Yamazuki.6073 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > @"Yamazuki.6073" said: > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > No one here has offered any good argument why this is an unreasonable request from the OP. > > ~~Spoiler: Vipers gear does drop~~ > > > > Neither you, nor they, offered any real argument as to how is 80g a lot of gold to skip gathering materials. Viper armor can be earned from reward tracks, story, and even dropped in PoF, as well as some Spec armor; the armor can also be rewarded from an NPC. This means, you stating it needs to drop already happens. Viper armor can not be traded, and does not actually cost more than Grieving armor does. Grieving requires you to finish achievements, gather a secondary currency, in addition to gold; this all takes up equal to more time than Vipers. This also requires you to go out of your way to do something, where as gold/materials can just be gathered along the way, from normal dailies, and selling fractal boxes/excess mats. Vipers costing 80g is only 80g if you want to skip the entire process of gathering anything or getting it as a drop, or pvping. 80g for an entire exotic set isn't a lot relative to ascended armor. > > > > You both are rejecting all ways of earning Viper armor, why should the developers make it even easier? As I said, GW2 is not a gear cycle game, Exotic/Ascended are permanently "high end" gear, why shouldn't there be a slight investment when going beyond "Rare"? Why do you need an ENTIRE set in a single day? What is wrong with a week (when casual)? > > > > For more context, Core, Hot, and PoF are designed differently. Focusing solely on gold on a game with multiple currencies and time sinks is shortsighted. You are not looking at the bigger picture. If Vipers were at a merchant, it would come with the same silly requirements, as well as requiring another currency alongside gold. It makes sense for a material/gold oriented item to cost more gold than an achievement+secondary currency+gold item. There's a reason why buying a Legendary can cost ~2.5k-3k (Twilight as an example) gold to buy when going through the achievements/process will only cost ~1.5k-6 gold (when buying pre-+all materials...). The time taken to go through achievements, gather trophies, get other currencies on top of gold fees are a cost. > > > > There's nothing more to say, as I'll end up just repeating Vipers drops already, can be earned elsewhere, balance of gold vs gold+currency+achievement, etc, so I'll just leave this as my final response to the subject. > > You're saying viper, which while inconvenient to spend about 67g on a full set of meds (the price last I checked on efficiency) is not out of the realm of reasonable. I've said trailblazer and minstrel... three times... which costs 140g. That's NOT a small investment over rares... not even by a teensy bit. That's a very LARGE investment for a small rate of return. This is the cost I have set aside as unreasonable for an exotic set of armor. 67g might be higher than I would like, largely owing to elevated leather costs (though thankfully they have been slowly falling ever since Istan farms arrived) and the fact that they added 10 hardened leather to the gossamer patch recipe on HoT's release, but that is still only a third of the total cost to craft trailblazer's or minstrel's stats both of which are desirable in wvw, and this is owed to the fact that Freshwater Pearls and Maguuma Lilies are 16x more expensive than Black Diamonds or really any other base crafting material for specific stats due to absolutely miserable drop rates. But you're blatantly ignoring that... over... and over. You see, this is why I mentioned repetition, I could copy/paste part of my response to this. You didn't answer a single question, or respond to a single thing I said. You just keep repeating that "80-140g is a HUGE investment". Yes, I got it, you think it's a massive amount of gold, never mind the fact Ascended costs much more, a single piece is nearly as much as a full Exotic set; no idea why you're comparing it to what rares cost. 140g takes ~9 days of casual play, casual, no effort, no real grinding, no going out of your way to grind the same events. 9 days of just basic dailies, easy fractals, selling your mats. Nothing I suggested even requires proper stats or build, nor does it have some hidden gold fee (as you say it does). Now, explain to me, how is just a little over a week of playing to obtain a full set of gear, that may I remind you is **permanently** relevant stat wise (No gear cycle unless ANet changes their mind), a "huge investment"? You're acting like this takes months like it does on a standard MMORPG. Getting PoF gear will take just as long, possibly longer, with the same casual play. You say PoF armor is "done right", but HoT is bad? Don't you think there's a problem when you contradict yourself? > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > No it doesn't. That's a lie. > It absolutely DOES NOT drop in PoF, and can not be awarded by NPCs. Yeah, my bad, it's just the same name (armor wise). Too many unopened boxes from both pvp and open world, mixed them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > @"Yamazuki.6073" said: > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > No one here has offered any good argument why this is an unreasonable request from the OP. > > ~~Spoiler: Vipers gear does drop~~ > > No it doesn't. That's a lie. > > > > > Neither you, nor they, offered any real argument as to how is 80g a lot of gold to skip gathering materials. Viper armor can be earned from reward tracks, story, and even dropped in PoF, as well as some Spec armor; the armor can also be rewarded from an NPC. > > It absolutely DOES NOT drop in PoF, and can not be awarded by NPCs. The only ways to earn viper without crafting are pvp, wvw, and personal story, on six characters, to gear one. With viper being the meta for many classes chances are good you need vipers for all six of those characters, not just one of them. Everything about exotic viper dropping anywhere is a blatant lie. That doesn't actually happen. You frequently mention "casual play" but often casual play doesn't involve levelling crafting disciplines to 400, or PvPing enough to unlock the reward tracks to get the armor skins in any reasonable amount of time... mind you that is one reward track per single piece which in actual casual play can take a week on its own, not per full set. Once you put that work in, sure it makes it really easy to get, but it's still a month of work for the casual player or longer. By contrast, every core exotic stat set drops in game as level 80. One of the three exotic stat sets of PoF drop in game as level 80. We're asking for the almost mandatory viper to be added as an exotic stat set drop, but even that aside it doesn't touch on the other issue outlined here. VIPER ISN'T THE ONLY HoT STAT SET, NOR IS IT THE ONLY HoT META SET. > > >This means, you stating it needs to drop already happens. Viper armor can not be traded, and does not actually cost more than Grieving armor does. Grieving requires you to finish achievements, gather a secondary currency, in addition to gold; this all takes up equal to more time than Vipers. This also requires you to go out of your way to do something, where as gold/materials can just be gathered along the way, from normal dailies, and selling fractal boxes/excess mats. Vipers costing 80g is only 80g if you want to skip the entire process of gathering anything or getting it as a drop, or pvping. 80g for an entire exotic set isn't a lot relative to ascended armor. > > > > You both are rejecting all ways of earning Viper armor, why should the developers make it even easier? As I said, GW2 is not a gear cycle game, Exotic/Ascended are permanently "high end" gear, why shouldn't there be a slight investment when going beyond "Rare"? Why do you need an ENTIRE set in a single day? What is wrong with a week (when casual)? > > > > For more context, Core, Hot, and PoF are designed differently. Focusing solely on gold on a game with multiple currencies and time sinks is shortsighted. You are not looking at the bigger picture. If Vipers were at a merchant, it would come with the same silly requirements, as well as requiring another currency alongside gold. It makes sense for a material/gold oriented item to cost more gold than an achievement+secondary currency+gold item. There's a reason why buying a Legendary can cost ~2.5k-3k (Twilight as an example) gold to buy when going through the achievements/process will only cost ~1.5k-6 gold (when buying pre-+all materials...). The time taken to go through achievements, gather trophies, get other currencies on top of gold fees are a cost. > > > > There's nothing more to say, as I'll end up just repeating Vipers drops already, can be earned elsewhere, balance of gold vs gold+currency+achievement, etc, so I'll just leave this as my final response to the subject. > > You're saying viper, which while inconvenient to spend about 67g on a full set of meds (the price last I checked on efficiency) is not out of the realm of reasonable. I can almost agree that viper might be in a reasonable place despite maybe wanting it as exotic drops as well. However, I've said trailblazer and minstrel... three times... which costs 140g. That's NOT a small investment over rares... not even by a teensy bit. That's a very LARGE investment for a small rate of return. This is the cost I have set aside as unreasonable for an exotic set of armor. 67g might be higher than I would like, largely owing to elevated leather costs (though thankfully they have been slowly falling ever since Istan farms arrived) and the fact that they added 10 hardened leather to the gossamer patch recipe on HoT's release, but that is still only a third of the total cost to craft trailblazer's or minstrel's stats both of which are desirable in wvw, and this is owed to the fact that Freshwater Pearls and Maguuma Lilies are 16x more expensive than Black Diamonds or really any other base crafting material for specific stats due to absolutely miserable drop rates. But you're blatantly ignoring that... over... and over. If you want desirable minstrel or trailblazer wvw armor, just do reward tracks. If you really care to get them, I mean, not just for argument's sake. Legacy/triumphant/crystal desert armors have selectable stats. Ways to get stuff with little or no cost, do exist. People complain there is little/no content. ANET gives content. People complain said content is hard to get. ANET makes said content easier to get. People finish the content easily, then complain they have no more content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner.4621 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > @"Yamazuki.6073" said: > > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > > No one here has offered any good argument why this is an unreasonable request from the OP. > > > ~~Spoiler: Vipers gear does drop~~ > > > > No it doesn't. That's a lie. > > > > > > > > Neither you, nor they, offered any real argument as to how is 80g a lot of gold to skip gathering materials. Viper armor can be earned from reward tracks, story, and even dropped in PoF, as well as some Spec armor; the armor can also be rewarded from an NPC. > > > > It absolutely DOES NOT drop in PoF, and can not be awarded by NPCs. The only ways to earn viper without crafting are pvp, wvw, and personal story, on six characters, to gear one. With viper being the meta for many classes chances are good you need vipers for all six of those characters, not just one of them. Everything about exotic viper dropping anywhere is a blatant lie. That doesn't actually happen. You frequently mention "casual play" but often casual play doesn't involve levelling crafting disciplines to 400, or PvPing enough to unlock the reward tracks to get the armor skins in any reasonable amount of time... mind you that is one reward track per single piece which in actual casual play can take a week on its own, not per full set. Once you put that work in, sure it makes it really easy to get, but it's still a month of work for the casual player or longer. By contrast, every core exotic stat set drops in game as level 80. One of the three exotic stat sets of PoF drop in game as level 80. We're asking for the almost mandatory viper to be added as an exotic stat set drop, but even that aside it doesn't touch on the other issue outlined here. VIPER ISN'T THE ONLY HoT STAT SET, NOR IS IT THE ONLY HoT META SET. > > > > >This means, you stating it needs to drop already happens. Viper armor can not be traded, and does not actually cost more than Grieving armor does. Grieving requires you to finish achievements, gather a secondary currency, in addition to gold; this all takes up equal to more time than Vipers. This also requires you to go out of your way to do something, where as gold/materials can just be gathered along the way, from normal dailies, and selling fractal boxes/excess mats. Vipers costing 80g is only 80g if you want to skip the entire process of gathering anything or getting it as a drop, or pvping. 80g for an entire exotic set isn't a lot relative to ascended armor. > > > > > > You both are rejecting all ways of earning Viper armor, why should the developers make it even easier? As I said, GW2 is not a gear cycle game, Exotic/Ascended are permanently "high end" gear, why shouldn't there be a slight investment when going beyond "Rare"? Why do you need an ENTIRE set in a single day? What is wrong with a week (when casual)? > > > > > > For more context, Core, Hot, and PoF are designed differently. Focusing solely on gold on a game with multiple currencies and time sinks is shortsighted. You are not looking at the bigger picture. If Vipers were at a merchant, it would come with the same silly requirements, as well as requiring another currency alongside gold. It makes sense for a material/gold oriented item to cost more gold than an achievement+secondary currency+gold item. There's a reason why buying a Legendary can cost ~2.5k-3k (Twilight as an example) gold to buy when going through the achievements/process will only cost ~1.5k-6 gold (when buying pre-+all materials...). The time taken to go through achievements, gather trophies, get other currencies on top of gold fees are a cost. > > > > > > There's nothing more to say, as I'll end up just repeating Vipers drops already, can be earned elsewhere, balance of gold vs gold+currency+achievement, etc, so I'll just leave this as my final response to the subject. > > > > You're saying viper, which while inconvenient to spend about 67g on a full set of meds (the price last I checked on efficiency) is not out of the realm of reasonable. I can almost agree that viper might be in a reasonable place despite maybe wanting it as exotic drops as well. However, I've said trailblazer and minstrel... three times... which costs 140g. That's NOT a small investment over rares... not even by a teensy bit. That's a very LARGE investment for a small rate of return. This is the cost I have set aside as unreasonable for an exotic set of armor. 67g might be higher than I would like, largely owing to elevated leather costs (though thankfully they have been slowly falling ever since Istan farms arrived) and the fact that they added 10 hardened leather to the gossamer patch recipe on HoT's release, but that is still only a third of the total cost to craft trailblazer's or minstrel's stats both of which are desirable in wvw, and this is owed to the fact that Freshwater Pearls and Maguuma Lilies are 16x more expensive than Black Diamonds or really any other base crafting material for specific stats due to absolutely miserable drop rates. But you're blatantly ignoring that... over... and over. > > If you want desirable minstrel or trailblazer wvw armor, just do reward tracks. If you really care to get them, I mean, not just for argument's sake. Legacy/triumphant/crystal desert armors have selectable stats. Ways to get stuff with little or no cost, do exist. > People complain there is little/no content. > ANET gives content. > People complain said content is hard to get. > ANET makes said content easier to get. > People finish the content easily, then complain they have no more content. > > I've never complained about lack of content, but having a poor drop rate on a crafting material leading to artificially inflated prices is not content and should not be confused with it. We asked ArenaNet to help us with the cost of crafting certain stat sets before, in particular Viper, and they did. They raised the number of sources that dropped their base ingredient and made them more obtainable, bringing the cost from what was around 3.5 to 4.5 gold a piece fluctuations on Black Diamonds. Why do people seem to object to politely saying "Hey could we get some QoL on these other two stat sets from HoT, because the cost of 140g to craft an EXOTIC tier of armor seems a bit high"? It doesn't hurt you unless you're a flipper, and barely even that. I am a flipper and would rather see this cost come down, because there shouldn't be that heavy a cost to craft any exotic set. They should all be at least roughly in the same price-range (established 60-85g) for exotics instead of being extreme outliers compared to literally every other stat set. Even Celestial, which is artificially time gated, is not cost gated like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 > @"blambidy.3216" said: > The events for chak are for the ley line sparks which are only ubtainable by opening chests in tangled depths vs gathering flax for regular viper gear. If your doing exotics you don’t have to worry about ley line sparks. However it is far more grind for sparks then gathering flax. Trust me iv done both. > That is a tricky comparison so I can only go by the numbers. The VB flax farm is on average 12 flax seeds per character per day. Exotic requires 60 vials of linseed oil so that is 1200 flax seeds required or 100 character-days. An account has at least 5 characters so that is a maximum of 20 days. 450 sparks are needed for a full set of armor. The caches give an average of 1.8 sparks so around 250 vials of acid are needed. 9 completions of the camps' event chains should have that covered. Getting enough acids would take much fewer days than the flax. > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > This is the biggest mistake people make: 60-80 gold is only easy to make when you already have the gear that you're trying to make 60-80g to craft. "Just hit fractals" except low tier fractals aren't profitable, and you need full ascended for the truly profitable dailies which puts you at way over that 60-80g number you're talking about. And 60-80 is low-balling the medium cost by 10-20g. https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~1!b~1!c~0!d~1-73740;1-72308;1-77087;1-72666;1-73960;1-71836 80g gold is for armor. If you add 10-20g then that will also cover dagger, torch and a shortbow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blambidy.3216 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Khisanth.2948" said: > > @"blambidy.3216" said: > > The events for chak are for the ley line sparks which are only ubtainable by opening chests in tangled depths vs gathering flax for regular viper gear. If your doing exotics you don’t have to worry about ley line sparks. However it is far more grind for sparks then gathering flax. Trust me iv done both. > > > > That is a tricky comparison so I can only go by the numbers. The VB flax farm is on average 12 flax seeds per character per day. Exotic requires 60 vials of linseed oil so that is 1200 flax seeds required or 100 character-days. An account has at least 5 characters so that is a maximum of 20 days. > > 450 sparks are needed for a full set of armor. The caches give an average of 1.8 sparks so around 250 vials of acid are needed. 9 completions of the camps' event chains should have that covered. > > Getting enough acids would take much fewer days than the flax. > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > This is the biggest mistake people make: 60-80 gold is only easy to make when you already have the gear that you're trying to make 60-80g to craft. "Just hit fractals" except low tier fractals aren't profitable, and you need full ascended for the truly profitable dailies which puts you at way over that 60-80g number you're talking about. And 60-80 is low-balling the medium cost by 10-20g. > > https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~1!b~1!c~0!d~1-73740;1-72308;1-77087;1-72666;1-73960;1-71836 80g gold is for armor. If you add 10-20g then that will also cover dagger, torch and a shortbow. > > True however there’s also more maps to get flax vs 1 map. And you also have the choice to purchase vs having to farm ley line sparks that you cannot buy on the tp. Also you did not include the fact that when farming for leyline sparks it’s a domino effect of farming unbound magic to purchase obsidian shards. The better fact is even though flax is longer to acquire by gathering but you can still buy them. 5 days to farm gold to purchase flax and leather vs farming full ascended gear that takes roughly a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > > @"Yamazuki.6073" said: > > > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > > > No one here has offered any good argument why this is an unreasonable request from the OP. > > > > ~~Spoiler: Vipers gear does drop~~ > > > > > > No it doesn't. That's a lie. > > > > > > > > > > > Neither you, nor they, offered any real argument as to how is 80g a lot of gold to skip gathering materials. Viper armor can be earned from reward tracks, story, and even dropped in PoF, as well as some Spec armor; the armor can also be rewarded from an NPC. > > > > > > It absolutely DOES NOT drop in PoF, and can not be awarded by NPCs. The only ways to earn viper without crafting are pvp, wvw, and personal story, on six characters, to gear one. With viper being the meta for many classes chances are good you need vipers for all six of those characters, not just one of them. Everything about exotic viper dropping anywhere is a blatant lie. That doesn't actually happen. You frequently mention "casual play" but often casual play doesn't involve levelling crafting disciplines to 400, or PvPing enough to unlock the reward tracks to get the armor skins in any reasonable amount of time... mind you that is one reward track per single piece which in actual casual play can take a week on its own, not per full set. Once you put that work in, sure it makes it really easy to get, but it's still a month of work for the casual player or longer. By contrast, every core exotic stat set drops in game as level 80. One of the three exotic stat sets of PoF drop in game as level 80. We're asking for the almost mandatory viper to be added as an exotic stat set drop, but even that aside it doesn't touch on the other issue outlined here. VIPER ISN'T THE ONLY HoT STAT SET, NOR IS IT THE ONLY HoT META SET. > > > > > > >This means, you stating it needs to drop already happens. Viper armor can not be traded, and does not actually cost more than Grieving armor does. Grieving requires you to finish achievements, gather a secondary currency, in addition to gold; this all takes up equal to more time than Vipers. This also requires you to go out of your way to do something, where as gold/materials can just be gathered along the way, from normal dailies, and selling fractal boxes/excess mats. Vipers costing 80g is only 80g if you want to skip the entire process of gathering anything or getting it as a drop, or pvping. 80g for an entire exotic set isn't a lot relative to ascended armor. > > > > > > > > You both are rejecting all ways of earning Viper armor, why should the developers make it even easier? As I said, GW2 is not a gear cycle game, Exotic/Ascended are permanently "high end" gear, why shouldn't there be a slight investment when going beyond "Rare"? Why do you need an ENTIRE set in a single day? What is wrong with a week (when casual)? > > > > > > > > For more context, Core, Hot, and PoF are designed differently. Focusing solely on gold on a game with multiple currencies and time sinks is shortsighted. You are not looking at the bigger picture. If Vipers were at a merchant, it would come with the same silly requirements, as well as requiring another currency alongside gold. It makes sense for a material/gold oriented item to cost more gold than an achievement+secondary currency+gold item. There's a reason why buying a Legendary can cost ~2.5k-3k (Twilight as an example) gold to buy when going through the achievements/process will only cost ~1.5k-6 gold (when buying pre-+all materials...). The time taken to go through achievements, gather trophies, get other currencies on top of gold fees are a cost. > > > > > > > > There's nothing more to say, as I'll end up just repeating Vipers drops already, can be earned elsewhere, balance of gold vs gold+currency+achievement, etc, so I'll just leave this as my final response to the subject. > > > > > > You're saying viper, which while inconvenient to spend about 67g on a full set of meds (the price last I checked on efficiency) is not out of the realm of reasonable. I can almost agree that viper might be in a reasonable place despite maybe wanting it as exotic drops as well. However, I've said trailblazer and minstrel... three times... which costs 140g. That's NOT a small investment over rares... not even by a teensy bit. That's a very LARGE investment for a small rate of return. This is the cost I have set aside as unreasonable for an exotic set of armor. 67g might be higher than I would like, largely owing to elevated leather costs (though thankfully they have been slowly falling ever since Istan farms arrived) and the fact that they added 10 hardened leather to the gossamer patch recipe on HoT's release, but that is still only a third of the total cost to craft trailblazer's or minstrel's stats both of which are desirable in wvw, and this is owed to the fact that Freshwater Pearls and Maguuma Lilies are 16x more expensive than Black Diamonds or really any other base crafting material for specific stats due to absolutely miserable drop rates. But you're blatantly ignoring that... over... and over. > > > > If you want desirable minstrel or trailblazer wvw armor, just do reward tracks. If you really care to get them, I mean, not just for argument's sake. Legacy/triumphant/crystal desert armors have selectable stats. Ways to get stuff with little or no cost, do exist. > > People complain there is little/no content. > > ANET gives content. > > People complain said content is hard to get. > > ANET makes said content easier to get. > > People finish the content easily, then complain they have no more content. > > > > > > I've never complained about lack of content, but having a poor drop rate on a crafting material leading to artificially inflated prices is not content and should not be confused with it. We asked ArenaNet to help us with the cost of crafting certain stat sets before, in particular Viper, and they did. They raised the number of sources that dropped their base ingredient and made them more obtainable, bringing the cost from what was around 3.5 to 4.5 gold a piece fluctuations on Black Diamonds. Why do people seem to object to politely saying "Hey could we get some QoL on these other two stat sets from HoT, because the cost of 140g to craft an EXOTIC tier of armor seems a bit high"? It doesn't hurt you unless you're a flipper, and barely even that. I am a flipper and would rather see this cost come down, because there shouldn't be that heavy a cost to craft any exotic set. They should all be at least roughly in the same price-range (established 60-85g) for exotics instead of being extreme outliers compared to literally every other stat set. Even Celestial, which is artificially time gated, is not cost gated like this. I was referring to the "trailblazer or minstrel are desirable in wvw". Any stat can be obtained in wvw easily. As for the viper exotics, one can always farm flax in HoT maps (2 permafarm spots exist, afaik) or buy the oiled components. Supply and demand make prices fluctuate, some materials can be obtained harder than some others, and that is ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zok.4956 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"EpicName.4523" said: > Seems my post was not clear enough. Indeed, I am talking mostly about exotics. About limiting certain playstyles due to lack of gear. Of course, if you have ascended gear you can reforge it! But what if you don't? You want to play something even just to see if you like it, and you can't. At least not if you don't do pvp or wvw it seems. Yes, exotics gear with viper stats takes for some players more effort/costs than other gear. But I do not see that this is limiting the playstyle in any way. You do not need gear with HoT-stats to unlock your elite specs. If you are a min-maxer that want to "unlock the true potential" you would not go with "inferior" exotics-viper but would go to ascended. And if you are not a min-maxer it would not make a difference to the playstyle if you use sinister instead of viper. > @"EpicName.4523" said: > Now tell me honestly, do you want a large influx of new unexperienced players who barely unlocked their elite specs to flood into pvp/wvw, because they can't gear up unless they craft? I do not play PvP but I have been told that PvP gear is normalized, so you can play PvP with the same stats than other players without grinding for "best/max-stats". In WvW it is always a good advice to new and unexperienced players to start with the cheaper gear (because how good a player plays his/her class is much much more important than the difference in stats between "OK" and "best" gear). And if you do play WvW you can get easily (just because you are playing) exotics with viper/trailblazer stats in short time without any effort. Yes, I agree, Viper is (for some players) harder to get than other stats. And I understand that you want, that exotics gear with HoT stats is easier to get. You do have a valid opinion. But I do not think that this difference is such a big imbalance (and that it has such a negative impact on personal playstyle) that it should be made easier to get. This is also a valid opinion. But instead of wanting it made generally easier to get in the game, several people in this discussion gave you friendly advice, how it could probably be easier to get for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edelweiss.4261 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Zok.4956" said: > > @"EpicName.4523" said: > > Seems my post was not clear enough. Indeed, I am talking mostly about exotics. About limiting certain playstyles due to lack of gear. Of course, if you have ascended gear you can reforge it! But what if you don't? You want to play something even just to see if you like it, and you can't. At least not if you don't do pvp or wvw it seems. > > Yes, exotics gear with viper stats takes for some players more effort/costs than other gear. > > But I do not see that this is limiting the playstyle in any way. You do not need gear with HoT-stats to unlock your elite specs. > If you are a min-maxer that want to "unlock the true potential" you would not go with "inferior" exotics-viper but would go to ascended. > And if you are not a min-maxer it would not make a difference to the playstyle if you use sinister instead of viper. > > > > @"EpicName.4523" said: > > Now tell me honestly, do you want a large influx of new unexperienced players who barely unlocked their elite specs to flood into pvp/wvw, because they can't gear up unless they craft? > > I do not play PvP but I have been told that PvP gear is normalized, so you can play PvP with the same stats than other players without grinding for "best/max-stats". > > In WvW it is always a good advice to new and unexperienced players to start with the cheaper gear (because how good a player plays his/her class is much much more important than the difference in stats between "OK" and "best" gear). And if you do play WvW you can get easily (just because you are playing) exotics with viper/trailblazer stats in short time without any effort. > > Yes, I agree, Viper is (for some players) harder to get than other stats. And I understand that you want, that exotics gear with HoT stats is easier to get. You do have a valid opinion. > > But I do not think that this difference is such a big imbalance (and that it has such a negative impact on personal playstyle) that it should be made easier to get. This is also a valid opinion. > I tend to agree agree that it isn't such a big imbalance, but I don't think changing it would harm the average player, and it'd make gearing alts a bit less expensive. It was refreshing to see a reasonable post after reading through the rest of the thread. > But instead of wanting it made generally easier to get in the game, several people in this discussion gave you friendly advice, how it could probably be easier to get for you. > > Did we read the same thread? Most of the posts before it devolved into a back-and-forth were along the lines of "not a problem" with a couple useful tidbits among them. The advice given, though useful, was certainly not friendly. In any case, I'm a bit shocked at how people can get riled up for or against such a triviality. Perhaps, I'm missing something obvious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"ImTasty.2163" said: > > @"Odinens.5920" said: > > > > > Crafting the insignia doesn’t require flax, which the main argument was about. So if flax and the cost of crafting is the main problem, there’s Reward tracks (that I indeed explained) which offer Viper Exotics without needing to craft anything, or as someone pointed out, Bitter Harvest awards a Viper gear box. > > > > Gotcha. Misunderstood. Didn't realize the discussion was "flax-specific." Thought OP was talking exotics in general. > > > > > > While not directly about flax it is one of the more annoying parts of getting a lot of the expansion based stats. The large amounts required for it makes no sense and as someone pointed out earlier, if the best advice to getting expansion stats is to bypass exotics and go to ascended because they are easier to obtain then there is an issue. It should not be harder to obtain exotics than it is to get the ascended version and I feel that the insane amount of flax is part of this reason. The other materials required are actually in line with other exotics, it's just flax is the oddball. TBH flax is just another mat. Before HoT it was some other mat that was then needed in ungodly amounts so you had to farm them. Cured Leather is another mat that's a pain to get hold off in qty unless your prepared to explore all options.. flax is no different. At the end of the day its down to the individual what jump in gear/stats they want to go for, but like anything don't run before you can walk and look into what's needed and plan ahead. Stockpiling flax is incredibly easy as ANET has provided various sources alongside normal map exploration.. why else would they place spots on maps where you can log gather, rinse repeat . 200 flax should take no more than a few days maybe three to acquire if your not prepared to buy it or farm it enmass. But like I said this is no different to any other mat we have needed for crafting certain stat gear in the past.. now time gating key parts of all ascended recipes (mithrillium etc) to one per account per day.. now that is something that is annoying and I would wholeheartedly support having changed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasimir.6239 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Zok.4956" said: > You do not need gear with HoT-stats to unlock your elite specs. This is the argument I'm mostly missing in this back-and-forth discussion. We are talking about GW2, not any of the "gear beats everything" games out there but a game where stats on gear have a vastly lesser influence on your performance in game than your personal skill and experience. As long as you don't have a very in-depth knowledge of every little detail of your character, the optimal rotation and how to adjust it to each encounter there's no noticable difference between playing a condi spec with viper, sinister, or even rampager stats. Depending on your experience and ability to dodge or otherwise evade/block whatever damage comes your way you might even be better off learning to play your firebrand to the best potential while using some sub-optimal stat sets that give you a bit of toughness or vitality for better survivability, too. Cheaper condition-centered stat sets are also a very viable way to check out a condi spec without spending a fortune on it. By the time you really have the skill and experience to get the best performance out of your character, having the funds to equip them properly should be the least of your worries. Other games have conditioned us to put stats first, but in this game a good player with sub-optimal exotic gear can easily outplay a less experienced/skilled player in optimal ascendeds. If you find the stats you'd like to play too expensive, just take the next best ones that are within your price range. One of the beautiful things about this game is that 2nd bests are so good that unless you really are min-maxing they are not just viable but fine. If you really are a min-maxer, you should min-max your skill and experience first, as it's got a much bigger impact on your performance than your equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner.4621 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > > > @"Yamazuki.6073" said: > > > > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > > > > No one here has offered any good argument why this is an unreasonable request from the OP. > > > > > ~~Spoiler: Vipers gear does drop~~ > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. That's a lie. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Neither you, nor they, offered any real argument as to how is 80g a lot of gold to skip gathering materials. Viper armor can be earned from reward tracks, story, and even dropped in PoF, as well as some Spec armor; the armor can also be rewarded from an NPC. > > > > > > > > It absolutely DOES NOT drop in PoF, and can not be awarded by NPCs. The only ways to earn viper without crafting are pvp, wvw, and personal story, on six characters, to gear one. With viper being the meta for many classes chances are good you need vipers for all six of those characters, not just one of them. Everything about exotic viper dropping anywhere is a blatant lie. That doesn't actually happen. You frequently mention "casual play" but often casual play doesn't involve levelling crafting disciplines to 400, or PvPing enough to unlock the reward tracks to get the armor skins in any reasonable amount of time... mind you that is one reward track per single piece which in actual casual play can take a week on its own, not per full set. Once you put that work in, sure it makes it really easy to get, but it's still a month of work for the casual player or longer. By contrast, every core exotic stat set drops in game as level 80. One of the three exotic stat sets of PoF drop in game as level 80. We're asking for the almost mandatory viper to be added as an exotic stat set drop, but even that aside it doesn't touch on the other issue outlined here. VIPER ISN'T THE ONLY HoT STAT SET, NOR IS IT THE ONLY HoT META SET. > > > > > > > > >This means, you stating it needs to drop already happens. Viper armor can not be traded, and does not actually cost more than Grieving armor does. Grieving requires you to finish achievements, gather a secondary currency, in addition to gold; this all takes up equal to more time than Vipers. This also requires you to go out of your way to do something, where as gold/materials can just be gathered along the way, from normal dailies, and selling fractal boxes/excess mats. Vipers costing 80g is only 80g if you want to skip the entire process of gathering anything or getting it as a drop, or pvping. 80g for an entire exotic set isn't a lot relative to ascended armor. > > > > > > > > > > You both are rejecting all ways of earning Viper armor, why should the developers make it even easier? As I said, GW2 is not a gear cycle game, Exotic/Ascended are permanently "high end" gear, why shouldn't there be a slight investment when going beyond "Rare"? Why do you need an ENTIRE set in a single day? What is wrong with a week (when casual)? > > > > > > > > > > For more context, Core, Hot, and PoF are designed differently. Focusing solely on gold on a game with multiple currencies and time sinks is shortsighted. You are not looking at the bigger picture. If Vipers were at a merchant, it would come with the same silly requirements, as well as requiring another currency alongside gold. It makes sense for a material/gold oriented item to cost more gold than an achievement+secondary currency+gold item. There's a reason why buying a Legendary can cost ~2.5k-3k (Twilight as an example) gold to buy when going through the achievements/process will only cost ~1.5k-6 gold (when buying pre-+all materials...). The time taken to go through achievements, gather trophies, get other currencies on top of gold fees are a cost. > > > > > > > > > > There's nothing more to say, as I'll end up just repeating Vipers drops already, can be earned elsewhere, balance of gold vs gold+currency+achievement, etc, so I'll just leave this as my final response to the subject. > > > > > > > > You're saying viper, which while inconvenient to spend about 67g on a full set of meds (the price last I checked on efficiency) is not out of the realm of reasonable. I can almost agree that viper might be in a reasonable place despite maybe wanting it as exotic drops as well. However, I've said trailblazer and minstrel... three times... which costs 140g. That's NOT a small investment over rares... not even by a teensy bit. That's a very LARGE investment for a small rate of return. This is the cost I have set aside as unreasonable for an exotic set of armor. 67g might be higher than I would like, largely owing to elevated leather costs (though thankfully they have been slowly falling ever since Istan farms arrived) and the fact that they added 10 hardened leather to the gossamer patch recipe on HoT's release, but that is still only a third of the total cost to craft trailblazer's or minstrel's stats both of which are desirable in wvw, and this is owed to the fact that Freshwater Pearls and Maguuma Lilies are 16x more expensive than Black Diamonds or really any other base crafting material for specific stats due to absolutely miserable drop rates. But you're blatantly ignoring that... over... and over. > > > > > > If you want desirable minstrel or trailblazer wvw armor, just do reward tracks. If you really care to get them, I mean, not just for argument's sake. Legacy/triumphant/crystal desert armors have selectable stats. Ways to get stuff with little or no cost, do exist. > > > People complain there is little/no content. > > > ANET gives content. > > > People complain said content is hard to get. > > > ANET makes said content easier to get. > > > People finish the content easily, then complain they have no more content. > > > > > > > > > > I've never complained about lack of content, but having a poor drop rate on a crafting material leading to artificially inflated prices is not content and should not be confused with it. We asked ArenaNet to help us with the cost of crafting certain stat sets before, in particular Viper, and they did. They raised the number of sources that dropped their base ingredient and made them more obtainable, bringing the cost from what was around 3.5 to 4.5 gold a piece fluctuations on Black Diamonds. Why do people seem to object to politely saying "Hey could we get some QoL on these other two stat sets from HoT, because the cost of 140g to craft an EXOTIC tier of armor seems a bit high"? It doesn't hurt you unless you're a flipper, and barely even that. I am a flipper and would rather see this cost come down, because there shouldn't be that heavy a cost to craft any exotic set. They should all be at least roughly in the same price-range (established 60-85g) for exotics instead of being extreme outliers compared to literally every other stat set. Even Celestial, which is artificially time gated, is not cost gated like this. > > I was referring to the "trailblazer or minstrel are desirable in wvw". Any stat can be obtained in wvw easily. As for the viper exotics, one can always farm flax in HoT maps (2 permafarm spots exist, afaik) or buy the oiled components. Supply and demand make prices fluctuate, some materials can be obtained harder than some others, and that is ok. Minstrel is also desirable by certain classes in raiding (Mostly mesmer full-tank). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zok.4956 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"EpicName.4523" said: > Bottom line is this - If you know how to make gold/ have ascended or think the process is easy - a more accessible exotic versions of certain gear will not affect you at all. You either have better versions or it is so easy that it doesn't matter for you. However, the amount of heat during this discussion makes me think the process isn't as "easy" as some people try to make it be, or they wouldn't be so upset about it. The bottom line is also: You (kind of) described your problem, that, because of a hard-to-get stat combo, you can not play the build/playstyle you want and you can not decide/unlock the "right" elite-spec for you. No one of the people here in the discussion can change the game and how easy or hard viper gear is to get. Only A-Net can change the game. That is not a "suck it up" answer. Agreeing with you "yes, it is hard" does not solve the problem(s) you have described. But several people here gave advice how your problem could be solved without changing the game itself (other ways to get the gear, how to make gold, use other stats that are cheaper to get, etc.). These were also no "suck it up" answers. Personally I think the "use other stat combo" is a good advice and the described problem could be solved with this advice. But it seems, you wanted not advice and help with your problem, but something else. Maybe the people that offered you help did misunderstood your intentions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicName.4523 Posted March 21, 2018 Author Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Zok.4956" said: > The bottom line is also: You (kind of) described your problem, that, because of a hard-to-get stat combo, you can not play the build/playstyle you want and you can not decide/unlock the "right" elite-spec for you. You got it. And since you asked: I CAN get viper exotics...but on a single character. The other alts I'm currently leveling will feel slighted. I CAN play them with power builds, but I feel limited. > > No one of the people here in the discussion can change the game and how easy or hard viper gear is to get. Only A-Net can change the game. That is not a "suck it up" answer. Agreeing with you "yes, it is hard" does not solve the problem(s) you have described. The reason most forums exists is usually discussion. If A-Net sees that people agree with certain points made here, they may do something about it. > But several people here gave advice how your problem could be solved without changing the game itself (other ways to get the gear, how to make gold, use other stats that are cheaper to get, etc.). These were also no "suck it up" answers. If I wanted help I would not post this in general discussions. In not even one of my posts I asked for help. All I did was pointing out the huge disparity when it comes to the acquisition of certain types of gear. I'm sure there is ocean of info on the internet about this particular topic - "How to get viper". Making another one just to ask the same thing instead of using Google is pointless. > Personally I think the "use other stat combo" is a good advice and the described problem could be solved with this advice. > That's cool. Good that you have an opinion. > But it seems, you wanted not advice and help with your problem, but something else. Maybe the people that offered you help did misunderstood your intentions? > Yeah, I wanted to raise awareness about certain issues which I thought could be addressed. Something wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > > > > @"Yamazuki.6073" said: > > > > > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > > > > > No one here has offered any good argument why this is an unreasonable request from the OP. > > > > > > ~~Spoiler: Vipers gear does drop~~ > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. That's a lie. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Neither you, nor they, offered any real argument as to how is 80g a lot of gold to skip gathering materials. Viper armor can be earned from reward tracks, story, and even dropped in PoF, as well as some Spec armor; the armor can also be rewarded from an NPC. > > > > > > > > > > It absolutely DOES NOT drop in PoF, and can not be awarded by NPCs. The only ways to earn viper without crafting are pvp, wvw, and personal story, on six characters, to gear one. With viper being the meta for many classes chances are good you need vipers for all six of those characters, not just one of them. Everything about exotic viper dropping anywhere is a blatant lie. That doesn't actually happen. You frequently mention "casual play" but often casual play doesn't involve levelling crafting disciplines to 400, or PvPing enough to unlock the reward tracks to get the armor skins in any reasonable amount of time... mind you that is one reward track per single piece which in actual casual play can take a week on its own, not per full set. Once you put that work in, sure it makes it really easy to get, but it's still a month of work for the casual player or longer. By contrast, every core exotic stat set drops in game as level 80. One of the three exotic stat sets of PoF drop in game as level 80. We're asking for the almost mandatory viper to be added as an exotic stat set drop, but even that aside it doesn't touch on the other issue outlined here. VIPER ISN'T THE ONLY HoT STAT SET, NOR IS IT THE ONLY HoT META SET. > > > > > > > > > > >This means, you stating it needs to drop already happens. Viper armor can not be traded, and does not actually cost more than Grieving armor does. Grieving requires you to finish achievements, gather a secondary currency, in addition to gold; this all takes up equal to more time than Vipers. This also requires you to go out of your way to do something, where as gold/materials can just be gathered along the way, from normal dailies, and selling fractal boxes/excess mats. Vipers costing 80g is only 80g if you want to skip the entire process of gathering anything or getting it as a drop, or pvping. 80g for an entire exotic set isn't a lot relative to ascended armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > You both are rejecting all ways of earning Viper armor, why should the developers make it even easier? As I said, GW2 is not a gear cycle game, Exotic/Ascended are permanently "high end" gear, why shouldn't there be a slight investment when going beyond "Rare"? Why do you need an ENTIRE set in a single day? What is wrong with a week (when casual)? > > > > > > > > > > > > For more context, Core, Hot, and PoF are designed differently. Focusing solely on gold on a game with multiple currencies and time sinks is shortsighted. You are not looking at the bigger picture. If Vipers were at a merchant, it would come with the same silly requirements, as well as requiring another currency alongside gold. It makes sense for a material/gold oriented item to cost more gold than an achievement+secondary currency+gold item. There's a reason why buying a Legendary can cost ~2.5k-3k (Twilight as an example) gold to buy when going through the achievements/process will only cost ~1.5k-6 gold (when buying pre-+all materials...). The time taken to go through achievements, gather trophies, get other currencies on top of gold fees are a cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > There's nothing more to say, as I'll end up just repeating Vipers drops already, can be earned elsewhere, balance of gold vs gold+currency+achievement, etc, so I'll just leave this as my final response to the subject. > > > > > > > > > > You're saying viper, which while inconvenient to spend about 67g on a full set of meds (the price last I checked on efficiency) is not out of the realm of reasonable. I can almost agree that viper might be in a reasonable place despite maybe wanting it as exotic drops as well. However, I've said trailblazer and minstrel... three times... which costs 140g. That's NOT a small investment over rares... not even by a teensy bit. That's a very LARGE investment for a small rate of return. This is the cost I have set aside as unreasonable for an exotic set of armor. 67g might be higher than I would like, largely owing to elevated leather costs (though thankfully they have been slowly falling ever since Istan farms arrived) and the fact that they added 10 hardened leather to the gossamer patch recipe on HoT's release, but that is still only a third of the total cost to craft trailblazer's or minstrel's stats both of which are desirable in wvw, and this is owed to the fact that Freshwater Pearls and Maguuma Lilies are 16x more expensive than Black Diamonds or really any other base crafting material for specific stats due to absolutely miserable drop rates. But you're blatantly ignoring that... over... and over. > > > > > > > > If you want desirable minstrel or trailblazer wvw armor, just do reward tracks. If you really care to get them, I mean, not just for argument's sake. Legacy/triumphant/crystal desert armors have selectable stats. Ways to get stuff with little or no cost, do exist. > > > > People complain there is little/no content. > > > > ANET gives content. > > > > People complain said content is hard to get. > > > > ANET makes said content easier to get. > > > > People finish the content easily, then complain they have no more content. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never complained about lack of content, but having a poor drop rate on a crafting material leading to artificially inflated prices is not content and should not be confused with it. We asked ArenaNet to help us with the cost of crafting certain stat sets before, in particular Viper, and they did. They raised the number of sources that dropped their base ingredient and made them more obtainable, bringing the cost from what was around 3.5 to 4.5 gold a piece fluctuations on Black Diamonds. Why do people seem to object to politely saying "Hey could we get some QoL on these other two stat sets from HoT, because the cost of 140g to craft an EXOTIC tier of armor seems a bit high"? It doesn't hurt you unless you're a flipper, and barely even that. I am a flipper and would rather see this cost come down, because there shouldn't be that heavy a cost to craft any exotic set. They should all be at least roughly in the same price-range (established 60-85g) for exotics instead of being extreme outliers compared to literally every other stat set. Even Celestial, which is artificially time gated, is not cost gated like this. > > > > I was referring to the "trailblazer or minstrel are desirable in wvw". Any stat can be obtained in wvw easily. As for the viper exotics, one can always farm flax in HoT maps (2 permafarm spots exist, afaik) or buy the oiled components. Supply and demand make prices fluctuate, some materials can be obtained harder than some others, and that is ok. > > Minstrel is also desirable by certain classes in raiding (Mostly mesmer full-tank). Raiders, however, do not fall in the "New player" category. Cost is not an issue if someone is after the hardest, most rewarding end game content. Raiders have ascended chest drops in abundance, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason.5296 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Ok after reading everything over just to see we’re you are coming from OP I agree with you. I did make a suggestion for running alts to get at least a free set ( granted for one character to use) as a way to sort of bandaid a crummy situation. And yeah I may be a bit nuts at times doing things like that in game lol, but believe me I would have much rather just craft or obtain an exotic set much faster with less hassle. Not to mention if I want to get more for a different character that won’t cost so much in comparison to other stat sets. I still think ascended is in a good place as end game goals go. But the exotic needs to come more in line. My fingers are crossed at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner.4621 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > > > > > @"Yamazuki.6073" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > > > > > > No one here has offered any good argument why this is an unreasonable request from the OP. > > > > > > > ~~Spoiler: Vipers gear does drop~~ > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. That's a lie. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Neither you, nor they, offered any real argument as to how is 80g a lot of gold to skip gathering materials. Viper armor can be earned from reward tracks, story, and even dropped in PoF, as well as some Spec armor; the armor can also be rewarded from an NPC. > > > > > > > > > > > > It absolutely DOES NOT drop in PoF, and can not be awarded by NPCs. The only ways to earn viper without crafting are pvp, wvw, and personal story, on six characters, to gear one. With viper being the meta for many classes chances are good you need vipers for all six of those characters, not just one of them. Everything about exotic viper dropping anywhere is a blatant lie. That doesn't actually happen. You frequently mention "casual play" but often casual play doesn't involve levelling crafting disciplines to 400, or PvPing enough to unlock the reward tracks to get the armor skins in any reasonable amount of time... mind you that is one reward track per single piece which in actual casual play can take a week on its own, not per full set. Once you put that work in, sure it makes it really easy to get, but it's still a month of work for the casual player or longer. By contrast, every core exotic stat set drops in game as level 80. One of the three exotic stat sets of PoF drop in game as level 80. We're asking for the almost mandatory viper to be added as an exotic stat set drop, but even that aside it doesn't touch on the other issue outlined here. VIPER ISN'T THE ONLY HoT STAT SET, NOR IS IT THE ONLY HoT META SET. > > > > > > > > > > > > >This means, you stating it needs to drop already happens. Viper armor can not be traded, and does not actually cost more than Grieving armor does. Grieving requires you to finish achievements, gather a secondary currency, in addition to gold; this all takes up equal to more time than Vipers. This also requires you to go out of your way to do something, where as gold/materials can just be gathered along the way, from normal dailies, and selling fractal boxes/excess mats. Vipers costing 80g is only 80g if you want to skip the entire process of gathering anything or getting it as a drop, or pvping. 80g for an entire exotic set isn't a lot relative to ascended armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You both are rejecting all ways of earning Viper armor, why should the developers make it even easier? As I said, GW2 is not a gear cycle game, Exotic/Ascended are permanently "high end" gear, why shouldn't there be a slight investment when going beyond "Rare"? Why do you need an ENTIRE set in a single day? What is wrong with a week (when casual)? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For more context, Core, Hot, and PoF are designed differently. Focusing solely on gold on a game with multiple currencies and time sinks is shortsighted. You are not looking at the bigger picture. If Vipers were at a merchant, it would come with the same silly requirements, as well as requiring another currency alongside gold. It makes sense for a material/gold oriented item to cost more gold than an achievement+secondary currency+gold item. There's a reason why buying a Legendary can cost ~2.5k-3k (Twilight as an example) gold to buy when going through the achievements/process will only cost ~1.5k-6 gold (when buying pre-+all materials...). The time taken to go through achievements, gather trophies, get other currencies on top of gold fees are a cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's nothing more to say, as I'll end up just repeating Vipers drops already, can be earned elsewhere, balance of gold vs gold+currency+achievement, etc, so I'll just leave this as my final response to the subject. > > > > > > > > > > > > You're saying viper, which while inconvenient to spend about 67g on a full set of meds (the price last I checked on efficiency) is not out of the realm of reasonable. I can almost agree that viper might be in a reasonable place despite maybe wanting it as exotic drops as well. However, I've said trailblazer and minstrel... three times... which costs 140g. That's NOT a small investment over rares... not even by a teensy bit. That's a very LARGE investment for a small rate of return. This is the cost I have set aside as unreasonable for an exotic set of armor. 67g might be higher than I would like, largely owing to elevated leather costs (though thankfully they have been slowly falling ever since Istan farms arrived) and the fact that they added 10 hardened leather to the gossamer patch recipe on HoT's release, but that is still only a third of the total cost to craft trailblazer's or minstrel's stats both of which are desirable in wvw, and this is owed to the fact that Freshwater Pearls and Maguuma Lilies are 16x more expensive than Black Diamonds or really any other base crafting material for specific stats due to absolutely miserable drop rates. But you're blatantly ignoring that... over... and over. > > > > > > > > > > If you want desirable minstrel or trailblazer wvw armor, just do reward tracks. If you really care to get them, I mean, not just for argument's sake. Legacy/triumphant/crystal desert armors have selectable stats. Ways to get stuff with little or no cost, do exist. > > > > > People complain there is little/no content. > > > > > ANET gives content. > > > > > People complain said content is hard to get. > > > > > ANET makes said content easier to get. > > > > > People finish the content easily, then complain they have no more content. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never complained about lack of content, but having a poor drop rate on a crafting material leading to artificially inflated prices is not content and should not be confused with it. We asked ArenaNet to help us with the cost of crafting certain stat sets before, in particular Viper, and they did. They raised the number of sources that dropped their base ingredient and made them more obtainable, bringing the cost from what was around 3.5 to 4.5 gold a piece fluctuations on Black Diamonds. Why do people seem to object to politely saying "Hey could we get some QoL on these other two stat sets from HoT, because the cost of 140g to craft an EXOTIC tier of armor seems a bit high"? It doesn't hurt you unless you're a flipper, and barely even that. I am a flipper and would rather see this cost come down, because there shouldn't be that heavy a cost to craft any exotic set. They should all be at least roughly in the same price-range (established 60-85g) for exotics instead of being extreme outliers compared to literally every other stat set. Even Celestial, which is artificially time gated, is not cost gated like this. > > > > > > I was referring to the "trailblazer or minstrel are desirable in wvw". Any stat can be obtained in wvw easily. As for the viper exotics, one can always farm flax in HoT maps (2 permafarm spots exist, afaik) or buy the oiled components. Supply and demand make prices fluctuate, some materials can be obtained harder than some others, and that is ok. > > > > Minstrel is also desirable by certain classes in raiding (Mostly mesmer full-tank). > > Raiders, however, do not fall in the "New player" category. Cost is not an issue if someone is after the hardest, most rewarding end game content. Raiders have ascended chest drops in abundance, anyway. Raiding may not fall in to that category, but Full Minstrel Chrono is SPECIFICALLY the new raider friendly stat set for chronomancer, i.e. the one most recommended for quality of life while still learning to chrono-tank for the raid. And 140g is still too expensive, no matter what the reasons. Trailblazer has been religated to WvW, but have you stopped to think that maybe part of the reason it has is EXACTLY because of how expensive it is for a PvE only player to craft it? Not everyone wants to run optimum, and may want to run safe and survivable in general PvE, but then sees the 140g price tag and goes to something less effective for what they personally wanted to do. There shouldn't be a situation where someone is locked out of a stat combination that is technically available to them just because the cost is three times that of every other stat combination. It is not unreasonable for us to request that the two out-lier stat sets get re-adjusted to be more in line with every other stat combination to craft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > > > > > > @"Yamazuki.6073" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > > > > > > > No one here has offered any good argument why this is an unreasonable request from the OP. > > > > > > > > ~~Spoiler: Vipers gear does drop~~ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. That's a lie. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Neither you, nor they, offered any real argument as to how is 80g a lot of gold to skip gathering materials. Viper armor can be earned from reward tracks, story, and even dropped in PoF, as well as some Spec armor; the armor can also be rewarded from an NPC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It absolutely DOES NOT drop in PoF, and can not be awarded by NPCs. The only ways to earn viper without crafting are pvp, wvw, and personal story, on six characters, to gear one. With viper being the meta for many classes chances are good you need vipers for all six of those characters, not just one of them. Everything about exotic viper dropping anywhere is a blatant lie. That doesn't actually happen. You frequently mention "casual play" but often casual play doesn't involve levelling crafting disciplines to 400, or PvPing enough to unlock the reward tracks to get the armor skins in any reasonable amount of time... mind you that is one reward track per single piece which in actual casual play can take a week on its own, not per full set. Once you put that work in, sure it makes it really easy to get, but it's still a month of work for the casual player or longer. By contrast, every core exotic stat set drops in game as level 80. One of the three exotic stat sets of PoF drop in game as level 80. We're asking for the almost mandatory viper to be added as an exotic stat set drop, but even that aside it doesn't touch on the other issue outlined here. VIPER ISN'T THE ONLY HoT STAT SET, NOR IS IT THE ONLY HoT META SET. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This means, you stating it needs to drop already happens. Viper armor can not be traded, and does not actually cost more than Grieving armor does. Grieving requires you to finish achievements, gather a secondary currency, in addition to gold; this all takes up equal to more time than Vipers. This also requires you to go out of your way to do something, where as gold/materials can just be gathered along the way, from normal dailies, and selling fractal boxes/excess mats. Vipers costing 80g is only 80g if you want to skip the entire process of gathering anything or getting it as a drop, or pvping. 80g for an entire exotic set isn't a lot relative to ascended armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You both are rejecting all ways of earning Viper armor, why should the developers make it even easier? As I said, GW2 is not a gear cycle game, Exotic/Ascended are permanently "high end" gear, why shouldn't there be a slight investment when going beyond "Rare"? Why do you need an ENTIRE set in a single day? What is wrong with a week (when casual)? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For more context, Core, Hot, and PoF are designed differently. Focusing solely on gold on a game with multiple currencies and time sinks is shortsighted. You are not looking at the bigger picture. If Vipers were at a merchant, it would come with the same silly requirements, as well as requiring another currency alongside gold. It makes sense for a material/gold oriented item to cost more gold than an achievement+secondary currency+gold item. There's a reason why buying a Legendary can cost ~2.5k-3k (Twilight as an example) gold to buy when going through the achievements/process will only cost ~1.5k-6 gold (when buying pre-+all materials...). The time taken to go through achievements, gather trophies, get other currencies on top of gold fees are a cost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's nothing more to say, as I'll end up just repeating Vipers drops already, can be earned elsewhere, balance of gold vs gold+currency+achievement, etc, so I'll just leave this as my final response to the subject. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're saying viper, which while inconvenient to spend about 67g on a full set of meds (the price last I checked on efficiency) is not out of the realm of reasonable. I can almost agree that viper might be in a reasonable place despite maybe wanting it as exotic drops as well. However, I've said trailblazer and minstrel... three times... which costs 140g. That's NOT a small investment over rares... not even by a teensy bit. That's a very LARGE investment for a small rate of return. This is the cost I have set aside as unreasonable for an exotic set of armor. 67g might be higher than I would like, largely owing to elevated leather costs (though thankfully they have been slowly falling ever since Istan farms arrived) and the fact that they added 10 hardened leather to the gossamer patch recipe on HoT's release, but that is still only a third of the total cost to craft trailblazer's or minstrel's stats both of which are desirable in wvw, and this is owed to the fact that Freshwater Pearls and Maguuma Lilies are 16x more expensive than Black Diamonds or really any other base crafting material for specific stats due to absolutely miserable drop rates. But you're blatantly ignoring that... over... and over. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want desirable minstrel or trailblazer wvw armor, just do reward tracks. If you really care to get them, I mean, not just for argument's sake. Legacy/triumphant/crystal desert armors have selectable stats. Ways to get stuff with little or no cost, do exist. > > > > > > People complain there is little/no content. > > > > > > ANET gives content. > > > > > > People complain said content is hard to get. > > > > > > ANET makes said content easier to get. > > > > > > People finish the content easily, then complain they have no more content. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never complained about lack of content, but having a poor drop rate on a crafting material leading to artificially inflated prices is not content and should not be confused with it. We asked ArenaNet to help us with the cost of crafting certain stat sets before, in particular Viper, and they did. They raised the number of sources that dropped their base ingredient and made them more obtainable, bringing the cost from what was around 3.5 to 4.5 gold a piece fluctuations on Black Diamonds. Why do people seem to object to politely saying "Hey could we get some QoL on these other two stat sets from HoT, because the cost of 140g to craft an EXOTIC tier of armor seems a bit high"? It doesn't hurt you unless you're a flipper, and barely even that. I am a flipper and would rather see this cost come down, because there shouldn't be that heavy a cost to craft any exotic set. They should all be at least roughly in the same price-range (established 60-85g) for exotics instead of being extreme outliers compared to literally every other stat set. Even Celestial, which is artificially time gated, is not cost gated like this. > > > > > > > > I was referring to the "trailblazer or minstrel are desirable in wvw". Any stat can be obtained in wvw easily. As for the viper exotics, one can always farm flax in HoT maps (2 permafarm spots exist, afaik) or buy the oiled components. Supply and demand make prices fluctuate, some materials can be obtained harder than some others, and that is ok. > > > > > > Minstrel is also desirable by certain classes in raiding (Mostly mesmer full-tank). > > > > Raiders, however, do not fall in the "New player" category. Cost is not an issue if someone is after the hardest, most rewarding end game content. Raiders have ascended chest drops in abundance, anyway. > > Raiding may not fall in to that category, but Full Minstrel Chrono is SPECIFICALLY the new raider friendly stat set for chronomancer, i.e. the one most recommended for quality of life while still learning to chrono-tank for the raid. And 140g is still too expensive, no matter what the reasons. Trailblazer has been religated to WvW, but have you stopped to think that maybe part of the reason it has is EXACTLY because of how expensive it is for a PvE only player to craft it? Not everyone wants to run optimum, and may want to run safe and survivable in general PvE, but then sees the 140g price tag and goes to something less effective for what they personally wanted to do. There shouldn't be a situation where someone is locked out of a stat combination that is technically available to them just because the cost is three times that of every other stat combination. It is not unreasonable for us to request that the two out-lier stat sets get re-adjusted to be more in line with every other stat combination to craft. Apart from trailblazer (which isnt run in pve) and minstrel (which is run only in raids), viper costs way less. I can empathize with a new player who may not have their crafting disciplines high enough, and cannot afford to get viper gear (best for condi, although sinister does the job pretty well), but... Raiders? I mean, honestly, of all people in this game, RAIDERS have to complain about cost? Because if this argument is about raiding with your 15th char (you should have a crapton of asc chests if you raid, as i said) or 2nd account, i simply fail to understand it. This comparison just isnt there. As for the minstrel stats, WvW has more need of minstrel stats than pve (every firebrand , one of the essential wvw classes, is full minstrel for quite some time now), support eles use minstrels, druids too. Thankfully, minstrel is obtainable via reward tracks, and that i can understand (wvw is hardly rewarding in gold or item drops). Since minstrel in pve isnt used anywhere EXCEPT raids, I find the 140g cost fine as it is. This is common sense to me. You want to gear for the BEST endgame pve content? A few more gold spent certainly wont stand in your way. I was in a raid training guild for quite some time, and i can assure you that all players shared this feeling. I am surprised people dont ask for dungeon runes to be available from the TP... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 There is cheap way to get it, from story. It cost 0 gold. Dont say there is no other options. I started playing in june 2016 and i had my first full ascended set in october. This include time i was not playing during sommer holidays. I never had to farm anything, just played the content i liked and then i relise i have gold so i craft it. In my oppinion viper exotic snouldnt be easier to obtain but berserker harder (like double price). I remember i was frequently selling berserker weapons for 6-8 golds. Berserker is easier to obtain but viper is tge same. Be glad berserker is cheaper and if you want viper, get it or find replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge shot Grif.6450 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 HoT stats aren't any harder to get than core stats, PoF on the other hand takes a bit more work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahou.3924 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > There is cheap way to get it, from story. It cost 0 gold. Dont say there is no other options. I started playing in june 2016 and i had my first full ascended set in october. This include time i was not playing during sommer holidays. I never had to farm anything, just played the content i liked and then i relise i have gold so i craft it. In my oppinion viper exotic snouldnt be easier to obtain but berserker harder (like double price). I remember i was frequently selling berserker weapons for 6-8 golds. Berserker is easier to obtain but viper is tge same. Be glad berserker is cheaper and if you want viper, get it or find replacement. Terrible idea. Next one please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 > @"Sarge shot Grif.6450" said: > HoT stats aren't any harder to get than core stats, PoF on the other hand takes a bit more work. > Depends on the stat. Both Marshal's and Harrier's are cheaper. Exotic Grieving needs to be bought with Elegy Mosaics. Armor isn't too bad. At 72 Elegy Mosaics + 12g for a set but you have to finish all the collections to unlock their purchase. Weapons are kinda horrible since if you need two sets that will triple the cost. On the other hand ascended grieving is only slightly more expensive than whatever is the cheapest ascended stat available. Edit: Forgot about trinkets - UGH -_- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 > @"Mahou.3924" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > There is cheap way to get it, from story. It cost 0 gold. Dont say there is no other options. I started playing in june 2016 and i had my first full ascended set in october. This include time i was not playing during sommer holidays. I never had to farm anything, just played the content i liked and then i relise i have gold so i craft it. In my oppinion viper exotic snouldnt be easier to obtain but berserker harder (like double price). I remember i was frequently selling berserker weapons for 6-8 golds. Berserker is easier to obtain but viper is tge same. Be glad berserker is cheaper and if you want viper, get it or find replacement. > > Terrible idea. Next one please. Well, we can start giving ascended for free. Good idea. I am sorry but i dont understand. I thought we play this game for fun. There is a theory of game. You cannot make it too hard or players will ragequit and you cannot do it too easy because then they will ve bored. Thats why raids, higher fractals, ascended and HoT meta events were added to the game. Players were leaving because they had nothing to do exept grind legendary which is boring for some/most of them. Starting player has it much easier then in other mmos. And as i said he can get exotic viper gear for free. Your logic says that runes of leadership shouldnt be locked behind dragonstand because it takes time and you want them now. Same for runes of the monk. You dont want to do **** to get them and you dont want to pay to craft them. If you will not craft ascended eventualy then you are playing parts of the game where it doesnt matter what gear you have. I boosted my warrior to lvl 80 with tomes of knowlage and entered HoT prolog without relising i still have lvl 1 gear and i completed it. If you want optimal gear you have to invest something, if you dont want to invest you cannot get optimal gear. On serious note i think since newer players dont have too many characters they could make the story armor soulbound and give it to you each time you complete the chapter on that character (maye add cost of 100/200 all 3 map curency) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zok.4956 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 > @"EpicName.4523" said: > > But it seems, you wanted not advice and help with your problem, but something else. Maybe the people that offered you help did misunderstood your intentions? > Yeah, I wanted to raise awareness about certain issues which I thought could be addressed. Something wrong with that? That's cool. Good that you have an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelada.2947 Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 > @"Mea.5491" said: > You think that's bad? All of my characters are Celestial and I can only make one Charged Quartz Crystal a day, I need 5 per armor piece and per weapon! :D Now I have full Light-Medium-Heavy Ascended sets but it took me several months to complete and I still make a Crystal every day because I don't have every weapon type yet. It's a pain in the Charr tail but I love my Celestials. dude just do some fractals and stop to punishing yourself crafting celestial stats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"ImTasty.2163" said: > Honestly I feel a lot of that could be resolved with just decreasing the amount of flax required. If you craft vipers, or any HoT stat, you need 200 flax for just one piece of armor or weapon. Which is why, with ascended gear, it often makes sense to convert gear into Viper's (or other HoT stats) using the Mystic Forge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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