PvP/WvW Skill Split Release – Part 2

Jace al Thor.6745 · March 18, 2018

> @"Americium.7182" said:

> Final thoughts from wvw standpoint about changes:

> **Warrior** : Overall good changes

> **Revenant** : The direction of changes is good but will see if he finds a way into meta without high CoR damage.

> **Guardian** : Good changes. Signet of mercy could become meta in GvG and i don't know if it's good.

> **Thief**: I don't know much about him but everything looks fair.

> **Engi** : Some of the changes would be good for roaming balance without impacting his role in guild squads. (Holo leap dmg, might on Corona Burst). Detection Pulse change is really good.

> **Ele** : Nothing reallty impactful for WvW but with Rev dmg nerf Eless might be better for power dps now.

> **Mesmer** Illusion of Life will probably be too good for guild fights.

> **Ranger**: Roamers will (rightfully) cry but healing nerfs are objectively bad for a gamemode. People who say that support druid will always be useless for large scale fights have no idea what they are talking about. There are dozens of other ways of nerfing roaming druid without touching support.

> **Necro**: Nerfs are good but i don't think CD is the right way to do it. Especially not on support skills.

>

> For the future: If you want to nerf Roaming/Zerg/GvG build then nerf specific traits/skills that they use and not the specialization overall.

How would illusion of life be too good for gvg’s? It targets three people and they have 15 seconds to kill someone. How is that better than Necro Signet or banner?

Druch.8573 · March 18, 2018

> @"Dukotje.4382" said:

> i like the overall changes. FB do have an enormous healing potential, Revenants coalesence can 1 hit ppl and scourges deserve a larger cool down on almost everything.

So... just adding cd to scourges is your only solution? Yeah! What a fabulous idea man! You are magnificent! Lets make scourge game play boring as hell, then nobody will play it anymore and it will stop being OP.

Oh! Wait a minute! What about if... We do the same for all the other classes and then everyone stops playing and no more cryings?!?!

Please, if you don't have any idea about how necro/scourge works, do not say anything about it... Thanks!

XECOR.2814 · March 18, 2018

As a necro player i think the changes are justified. I liked almost all changes except the increased CD on Trail of Anguish, i don't understand why it needed nerf but maybe if we can get like 10-12secs swiftness and 8secs stability instead of 6secs of both from it, then the increased cd is alright in my opinion. I am excited for signet of undeath and dagger updates. Also i wish both signets and spectral skills have reduced cd implemented in pve too. Not regarding this skill split release but the skill sand swell is very slow and almost always gets interrupted. Either make it instant cast or uninterruptible(idk), i think that it is an excellent skill otherwise.

Americium.7182 · March 18, 2018

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > @"Americium.7182" said:

> > Final thoughts from wvw standpoint about changes:

> > **Warrior** : Overall good changes

> > **Revenant** : The direction of changes is good but will see if he finds a way into meta without high CoR damage.

> > **Guardian** : Good changes. Signet of mercy could become meta in GvG and i don't know if it's good.

> > **Thief**: I don't know much about him but everything looks fair.

> > **Engi** : Some of the changes would be good for roaming balance without impacting his role in guild squads. (Holo leap dmg, might on Corona Burst). Detection Pulse change is really good.

> > **Ele** : Nothing reallty impactful for WvW but with Rev dmg nerf Eless might be better for power dps now.

> > **Mesmer** Illusion of Life will probably be too good for guild fights.

> > **Ranger**: Roamers will (rightfully) cry but healing nerfs are objectively bad for a gamemode. People who say that support druid will always be useless for large scale fights have no idea what they are talking about. There are dozens of other ways of nerfing roaming druid without touching support.

> > **Necro**: Nerfs are good but i don't think CD is the right way to do it. Especially not on support skills.

> >

> > For the future: If you want to nerf Roaming/Zerg/GvG build then nerf specific traits/skills that they use and not the specialization overall.

>

> How would illusion of life be too good for gvg’s? It targets three people and they have 15 seconds to kill someone. How is that better than Necro Signet or banner?

It's kind of good because you can't waste important skill slots on you "main classes". I just watched recent gvgs from top EU guilds (LAYS,AmP, vi, Ash) and it really looks like IoL is making a big impact in those fights.

Za Shaloc.3908 · March 18, 2018

I don't ever play Scourge in PvP, but from an outsider looking in, it is upsetting to see these cooldown increases, particularly for Desert Shroud. People have suggested that Sand Savant be changed, and I agree...to me that trait is the root of all the complaints people have with it. In a node-based game mode it is not healthy to have such heavy offensive power loaded into a skill that covers more than a point. That's just not fun. I find it upsetting that this change is also effectively nerfing the CD on a skill that is not broken for power or support Scourge. Changing Sand Savant to something like this wold be a better approach, in my personal opinion:

"You can summon only one shade at a time. This greater shade has reduced recharge. You affect more targets and influence a larger area with Shade skills.

Additionally, Desert Shroud no longer causes Torment. Instead, it pulses Protection to nearby allies. Barrier you apply to allies gains 20% increased effectiveness."

Again I don't play Scourge in PvP whatsoever--I only play a support Blood Scourge in open world--so I'm sure this suggestion could be refined, but I think the solution to the problem would be to make Sand Savant a purely defensive/support trait.

OriOri.8724 · March 18, 2018

Also, this isn't targeted directly at this balance patch, but at the recent trend I've seen where you guys seem to prefer skills be more impactful over a short duration. This has manifested itself as a great many skills recently being adjusted to provide higher stacks of condi/boon but for a shorter duration. I like the idea behind this, I really do. That said, your proposed warrior changes show you taking it to the extreme, and I'm worried its going to start to be more widespread, and lead to massive powercreep eventually.

Under these changes, you are changing on my mark and crushing blow so that they both provide 15 stacks of vuln in a single hit. That's fucking absurd really, for any skill to apply that many stacks of any condition. For great justice is being changed to providing 12 stacks of might, instantly. This is absurd for any skill really. It is taking away all of the setup that used to be required to reach high might stacks and high vuln stacks on a target to maxmize your burst. There's no more thinking. Pop a single skill and you are at 12 might. Pop another skill, both instant cast mind you, and target has 15 stacks of vuln. That's not good design, to have skills granting so many stacks. Stop taking this to the extreme, its only going to get worse from here if you approve these changes to warrior.

Jace al Thor.6745 · March 18, 2018

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> Also, this isn't targeted directly at this balance patch, but at the recent trend I've seen where you guys seem to prefer skills be more impactful over a short duration. This has manifested itself as a great many skills recently being adjusted to provide higher stacks of condi/boon but for a shorter duration. I like the idea behind this, I really do. That said, your proposed warrior changes show you taking it to the extreme, and I'm worried its going to start to be more widespread, and lead to massive powercreep eventually.

>

> Under these changes, you are changing on my mark and crushing blow so that they both provide 15 stacks of vuln in a single hit. That's kitten absurd really, for any skill to apply that many stacks of any condition. For great justice is being changed to providing 12 stacks of might, instantly. This is absurd for any skill really. It is taking away all of the setup that used to be required to reach high might stacks and high vuln stacks on a target to maxmize your burst. There's no more thinking. Pop a single skill and you are at 12 might. Pop another skill, both instant cast mind you, and target has 15 stacks of vuln. That's not good design, to have skills granting so many stacks. Stop taking this to the extreme, its only going to get worse from here if you approve these changes to warrior.

Thing is the higher stack/short duration is offset by how easy it is to bring condition/boon duration so what we are going to see is high stacks with medium-long durations which is counter productive. For high stack/short duration and low stack/high duration to work Anet will need to remove/reduce the availability of expertise/concentration. Before HoT this wasn’t a big deal as we were limited to runes(or trait lines prior to rework) and certain foods(in WvW) to get our durations extended. Now it seems like everyone runs at least something to extend durations.

Hitman.5829 · March 18, 2018

Are you still going through Aura Slicer changes for Spell Breaker? Don't you read the Warrior forums? We don't want Aura slicer to go from 6 sec to 8 sec because you will ruin the skill and the synergy with the fast hands traits.

> * Aura Slicer: Increased cooldown from 6 seconds to 8 seconds in PvP and WvW.

Before you make this change think about the consequences. [Fast Hands](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fast_Hands) is the trait that allows warrior to take advantage of #2 skills with ICD of 6 sec because you can swap weapons and use the #2 skills on demand, but if you increase the ICD to 8 sec then what is the point of [Fast Hands](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fast_Hands). If your concern is that Aura Slicer deals too much damage, then nerf the damage of this skill, don't increase the internal cooldown. An increase in the ICD will only make fast hands nearly useless. Also take in mind that all other professions have #2 skills on very low cooldown and they can hit 5 targets while Aura slicer can hit only 1; also these professions are loaded with f3, f4, f5 skills, for example:

* [Maul](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Maul_(ranger_greatsword_skill)) 4 sec

* [mighty blow](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mighty_Blow) 5 sec

* [Light orb](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orb_of_Light) 3 sec

* [symbol of punishment](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Symbol_of_Punishment) 6 sec

* [ice spike](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ice_Spike) 6 sec

* [mark of blood](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Blood) 4.75 sec

* [Coalescence of Ruin](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Coalescence_of_Ruin) 4 sec

* [Punishing Sweep](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Punishing_Sweep) 5

* [Precision Strike](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precision_Strike) 4 sec

* And many more!

* Dagger Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.55, 0.55, 0.85 to 0.4, 0.4, 0.85 (-15% overall) in PvP and WvW.

The Auto attack can only tag 2 targets maximum. The other auto attacks can tag 3 targets and can deal much more damage than dagger auto attack. I really don't understand why this

auto attack is going to be nerfed by -15%. If you nerf the auto attack, at least make it tag 3 enemies.

* Break Enchantments: Reduced the power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.5 (-50%). Increased the number of boons removed from 2 to 3 in PvP and WvW.

A 50% power coefficient trade for removing an extra boon is over nerfing the skill. Perhaps a 25% power coefficient will be more reasonable OR you could leave it unchanged as it is.

TRAITS

* Defy Pain: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only.

Honestly I don't care what you do to warrior in PVP (I am a WvW only player) , however, I feel the moral obligation to remind you of the nerfed to endure pain which reduced the effect from 4 sec to 2 sec. 2 sec of endure pain for 90 sec CD is over nerfing and you might as well replace it for something else like giving 5000 toughness for 10 sec.

* Last Stand: Increased the cooldown from 40 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only

Again, I don't care if you completely butcher warrior in PvP, but let me remind you of the nerf to last stance which reduce the effect from 10 sec to 4 sec.

I just hope you never attempt a balance patch on WvW with these TRAIT changes or else you will completely kill the warrior in WvW.

OriOri.8724 · March 19, 2018

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > Also, this isn't targeted directly at this balance patch, but at the recent trend I've seen where you guys seem to prefer skills be more impactful over a short duration. This has manifested itself as a great many skills recently being adjusted to provide higher stacks of condi/boon but for a shorter duration. I like the idea behind this, I really do. That said, your proposed warrior changes show you taking it to the extreme, and I'm worried its going to start to be more widespread, and lead to massive powercreep eventually.

> >

> > Under these changes, you are changing on my mark and crushing blow so that they both provide 15 stacks of vuln in a single hit. That's kitten absurd really, for any skill to apply that many stacks of any condition. For great justice is being changed to providing 12 stacks of might, instantly. This is absurd for any skill really. It is taking away all of the setup that used to be required to reach high might stacks and high vuln stacks on a target to maxmize your burst. There's no more thinking. Pop a single skill and you are at 12 might. Pop another skill, both instant cast mind you, and target has 15 stacks of vuln. That's not good design, to have skills granting so many stacks. Stop taking this to the extreme, its only going to get worse from here if you approve these changes to warrior.

>

> Thing is the higher stack/short duration is offset by how easy it is to bring condition/boon duration so what we are going to see is high stacks with medium-long durations which is counter productive. For high stack/short duration and low stack/high duration to work Anet will need to remove/reduce the availability of expertise/concentration. Before HoT this wasn’t a big deal as we were limited to runes(or trait lines prior to rework) and certain foods(in WvW) to get our durations extended. Now it seems like everyone runs at least something to extend durations.

Yea this too. Though I am personally against how easy it is to obtain boon/condi duration even ignoring this new direction Anet has taken things.

I don't like a game that is that bursty. I would rather that, when they are considering changes like the ones I mentioned, they keep the stacks the same and simply lower the duration accordingly. If this was applied to all classes at the same time, I think it would ultimately be healthier for the game. But that's also not that realistic

Ivantreil.3092 · March 19, 2018

... Pack it up Engies, they really expect us to have it fine with a mediocre Mortar buff... What a wonderful compensation for Engi devs...

No help to condi engi at least?, And i mean a real one, not that joking cd reduction you are suggesting there.

KrHome.1920 · March 19, 2018

> @"Druch.8573" said:

> Finally, I really think that all the other traits, whether they are adept or major which also get triggered when entering shroud need a rework or a different effect when playing scourge since the shroud cd is different from core necro and reaper compared to scourge. **It's not the same to get an effect every 10s than every 30s.** It's the fair thing to do.

No!

You don't enter Reaper Shroud every 10 seconds. It's more like every 15 to 25 seconds because the 10s cooldown starts when you **leave** Shroud and not when you enter it.

**@ Necro skill changes:**

Why is Plague Signet CD increased? The skill has so many risks (e.g. in WvW you have to put it on CD often because it would kill you) that the 30s CD is fair. It's not even a reliable condi transfer. It can be blocked or evaded.

Reduced cooldowns on Dagger won't improve the weapon. The autoattack needs at least 10% more damage and the same aftercast improvements the Thief Dagger got. Skill 2 and 3 can stay as they are. They are okay. I roamed on Dagger builds for hundreds of hours. The auto needs more damage and a higher speed. Believe me! At the moment the weapon has no impact on toughness gear like knights (not enough damage) or cavalier (not enough crit chance). It only feels good full zerk, but full zerk you can't use it because you die in 2 seconds in melee range.

Aeolus.3615 · March 19, 2018

Guardian spirit weapons when ekiped on utilities could be presented floating arround guardian xD just for visuals.

Still who uses those.. lol on pvp while they are broken or dont work while player is in combat ????

SW skill are still to useless to be used, why dev's dont tweak them in 1 process/iteration, u dont even need to dodge them, and u can kite them by just stepping asside.... shield still performs the old shield skill...or stops working and keeps consuming the ammo.

(SW Shield ive only tested it on WvW and it is so full of bugs... since u guys at ANet borked up into ammo type skill)

Why keep wasting time on those if it is not do adress the utilites problems??

Consecrations still missing an elite and healing skill, and Sanctuary 1m CD when traited xD......

messiah.1908 · March 19, 2018

regarding renegade sb skill change suggestion

bloodbane - reduce activation time 0.75 sec

spiritcrush - can be cast behind you and has 0.5 sec activation time (cause the animation is too slow or vise versa. animation much faster)

Shala.8352 · March 19, 2018

problem for revenant is that it is too clunky and predictable. Revenant has too high cast times in every skills, that's why is heavily countered by thief interrupts.

Take Staff 4 for example, why so high cast time to get rid of condis, by the time you cleanse you already suffered by at least 2 ticks (unless you weren't in the middle of any of your endless animations). Revenant has already to deal with energy managment, cast time shouldnt be such a debuff...

Lordrosicky.5813 · March 19, 2018

Pointlessly small changes that won't change how spammy the game is and how little skill there is in the game. I wouldn't even bother with this update if this is all you are going to do. It won't change anything.

Lordrosicky.5813 · March 19, 2018

I will explain some of these changes and why show a lack of understanding of how pvp works. Cooldowns arent everything.

Garish Pillar: Increased the cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW - **good**

Desert Shroud: Increased the cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW **good**

Ghastly Breach: Increased the cooldown from 75 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and WvW **good**

Plague Signet: Increased the cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW **good**

Trail of Anguish: Increased the cooldown from 25 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW **good**

Signet of Undeath: Reduced the cooldown from 150 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and WvW - **The issue is the cast time not the coold down.**

Life Siphon: Reduced the cooldown from 12 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP and WvW - **The issue is the line of sight and the cast time. Not the cooldown**

Dark Pact: Reduced the cooldown from 25 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW - **The issue is the cast time. When every class can do 1000 evades in a row a cast time of 1 second is not viable in pvp**

Signet of Vampirism: Reduced the cooldown from 35 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW. Increased the base heal by 25% in PvP and WvW - **The issue is that without consume conditions you have no condi clear. Not the heal amount**

Well of Blood: Increased the base heal by 15% in PvP and WvW. Increased the heal per pulse by 75% in PvP and WvW - **The issue isnt the heal amount but the amount of condi clear. Instead of increasing the heal it should clear condis**

Spectral Grasp: Reduced the cooldown from 50 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW **The issue is not the cooldown but everything else**

Blood is Power: Adjusted the Might granted from 10 stacks for 10 seconds to 15 stacks for 6 seconds in PvP and WvW - **This is probably going to be really good with blighters boon**

Well of Suffering: Reduced the cooldown from 35 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW. Increased the amount of Vulnerability applied per pulse from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP and WvW. - **Ok I guess**

Signet of the Locust: Increased damage by 54% in PvP and WvW. Increased the base heal per hit by 29% in PvP and WvW - **Meh**

Traits

Reaper's Protection: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only - **lol, you dont need to nerf anything in the death magic line trust me**

Last Gasp: Increased the cooldown from 50 seconds to 75 seconds in PvP only - " good change

David.5974 · March 19, 2018

> @"Ivantreil.3092" said:

> ... Pack it up Engies, they really expect us to have it fine with a mediocre Mortar buff... What a wonderful compensation for Engi devs...

>

> No help to condi engi at least?, And i mean a real one, not that joking cd reduction you are suggesting there.

Are you blind? After HOT they release broken OP elite spec called "scrapper" . They balance it across alchemy and inventions - so they nerf core engi specs to mid tier. Then they release again broken spec Holosmith and core engi is dead - in every game mode. Really why should i take weaker 3rd trait... If they want build diversity, then forget on engis elite specs, buff core engi to viability and then heavy nerf elite specs. So if there will be strong holo spec, other engi builds don't have chance to rise up (sadly condi will be dead)

Zuik.7158 · March 19, 2018

Hi,

I recently returned to the game and noticed some very nice skill/trait changes, however the long standing issue of condition susceptibility for revenant is still there, so I have a few suggestions for your next balancing session:

1. Envoy of exuberance: removes 1 condition. Gives the option to trade offence (sword) for defence (shield).

2. One with nature applies 4 seconds of resistance.

3. Riposting shadows: removes 1 additional condition.

4. Crystal hibernation: replaced with a new trait - cleanse 3 conditions when swapping to herald + base incoming condition duration is reduced by 20% (not sure on that part). This gives players an option to trade offence for defence, and still allows counter play by condition focusing the revenant after the stance switch.

There is nothing overboard here, and I'm not suggesting that you implement all of them, but some of them really are becoming necessary in PvP.

Thanks.

michelada.2947 · March 19, 2018

> @"Velran.1052" said:

> What's with the Jaunt nerf? It barely does any power damage as it is. Meanwhile it's incredibly strong for condi. And exhaustion is a terrible mechanic that goes against any skillful combat. Add a internal cooldown for the stun break instead, So there's at least some counterplay. Especially since mesmer has no way to directly gain endurance outside of sigils.

>

> Also please address Perma-stealth thieves. I don't mind the damage that much, But having a deadeye follow you in stealth for 5 minutes just waiting for you to attack something so he can gank is not fun. Either reduce the way stealth stacks or add revealed to more skills.

The problem is that stealth is poorly implemented as a mechanic in the game, everything else has some kind of counter but the only good ability to detect stealth heroes belong to the scrapper besides that mesmers and thiefs do as they wish on pvp and is the same reason why druid is so frustrating to fight too, the power of stealth is underappreciated by the devs.

messiah.1908 · March 19, 2018

> @"Lordrosicky.5813" said:

> I will explain some of these changes and why show a lack of understanding of how pvp works. Cooldowns arent everything.

>

> Garish Pillar: Increased the cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW - **good**

> Desert Shroud: Increased the cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW **good**

> Ghastly Breach: Increased the cooldown from 75 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and WvW **good**

> Plague Signet: Increased the cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW **good**

> Trail of Anguish: Increased the cooldown from 25 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW **good**

> Signet of Undeath: Reduced the cooldown from 150 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and WvW - **The issue is the cast time not the coold down.**

> Life Siphon: Reduced the cooldown from 12 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP and WvW - **The issue is the line of sight and the cast time. Not the cooldown**

> Dark Pact: Reduced the cooldown from 25 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW - **The issue is the cast time. When every class can do 1000 evades in a row a cast time of 1 second is not viable in pvp**

> Signet of Vampirism: Reduced the cooldown from 35 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW. Increased the base heal by 25% in PvP and WvW - **The issue is that without consume conditions you have no condi clear. Not the heal amount**

> Well of Blood: Increased the base heal by 15% in PvP and WvW. Increased the heal per pulse by 75% in PvP and WvW - **The issue isnt the heal amount but the amount of condi clear. Instead of increasing the heal it should clear condis**

> Spectral Grasp: Reduced the cooldown from 50 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW **The issue is not the cooldown but everything else**

> Blood is Power: Adjusted the Might granted from 10 stacks for 10 seconds to 15 stacks for 6 seconds in PvP and WvW - **This is probably going to be really good with blighters boon**

> Well of Suffering: Reduced the cooldown from 35 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW. Increased the amount of Vulnerability applied per pulse from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP and WvW. - **Ok I guess**

> Signet of the Locust: Increased damage by 54% in PvP and WvW. Increased the base heal per hit by 29% in PvP and WvW - **Meh**

> Traits

> Reaper's Protection: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only - **lol, you dont need to nerf anything in the death magic line trust me**

> Last Gasp: Increased the cooldown from 50 seconds to 75 seconds in PvP only - " good change

didnt you get it anet wants the shift the meta to direct dmg one and not condi one. that is why it got cd and no cleanse abilities. also anets stated they focus on split skills and not remake them new one. so cd, cast time, or buff/nerf power only

LinhZeri.6412 · March 19, 2018

Well of Blood having an update is great, however, it also needs 3/4 cast time over the 1 second it currently has. Sand Flare has 3/4 and is quite better compared to it. This should be for all modes.

Alehin.3746 · March 19, 2018

>! ITT: pls anet, don't nerf my main

I can't wait to play some sPvP after those changes, it looks nice.

Ragion.2831 · March 20, 2018