The Problem with this game.

[Warlord.9074]

Right to me boons at the start of the game were something that very few classes had access to. The classes that had access to boons were just fine. Thos classes were filling a support role or the boons were giving those classes active play mechanics and to fill defiencies. Like elementalist a very low stat class with low HP give them regen and protection and its fine am i right. Once you start applying those boons to the classes that dont need them in the 1st place that creates a huge imbalance. I don't feel anymore there are any design principles that the developers have not broken at this point its become a mess.

[Norbe.7630]

i remembered a thread not so long ago....

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/16053/the-unstoppable-force-of-black-gate/p1

 

but recently anet slapped those guys ego with a truth graph

never since then they repeat their claim

[Colly.4073]

I agree with the mobility aspect, certain classes get access to movement speed/mobility without having to sacrifice anything yet other classes have to sacrifice traits and alter builds.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Colly.4073" said:

> I agree with the mobility aspect, certain classes get access to movement speed/mobility without having to sacrifice anything yet other classes have to sacrifice traits and alter builds.

 

The thing is there a few mobility types there a def mobility and an attk mobility. Def mobility is the abitly to move with out attking or doing dmg attk mobility is to be able to move when attking or using a skill during your monument. In a lot of ways scorge has realty bad def mobility but god level of attking mobility. In a game like GW2 wvw def mobility is not as helpfull in a group vs solo. If your jumping all over your not getting support and most of your dmg is going to be from these support effects. If your able to keep moving when your attking as well as having your skill go off fast enofe to land on ppl who are moving then your far better off with your mobility as a class in a wvw group.

 

I suggest that ele (staff) seen as a mobility mages has some of the worst attk mobility in the game where scorge has some of the best attking mobility in the game. Out side of that you can be supported for every thing else so scorge mobility in a group is a non-balancing point but for a class like ele it IS a balancing points because of high cast times and roots with such cast as well as slow moving attks.

 

Scorge gives up nothing and is only made stronger the more you have of them and often are stronger due to there lack of def mobility.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Warlord's posts pretty much sum everything up. Though boon powercreep is still a problem despite being the bandaid to other forms of powercreep.

 

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> They over buffed damaged probably because people thought spvp was boring with the tank metas, plus conditions were buffed overboard.

> To compensate for the high damage some classes were given the immunity, shields, evades, and blocks to help survive, but it's turned into the most annoying thing seeing people go auto immune at 50% and basically dash away.

> The elite specs may have given classes new ways to play, but it's completely destroyed the base concept of most classes. Too much was built on extremes.

> Not much point looking for any semblance of balance, because it's gone far beyond repair long ago starting with the trait revamp on june 23rd 2015.

 

Most of the powercreep has come in the name of PvE. The same with most of the balancing. Thief dagger got buffed by 40% because its DPS couldn't match that of the HoT specs on other professions, for example, which made it literally have no value in any raid setting. The PvP and WvW communities have been asking for nerfs in this regard for years.

 

Unfortunately, rather than nerfing, ANet keeps buffing and ignoring exploited mechanics.

 

Recall that trapper thief and condi mes were not reworked/nerfed because they were busted, skilless specs in WvW but because they were boring and overtuned in raids. I think that speaks volumes about how gameplay design decisions are made, as well as the future of what we'll see continuing to happen.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Most of the powercreep has come in the name of PvE. The same with most of the balancing. Thief dagger got buffed by 40% because its DPS couldn't match that of the HoT specs on other professions, for example, which made it literally have no value in any raid setting. The PvP and WvW communities have been asking for nerfs in this regard for years.

Thief autoattacks were buffed because they, along with warriors, were basically eliminated from PVP immediately after HoT (because of revenants doing their jobs better, before it was nerfed into the ground because of player whining).

 

> Recall that trapper thief and condi mes were not reworked/nerfed because they were busted, skilless specs in WvW but because they were boring and overtuned in raids. I think that speaks volumes about how gameplay design decisions are made, as well as the future of what we'll see continuing to happen.

The changes to confusion were entirely and explicitly for the sake of PVP and WvW, and actively hurt PVE for literally no reason.

[XenesisII.1540]

Thieves need serious help.

 


 

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> Thieves need serious help.

>

> 

>

Only 20 poision damage, thats weak asf thieves need major buff.

 

[Voltekka.2375]

Mesmers and thieves need a buff.

[Warlord.9074]

> @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> WvW changes are coming, PvP changes might be on their way(who knows).

> Half of people saying there is too much damage, other half saying bunkers are too durable.

>

> Lets say that we reduce outgoing damage and reduce the toughness of bunkers, we're just slowing the game down and many would just find that boring.

> If you play a glass cannon and you're used to risking your tiny healthpool to one-shot **some** players and suddenly you can't any more. Or you're a bunker able to withstand decent pressure but now you're barely managing tanking 1v1. Instead of having a wide range and variety between the two extremes, we are now closer with less variance. Instead of being able to be bright white or deep black we're now all similar shades of grey.

>

> If people feel that all classes are now better, with more of everything, then what is the issue? Everyone's been buffed, the game has evolved, if you're no longer happy to play - there are plenty of other titles. Looking at GW2 with rose-tinted glasses _"I remember the good days when every fight lasted at least 3 hours. Now the pace is too dam.n fast!"_ is perhaps not the way forward.

 

Lets, say that everyone should be able to do good damage like I said because that's what I meant. Lets me clarify it's one thing to be able to do damage, it's another thing entirely to be able to play in a way that you can make every mistake and it doesn't matter because you can just get out of jail for free. It's another thing entirely that we have some skills that is doing the damage which the damage is ok, is so easy to execute or a combo is so easy to execute that players can literally just push buttons without any thought at all. This is the problem with the game. It's not the damage although I will concede that some skills are overturned. I am not gonna make this about classes but there is a class that can auto attack and have like the best DPS in the game from auto attacking. This is the problem with the game.

 

I definitely do not want to play bunker wars at all. The bunkering alone is one thing, its another thing to be able to engage into a fight as a bunker get low and be able to reset a fight or disengage whenever you want to. You can get a bunker low and then he can just run away. Thats the problem with the game there is no risk at all for these players.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Warlord.9074" said:

> Lets, say that everyone should be able to do good damage like I said because that's what I meant. Lets me clarify it's one thing to be able to do damage, it's another thing entirely to be able to play in a way that you can make every mistake and it doesn't matter because you can just get out of jail for free. It's another thing entirely that we have some skills that is doing the damage which the damage is ok, is so easy to execute or a combo is so easy to execute that players can literally just push buttons without any thought at all. This is the problem with the game. It's not the damage although I will concede that some skills are overturned. I am not gonna make this about classes but there is a class that can auto attack and have like the best DPS in the game from auto attacking. This is the problem with the game.

> I definitely do not want to play bunker wars at all. The bunkering alone is one thing, its another thing to be able to engage into a fight as a bunker get low and be able to reset a fight or disengage whenever you want to. You can get a bunker low and then he can just run away. Thats the problem with the game there is no risk at all for these players.

 

Originally every base class had two main trait routes for being more "damage oriented" and then two main trait routes for being more "survival oriented" with a 5th line usually dedicated to class mechanics and/or utility. There were far fewer stat combos to choose from at the time and no 4 stat gear so if you wanted damage you were either zerk or rabid and if you wanted sustain it was clerics or soldiers and at that point each player had to choose two main lines to dedicate the majority of their skill points or whatever they were called so most builds at the time had clear strengths and weaknesses. With the addition of a full third grandmaster trait into every build and a trait reworking that left many traits overtuned and bloated and then the addition of insanely strong 4 stat combos i.e trailblazer, minstrel, marauder etc there are too many ways to pack too much stuff into a single build which leaves way too many overall strengths with very few overall weaknesses in comparison to how things used to be around launch and basically up until the HoT. Nowadays almost build for every class (in particular the roaming builds) have some kind of "you ccd me now this happens for free" type trait or "I landed a skill now some other strong thing happens too" type trait and then some kind of built in "auto emergency button" trait on top of pre existing immunities and utilities. Somewhere along the way they also decided to add more conditions to the game, make them ubiquitous and spammable and then make everything stack. This game is a master class in how to stack power creep on top of power creep and how to have multiple types of power creep moving alongside one another to create a giant convoluted mess that's hard to fully describe let alone unwind.

 

There is no easy way to go back from this. They'd have to drastically change the stat system, the traits, the skills, everything really.

 

I believe the first step is to realize that build diversity and class balance are naturally opposing forces from a development perspective. I've suggested before that they go to an amulet system like PvP and get rid of most stat combos currently available in WvW. Let people use their PvE gear in PvE but get it out of WvW. Get rid of Trailblazer, Minstrel, Nomad, tune down Celestial. Force people to make harder choices, no more stat mixing no more insane min maxing. Get rid of food and utility buffs. Unravel traits that have been bound together. Make people make tough choices when choosing traits. Force them to cook weaknesses into their builds. Reduce the functionality and strength of traits across the board, put the main strength of builds into the weapon skills and utilities so big plays have to be based on active button presses not auto procs. Get rid of automatic "emergency buttons." No one should be protected from death by a trait proc. Increase the CDs on skills and utilities across the board so the game becomes less about skill spamming and more about tactical use of powerful abilities.

 

IMO the goal from a development perspective should be to make the game harder and less forgiving overall to try to more reward skillful play rather than clever build and compcraft which is how I feel it is now.

[Scolix.4879]

Pve side of the game is Ok i guess but i have come to terms that i hate PvP in GW2 everything is just too fast and too bursty for my liking

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

Oh. I thought we were going to note how standing in circle mechanics are too many in this game (which prolly contributed to influencing people to bunker up in that other game mode).

 

My bad, wrong thread then. D:

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> Thieves need serious help.

>

> 

>

 

That thief is signet glass. If D/P, it shows the problem of stacking stealth; if D/D, you'd have died to any other build in the game considering 20k Final Thrusts/Killshots/Guard S/F combos/Rapid Fires/Mauls/Any holo combo/Plasma Beams all have similar tell times.

 

Unless you plan to nerf everything, damage isn't the problem. It's how that damage is accessed that is.

 

Just wait - it'll be 15k Shadow Shot + 15k Shadow Shot + 15k Shadow Shot after the patch because thief MH dagger is actually under-performing right now because of defensive powercreep on all the professions being so capable of denying its damage. And in the case of the D/P version of this build, absolutely nothing changes.

[XenesisII.1540]

Damage needs a buff across the board and nothing needs to be nerfed, considering thief has multiple one shot skills and from stealth, there are other glass specs who don't even have one one shot skill nevermind stealth, this needs to be addressed as every spec should be given the same access to damage as well as stealth if they are going to run as glass.

[MUDse.7623]

if you recieve a 20k+ backstab you are probably running a build with base armor (no extra thoughness). therefor you were a glass cannon yourself and would be able to oneshot or 'instant' multihit kill the thief aswell. so the damage is not the issue as both parties can instagib the other. one would need to balance the dificulty to apply and avoid this damage, wich is highly situational.

in a duel it is alot easier to avoid such a backstab while during roaming stealth is really strong as long as it is applied without involving the target ( not CnD / Hidden Thief/hunters shot) as it grants the element of suprise, you wouldnt have in a duel. for this stealth doesnt even have to be long 3-4 seconds is enough to get out of a tower or around a corner into your opponent, so mesmer, holo. ranger, in theory DH with trapper runes and thief (every thief build, yes even d/d) can apply enough stealth for this. ofc the longer you can stack stealth, the more locations you can choose to use this here d/p thieves take the lead as they can do this everywhere, but the others still can instagib you out of nowhere.

 

as you have a special problem with onehit thief consider, that they do not have enough sustain to keep constant preassure so the chances that you will survive if the burst is not enough is very high., if they overextend and try to keep preassure it often ends with them dead. you can see that with most stealth deadeyes, 0 tactical skill to apply damage and then no patience to try a good burst again instead spamming them selves to death. now if you give everyone thieves damage and stealth, then next thief might ask for mirage mobility and evade uptime. because thief oneshot builds often lack in those 2 points. sure thief can build for those but then they wont oneshot you anymore. and at the end we will have 9 classes all with same skills but different names - perfect balance and perfectly boring.

[geist.9173]

> @"XenoSpyro.1780" said:

> My solution : Disable all Elite specs for PVP/WvW. Disable all amulets or reduce by a metric eff ton. (300/200 instead of 1200/900). Say goodbye to all damage creeps.

 

Great, but how do you kill thieves or mesmer then?

[geist.9173]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

 

> as you have a special problem with onehit thief consider, that they do not have enough sustain to keep constant preassure so the chances that you will survive if the burst is not enough is very high., if they overextend and try to keep preassure it often ends with them dead. you can see that with most stealth deadeyes, 0 tactical skill to apply damage and then no patience to try a good burst again instead spamming them selves to death. now if you give everyone thieves damage and stealth, then next thief might ask for mirage mobility and evade uptime. because thief oneshot builds often lack in those 2 points. sure thief can build for those but then they wont oneshot you anymore. and at the end we will have 9 classes all with same skills but different names - perfect balance and perfectly boring.

 

By no sustain you mean what exactly? Easy access to stealth, highest mobility in the game, a lot of dodges and evades. Sure, they can't facetank, but you can't die ever 1v1 when you're not a complete idiot.

 

First thing a balance patch needs would be either to add higher costs of energy for thieves or put all none damage skills on higher cd (teleports, stun breaks, dodge, etc)

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"geist.9173" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

>

> > as you have a special problem with onehit thief consider, that they do not have enough sustain to keep constant preassure so the chances that you will survive if the burst is not enough is very high., if they overextend and try to keep preassure it often ends with them dead. you can see that with most stealth deadeyes, 0 tactical skill to apply damage and then no patience to try a good burst again instead spamming them selves to death. now if you give everyone thieves damage and stealth, then next thief might ask for mirage mobility and evade uptime. because thief oneshot builds often lack in those 2 points. sure thief can build for those but then they wont oneshot you anymore. and at the end we will have 9 classes all with same skills but different names - perfect balance and perfectly boring.

>

> By no sustain you mean what exactly? Easy access to stealth, highest mobility in the game, a lot of dodges and evades. Sure, they can't facetank, but you can't die ever 1v1 when you're not a complete idiot.

>

> First thing a balance patch needs would be either to add higher costs of energy for thieves or put all none damage skills on higher cd (teleports, stun breaks, dodge, etc)

>

 

sure mobility and stealth as well as evades provide sustain. but if you build for a oneshot thief build you wont have them all build in to extremes and rather focus on 1-2 of em , mostly only on stealth for oneshot builds. while using your sustain to stay alive tho you wont keep up preassure in terms of damage with such a oneshot thief build. if you do try to keep your DPS up with such a build that deals 20k backstabs to squishies , then you most likely will die because you are vulnerable while attacking. and thief will lose against most classes if it is just about trading some hits without avoiding them.

 

thief doesnt have a balance issue. the issue thief has is that it is for most people unfun to fight a thief. increasing cooldowns of survival skills only will push thieves more to oneshot and run playstyle, not sure you really want this. thief rather needs other options to stay in combat and actually trade hits with their opponents. currently most thief builds are about avoid all incoming hits by evades/stealth/blind /interrupts /mobility and in case of rilfe by outranging. you basically cannot take any hits as thief, because it is too risky and we actually got the tools to avoid all hits. we need to give up some of those but need to be able to take some hits, maybe get some blocks instead of evades, some resistance or phisical immunity access for less stealth, longer CC for less burst damage etc. then it might be more fun to fight thieves and a thief would need to choose his defensive tools wisely depending on opponent and not just avoid all incoming hits. but that is not really a balance issue IMO, rather a design choice. the thief class is desgined as it is and is unfun to play against for alot of players, but fun has nothing to do with balance.

the only thing you might argue that thief is unbalanced at is his potential to avoid fights. there will allways be a class with the highest escape potential and that will be able to avoid all fights, be it by stealth or mobility or both - currently it is thief. escaping is only important in WvW roaming and IMO it is ok that thief has the best escape potential as it is the least usefull class in large scale fights in the same mode.

[XenesisII.1540]

The usual excuse they can one shot because you can one shot them too! So you think every glass spec out there has the same ability to one shot as they do using the same stats? because they don't. Never mind the fact that they can do this without you even seeing them, and even if you could see them coming it becomes a guessing game on your part to try and dodge the invisible hit, there's only so many times can you dodge the invisible attack or drop enough lucky aoes to damage them enough to back off.

 

Even the auto attack damage was over the top. Only thing that's going to save you is auto proccing immunity to damage, but not everyone is playing a warrior or engineer. Just another example of balance going to the extremes. If they want to give a glass cannon that amount damage with stealth and mobility, then do it for the rest of the glass specs, only fair thing to do at this point since they won't bring damage in line.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> The usual excuse they can one shot because you can one shot them too! So you think every glass spec out there has the same ability to one shot as they do using the same stats? because they don't. Never mind the fact that they can do this without you even seeing them, and even if you could see them coming it becomes a guessing game on your part to try and dodge the invisible hit, there's only so many times can you dodge the invisible attack or drop enough lucky aoes to damage them enough to back off.

>

> Even the auto attack damage was over the top. Only thing that's going to save you is auto proccing immunity to damage, but not everyone is playing a warrior or engineer. Just another example of balance going to the extremes. If they want to give a glass cannon that amount damage with stealth and mobility, then do it for the rest of the glass specs, only fair thing to do at this point since they won't bring damage in line.

 

from stealth or not doesnt really matter for instant kills you allways got to predict them or avoid them with keeping up blind/block/invuln etc.

 

if you give everyone equal stealth, damage and mobility in one build then you will have the auto immun guys wrecking everyone else. then you give everyone nice autoprocs etc till you got 9 classes that are all the same with different names exactly.

ok so you dont have stealth, take my oneshot away cause too strong fine. how am i to kill you then as you will survive my first hit but will instagib me right afterwards?

 

in a duel imo a mirage should allways kill a thief if both build for oneshot for example while in roaming the thief will most likely win. it allways depends on situation and surroundings. while a nekro might be able to nearly instant kill some in a teamfight a thief is better in oneshotting in 1 vs X, because stealth will prevent AoE spamm. you cant have perfect balance for all of it while keeping diversity.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> The usual excuse they can one shot because you can one shot them too! So you think every glass spec out there has the same ability to one shot as they do using the same stats? because they don't. Never mind the fact that they can do this without you even seeing them, and even if you could see them coming it becomes a guessing game on your part to try and dodge the invisible hit, there's only so many times can you dodge the invisible attack or drop enough lucky aoes to damage them enough to back off.

>

> Even the auto attack damage was over the top. Only thing that's going to save you is auto proccing immunity to damage, but not everyone is playing a warrior or engineer. Just another example of balance going to the extremes. If they want to give a glass cannon that amount damage with stealth and mobility, then do it for the rest of the glass specs, only fair thing to do at this point since they won't bring damage in line.

 

Except these builds should and do have just as much or more damage, mobility, or defensive uptime save against D/P which has already been identified as a problem, rather than the damage itself.

 

My soulbeast runs 25k hp and can rapid fire for 30k at ~1800 range with a 5 sec auto-invuln, stealth, superspeed, 2400 range of gap-closers, four forms of hard CC, blocks, higher evasion uptime, better AoE coverage, two more stunbreaks, and four more cleanses than my thief. The same can be said about my warrior and mesmer, and other professions give similar trades give or take some mobility or damage for other gains.

 

I don't think you understand the magnitude of sacrifice a thief needs to make to his build to pull those kinds of numbers.

Your problem comes from stacking stealth from the surprise engage, not the damage. That is exclusively a D/P problem, and even then, extended stacking of stealth without initial LoS requires SA which makes these numbers close to impossible.

 

The AA is getting nerfed, and it was overbuffed only because the powercreep from HoT put thief's damage literally at the lowest in the game without the excessive AA numbers due to how initiative works. Again, if you think AA's are doing too much damage, please complain about every profession's powercreep since HoT because that's what caused the thief AA's to get buffed by literally 40% since it couldn't compete with anything else.

 

If your problem is stealth, complain about that, and you're totally justified in doing so because ranger, mes, scrapper, and thief all abuse it. But in WvW, a 20k burst is easily attained by virtually any class building for damage/burst combos, and in the case of backstab, it's generally super predictable if you learn how to play against thieves or play one for a while.

 

Other glass cannons have similar problems such as sustained blocks from guards, total power damage immunity for extende periods of time on ele, mirage's sustained damage immunities, autoproc and combined immunity effects on warrior and ranger, engi's multiple get-out-of-jail-free cards and impossibility of stopping their combos... the list goes on and on.

 

Yes, there is a problem here in the case of D/P signet burst in regards to unhealthy play, but to blame the damage and to say other professions are incapable of dealing it back or dealing with it is just untrue.

 

Need proof to my point? Play power D/D signet thief for me, please, and tell me how it goes. I guarantee virtually everyone will completely stomp you. You'll pull big numbers, but you'll rarely get them off, because the damage isn't the problem or the abuse case.

[Xruptor.3965]

> @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > @"Xillllix.3485" said:

> > I agree that the gameplay should be balanced according to risk and difficulty. The abilities themselves are ok, except Weaver which is a headache design.

> >

>

> What you don't like the piano play that Weavers/Eles have?

>

 

lol that video cracked me up. PRESS ALL THE BUTTONS!!!!!

[MUDse.7623]

you can still get enough stealth for one onehit on d/d with just utilities. the weakness of d/d comes after the backstab if your target didnt die to it or if your target was able to avoid it, because you wont have endless attempts. it is weaker than the d/p variant but if the issue is backstab out of nowhere then any d/x thief has the same issue.

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

Thing with D/D is you'll always see it coming because sustained OOC stealth is not possible. At best, it's restricted to SR out of sight/LoS and it gets lucky.

The backstab is always preadated by a CnD to which stab can just be negated with a dodge roll and then the thief is committed to melee with a bad kit with limited follow-through and no burst.