who got carried by other decent (or good) players who end up on our team and ruin the match because they should be in bronze with their "go mid, die on point always, run into 3v1 because i SHOULD be able to win that, i died by this guy so i'm just going to push into that fight again, i'm a glass cannon trying to 1v1 duelists and bruisers, i don't run from fights because i'm not a p***y" mindset, instead of trying to learn the basic mechanics of a conquest style pvp scenario and actually play to win. I think so many people should read these two books: The Book of Five Rings, and The Art of War. Great reads but applies to everything strategy based. > > Tbh as a solo player I dont see that volatality. Im stuck in lower gold since like 3 seasons and my rating never fluctautes by more than 100 points or so. That is where my my skill ceiling is and I accept that. I can also clearly see a difference between a platinum player and bronze or silver player. I tend to do many 1v1s during the unranked offseason and sometimes I check/ask for rating some of the players (that is unless they dont spam with "haha lol gtfo noob" after a won duel - there is no point wasting time trying to have a discussion with a 14-yo). A platinum player will win a duel with me 4 out of 5 times or maybe even more (depends from profession combo we deal with). This goes the other way when I face lower rank players. > > This is why I believe that for the population it has, GW2 PvP matchmaking works fairly well (in ranked, unranked is garbage). You will never get a really good balance in a team based game where so many depends from two teams thrown together and many intricacies in profession combinations. This is why I also believe that mixing team and solo queue in ranked is a bad thing. Because it throws yet another balance problem for a matchmaking system. If a premade is to be matched with a bunch of pubs, those pubs should have a higher average rank to compenaste for a solo vs team disadvantage. But how big handicap exactly? It is very hard to predict. Team queue is a very good thing to have but only when teams face other teams. I understand the need to play with your friends and I support this claim. But the current 2-man queue limitation is a necessary evil to protect whatever is left of a fragile matchmaking integrity. And yes I know about win-trading. This kitten should be treated as a separate issue and needs to be somehow dealt with. With this i totally agree. > > OK, with all due respect: A legit plat + player ques a match solo: * Population is low and it is highly unlikely that he will get another plat in his team, but rather he will have to go against another platinum player. Since most of the win trading is done by plat + players, this means that he has a high likelihood of running in against a plat on the opposing team who has a win trade team with him "people in his team who are ready to DC if he is about to lose rating and people on the legit player's team who are ready to throw the match." Both of the teams will be filled with various gold & silver tier players. * The plat + player begins to notice that the frequency of impossible to carry matches becomes ridiculous at around 1550 rating. He also notices that it starts happening at 1500+ because 1500+ is what puts him in range to have to GO AGAINST other plat + players instead of having equal chances on landing on teams with plat + legits or plat + win trade teams. * The plat + player begins noticing the strange behavior in these matches above 1500+ and examines it closely. In the end, there is simply too much suspicious behavior for it to be a coincidence and for it to be happening so frequently. * In other words, the legit plat + player is never benefitting from being on the good side of a win trade team, because he is in the plat division and has very lower chances of ever being placed with other plat players. He is having to go against them and becomes fodder for them but never benefits from having them on his team. A legit gold player or lower ques a match solo: * Population is low but population of gold players is double or triple that of plat players. The gold player has an equal chance when in que, that he may be placed with some legit plat + on his team, who has been pitted against a win trade plat + on the other team, or to be placed on the team with the win trader plat +. This means statistically, he is benefitting just as much from win trading as he is being hurt by it. * The gold or lower player, due to the balance in being helped/hurt does not notice what is going on. He is probably a newer player and doesn't even know what to look for or recognize as unusual conquest behavior. He probably showed up a season or two ago, when win trading had already set in, and sees the odd behavior as completely normal. He wasn't around in year 1 and 2, when strangely enough, non of this win trade behavior was happening and 95% of the players playing were always actually trying. * The gold or lower player has probably NEVER once logged into discord or teamspeak for that matter and has NEVER once, played in an organized 5 man team in an inhouse or scrim. In other words, he has no idea what a real match looks like, where every player despite skill level, is actually trying. * In other other words, the gold or lower player is completely blind in his ability to identify win trade behavior. What he is seeing now, is all he has ever known. He is currently having fun being robbed by the complete dice roll gambit of que'ing Guild Wars 2 ranked season matches because he doesn't know any better, the game's pvp still feels new, and farming lots of gold and ascended shards feels good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"jcbroe.4329" said: > @"ReaverKane.7598" I have no idea what data you're referring to. Please show me the dataset so that we can have a genuine, fact based conversation. > > Otherwise I have to take your word for it. Which isn't really the same thing, no offense. I'd just prefer a reference point over taking your word for it. > > To answer your question though, combine my response to Shadowpass about the faults of the current matchmaking implementation with the limitations of a matchmaking algorithms inability to accurately judge the impact of trained communication and coordination. > > Also I think it's pretty obvious that I understand and am very familiar with ELO, Glicko, Glicko2, and alternative (I mentioned Trueskill) algorithms. A lack of understanding would've resulted in my lack of compromise, and really, there is no argument for not having a combined queue other than "the tuning has to be right," and I will not claim my suggested tuning is perfect by any means. I can only get you the dulfy quote from the forum post since those forums were archived and the post deleted, it addresses the worse case scenario (that for that patch was being removed) of 5 man premade vs 5 man solo teams. This type of matches happened 1% of the time, and the win ration was 50% or higher for the solo players. If this is the case for 5 vs 1-1-1-1-1, it would stand to reason that a 5 vs 3-1-1, 4-1, or 2-1-1-1, would have similar statistics. I don't know if there are any other more detailed statistics, i wish that was the case, maybe the vote wouldn't have been so misinformed. Quote: >Only 1% of all Ranked matches played in season one were a full five-person premade group vs. a group of five solo players, and even then, the win rate for those five solo player teams in those cases was consistently at or above 50% throughout the entire season. That being said, even though the instances of this specific type of matchup occurring were actually very rare during season one, we still felt that matchmaking would be improved overall if we made sure that this type of match-up was simply no longer possible in future seasons. Source: http://dulfy.net/2016/02/18/gw2-upcoming-changes-for-pvp-season-two/ This also illustrates the point i've been making. They ceded to player opinion and perception despite knowing better, and risked hurting the game mode. Which ended up happening. No matter how much people attempt to deny it. Even with bad balance (team queue was removed a long time after they sorted out immortal chronotanks), pvp was way more active when Ranked teams were a thing than it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucentfir.7430 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"jcbroe.4329" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" I have no idea what data you're referring to. Please show me the dataset so that we can have a genuine, fact based conversation. > > > > Otherwise I have to take your word for it. Which isn't really the same thing, no offense. I'd just prefer a reference point over taking your word for it. > > > > To answer your question though, combine my response to Shadowpass about the faults of the current matchmaking implementation with the limitations of a matchmaking algorithms inability to accurately judge the impact of trained communication and coordination. > > > > Also I think it's pretty obvious that I understand and am very familiar with ELO, Glicko, Glicko2, and alternative (I mentioned Trueskill) algorithms. A lack of understanding would've resulted in my lack of compromise, and really, there is no argument for not having a combined queue other than "the tuning has to be right," and I will not claim my suggested tuning is perfect by any means. > > I can only get you the dulfy quote from the forum post since those forums were archived and the post deleted, it addresses the worse case scenario (that for that patch was being removed) of 5 man premade vs 5 man solo teams. This type of matches happened 1% of the time, and the win ration was 50% or higher for the solo players. If this is the case for 5 vs 1-1-1-1-1, it would stand to reason that a 5 vs 3-1-1, 4-1, or 2-1-1-1, would have similar statistics. I don't know if there are any other more detailed statistics, i wish that was the case, maybe the vote wouldn't have been so misinformed. > > Quote: > >Only 1% of all Ranked matches played in season one were a full five-person premade group vs. a group of five solo players, and even then, the win rate for those five solo player teams in those cases was consistently at or above 50% throughout the entire season. That being said, even though the instances of this specific type of matchup occurring were actually very rare during season one, we still felt that matchmaking would be improved overall if we made sure that this type of match-up was simply no longer possible in future seasons. > > Source: > http://dulfy.net/2016/02/18/gw2-upcoming-changes-for-pvp-season-two/ > > This also illustrates the point i've been making. They ceded to player opinion and perception despite knowing better, and risked hurting the game mode. Which ended up happening. No matter how much people attempt to deny it. Even with bad balance (team queue was removed a long time after they sorted out immortal chronotanks), pvp was way more active when Ranked teams were a thing than it is now. > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"jcbroe.4329" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" I have no idea what data you're referring to. Please show me the dataset so that we can have a genuine, fact based conversation. > > > > Otherwise I have to take your word for it. Which isn't really the same thing, no offense. I'd just prefer a reference point over taking your word for it. > > > > To answer your question though, combine my response to Shadowpass about the faults of the current matchmaking implementation with the limitations of a matchmaking algorithms inability to accurately judge the impact of trained communication and coordination. > > > > Also I think it's pretty obvious that I understand and am very familiar with ELO, Glicko, Glicko2, and alternative (I mentioned Trueskill) algorithms. A lack of understanding would've resulted in my lack of compromise, and really, there is no argument for not having a combined queue other than "the tuning has to be right," and I will not claim my suggested tuning is perfect by any means. > > I can only get you the dulfy quote from the forum post since those forums were archived and the post deleted, it addresses the worse case scenario (that for that patch was being removed) of 5 man premade vs 5 man solo teams. This type of matches happened 1% of the time, and the win ration was 50% or higher for the solo players. If this is the case for 5 vs 1-1-1-1-1, it would stand to reason that a 5 vs 3-1-1, 4-1, or 2-1-1-1, would have similar statistics. I don't know if there are any other more detailed statistics, i wish that was the case, maybe the vote wouldn't have been so misinformed. > > Quote: > >Only 1% of all Ranked matches played in season one were a full five-person premade group vs. a group of five solo players, and even then, the win rate for those five solo player teams in those cases was consistently at or above 50% throughout the entire season. That being said, even though the instances of this specific type of matchup occurring were actually very rare during season one, we still felt that matchmaking would be improved overall if we made sure that this type of match-up was simply no longer possible in future seasons. > > Source: > http://dulfy.net/2016/02/18/gw2-upcoming-changes-for-pvp-season-two/ > > This also illustrates the point i've been making. They ceded to player opinion and perception despite knowing better, and risked hurting the game mode. Which ended up happening. No matter how much people attempt to deny it. Even with bad balance (team queue was removed a long time after they sorted out immortal chronotanks), pvp was way more active when Ranked teams were a thing than it is now. Should we ignore the fact that a lot of PVE players were tempted to play Spvp for the Legendary PVP wings at that time? You know wings you couldn't get in one season thanks to a time gate, not including the fact that Spvp actually had a decent reward structure for a change?(I played since the PvP gear locker days) I don't think it was really because people had the ability to 5 man queue. S1-S4 was also flawed in its ranked design. It was a grind, you didn't even have to be good and people still received great rewards for playing.(Playing for those pips) System exploitation started there with full premades picking up a random amber rank to get easier matches, or they'll use a alt account to queue as a amber for their team, not only that but once you hit legendary you didn't have to play anymore, if you just wanted a title. Anet didn't do anything about people gaming the system, and it continues to happen up to this day. At that time too without any visible rating decay(nor did it have any ill implications towards players on the system), people would intentionally not play to let their invisible rating fall to get easier matches as well. Spvp's playerbase took a another hit after they revamped the rewards(no more easy ascended armor), so PVE main players no longer had much of an interest with the game mode anymore(Most didn't find conquest really enjoyable.), and new blood no longer tempted to try. Then everything else happened ESL/E-Sports scene officially dying, Anet not doing anything about the exploitation, People that were competitive with this game left since as previously stated the actual real team competative scene is dead(No more ESL Tournaments with prize pools). Added after the fact, a long time of waiting for Anet to do something meaningful about the people continually doing shady s**t (System Exploiting/Match Manipulation/Breaking ToS) only to find out they're not going to do anything about it, and basically soft supporting it. There was no point, there's no preserving the competative integrity for people that have been playing legit. Spvp had the potential to be a healthy lively game mode but instead rotted because it wasn't cared for, it was sacrificed for memes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > Important to point out the two things that players are saying who are pro 5 man premades in ranked: > * Allowing players to create 5 man premades is the ONLY way to ensure that no one is throwing games on your team's side. > * Players want to be able to play in teams with their friends. ATs are not frequent enough to replace 5 man ranked play. > > Also important to point out how match manipulation has become a far far greater and much more evident problem than: "wah wah we don't have enough 5 man teams and, wah wah the solo ques are so tired of being farmed by 5 man teams." <- Which are two very contradicting statements that are entirely debatable and in no way evident towards each other in any way shape or form. > > Oh is it que times that everyone will bring up next? I'd like to state that I'd much rather play 2 ranked games a day that I knew were clean, than 10 ranked games a day where half of the games were dirty and riddled with match manipulations. Thank you very much, no question behind it. > This doesn't make sense. If you'd rather play 2 ranked games per day as a pre-made, then ATs are tailor made for you. They happen more than twice per day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > Important to point out the two things that players are saying who are pro 5 man premades in ranked: > > * Allowing players to create 5 man premades is the ONLY way to ensure that no one is throwing games on your team's side. > > * Players want to be able to play in teams with their friends. ATs are not frequent enough to replace 5 man ranked play. > > > > Also important to point out how match manipulation has become a far far greater and much more evident problem than: "wah wah we don't have enough 5 man teams and, wah wah the solo ques are so tired of being farmed by 5 man teams." <- Which are two very contradicting statements that are entirely debatable and in no way evident towards each other in any way shape or form. > > > > Oh is it que times that everyone will bring up next? I'd like to state that I'd much rather play 2 ranked games a day that I knew were clean, than 10 ranked games a day where half of the games were dirty and riddled with match manipulations. Thank you very much, no question behind it. > > > > This doesn't make sense. If you'd rather play 2 ranked games per day as a pre-made, then ATs are tailor made for you. They happen more than twice per day. He very clearly made the comparison that he'd rather play 2 fun, engaging, fair games a day instead of 10 games where match manipulation/afkers/griefers were present. Don't just take bits and pieces of the sentence in a **failed** attempt to twist his words. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter You fail to mention how ATs are at set times. Not everyone has the freedom to play during those times. Nor do ATs bear any sort of semblance to fair and competitive competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 > @"Lucentfir.7430" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > @"jcbroe.4329" said: > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" I have no idea what data you're referring to. Please show me the dataset so that we can have a genuine, fact based conversation. > > > > > > Otherwise I have to take your word for it. Which isn't really the same thing, no offense. I'd just prefer a reference point over taking your word for it. > > > > > > To answer your question though, combine my response to Shadowpass about the faults of the current matchmaking implementation with the limitations of a matchmaking algorithms inability to accurately judge the impact of trained communication and coordination. > > > > > > Also I think it's pretty obvious that I understand and am very familiar with ELO, Glicko, Glicko2, and alternative (I mentioned Trueskill) algorithms. A lack of understanding would've resulted in my lack of compromise, and really, there is no argument for not having a combined queue other than "the tuning has to be right," and I will not claim my suggested tuning is perfect by any means. > > > > I can only get you the dulfy quote from the forum post since those forums were archived and the post deleted, it addresses the worse case scenario (that for that patch was being removed) of 5 man premade vs 5 man solo teams. This type of matches happened 1% of the time, and the win ration was 50% or higher for the solo players. If this is the case for 5 vs 1-1-1-1-1, it would stand to reason that a 5 vs 3-1-1, 4-1, or 2-1-1-1, would have similar statistics. I don't know if there are any other more detailed statistics, i wish that was the case, maybe the vote wouldn't have been so misinformed. > > > > Quote: > > >Only 1% of all Ranked matches played in season one were a full five-person premade group vs. a group of five solo players, and even then, the win rate for those five solo player teams in those cases was consistently at or above 50% throughout the entire season. That being said, even though the instances of this specific type of matchup occurring were actually very rare during season one, we still felt that matchmaking would be improved overall if we made sure that this type of match-up was simply no longer possible in future seasons. > > > > Source: > > http://dulfy.net/2016/02/18/gw2-upcoming-changes-for-pvp-season-two/ > > > > This also illustrates the point i've been making. They ceded to player opinion and perception despite knowing better, and risked hurting the game mode. Which ended up happening. No matter how much people attempt to deny it. Even with bad balance (team queue was removed a long time after they sorted out immortal chronotanks), pvp was way more active when Ranked teams were a thing than it is now. > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > @"jcbroe.4329" said: > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" I have no idea what data you're referring to. Please show me the dataset so that we can have a genuine, fact based conversation. > > > > > > Otherwise I have to take your word for it. Which isn't really the same thing, no offense. I'd just prefer a reference point over taking your word for it. > > > > > > To answer your question though, combine my response to Shadowpass about the faults of the current matchmaking implementation with the limitations of a matchmaking algorithms inability to accurately judge the impact of trained communication and coordination. > > > > > > Also I think it's pretty obvious that I understand and am very familiar with ELO, Glicko, Glicko2, and alternative (I mentioned Trueskill) algorithms. A lack of understanding would've resulted in my lack of compromise, and really, there is no argument for not having a combined queue other than "the tuning has to be right," and I will not claim my suggested tuning is perfect by any means. > > > > I can only get you the dulfy quote from the forum post since those forums were archived and the post deleted, it addresses the worse case scenario (that for that patch was being removed) of 5 man premade vs 5 man solo teams. This type of matches happened 1% of the time, and the win ration was 50% or higher for the solo players. If this is the case for 5 vs 1-1-1-1-1, it would stand to reason that a 5 vs 3-1-1, 4-1, or 2-1-1-1, would have similar statistics. I don't know if there are any other more detailed statistics, i wish that was the case, maybe the vote wouldn't have been so misinformed. > > > > Quote: > > >Only 1% of all Ranked matches played in season one were a full five-person premade group vs. a group of five solo players, and even then, the win rate for those five solo player teams in those cases was consistently at or above 50% throughout the entire season. That being said, even though the instances of this specific type of matchup occurring were actually very rare during season one, we still felt that matchmaking would be improved overall if we made sure that this type of match-up was simply no longer possible in future seasons. > > > > Source: > > http://dulfy.net/2016/02/18/gw2-upcoming-changes-for-pvp-season-two/ > > > > This also illustrates the point i've been making. They ceded to player opinion and perception despite knowing better, and risked hurting the game mode. Which ended up happening. No matter how much people attempt to deny it. Even with bad balance (team queue was removed a long time after they sorted out immortal chronotanks), pvp was way more active when Ranked teams were a thing than it is now. > > Should we ignore the fact that a lot of PVE players were tempted to play Spvp for the Legendary PVP wings at that time? You know wings you couldn't get in one season thanks to a time gate, not including the fact that Spvp actually had a decent reward structure for a change?(I played since the PvP gear locker days) I don't think it was really because people had the ability to 5 man queue. The wings came a long time before the decline in population, you can't really say that one lead to the other. In fact i don't even think that those wings led to a noticeable increase, since there was a tug-o-war between how bad the balance was and the allure of the wings. The ability to 5 man queue was there from the start, from the days that ranked was through paid tournaments, to when there was a Solo and a Team Arena, you could always have ranked Team play. And pvp endured through Living world Season 1 drop-offs (i was one), through content droughts, and zerker metas. It endured through the Chronomancer imortality, and only after teams did it get to a point where you can't even get properly matched because there's not enough people. > S1-S4 was also flawed in its ranked design. It was a grind, you didn't even have to be good and people still received great rewards for playing.(Playing for those pips) As opposed to now? If anything, you get easier pips now, since you don't get negative pips for chests. >System exploitation started there with full premades picking up a random amber rank to get easier matches, or they'll use a alt account to queue as a amber for their team, not only that but once you hit legendary you didn't have to play anymore, if you just wanted a title. Anet didn't do anything about people gaming the system, and it continues to happen up to this day. At that time too without any visible rating decay(nor did it have any ill implications towards players on the system), people would intentionally not play to let their invisible rating fall to get easier matches as well. That changed in Season 2, when they added the setting that your team's Rank was based on your top player, so that adding a lower tier player couldn't be used to lower your ranking. Yeah, we can see that getting rid of teams really stopped people losing rank on purpose, or win-trading. Not that a lot of people as soon as they hit plat, they start losing on purpose to keep being able to duo-queue. No, that doesn't happen at all any more, does it? > > Spvp's playerbase took a another hit after they revamped the rewards(no more easy ascended armor), so PVE main players no longer had much of an interest with the game mode anymore(Most didn't find conquest really enjoyable.), and new blood no longer tempted to try. Wait, what? First paragraph you claim that people flocked to PvP for the rewards, now they left because Ascended armor was harder to get? When in fact it was only added to the game at the same season they removed team queues. > Then everything else happened ESL/E-Sports scene officially dying, At the start of season 6, the season after they removed team queues. > Anet not doing anything about the exploitation, Way less complaints when Team queues were a thing. >People that were competitive with this game left since as previously stated the actual real team competative scene is dead(No more ESL Tournaments with prize pools). Again, because there was a lot of the competitive component riding on guild teams in Ranked, which was killed by removing team queues. >Added after the fact, a long time of waiting for Anet to do something meaningful about the people continually doing shady s**t (System Exploiting/Match Manipulation/Breaking ToS) only to find out they're not going to do anything about it, and basically soft supporting it. Match manipulation and hacking have been mostly prevalent only in recent Seasons, and mostly (if not exclusively) after Ranked teams was removed. >There was no point, there's no preserving the competative integrity for people that have been playing legit. Spvp had the potential to be a healthy lively game mode but instead rotted because it wasn't cared for, it was sacrificed for memes. It was sacrificed for PvE farmers that weren't competitive enough to get a team to queue with, and then cried so much about it in the forums that Arena Net caved and removed the principal competitive mode of the game. Basically you said a lot, but nothing that demonstrates that Team queues weren't positive for the game, that their removal didn't coincide with a worsening of the decay of PvP to the point of being removed from "professional" e-sports competition. It doesn't take a genius, you can't have a regeneration of top-tier elite players and professional or semi-professional teams if the game's environment doesn't allow for teams to compete at the game. Sure there's scrimmages, and now ATs (which are too little way too late). But players that are just starting, and aren't really totally savvy or into a more serious competitive play won't even think or know where or how to arrange scrims. That kind of need or knowledge comes later, at a stage that the current game doesn't even allow, because teams are removed from the competition. ATs are pretty much the same. There's no proper rank separation, so "young" teams get discouraged instantly because they're matched poorly. Without a proper team ladder system, you can't have proper team competition. Without proper team competition in a team-based game, it's not really a team-based game. It's a nonsensical idea, to be kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucentfir.7430 Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > Should we ignore the fact that a lot of PVE players were tempted to play Spvp for the Legendary PVP wings at that time? You know wings you couldn't get in one season thanks to a time gate, not including the fact that Spvp actually had a decent reward structure for a change?(I played since the PvP gear locker days) I don't think it was really because people had the ability to 5 man queue. > > The wings came a long time before the decline in population, you can't really say that one lead to the other. In fact i don't even think that those wings led to a noticeable increase, since there was a tug-o-war between how bad the balance was and the allure of the wings. > > > The ability to 5 man queue was there from the start, from the days that ranked was through paid tournaments, to when there was a Solo and a Team Arena, you could always have ranked Team play. And pvp endured through Living world Season 1 drop-offs (i was one), through content droughts, and zerker metas. It endured through the Chronomancer imortality, and only after teams did it get to a point where you can't even get properly matched because there's not enough people. > > > S1-S4 was also flawed in its ranked design. It was a grind, you didn't even have to be good and people still received great rewards for playing.(Playing for those pips) > As opposed to now? If anything, you get easier pips now, since you don't get negative pips for chests. > > >System exploitation started there with full premades picking up a random amber rank to get easier matches, or they'll use a alt account to queue as a amber for their team, not only that but once you hit legendary you didn't have to play anymore, if you just wanted a title. Anet didn't do anything about people gaming the system, and it continues to happen up to this day. At that time too without any visible rating decay(nor did it have any ill implications towards players on the system), people would intentionally not play to let their invisible rating fall to get easier matches as well. > That changed in Season 2, when they added the setting that your team's Rank was based on your top player, so that adding a lower tier player couldn't be used to lower your ranking. > > Yeah, we can see that getting rid of teams really stopped people losing rank on purpose, or win-trading. Not that a lot of people as soon as they hit plat, they start losing on purpose to keep being able to duo-queue. No, that doesn't happen at all any more, does it? > > > > Spvp's playerbase took a another hit after they revamped the rewards(no more easy ascended armor), so PVE main players no longer had much of an interest with the game mode anymore(Most didn't find conquest really enjoyable.), and new blood no longer tempted to try. > Wait, what? First paragraph you claim that people flocked to PvP for the rewards, now they left because Ascended armor was harder to get? When in fact it was only added to the game at the same season they removed team queues. > > > Then everything else happened ESL/E-Sports scene officially dying, > At the start of season 6, the season after they removed team queues. > > > Anet not doing anything about the exploitation, > Way less complaints when Team queues were a thing. > > >People that were competitive with this game left since as previously stated the actual real team competative scene is dead(No more ESL Tournaments with prize pools). > Again, because there was a lot of the competitive component riding on guild teams in Ranked, which was killed by removing team queues. > > >Added after the fact, a long time of waiting for Anet to do something meaningful about the people continually doing shady s**t (System Exploiting/Match Manipulation/Breaking ToS) only to find out they're not going to do anything about it, and basically soft supporting it. > Match manipulation and hacking have been mostly prevalent only in recent Seasons, and mostly (if not exclusively) after Ranked teams was removed. > > >There was no point, there's no preserving the competative integrity for people that have been playing legit. Spvp had the potential to be a healthy lively game mode but instead rotted because it wasn't cared for, it was sacrificed for memes. > It was sacrificed for PvE farmers that weren't competitive enough to get a team to queue with, and then cried so much about it in the forums that Arena Net caved and removed the principal competitive mode of the game. > > Basically you said a lot, but nothing that demonstrates that Team queues weren't positive for the game, that their removal didn't coincide with a worsening of the decay of PvP to the point of being removed from "professional" e-sports competition. > It doesn't take a genius, you can't have a regeneration of top-tier elite players and professional or semi-professional teams if the game's environment doesn't allow for teams to compete at the game. Sure there's scrimmages, and now ATs (which are too little way too late). > But players that are just starting, and aren't really totally savvy or into a more serious competitive play won't even think or know where or how to arrange scrims. That kind of need or knowledge comes later, at a stage that the current game doesn't even allow, because teams are removed from the competition. > ATs are pretty much the same. There's no proper rank separation, so "young" teams get discouraged instantly because they're matched poorly. > > Without a proper team ladder system, you can't have proper team competition. Without proper team competition in a team-based game, it's not really a team-based game. > It's a nonsensical idea, to be kind. > > 1: The point of bringing up the wings and league rewards was to point out it brought new blood into a not really cared about/already stagnant game mode. It basically sent the message that Anet acknowledges this as a game mode they wanted to support. Not to mention rewards meant a Multi gamemode player might consider it worth their time to actually do something they might have fun doing. I think i misinterpreted your definition of 5 man queues since you bring up the times of Solo/Team Arenas. When someone says 5 man queue I interpret it as mixed ranked queue. If you're talking about Premades 5v5s then I'm inclined to agree with the part of activeness and participation. 2: Pips were used as skill rating for matchmaking, combined with rewards, At least now with the current system you have division thresholds and uses MMR with decay so you can't really game the system that easily anymore like you could with S1-S4 Systems. 3: You see here's the real kicker, that changed in season 2 but that didn't stop them from finding new ways to game the system , and why people are a bit flustered at Anet when it comes to giving offenders harsher punishments, it's because some of the offenders from that time are still offenders for different offenses up to current day. When your supposed top brand of players are having a hand in all the shady business up to current day. So yes obviously it does happen, because the root of the problem is never dealt with in a meaningful manner. 4: A reward structure and prestigious Legendary Backpiece (Supposedly, ya right) were added in Season 1 those are the rewards I was talking about, the changes to the rewards came with the current system, came around season 5-6, more people came for the ascended armor, but once they added Grandmaster Marks to them they bailed. Though I guess it was somewhat remedied once they added the ability to make Legendary armor at the end of S7. 5: If you're trying to play this game as a E-sport or competative level with a team, having the seen being dropped officially doesn't bode well for said scene and growth. 6: I'm pretty sure there was still a lot of complaining about other people cheesing the system, when someone explains how its done. 7: So basically farming pugs to get a confidence boost? Being denied that killed the competative scene? 8. It started a season or two after when the current system (MMR System) got added, because people gotta have their E-peen title like God of PvP. Fun to know it's very likely the same people that loopholed and gamed the system in the past. You can blame Anet for the increase of hacks and Match Manipulation, considering it's okay for the top end to do shady things, and there's no real consequence to it. 9,: Sacrificed for the memes, because the top end is a slag fest, the top end doesn't care about what it does even if it'll sully the game mode, and it trickles down. I never said Team Queues weren't positive for the game mode, I think they can be a great stepping stone, but only in it's own specific queue. With solo being a queue for only solo player matches, and Mixed Rank Queue (1-5 party) for people that want to roll that way. Having it the old way pugs vs full premades as the only type, you're going to discourage players either way. Mixed Ranked Team Queue has my support if it has it's own queue option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light In The Darkness.1615940277 Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 NO WE DONT NEED 5 MAN RANKED QUEUES THIS WILL ENHANCE WINTRADING AS MENTIONNED BEFORE. THIS IS NOT HOW TO GET RID OF WINTRADING. THE BEST WAY TO GET RID OF WINTRADING IS TO BRING BACK MONTHLY SUBSCRIPTION ! A MINIMUM OF 4.99$ WOULD BE SUFFICIENT AS PEOPLE WONT BE ABLE TO AUTOMATE ACCOUNT CREATION ANYMORE AND SPAM RANKED WITH BOTS SINCE 4.99$ ON EACH ACCOUNT WOULD BECOME A BUDGET. AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT ANET : 4.99$ IS THE PRICE OF A BURGER : ANYONE CAN AFFORD IT SO THE "OMG TOO EXPENSIVE" POINT IS NOT VALID AND WOULD GREATLY BOOST YOUR REVENUE. DONT EVER BRING BACK 5 MAN QUEUE PERIOD . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted March 18, 2018 Author Share Posted March 18, 2018 This isn't about getting rid of win trading, which is something that could never be accomplished in an environment that was not 5 man premade vs. 5 man premade only. It is about being able to prevent it from effecting YOU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 > @"Lucentfir.7430" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > > Should we ignore the fact that a lot of PVE players were tempted to play Spvp for the Legendary PVP wings at that time? You know wings you couldn't get in one season thanks to a time gate, not including the fact that Spvp actually had a decent reward structure for a change?(I played since the PvP gear locker days) I don't think it was really because people had the ability to 5 man queue. > > > > > The wings came a long time before the decline in population, you can't really say that one lead to the other. In fact i don't even think that those wings led to a noticeable increase, since there was a tug-o-war between how bad the balance was and the allure of the wings. > > > > The ability to 5 man queue was there from the start, from the days that ranked was through paid tournaments, to when there was a Solo and a Team Arena, you could always have ranked Team play. And pvp endured through Living world Season 1 drop-offs (i was one), through content droughts, and zerker metas. It endured through the Chronomancer imortality, and only after teams did it get to a point where you can't even get properly matched because there's not enough people. >> > > > > S1-S4 was also flawed in its ranked design. It was a grind, you didn't even have to be good and people still received great rewards for playing.(Playing for those pips) > > As opposed to now? If anything, you get easier pips now, since you don't get negative pips for chests. > > > > > >System exploitation started there with full premades picking up a random amber rank to get easier matches, or they'll use a alt account to queue as a amber for their team, not only that but once you hit legendary you didn't have to play anymore, if you just wanted a title. Anet didn't do anything about people gaming the system, and it continues to happen up to this day. At that time too without any visible rating decay(nor did it have any ill implications towards players on the system), people would intentionally not play to let their invisible rating fall to get easier matches as well. > > That changed in Season 2, when they added the setting that your team's Rank was based on your top player, so that adding a lower tier player couldn't be used to lower your ranking. > > > > > Yeah, we can see that getting rid of teams really stopped people losing rank on purpose, or win-trading. Not that a lot of people as soon as they hit plat, they start losing on purpose to keep being able to duo-queue. No, that doesn't happen at all any more, does it? > > > > > > Spvp's playerbase took a another hit after they revamped the rewards(no more easy ascended armor), so PVE main players no longer had much of an interest with the game mode anymore(Most didn't find conquest really enjoyable.), and new blood no longer tempted to try. > > Wait, what? First paragraph you claim that people flocked to PvP for the rewards, now they left because Ascended armor was harder to get? When in fact it was only added to the game at the same season they removed team queues. >> > > > > Then everything else happened ESL/E-Sports scene officially dying, > > At the start of season 6, the season after they removed team queues. >> > > > > Anet not doing anything about the exploitation, > > Way less complaints when Team queues were a thing. >> > > > >People that were competitive with this game left since as previously stated the actual real team competative scene is dead(No more ESL Tournaments with prize pools). > > Again, because there was a lot of the competitive component riding on guild teams in Ranked, which was killed by removing team queues. >> > > > >Added after the fact, a long time of waiting for Anet to do something meaningful about the people continually doing shady s**t (System Exploiting/Match Manipulation/Breaking ToS) only to find out they're not going to do anything about it, and basically soft supporting it. > > Match manipulation and hacking have been mostly prevalent only in recent Seasons, and mostly (if not exclusively) after Ranked teams was removed. >> > > > >There was no point, there's no preserving the competative integrity for people that have been playing legit. Spvp had the potential to be a healthy lively game mode but instead rotted because it wasn't cared for, it was sacrificed for memes. > > It was sacrificed for PvE farmers that weren't competitive enough to get a team to queue with, and then cried so much about it in the forums that Arena Net caved and removed the principal competitive mode of the game. >> > > > Basically you said a lot, but nothing that demonstrates that Team queues weren't positive for the game, that their removal didn't coincide with a worsening of the decay of PvP to the point of being removed from "professional" e-sports competition. >> > It doesn't take a genius, you can't have a regeneration of top-tier elite players and professional or semi-professional teams if the game's environment doesn't allow for teams to compete at the game. Sure there's scrimmages, and now ATs (which are too little way too late). > > But players that are just starting, and aren't really totally savvy or into a more serious competitive play won't even think or know where or how to arrange scrims. That kind of need or knowledge comes later, at a stage that the current game doesn't even allow, because teams are removed from the competition. > > ATs are pretty much the same. There's no proper rank separation, so "young" teams get discouraged instantly because they're matched poorly. >> > > > Without a proper team ladder system, you can't have proper team competition. Without proper team competition in a team-based game, it's not really a team-based game. >> > It's a nonsensical idea, to be kind. >> > >> > >>> 1: The point of bringing up the wings and league rewards was to point out it brought new blood into a not really cared about/already stagnant game mode. It basically sent the message that Anet acknowledges this as a game mode they wanted to support. Not to mention rewards meant a Multi gamemode player might consider it worth their time to actually do something they might have fun doing. I think i misinterpreted your definition of 5 man queues since you bring up the times of Solo/Team Arenas. When someone says 5 man queue I interpret it as mixed ranked queue. If you're talking about Premades 5v5s then I'm inclined to agree with the part of activeness and participation. >>> >>> 2: Pips were used as skill rating for matchmaking, combined with rewards, At least now with the current system you have division thresholds and uses MMR with decay so you can't really game the system that easily anymore like you could with S1-S4 Systems. >>> >>> 3: You see here's the real kicker, that changed in season 2 but that didn't stop them from finding new ways to game the system , and why people are a bit flustered at Anet when it comes to giving offenders harsher punishments, it's because some of the offenders from that time are still offenders for different offenses up to current day. When your supposed top brand of players are having a hand in all the shady business up to current day. So yes obviously it does happen, because the root of the problem is never dealt with in a meaningful manner. >>> >>> 4: A reward structure and prestigious Legendary Backpiece (Supposedly, ya right) were added in Season 1 those are the rewards I was talking about, the changes to the rewards came with the current system, came around season 5-6, more people came for the ascended armor, but once they added Grandmaster Marks to them they bailed. Though I guess it was somewhat remedied once they added the ability to make Legendary armor at the end of S7. >>> >>> 5: If you're trying to play this game as a E-sport or competative level with a team, having the seen being dropped officially doesn't bode well for said scene and growth. >>> >>> 6: I'm pretty sure there was still a lot of complaining about other people cheesing the system, when someone explains how its done. >>> >>> 7: So basically farming pugs to get a confidence boost? Being denied that killed the competative scene? > >> > >>8. It started a season or two after when the current system (MMR System) got added, because people gotta have their E-kitten title like God of PvP. Fun to know it's very likely the same people that loopholed and gamed the system in the past. You can blame Anet for the increase of hacks and Match Manipulation, considering it's okay for the top end to do shady things, and there's no real consequence to it. >>> > >> >>> 9,: Sacrificed for the memes, because the top end is a slag fest, the top end doesn't care about what it does even if it'll sully the game mode, and it trickles down. >>> I never said Team Queues weren't positive for the game mode, I think they can be a great stepping stone, but only in it's own specific queue. With solo being a queue for only solo player matches, and Mixed Rank Queue (1-5 party) for people that want to roll that way. Having it the old way pugs vs full premades as the only type, you're going to discourage players either way. Mixed Ranked Team Queue has my support if it has it's own queue option. >>> 1. I'm not saying wings didn't bring people in. I'm saying that might actually have been a problem. PvP numbers were at an all time high (according to Colin Johanson's words at the time, don't ask for a quote, since honestly it takes too long to dig for those) not long before HoT came out (wings were released 6 months after HoT came out). They had already demonstrated that PvP was being massively supported with bigger pro prizes, and more coverage. PvP was pretty much the only content that was actually improving during the pre-HoT "content drought". I mean just ranked team content, either with flex or dedicated queues (do note that for the most part the game used flex queues, the exception was during the team arena times). Until season 5 pvp always had a ladder for team content. I'm actually more concerned with the possibility that that influx of people less interested in the actual game mode, just on the easy rewards, actually "polluted" the mode's population which led to misrepresentation of what would be the best for the game and caused the tragedy of errors and mismanagement that followed. 2. Yes, and pips could be lost. So it was harder to get pips at higher reward tiers. Right now you **always** win pips, regardless of match outcome, making it **much easier** to get the reward chests, which actually allows people to throw matches with less consequence. Before if you lost matches to somehow stay in the same league, you'd be delaying your reward. Now you can do that and still get the pips. It's really hard to defend that it used to be easier to game the system, when now you have no punishment for losing matches, reward-wise. 3. Idk what you mean game the system. And how that makes teams worse off for that. If anything, the way teams were matched made it harder for higher ranked players to "farm" weaker ones. Today it's less the case with people losing rank on purpose. 4. Dude... Here's the problem with your argument. The time lines don't add up. Grandmaster Marks (as in the not as cheap Ascended Armor) were introduced mid-season 6. At this point the game had already been removed from ESL. I can tell you my personal experience. I didn't buy a single one of those armors, because i quit PvP in season 5. As did 90% of my friends that played PvP. I'm not saying this is what happened globaly. But the decline preceded the addition of Grandmaster Marks, as its clearly demonstrated by the removal of the game from the competitive aspect prior to the change. 5. You couldn't already play the game competitively as a team, since Team queues were removed one season prior to the game being removed from ESL. Which was probably a huge factor in that decision. You can't have a competitive team game without an avenue for new teams to come up. 6. Pretty sure there wasn't. Except for the biased and already demonstratively untrue claims that premades were having a negative impact on solo players. 7. Again, PUGs, according to DEVS had a win rate over 50% when matching vs 5 man teams. So you can hardly claim they were being farmed. 8. Doesn't dismiss the fact that it was less prevalent when Ranked Teams were a thing. And that Ranked teams **can** be used to alleviate the problem. 9. The game doesn't have enough population for separate queues. It hardly has enough for solo queue as it is. If people leave because team queues they'd leave anyway because solo queue is crap already. You really can't get worse. At this point i think the solution would be for Arena Net to announce a test season for Ranked team queues. Let it go, then publish stats for win rates of teams vs solos, matches played, etc. And compare to current stats. > @"The Light In The Darkness.7364" said: > NO WE DONT NEED 5 MAN RANKED QUEUES THIS WILL ENHANCE WINTRADING AS MENTIONNED BEFORE. THIS IS NOT HOW TO GET RID OF WINTRADING. THE BEST WAY TO GET RID OF WINTRADING IS TO BRING BACK MONTHLY SUBSCRIPTION ! A MINIMUM OF 4.99$ WOULD BE SUFFICIENT AS PEOPLE WONT BE ABLE TO AUTOMATE ACCOUNT CREATION ANYMORE AND SPAM RANKED WITH BOTS SINCE 4.99$ ON EACH ACCOUNT WOULD BECOME A BUDGET. AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT ANET : 4.99$ IS THE PRICE OF A BURGER : ANYONE CAN AFFORD IT SO THE "OMG TOO EXPENSIVE" POINT IS NOT VALID AND WOULD GREATLY BOOST YOUR REVENUE. > > DONT > EVER > BRING > BACK > 5 MAN > QUEUE > PERIOD > . > OOH LOOK I CAN TYPE IN ALL CAPS AS WELL!! /s 1. How would Team Queues enhance wintrading? If anything it will reduce it. Arena Net already demonstrated they can detect win-trading. And it would be more noticeable if it's done by full teams vs single players. So if anything it will make it easier to notice. At the same time, having ranked teams will fix what Arena Net can't. Arena Net **can** punish win-traders, but they can't give people their points back for having been victim of wintraders on their teams. With pre-made teams, and the revival of the ability to team up with previous pugs on following matches you can severely reduce the possibility for players to get harmed by wintraders. 2. The game never had a sub. Having a sub won't help anything. Most people that do win-trade have bought the game. The sub is meaningless. > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > This isn't about getting rid of win trading, which is something that could never be accomplished in an environment that was not 5 man premade vs. 5 man premade only. It is about being able to prevent it from effecting YOU. > Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted March 18, 2018 Author Share Posted March 18, 2018 The idea that 5 man premade play would enhance win trading is simply not true at all. I understand that at first glance you believe: "A 5 man team ques and has 2 or 3 alts que'ing at same time, to land in a team and throw for a super easy win." I understand you believe from a simple analysis, that bringing back 5 man que would mean: "Going against win traders AND 5 man premades." but that is a conclusion based from a lot of misunderstanding. Here is more realistically what would be happening: * 5 man premade ques and has 3 alts que'ing at the same time with them, who are ready to throw games for the 5 man team. * 5 man team quickly realizes that they are often being placed against other 5 man teams and not teams with spaces for their alt throws to land in. * This means the alt throw solos will be landing in rando games with no real prerogative to throw for one side or the other. Their decisions to try hard and win or throw the game, will be mostly decided upon who is with them, who is against them, and if that alt could benefit from a rating gain or a loss, during w/e phase of their win trading they are in. <- You aren't gonna change this with solo/duo or 5 man ques or even with the frequency of Anet suspensions/bans. * 5 man win trade premade sometimes goes against 4 man teams with one open slot for an alt throw to land in. Depending on the ratings of the players in the 5 man premade win trade team vs. the ratings of the players on the 4 man legit team and vs. the ratings of the alt throw solo ques, there is volatile and much less likelihood of an alt throw solo landing in that 4 man premade because these average premade team ratings vs. average premade team ratings are not as predictable as the solo/duo only system, where win traders can reliably que their solo alts at certain ratings, to make sure they get into a match with them. Keep in mind that for all the alt throw solos out there, there are just as many or more, legit solos. * 5 man win trade premade sometimes goes against 3 man teams who have to pick up a couple solos or a duo. Now the chances are beginning to rise that an alt throw solo may land in that team, but it is still not yet even half the chance of getting win traders with you, when you are solo que. Also, if you're going to form a 3 man team, why not just make a 5 man team? Remember that this system, the whole while, is allowing players the choice to block throwing on their teams. The win trading is still happening and it always will be. But this gives players a choice to omit themselves from the effects of the win trading. **If everyone were to play wisely and find a 5 man team, no one would be effected by win trading.** * Rare occasions when a 5 man team goes against a team of solos. Usually when this happens, it means that 5 man team is rated LOWER and the solos are rated HIGHER. For those who do not remember, they actually did a good job of balancing that out during the last patch before 5 man was removed. This is responsible for the posts you are all seeing about how solos were competing against 5 man teams, just fine. But the effect of win trading still stands and there are high chances here, that a person or even two on the team of solos, just might be win traders. But hey, this is how it always is ANYWAY, even in solo/duo only. * All of the above will more than likely result in win traders doing smaller ques like duos/trios and then 3 or 4 on alts, in hopes of going against other duos/trios or solos because it actually wont' be as practical to run it as 5 man when you're being put against other 5 man teams. In fact, if the win traders que as solos and duos and have to go AGAINST 5 man teams, those teams they go against will inherently have lower ratings than they do, due to how the system works. And since the win traders are all sitting in a discord anyway, it doesn't matter if it looks like their team is all solos, they are 5 man premade with voicechat anyway. All que'ing 5 man will do for them, is jack up their average party rating and make matches more difficult! But hey, **legit players could at least have the choice to benefit from the 5 man play by blocking win trade alts, where as it will in all likelihood complicate the win trade techniques.** * And it's not going to significantly increase que times for anyone other than the people who are making the 5 man teams. So stop being blinded by the fear of "OMGERD 5 MANS AND WIN TRADERS @ SAME TIMEZ" and start understanding that 5 man que is the only way to prevent yourself from being effected by win trading. Stop talking about "eliminating win trading." Cleeeeeeeearly that is never going to happen. If Arenanet wanted or even could do that realistically, it would have happened a long time ago. In other words, bringing back 5 man que is not going to make anything anymore difficult for the solo que community than it already is, but it will enable the choice for players to actually block the win trading from effecting them. All solo que only is doing, is denying a LARGE margin of the active & veteran spvp player base the CHOICE to play with friends and the CHOICE to block themselves from the effects of win trading. This all because of an ill misinformed mob based opinion from the casual solo que demographic, who want the placebo of feeling like the competition is fair, who don't care about the actual effects of competition being fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: >>> The idea that 5 man premade play would enhance win trading is simply not true at all. I understand that at first glance you believe: "A 5 man team ques and has 2 or 3 alts que'ing at same time, to land in a team and throw for a super easy win." I understand you believe from a simple analysis, that bringing back 5 man que would mean: "Going against win traders AND 5 man premades." but that is a conclusion based from a lot of misunderstanding. Here is more realistically what would be happening: >>> * 5 man premade ques and has 3 alts que'ing at the same time with them, who are ready to throw games for the 5 man team. >>> * 5 man team quickly realizes that they are often being placed against other 5 man teams and not teams with spaces for their alt throws to land in. >>> * This means the alt throw solos will be landing in rando games with no real prerogative to throw for one side or the other. Their decisions to try hard and win or throw the game, will be mostly decided upon who is with them, who is against them, and if that alt could benefit from a rating gain or a loss, during w/e phase of their win trading they are in. <- You aren't gonna change this with solo/duo or 5 man ques or even with the frequency of Anet suspensions/bans. >>> * 5 man win trade premade sometimes goes against 4 man teams with one open slot for an alt throw to land in. Depending on the ratings of the players in the 5 man premade win trade team vs. the ratings of the players on the 4 man legit team and vs. the ratings of the alt throw solo ques, there is volatile and much less likelihood of an alt throw solo landing in that 4 man premade because these average premade team ratings vs. average premade team ratings are not as predictable as the solo/duo only system, where win traders can reliably que their solo alts at certain ratings, to make sure they get into a match with them. Keep in mind that for all the alt throw solos out there, there are just as many or more, legit solos. >>> * 5 man win trade premade sometimes goes against 3 man teams who have to pick up a couple solos or a duo. Now the chances are beginning to rise that an alt throw solo may land in that team, but it is still not yet even half the chance of getting win traders with you, when you are solo que. Also, if you're going to form a 3 man team, why not just make a 5 man team? Remember that this system, the whole while, is allowing players the choice to block throwing on their teams. The win trading is still happening and it always will be. But this gives players a choice to omit themselves from the effects of the win trading. **If everyone were to play wisely and find a 5 man team, no one would be effected by win trading.** >>> * Rare occasions when a 5 man team goes against a team of solos. Usually when this happens, it means that 5 man team is rated LOWER and the solos are rated HIGHER. For those who do not remember, they actually did a good job of balancing that out during the last patch before 5 man was removed. This is responsible for the posts you are all seeing about how solos were competing against 5 man teams, just fine. But the effect of win trading still stands and there are high chances here, that a person or even two on the team of solos, just might be win traders. But hey, this is how it always is ANYWAY, even in solo/duo only. >>> * All of the above will more than likely result in win traders doing smaller ques like duos/trios and then 3 or 4 on alts, in hopes of going against other duos/trios or solos because it actually wont' be as practical to run it as 5 man when you're being put against other 5 man teams. In fact, if the win traders que as solos and duos and have to go AGAINST 5 man teams, those teams they go against will inherently have lower ratings than they do, due to how the system works. And since the win traders are all sitting in a discord anyway, it doesn't matter if it looks like their team is all solos, they are 5 man premade with voicechat anyway. All que'ing 5 man will do for them, is jack up their average party rating and make matches more difficult! But hey, **legit players could at least have the choice to benefit from the 5 man play by blocking win trade alts, where as it will in all likelihood complicate the win trade techniques.** >>> * And it's not going to significantly increase que times for anyone other than the people who are making the 5 man teams. >>> >>> So stop being blinded by the fear of "OMGERD 5 MANS AND WIN TRADERS @ SAME TIMEZ" and start understanding that 5 man que is the only way to prevent yourself from being effected by win trading. Stop talking about "eliminating win trading." Cleeeeeeeearly that is never going to happen. If Arenanet wanted or even could do that realistically, it would have happened a long time ago. >>> >>> In other words, bringing back 5 man que is not going to make anything anymore difficult for the solo que community than it already is, but it will enable the choice for players to actually block the win trading from effecting them. All solo que only is doing, is denying a LARGE margin of the active & veteran spvp player base the CHOICE to play with friends and the CHOICE to block themselves from the effects of win trading. This all because of an ill misinformed mob based opinion from the casual solo que demographic, who want the placebo of feeling like the competition is fair, who don't care about the actual effects of competition being fair. There's no chance that a 5 man pre-made lands vs a full team of solo players if they bring back the rules that were in place just before they removed ranked teams, since they made it so that you'd never queue vs 5 solo players with a pre-made of 5 players since season 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 Ah yeah, I forgot about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterPeanut.9746 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Ghos.1326" said: > > they are trying to bring this back, in the form of repeatable automated tournaments. There will be one AT that will be repeatable, from my understanding, and there will still be the other ATs and the MATs as well. > > That's great, it really is. It still does not fix, mend or address the state of ranked seasons however. When a legit non win trading player can play as high as 1700 one day, as low as 1400 the next, then back up to 1700 the day after, that's volatile man. I remember in earlier ranked seasons, I would play tightly within 50 rating of a max rating achieved & lowest rating achieved. Nowadays, it's more like 300 rating. <- This is an indication of the rating system completely falling apart. There are too many gambits involved in ranked seasons, each and every time we que, for it be anywhere even near a practical system for indicating a player's active skill level. Despite the masses of children screaming "the coach is bad at match making", the truth is that the biggest gambit factor influencing this volatile rating fluctuation is indeed match manipulation. > > I do want to address what @"ButterPeanut.9746" said: > Gotta get social to get a good idea of what's going on. By that I mean, go into different discords, read their chat logs, pop in and listen to them every once in awhile, and more so than anything, notice the patterns. When 4 or 5 guys all simultaneously go offline on you saying "alright we're taking a break" then all log in the next day +150 rating, they just might be win traders. When there is a day that all of these guys you know just aren't online at all but you can see all of their ratings rising in your friend panel, they just might be win traders. When friends who you have known & played with for years, who have ALWAYS played at a certain exact rating, suddenly abandon everyone and seemingly are offline 75% of the season, yet have hundreds and hundreds of games played, and are suddenly playing at the 1800 threshold, they just might be win traders. When you face players in ATs, who are poor in combat, poor in rotations and generally lack understanding of their class role, yet those players are playing at 1700+ on the leaderboards??????????????????????????????????? They just might be win traders. > > As far as in-match evident behavior goes, you're telling me that you don't have games where you see obviously questionable activity? That's insane man. I mean seriously, this last season was by FAR the worst yet. I'd say about every other match I had, displayed super questionable behavior. About 1/3 or 1/4 matches displayed definite win trading. I can't help but to wonder if you haven't taken it upon yourself to notice this yet. These are the kinds of things I see happening in RANKED seasons but don't see happening in unranked "where there is no reason to win trade": > * Firebrands & Scourges join my team, then swap to Thief. <- This is to block other Firebrand/Scourge joins and log in as something that can explode on contact in combat. > * Players who wade into combat only ever pushing #1 spam, never heal, never use utilities, explode on contact. <- Do you really think these players are inherently that bad? I've been training new players for years in this game and let me tell ya, even new players know how to push button other than #1. > * Players making the worst possible rotational decisions. I don't mean pushing far and dying or +ing home when it isn't needed. No, I mean advanced level rotation throwing. After awhile, it occurs to you that the person doing it would have to have an advanced understanding on conquest, to be able to always be in the worst & most useless possible place at all times. Not once ever doing anything helpful or correct, the entire match. Not once. > * Players who call out "I'll cap home" then don't cap home and continue to display the above types of behavior. > * Classes that counter an enemy class 1v1 but bail nodes 1v1 for absolutely no reason other than to give them the decap. Great example: A DH is sitting at mid in Forest. Then an enemy Thief comes around the back and gets on the node with him. The DH knows he is there because he gets hit by the Thief and the Thief even gets hit by traps and goes half health but the DH just bails and leaves, with no regard towards the Thief taking the node. Sometimes I'll notice them on the mini map, the DH "for this example used" slightly walks off the node and allows the Thief to decap. Then they both sit there ooc for a questionable amount of time, until other players show up on screen, and then they make it look like they are fighting again. Some of them are brazen enough to sit and have a conversation in the map chat, making it completely obvious that one team is throwing the game. > * Players who push a node, then stand there and let you kill them with little to no effort whatsoever. Players who stand there when you push a node and let you kill them, with little to no effort to survive. By this I mean, they seriously just stand there. They aren't lagging, they are just letting you kill them. > * Very conspicuous whispers before a game starts "You're not gonna win this game". Then when the match starts, there is clearly something very wrong with the match as a player or two on your team exhibit all of the above behavior, resulting in some 500 to 20 blowout. Sometimes it's the other way around, you're trying hard in a losing game and typing in /t chat to toss intel and plan rotations, then someone whispers "it's cool bro, just watch". Then at around a losing 350 to 250 your team of silver 3/gold 1 players magically turns into an AT plat 2 team and comes back for a winning 500 to 300. <- Which, I probably get a lot more of this type of activity due to my advocacy towards anti-cheating in the forum and the discord I created dedicated to exposing cheating of all kinds. Some of these guys absolutely love to taunt me. > * Players receiving whispers mid game "I'll give you 20g if you throw the match". I've only ever had this happen a couple of times and that was many many seasons ago. I don't get these types of whispers anymore and it is probably because they know screenshots would be posted in my discord if they did that. > > I just want to stress again, these are things that I don't see happening in unranked. ~ Go figure > > > I don't doubt that you've seen these things happen. I know you are very diligent in your findings. I was merely pointing out that these weren't things that I noticed in my games. Granted, I probably don't pay even 10% as much of attention to it as you do... so i'm sure that is part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > >>> The idea that 5 man premade play would enhance win trading is simply not true at all. I understand that at first glance you believe: "A 5 man team ques and has 2 or 3 alts que'ing at same time, to land in a team and throw for a super easy win." I understand you believe from a simple analysis, that bringing back 5 man que would mean: "Going against win traders AND 5 man premades." but that is a conclusion based from a lot of misunderstanding. Here is more realistically what would be happening: > >>> * 5 man premade ques and has 3 alts que'ing at the same time with them, who are ready to throw games for the 5 man team. > >>> * 5 man team quickly realizes that they are often being placed against other 5 man teams and not teams with spaces for their alt throws to land in. > >>> * This means the alt throw solos will be landing in rando games with no real prerogative to throw for one side or the other. Their decisions to try hard and win or throw the game, will be mostly decided upon who is with them, who is against them, and if that alt could benefit from a rating gain or a loss, during w/e phase of their win trading they are in. <- You aren't gonna change this with solo/duo or 5 man ques or even with the frequency of Anet suspensions/bans. > >>> * 5 man win trade premade sometimes goes against 4 man teams with one open slot for an alt throw to land in. Depending on the ratings of the players in the 5 man premade win trade team vs. the ratings of the players on the 4 man legit team and vs. the ratings of the alt throw solo ques, there is volatile and much less likelihood of an alt throw solo landing in that 4 man premade because these average premade team ratings vs. average premade team ratings are not as predictable as the solo/duo only system, where win traders can reliably que their solo alts at certain ratings, to make sure they get into a match with them. Keep in mind that for all the alt throw solos out there, there are just as many or more, legit solos. > >>> * 5 man win trade premade sometimes goes against 3 man teams who have to pick up a couple solos or a duo. Now the chances are beginning to rise that an alt throw solo may land in that team, but it is still not yet even half the chance of getting win traders with you, when you are solo que. Also, if you're going to form a 3 man team, why not just make a 5 man team? Remember that this system, the whole while, is allowing players the choice to block throwing on their teams. The win trading is still happening and it always will be. But this gives players a choice to omit themselves from the effects of the win trading. **If everyone were to play wisely and find a 5 man team, no one would be effected by win trading.** > >>> * Rare occasions when a 5 man team goes against a team of solos. Usually when this happens, it means that 5 man team is rated LOWER and the solos are rated HIGHER. For those who do not remember, they actually did a good job of balancing that out during the last patch before 5 man was removed. This is responsible for the posts you are all seeing about how solos were competing against 5 man teams, just fine. But the effect of win trading still stands and there are high chances here, that a person or even two on the team of solos, just might be win traders. But hey, this is how it always is ANYWAY, even in solo/duo only. > >>> * All of the above will more than likely result in win traders doing smaller ques like duos/trios and then 3 or 4 on alts, in hopes of going against other duos/trios or solos because it actually wont' be as practical to run it as 5 man when you're being put against other 5 man teams. In fact, if the win traders que as solos and duos and have to go AGAINST 5 man teams, those teams they go against will inherently have lower ratings than they do, due to how the system works. And since the win traders are all sitting in a discord anyway, it doesn't matter if it looks like their team is all solos, they are 5 man premade with voicechat anyway. All que'ing 5 man will do for them, is jack up their average party rating and make matches more difficult! But hey, **legit players could at least have the choice to benefit from the 5 man play by blocking win trade alts, where as it will in all likelihood complicate the win trade techniques.** > >>> * And it's not going to significantly increase que times for anyone other than the people who are making the 5 man teams. > >>> > >>> So stop being blinded by the fear of "OMGERD 5 MANS AND WIN TRADERS @ SAME TIMEZ" and start understanding that 5 man que is the only way to prevent yourself from being effected by win trading. Stop talking about "eliminating win trading." Cleeeeeeeearly that is never going to happen. If Arenanet wanted or even could do that realistically, it would have happened a long time ago. > >>> > >>> In other words, bringing back 5 man que is not going to make anything anymore difficult for the solo que community than it already is, but it will enable the choice for players to actually block the win trading from effecting them. All solo que only is doing, is denying a LARGE margin of the active & veteran spvp player base the CHOICE to play with friends and the CHOICE to block themselves from the effects of win trading. This all because of an ill misinformed mob based opinion from the casual solo que demographic, who want the placebo of feeling like the competition is fair, who don't care about the actual effects of competition being fair. > > There's no chance that a 5 man pre-made lands vs a full team of solo players if they bring back the rules that were in place just before they removed ranked teams, since they made it so that you'd never queue vs 5 solo players with a pre-made of 5 players since season 2. Maybe, but they faced duos. Sucks to be the 3 solos on a team with a duo, and you have to face a 5 man premade. Especially one with a smurf account to skew the balance of the match even more. W voted away teams, and I would be willing to bet if they redo the poll, even more would vote against bringing it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > >>> The idea that 5 man premade play would enhance win trading is simply not true at all. I understand that at first glance you believe: "A 5 man team ques and has 2 or 3 alts que'ing at same time, to land in a team and throw for a super easy win." I understand you believe from a simple analysis, that bringing back 5 man que would mean: "Going against win traders AND 5 man premades." but that is a conclusion based from a lot of misunderstanding. Here is more realistically what would be happening: > > >>> * 5 man premade ques and has 3 alts que'ing at the same time with them, who are ready to throw games for the 5 man team. > > >>> * 5 man team quickly realizes that they are often being placed against other 5 man teams and not teams with spaces for their alt throws to land in. > > >>> * This means the alt throw solos will be landing in rando games with no real prerogative to throw for one side or the other. Their decisions to try hard and win or throw the game, will be mostly decided upon who is with them, who is against them, and if that alt could benefit from a rating gain or a loss, during w/e phase of their win trading they are in. <- You aren't gonna change this with solo/duo or 5 man ques or even with the frequency of Anet suspensions/bans. > > >>> * 5 man win trade premade sometimes goes against 4 man teams with one open slot for an alt throw to land in. Depending on the ratings of the players in the 5 man premade win trade team vs. the ratings of the players on the 4 man legit team and vs. the ratings of the alt throw solo ques, there is volatile and much less likelihood of an alt throw solo landing in that 4 man premade because these average premade team ratings vs. average premade team ratings are not as predictable as the solo/duo only system, where win traders can reliably que their solo alts at certain ratings, to make sure they get into a match with them. Keep in mind that for all the alt throw solos out there, there are just as many or more, legit solos. > > >>> * 5 man win trade premade sometimes goes against 3 man teams who have to pick up a couple solos or a duo. Now the chances are beginning to rise that an alt throw solo may land in that team, but it is still not yet even half the chance of getting win traders with you, when you are solo que. Also, if you're going to form a 3 man team, why not just make a 5 man team? Remember that this system, the whole while, is allowing players the choice to block throwing on their teams. The win trading is still happening and it always will be. But this gives players a choice to omit themselves from the effects of the win trading. **If everyone were to play wisely and find a 5 man team, no one would be effected by win trading.** > > >>> * Rare occasions when a 5 man team goes against a team of solos. Usually when this happens, it means that 5 man team is rated LOWER and the solos are rated HIGHER. For those who do not remember, they actually did a good job of balancing that out during the last patch before 5 man was removed. This is responsible for the posts you are all seeing about how solos were competing against 5 man teams, just fine. But the effect of win trading still stands and there are high chances here, that a person or even two on the team of solos, just might be win traders. But hey, this is how it always is ANYWAY, even in solo/duo only. > > >>> * All of the above will more than likely result in win traders doing smaller ques like duos/trios and then 3 or 4 on alts, in hopes of going against other duos/trios or solos because it actually wont' be as practical to run it as 5 man when you're being put against other 5 man teams. In fact, if the win traders que as solos and duos and have to go AGAINST 5 man teams, those teams they go against will inherently have lower ratings than they do, due to how the system works. And since the win traders are all sitting in a discord anyway, it doesn't matter if it looks like their team is all solos, they are 5 man premade with voicechat anyway. All que'ing 5 man will do for them, is jack up their average party rating and make matches more difficult! But hey, **legit players could at least have the choice to benefit from the 5 man play by blocking win trade alts, where as it will in all likelihood complicate the win trade techniques.** > > >>> * And it's not going to significantly increase que times for anyone other than the people who are making the 5 man teams. > > >>> > > >>> So stop being blinded by the fear of "OMGERD 5 MANS AND WIN TRADERS @ SAME TIMEZ" and start understanding that 5 man que is the only way to prevent yourself from being effected by win trading. Stop talking about "eliminating win trading." Cleeeeeeeearly that is never going to happen. If Arenanet wanted or even could do that realistically, it would have happened a long time ago. > > >>> > > >>> In other words, bringing back 5 man que is not going to make anything anymore difficult for the solo que community than it already is, but it will enable the choice for players to actually block the win trading from effecting them. All solo que only is doing, is denying a LARGE margin of the active & veteran spvp player base the CHOICE to play with friends and the CHOICE to block themselves from the effects of win trading. This all because of an ill misinformed mob based opinion from the casual solo que demographic, who want the placebo of feeling like the competition is fair, who don't care about the actual effects of competition being fair. > > > > There's no chance that a 5 man pre-made lands vs a full team of solo players if they bring back the rules that were in place just before they removed ranked teams, since they made it so that you'd never queue vs 5 solo players with a pre-made of 5 players since season 2. > > Maybe, but they faced duos. Sucks to be the 3 solos on a team with a duo, and you have to face a 5 man premade. Especially one with a smurf account to skew the balance of the match even more. > > W voted away teams, and I would be willing to bet if they redo the poll, even more would vote against bringing it back. I'll referr you back to my previous post that has a quote from the devs that demonstrates this is false. In 5 premade vs *5 solo* the teams of *solo* players had consistent 50% and over win rates. The fact that the community voted out of ignorance doesn't change the facts. Just like the fact that Trump won the elections suddenly makes him not a complete ignorant xenophobe. Facts aren't dismissable by popular vote. Arena Net should have known better than to even consider that poll. It was among the biggest errors in their history and it condemned sPvP to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > >>> The idea that 5 man premade play would enhance win trading is simply not true at all. I understand that at first glance you believe: "A 5 man team ques and has 2 or 3 alts que'ing at same time, to land in a team and throw for a super easy win." I understand you believe from a simple analysis, that bringing back 5 man que would mean: "Going against win traders AND 5 man premades." but that is a conclusion based from a lot of misunderstanding. Here is more realistically what would be happening: > > > >>> * 5 man premade ques and has 3 alts que'ing at the same time with them, who are ready to throw games for the 5 man team. > > > >>> * 5 man team quickly realizes that they are often being placed against other 5 man teams and not teams with spaces for their alt throws to land in. > > > >>> * This means the alt throw solos will be landing in rando games with no real prerogative to throw for one side or the other. Their decisions to try hard and win or throw the game, will be mostly decided upon who is with them, who is against them, and if that alt could benefit from a rating gain or a loss, during w/e phase of their win trading they are in. <- You aren't gonna change this with solo/duo or 5 man ques or even with the frequency of Anet suspensions/bans. > > > >>> * 5 man win trade premade sometimes goes against 4 man teams with one open slot for an alt throw to land in. Depending on the ratings of the players in the 5 man premade win trade team vs. the ratings of the players on the 4 man legit team and vs. the ratings of the alt throw solo ques, there is volatile and much less likelihood of an alt throw solo landing in that 4 man premade because these average premade team ratings vs. average premade team ratings are not as predictable as the solo/duo only system, where win traders can reliably que their solo alts at certain ratings, to make sure they get into a match with them. Keep in mind that for all the alt throw solos out there, there are just as many or more, legit solos. > > > >>> * 5 man win trade premade sometimes goes against 3 man teams who have to pick up a couple solos or a duo. Now the chances are beginning to rise that an alt throw solo may land in that team, but it is still not yet even half the chance of getting win traders with you, when you are solo que. Also, if you're going to form a 3 man team, why not just make a 5 man team? Remember that this system, the whole while, is allowing players the choice to block throwing on their teams. The win trading is still happening and it always will be. But this gives players a choice to omit themselves from the effects of the win trading. **If everyone were to play wisely and find a 5 man team, no one would be effected by win trading.** > > > >>> * Rare occasions when a 5 man team goes against a team of solos. Usually when this happens, it means that 5 man team is rated LOWER and the solos are rated HIGHER. For those who do not remember, they actually did a good job of balancing that out during the last patch before 5 man was removed. This is responsible for the posts you are all seeing about how solos were competing against 5 man teams, just fine. But the effect of win trading still stands and there are high chances here, that a person or even two on the team of solos, just might be win traders. But hey, this is how it always is ANYWAY, even in solo/duo only. > > > >>> * All of the above will more than likely result in win traders doing smaller ques like duos/trios and then 3 or 4 on alts, in hopes of going against other duos/trios or solos because it actually wont' be as practical to run it as 5 man when you're being put against other 5 man teams. In fact, if the win traders que as solos and duos and have to go AGAINST 5 man teams, those teams they go against will inherently have lower ratings than they do, due to how the system works. And since the win traders are all sitting in a discord anyway, it doesn't matter if it looks like their team is all solos, they are 5 man premade with voicechat anyway. All que'ing 5 man will do for them, is jack up their average party rating and make matches more difficult! But hey, **legit players could at least have the choice to benefit from the 5 man play by blocking win trade alts, where as it will in all likelihood complicate the win trade techniques.** > > > >>> * And it's not going to significantly increase que times for anyone other than the people who are making the 5 man teams. > > > >>> > > > >>> So stop being blinded by the fear of "OMGERD 5 MANS AND WIN TRADERS @ SAME TIMEZ" and start understanding that 5 man que is the only way to prevent yourself from being effected by win trading. Stop talking about "eliminating win trading." Cleeeeeeeearly that is never going to happen. If Arenanet wanted or even could do that realistically, it would have happened a long time ago. > > > >>> > > > >>> In other words, bringing back 5 man que is not going to make anything anymore difficult for the solo que community than it already is, but it will enable the choice for players to actually block the win trading from effecting them. All solo que only is doing, is denying a LARGE margin of the active & veteran spvp player base the CHOICE to play with friends and the CHOICE to block themselves from the effects of win trading. This all because of an ill misinformed mob based opinion from the casual solo que demographic, who want the placebo of feeling like the competition is fair, who don't care about the actual effects of competition being fair. > > > > > > There's no chance that a 5 man pre-made lands vs a full team of solo players if they bring back the rules that were in place just before they removed ranked teams, since they made it so that you'd never queue vs 5 solo players with a pre-made of 5 players since season 2. > > > > Maybe, but they faced duos. Sucks to be the 3 solos on a team with a duo, and you have to face a 5 man premade. Especially one with a smurf account to skew the balance of the match even more. > > > > W voted away teams, and I would be willing to bet if they redo the poll, even more would vote against bringing it back. > > I'll referr you back to my previous post that has a quote from the devs that demonstrates this is false. In 5 premade vs *5 solo* the teams of *solo* players had consistent 50% and over win rates. > The fact that the community voted out of ignorance doesn't change the facts. Just like the fact that Trump won the elections suddenly makes him not a complete ignorant xenophobe. > Facts aren't dismissable by popular vote. > Arena Net should have known better than to even consider that poll. It was among the biggest errors in their history and it condemned sPvP to death. > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > >>> The idea that 5 man premade play would enhance win trading is simply not true at all. I understand that at first glance you believe: "A 5 man team ques and has 2 or 3 alts que'ing at same time, to land in a team and throw for a super easy win." I understand you believe from a simple analysis, that bringing back 5 man que would mean: "Going against win traders AND 5 man premades." but that is a conclusion based from a lot of misunderstanding. Here is more realistically what would be happening: > > > >>> * 5 man premade ques and has 3 alts que'ing at the same time with them, who are ready to throw games for the 5 man team. > > > >>> * 5 man team quickly realizes that they are often being placed against other 5 man teams and not teams with spaces for their alt throws to land in. > > > >>> * This means the alt throw solos will be landing in rando games with no real prerogative to throw for one side or the other. Their decisions to try hard and win or throw the game, will be mostly decided upon who is with them, who is against them, and if that alt could benefit from a rating gain or a loss, during w/e phase of their win trading they are in. <- You aren't gonna change this with solo/duo or 5 man ques or even with the frequency of Anet suspensions/bans. > > > >>> * 5 man win trade premade sometimes goes against 4 man teams with one open slot for an alt throw to land in. Depending on the ratings of the players in the 5 man premade win trade team vs. the ratings of the players on the 4 man legit team and vs. the ratings of the alt throw solo ques, there is volatile and much less likelihood of an alt throw solo landing in that 4 man premade because these average premade team ratings vs. average premade team ratings are not as predictable as the solo/duo only system, where win traders can reliably que their solo alts at certain ratings, to make sure they get into a match with them. Keep in mind that for all the alt throw solos out there, there are just as many or more, legit solos. > > > >>> * 5 man win trade premade sometimes goes against 3 man teams who have to pick up a couple solos or a duo. Now the chances are beginning to rise that an alt throw solo may land in that team, but it is still not yet even half the chance of getting win traders with you, when you are solo que. Also, if you're going to form a 3 man team, why not just make a 5 man team? Remember that this system, the whole while, is allowing players the choice to block throwing on their teams. The win trading is still happening and it always will be. But this gives players a choice to omit themselves from the effects of the win trading. **If everyone were to play wisely and find a 5 man team, no one would be effected by win trading.** > > > >>> * Rare occasions when a 5 man team goes against a team of solos. Usually when this happens, it means that 5 man team is rated LOWER and the solos are rated HIGHER. For those who do not remember, they actually did a good job of balancing that out during the last patch before 5 man was removed. This is responsible for the posts you are all seeing about how solos were competing against 5 man teams, just fine. But the effect of win trading still stands and there are high chances here, that a person or even two on the team of solos, just might be win traders. But hey, this is how it always is ANYWAY, even in solo/duo only. > > > >>> * All of the above will more than likely result in win traders doing smaller ques like duos/trios and then 3 or 4 on alts, in hopes of going against other duos/trios or solos because it actually wont' be as practical to run it as 5 man when you're being put against other 5 man teams. In fact, if the win traders que as solos and duos and have to go AGAINST 5 man teams, those teams they go against will inherently have lower ratings than they do, due to how the system works. And since the win traders are all sitting in a discord anyway, it doesn't matter if it looks like their team is all solos, they are 5 man premade with voicechat anyway. All que'ing 5 man will do for them, is jack up their average party rating and make matches more difficult! But hey, **legit players could at least have the choice to benefit from the 5 man play by blocking win trade alts, where as it will in all likelihood complicate the win trade techniques.** > > > >>> * And it's not going to significantly increase que times for anyone other than the people who are making the 5 man teams. > > > >>> > > > >>> So stop being blinded by the fear of "OMGERD 5 MANS AND WIN TRADERS @ SAME TIMEZ" and start understanding that 5 man que is the only way to prevent yourself from being effected by win trading. Stop talking about "eliminating win trading." Cleeeeeeeearly that is never going to happen. If Arenanet wanted or even could do that realistically, it would have happened a long time ago. > > > >>> > > > >>> In other words, bringing back 5 man que is not going to make anything anymore difficult for the solo que community than it already is, but it will enable the choice for players to actually block the win trading from effecting them. All solo que only is doing, is denying a LARGE margin of the active & veteran spvp player base the CHOICE to play with friends and the CHOICE to block themselves from the effects of win trading. This all because of an ill misinformed mob based opinion from the casual solo que demographic, who want the placebo of feeling like the competition is fair, who don't care about the actual effects of competition being fair. > > > > > > There's no chance that a 5 man pre-made lands vs a full team of solo players if they bring back the rules that were in place just before they removed ranked teams, since they made it so that you'd never queue vs 5 solo players with a pre-made of 5 players since season 2. > > > > Maybe, but they faced duos. Sucks to be the 3 solos on a team with a duo, and you have to face a 5 man premade. Especially one with a smurf account to skew the balance of the match even more. > > > > W voted away teams, and I would be willing to bet if they redo the poll, even more would vote against bringing it back. > > I'll referr you back to my previous post that has a quote from the devs that demonstrates this is false. In 5 premade vs *5 solo* the teams of *solo* players had consistent 50% and over win rates. > The fact that the community voted out of ignorance doesn't change the facts. Just like the fact that Trump won the elections suddenly makes him not a complete ignorant xenophobe. > Facts aren't dismissable by popular vote. > Arena Net should have known better than to even consider that poll. It was among the biggest errors in their history and it condemned sPvP to death. What dev quote? I saw a linky to Dulfy, with one line generalizing some uncited data about **SEASON ONE** having a favor for solo teams to win. Fast forward to the end of season 4 when they polled players. Get the data from season two, three , and four. Season 1 was for discovery, after that the game cheez found out how to exploit the system. i am guessing that you believe the devs are foolish to have made the decision to remove teams from the game, but this idea came from a massive amount of negative feedback concerning teams and leader boards. **Trump being a ignorant xenophobe is an opinion, but a majority voted away teams, and that is fact.** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 But you have to follow lines of evidence, not things that are just said aloud or what people "believe". I notice that solo que defendants are only tossing sword quotes from years past and arguing about other arenanet sword quotes. They are not however, forming their opinions from actually evaluating the Guild Wars 2 ranked spvp experience, day in and day out, for the said last 6 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane.9421 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 > **Trump being a ignorant xenophobe is an opinion, but a majority voted away teams, and that is fact.** Let me fix this for you. Actually players voted to do a 1 season trial of duo queue max, after which we were promised a second poll to decide whether it would be kept in place or not. Things seemed bad, of course a majority of players were in favor of trying something different, knowing that if it was worse, they could vote to return to the previous system. Anet just decided to keep duo queue max in place and broke their word on giving us a second poll. So no, technically the community **Never voted for permanent duo queue max** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > But you have to follow lines of evidence, not things that are just said aloud or what people "believe". I notice that solo que defendants are only tossing sword quotes from years past and arguing about other arenanet sword quotes. They are not however, forming their opinions from actually evaluating the Guild Wars 2 ranked spvp experience, day in and day out, for the said last 6 years. Before the end of 2015, what kind of ranked arena could I justify bringing into the discussion? Maybe the should bring a better guild team league in. Where players can register 5 members and 5 alternate/substitutes max per team, max (x) team per guild. Let guild teams battle it out for glory and leader board positions. Drop teams out of competition if they lose more that (x) number of games consecutively . Guild teams are registered within 3 days of season start or they will not be allowed (to register). A lot of arguments about teams point towards having cohesion and practicing together, so forcing them to be real guild teams vs other guild teams instead of of a 5 man premade versus a dedicated throwing team would be healthy for the game. If participation in guild league was low, like only 10 teams, make the seasons short, and grow as more teams join. But I don't think it will be healthy to bring teams back to the standard league. Do it the guild way and perhaps strengthen guild pride and rejuvenate pvp guilds once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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