FB Post launch feedback thread

[Brutaly.6257]

I think we had some nice threads going before launch and instead of random posting i think its better if we can have a few threads.

 

So this is an attempt to create such a thread.

Be clear about which game mode your feedback relates to.

[Garimeth.8725]

All game modes:

Mantra ranges need to be bigger:

Mantra ranges are better, but still too small to be useful even in melee they are difficult to use. I am playing an in your face condi stack melee build and I have to be RIGHT on top of people to give out my quickness, even just being on opposite sides of a mob sometimes is enough for it to miss. I love the mantras, but for giving our quickness through aegis and stability, right now its easier with shouts, which makes me sad.

[Arcaedus.7290]

Been running the following build for WvW, small-scale roaming/havoc:

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAnd8ensADlDh1BDWDBkCjlEC7aZFASA7B0DaDNb/8fGQA-j1iAQBJS/wpU/5DHQBYs/QMVCiDNMb4gAwhnUAAOBAeUpHJVGEAABYmlZZWmBH9oH9oH9otdZmMTmzcmJFgi60A-w

 

The middle utility is flexible. Before fights, I generally swap to Mantra of Lore if I need more cleanses or wall of reflection if up against heavy ranged pressure.

 

This build has quite the insane combo. Starting in ToJ: 5--> precast 4 (or 2)-->JI-->1---> (wait, catch them with 3)--> mantra heal (balthazer rune proc) --> 2-->exit tome, axe auto -->interrupt heal/roll-catch them after a dodge with axe 3.

 

Mantra of Truth is becoming one of my favorite mantras to use with this build. It can be used as either a way to finish out a burst and put on 3 cover condis, or used defensively to stop enemy bursts with the blind. It's particularly good at catching deadeyes since shadow return clears 3 condis and this will be applying 3 condis.

 

Scepter may work better than axe. I found that axe had much better dps to even out the field when ToJ is down and generally didn't have a problem staying on top of the target between JI, sword 2 and axe 3.

 

[Brutaly.6257]

WvW Support (zerging,havent tried roaming yet)

I like the concept and its seriously complex but there is one basic issue that is very obvious in wvw.

DH had a bow but utilities and bubbles in order to be a melee tank.

FB has an axe but the utilities and lack of mobility that might be suited for a ranged profession.

 

There just isnt any room for FB in wvw due to lack of survivability in mass combat situations. This lack of survivability is casued by the lack of bubbles and total lack of mobility and i am not talking about swiftness here. I am talking about blinks that allow the FB to position at the battle field which is absolutely crucial due to how mantras work. the abilty to support in close ranged situations in wvw is very limited with the skills FB has in mantras and tomes. And mobility will be crucial even if mantras get a 600-900 cone.

 

How to fix it?

1. Fix mantras so they have 600-900 cone and skip the aoe radius (120 isnt enough in any game mode).

2. Merge Mantra of Flame and Truth into one mantra and add in one new mantra with 3*600 blinks. This allows also the FB to have a chance to disengage and reset which is needed.

3. Mantra of solace should heal allies as well, if not the healing shout is better

 

Game play wise i think you need to make the Tomes instant no cd. This could be the first top trait so either you want more pages or you want them instant. There is an ammo system and cd on skills so balance the skills with cd and impact instead of access.

Skill 5 on all tomes should be granted by swapping to the tome and a trait could be placed in row one in order to get those effects. The top row of traits needs love and this could be such love. It is seriously weird that you first have to cast a skill in order to cast a skill in order to cast a skill. Sounds weird but this is the fact in F1 and F2. Not so much in F3: you either start with skill 5 in F3 or skill 3. If not ranged always skill 5. This is "made for" third party software and needs to be addressed.

 

The most competitive wvw support setup i found was infact with one mantras (RF, Shelter and shouts and rune of the trooper) and this needs to be adressed. One issue here is RF that restes the tomes. The mantra elite has to outshine RF in order to push the mantras to use.

1. Add in 1, 2 and 3 sec bubbles on the elite mantra or

2. Make the final charge of the mantra reset and recharge all mantras and add a hefty cool down.

I prefer 2 since that promotes skill

3. Or make the elite mantra the blink suggested above.

 

If 2 is implemented the FB still needs mobility and/or bubbles. 1 and 3 solves the issue imo.

 

One other issue is the complexity in order to keep quickness flowing and it becomes a battle versus internal cd instead of fighting. Personally i have no issues withthis and i got a pretty sweet flow in pvp especially but the skill cap is just to high and is wide open for use of third party software.

 

How to fix this:

Just remove the internal cd on the quickness traits in the FB line. If a player is medium skilled, invested in three dedicated traits and has the proper setup in gear (70% quickness duration is enough imo) they shouldnt be struggling with 100% uptime.

 

Last, the axe just isnt a fit with how FB works in wvw. FB in design isnt a melee char in wvw and nothing except a full revamp will change that. So in order to let the FB be played as it can be played fix staff. And no i dont mean bring back the 600 range, just revamp it as a hotfix, bring in the 5 best skills you have on the shelf and hotfix it and lets take it from there.

[Garimeth.8725]

I actually really like axe, but I haven't even stepped into wvw yet and I can see it will have issues staying on target. I also really like mantra of truth for cover condis and defensively with blind, and in pve the blind for break bars. I want to use staff, but if the range stays as it currently is I will probably use scepter/shield.

 

I like the idea of a blink mantra, because otherwise right now I feel like i will need to bring JI or MI in order to get back on tag if I'm caught out of position. I like both of those skills, but losing the blink on sword 2, the leap on sword 3, or the f2 on DH hurts, because now I have to dedicate a utility to it.

 

Granted I didn't wvw tonight, so I may feel differently when I get in there, but I noticed the lower mobility even in pve so...

[Thereon.5219]

Did some WvW tonight and did a little solo roaming and some zerging to get a feel for them. I destroyed people roaming with my ToJ and F1 spam, honestly made me feel a little Op as I had a few occasions where I took down two people by spamming through all 8 pages of my ToJ 1 skill(Occasional 2 and 4 skill).

 

 

Zerging I felt pretty useful as well in many ways, Tome of courage was great as I would prep it before an engagement by spamming 1 to build up >30 seconds of swiftness and ~20 seconds of protection as well as having on demand projectile reflect. ToJ also proved great in zerg engagements when our zergs clashed as the damage you do with it is quite immense. Tome of Resolve was alright, but didn't use it as much.

 

Axe I like, the auto attack chain is very strong but it's symbol is a bit slow and I find myself wondering whether to use it or not is worth stopping my auto attack chain. The pull ability is alright as well, still not too easy to hit moving enemies.

 

Still only day 1 though and people are still learning their new professions and who knows how things will feel after a week or so.

[phokus.8934]

In PvP, tomes on long cd's limits FB greatly because it's bound by non-generating pages. There just isn't fluidity with this elite as it tries to be everything but a master at nothing.

 

I don't really see condi being a viable option due to the high damaging attacks and condi pressure.

 

Support seems to be the way to go and just stack the healing power but you'll need to be married with a strong support cast, otherwise, you're kind of useless.

[RabbitUp.8294]

> @Brutaly.6257 said:

> 1. Fix mantras so they have 600-900 cone and skip the aoe radius (120 isnt enough in any game mode).

 

Please no. Cones don't work with a melee spec. In pve, you will have to step back and outside the range of your target, dropping your damage to 0, so you can hit your allies, and have to do that every 12 seconds. If axe has 300 range like its visuals would imply, it wouldn't be that much of a problem. Mantras need to be 240-300 AoEs around your character.

 

And since I mentioned axe, it feels extremely clunky to hit your enemies with the blue axe, but not damage them. The visuals don't match the attack range at all.

[Garimeth.8725]

> @RabbitUp.8294 said:

> > @Brutaly.6257 said:

> > 1. Fix mantras so they have 600-900 cone and skip the aoe radius (120 isnt enough in any game mode).

>

> Please no. Cones don't work with a melee spec. In pve, you will have to step back and outside the range of your target, dropping your damage to 0, so you can hit your allies, and have to do that every 12 seconds. If axe has 300 range like its visuals would imply, it wouldn't be that much of a problem. Mantras need to be 240-300 AoEs around your character.

>

> And since I mentioned axe, it feels extremely clunky to hit your enemies with the blue axe, but not damage them. The visuals don't match the attack range at all.

 

As negative as rabbit usually is, I have to agree here. A cone would only benefit Firebrand's standing behind everybody waving their scepter at the enemy, and since axe is the new weapon, the mantras should support a melee playstyle as well, they need to simply be aoe with a better range - shouts are better at getting the job done currently.

[Brutaly.6257]

Tbh, they missed the target. If this build ever going to be good in melee (wvw and pvp) they need to add both bubbles and combat mobility.

 

The only way to play it with success (had 8-2 win/loss) in rankad pvp is actually at >300 range and kite, supporting 1or 2 mates.

 

Hence 600 range. I dont play it as they intend, i got it to work but not as Anet intended.

[Vallenous.2179]

Firebrand doesn't know if it wants to condi burn, heal, tank, or quickness buff. In the end all it winds up doing most of the time is it becomes the best target. Seriously doubt anyone is going be saying any time soon "Oh no it's a firebrand" ..... unless they are on the Firebrands team.

[Atticus.7194]

FB seems like it does great burning damage but that's about it.

 

Overall I feel -

- incredibly slow (come on, no built in movement increase? really??) and have next to no mobility.

- tomes feel often very underpowered (especially resolve, this really needs all its baseline healing fixed)

- tomes are often very awkward (getting a full CD after using 1 page is terrible) and some of the LONG animations are annoying

- mantra's (aside from lore) are terrible and fairly pointless

- mantra's range make them worthless other than self buffing

- feels very awkward to have to sit and try and combo tome abilities to get any sort of substantial effect

- (Edit) The Axe symbol needs a buff on it

 

Overall FB feels great at putting up stacks of burning but that's it, everything else feels disjointed and doesn't flow at all. Feels like an alpha version of a spec that has had no iteration to smooth out the edges and make synergize all the abilities. Frankly really not impressed at all.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @Brutaly.6257 said:

> The only way to play it with success (had 8-2 win/loss) in rankad pvp is actually at >300 range and kite, supporting 1or 2 mates.

>

> Hence 600 range. I dont play it as they intend, i got it to work but not as Anet intended.

That's PvP, but in PvE any cone is utterly useless.

 

[Brutaly.6257]

> @CptAurellian.9537 said:

> > @Brutaly.6257 said:

> > The only way to play it with success (had 8-2 win/loss) in rankad pvp is actually at >300 range and kite, supporting 1or 2 mates.

> >

> > Hence 600 range. I dont play it as they intend, i got it to work but not as Anet intended.

> That's PvP, but in PvE any cone is utterly useless.

>

 

I only had one mantra in pvp. Cones work in open world pve/champions.

 

It is even worse in pvp. Hitting allies is a mess in pvp.

[Mysticjedi.6053]

I like the interactions to gain quickness. The tomes great lore wise, but I find myself never really seeing the point of activating them as they feel underpowered. I would rather keep the passive effects.

Axe feels slow and should have slightly more range.

I like the fix to mantras, requires you to be awfully close though.

[Metavahn.7293]

id love to know where these "significant increases to tome of resolves scaling" went, because they certainly are not in the game, and that tome is entirely useless for keeping you and your team alive

[RabbitUp.8294]

> @Metavahn.7293 said:

> id love to know where these "significant increases to tome of resolves scaling" went, because they certainly are not in the game, and that tome is entirely useless for keeping you and your team alive

 

They more than doubled the scalings (skill 1 from 0.42 to 0.96, skill 3 from 0.28 to 0.77, skill 4 from 0.3 to 0.79), even if they are still lower than similar skills. But the base values are left unchanged and they are pretty low.

 

The problem is that skill 4 heals for too little, it should be a pulsing heal, and skill 2 only works if you cleanse conditions, which even for pvp is situational when skill 5 converts 5 conditions and you want to use that first.

[Vallenous.2179]

> @Brutaly.6257 said:

> Tbh, they missed the target. If this build ever going to be good in melee (wvw and pvp) they need to add both bubbles and combat mobility.

>

> The only way to play it with success (had 8-2 win/loss) in rankad pvp is actually at >300 range and kite, supporting 1or 2 mates.

>

> Hence 600 range. I dont play it as they intend, i got it to work but not as Anet intended.

 

So just out of curriosity, what rank are you in pvp?

[Brutaly.6257]

These question often pop up when people trying to discredit some one, lol but here we go.

 

Gold, dropped out of platinum after 6 straight losses yesterday. This account is used for wvw, pve and testing stuff in pvp. Believe it is rank 29 but i dont play much pvp on this account

 

I am platinum on my dedicated pvp account, half way to legendary, doubt i will get there, i dont have time to play as much as i did a couple of years back. Think i am rank 69 or 70.

[juno.1840]

I've been playing my FB in parallel to my Weaver (so a story on one, then switch and do story on other). My FB just rolls through the content compared to weaver.

 

The F1 tome is simply amazing, especially with the Radiance trait line which resets F1 when something dies. I don't even have much condi-damage (roughly 500) and this thing just mows through mobs. My power is roughly 1800 (which is also mediocre), so it really sounds like ToJ may be a bit over-tuned. At the moment, I love it.

 

The F2 tome sucks, I don't even use it right now. I secretly hope it's amaze-balls if you have high healing power, but I'm not willing to make that investment right now since FB seems to benefit from condi+power -- which leaves little room to jack up healing.

 

The F3 tome is the one I use least, maybe 3 times total in all of PoF so far. I see no real need to use it in PvE. Maybe in WvW it might amount to something, but currently it's not worth losing the Aegis effect of the virtue (assuming you haven't picked the GM trait).

 

I have yet to get into WvW which is my favorite game mode in GW2. I'm a bit nervous on nearly all of the new professions since the old HoT elites do so well in WvW.

[RabbitUp.8294]

> @juno.1840 said:

> The F3 tome is the one I use least, maybe 3 times total in all of PoF so far. I see no real need to use it in PvE. Maybe in WvW it might amount to something, but currently it's not worth losing the Aegis effect of the virtue (assuming you haven't picked the GM trait).

 

I use it to spam the auto. If you have the 8 page trait, it's 48s of swiftness. Of course, we have mounts, but it's always an option we get for free.

 

It also helps to use it to open fights with a good amount of protection.

[Garimeth.8725]

Back to the OP:

 

BUG: Unrelenting Criticism applies to weapons other than axe. I am getting bleeds while using my scepter, took off the trait no more bleeds. That being said... Please change the trait to make it also apply to scepter intentionally, makes it a much better ranged condi weapon because i have a cover condi.

[RabbitUp.8294]

Honestly, the entire top line of traits is bad.

 

Unrelenting Criticism competes with and loses to Archivist of Whispers as a dps option.

I can't think of any reason to use Weighty Terms, dps, quickness and general support builds are all better served by the other 2 traits. Even a full mantra build doesn't really get much mileage out of it.

Stoic Demeanor is in the same category, a pointless trait.

 

I guess all 3 traits are trying to promote a control/cc playstyle, with dazes, roots and slows, but that exists nowhere else in the spec, it's like they imported these traits from a different class.

[Garimeth.8725]

Yeah I agree.

 

Weighty terms could have some limited use in pvp possibly. I actually do not mind Unrelenting criticism, but that's because I do not use my tomes much.

[Incarne.4927]

I :+1: the idea of aoe mantras. Cones just don't cut it, especially in stuff like fractals and dungeons. When things tend to get hectic no one is stacked to receive the support I try to dish out. I have to individually look for each person in order to heal/ buff them and it adds an unnecessary difficulty no other support class has to deal with.

 

I also think the page system should be dropped for the abilities in tomes to feel more of an impact. The Justice tome is fine, but the Courage and Resolve tomes feel very niche. In order to be a support that can compete with a druid or tempest's heals, we need to be allowed more time in the healing tome. We lack dedicated heals, and aegis spam is not going to replace heals, even when traited for blocks to heal. I also think the range on the 1 ability for all tomes need to be slightly increased.