Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Egorum.9506" said: > Because they pretty clearly don't. I've played about 300 games on mesmer over the last 5 years and i've been handling 2v1s like it's no problem all afternoon. The class has way too much access to blocks, evades, and invulns. It needs some time on the butcher block before the next season. > > They have a very high skill ceiling and always have. Great players can work wonders with a Mesmer. On the other hand, they always used to have a low skill floor so that bad players couldn't do much with a Mesmer. NOW, they have both a high skill ceiling and high skill floor, which is entirely broken in all aspects considering how ridiculous over powered the class is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egorum.9506 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as shit, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. It shits out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egorum.9506 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Ragion.2831" said: > Seems generally people think mesmer is out of control. Usually a nerf is inbound when this many people talk about how broken something is. At this point mesmer mains should be worried. The wrong thing to do would be to straight nerf its defensive abilities or it will end up like thief (between the June 25th patch and HoT launch) > > In case you dont know what happened, Anet went on a crusade to kill evades because many many people complained about thief evades. Vigor got nerfed for everyone and thief endurance gain on evade (old feline grace) got replaced with the nerfed vigor. Thief became useless and was the worst class in pvp until HoT launched. Vigor change eventually got reverted. > > Mesmer has been built from the ground up to work only with extreme defense. Its worse now with all the damage. There was a time that mesmer was not all that, it was ok if you were good, but you had to be really good. Thief especially hard countered it and maybe warrior. > > Mesmer used to be especially vulnerable right after it used its burst which caused a lot of cries so Anet used HoT to buff its attack frequency and defenses to oblivion. This is why we are where we are now. > > Straight nerfing mes to the point where they dont evade or go invulnerable as often may end up killing the class. Like thief, it depends on the permanent evades. So maybe they could cut its offense by like 30%. So no more insta-combo kills and no more relentless clone spam and cut the amount of dazes, conditions and stuns they can apply > > > Can you tell me what defenses scourge has that's comparable? How about healing, or damage? Mesmer will be just fine with some serious defensive nerfs man, it won't kill the class. They need a hit to both offense and defensive capabilities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Egorum.9506" said: > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! Druid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egorum.9506 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > Druid Two of the three are being heavily nerfed. 3/3 need it. Druid cant tank with a zerker ammy, the other two can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > > > Druid > > Two of the three are being heavily nerfed. 3/3 need it. Druid cant tank with a zerker ammy, the other two can. See this is why people can’t have conversations here. You asked for any class other than SB but when given another class it doesn’t count because it doesn’t fit your narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egorum.9506 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > > > > > Druid > > > > Two of the three are being heavily nerfed. 3/3 need it. Druid cant tank with a zerker ammy, the other two can. > > See this is why people can’t have conversations here. You asked for any class other than SB but when given another class it doesn’t count because it doesn’t fit your narrative. No, you made a valid point. Druid is over tuned as well. Which is why it's being nerfed, just as spellbreaker is being nerfed. Mesmer is in need of the same treatment. I'm just pointing out that mesmer can do the same things a Druid can do, only that it can do it even better- which is why it needs nerfed more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > Druid Druid will not win a 2v1 lol it can barely win a 1v1 if the enemy is retarded enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragion.2831 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > @"Ragion.2831" said: > > Seems generally people think mesmer is out of control. Usually a nerf is inbound when this many people talk about how broken something is. At this point mesmer mains should be worried. The wrong thing to do would be to straight nerf its defensive abilities or it will end up like thief (between the June 25th patch and HoT launch) > > > > In case you dont know what happened, Anet went on a crusade to kill evades because many many people complained about thief evades. Vigor got nerfed for everyone and thief endurance gain on evade (old feline grace) got replaced with the nerfed vigor. Thief became useless and was the worst class in pvp until HoT launched. Vigor change eventually got reverted. > > > > Mesmer has been built from the ground up to work only with extreme defense. Its worse now with all the damage. There was a time that mesmer was not all that, it was ok if you were good, but you had to be really good. Thief especially hard countered it and maybe warrior. > > > > Mesmer used to be especially vulnerable right after it used its burst which caused a lot of cries so Anet used HoT to buff its attack frequency and defenses to oblivion. This is why we are where we are now. > > > > Straight nerfing mes to the point where they dont evade or go invulnerable as often may end up killing the class. Like thief, it depends on the permanent evades. So maybe they could cut its offense by like 30%. So no more insta-combo kills and no more relentless clone spam and cut the amount of dazes, conditions and stuns they can apply > > > > > > > > Can you tell me what defenses scourge has that's comparable? How about healing, or damage? > > Mesmer will be just fine with some serious defensive nerfs man, it won't kill the class. They need a hit to both offense and defensive capabilities Why are you bringing up scourge? Scourge has nothing in common with mesmer Im not going to waste much time trying to convince you of something so obvious. I play pretty much exclusively revenant so I have more of a reason to say everything about mesmer should get axed. Except that ive seen what over-nerfing can do (again revenant, and i also mained thief for over a year). People complained that thief was doing too much that the evades should get nerfed. Guess what, it killed the class to the point where people held an in game protest. People complained that revenant was doing too much. Both its offense and defense got nerfed to the ground, now everyone saying rev is bad. People complained about DH, it was nerfed then DHs complained about being too squishy. I specifically warned about carelessly boosting DH's defenses because of the way traps worked, people like you argued. Guess what, Anet made the mistake of boosting everything, 2 days later forums got flooded with DH is op threads until traps got nerfed again. People are now complaining that mesmer is doing too much and now you are saying Anet should repeat the same mistake. If you dont see something wrong with that you shoudnt be talking about balance. All they need to do is to remove the invulns while being cc'd, remove some of the cc, remove the insta combo one shot, remove the relentless clone spam and ridiculous condi bombs. Everything else can stay the same. Ill just watch you argue and when Anet makes the mistake they usually do and over nerf mesmer, remember this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > > > Druid > > Druid will not win a 2v1 lol it can barely win a 1v1 if the enemy is kitten enough Not true. If you’re holding 2 people on far that puts the other team at a disadvantage. You are causing an outnumbered fight on the other two points which means your team should win 4v3. And this happens across all ranks. I can’t tell you how many times in plat I’ve had Druids tanking 1v2 and at times 1v3. In Platinum. That’s what a bunker spec is for, it wins via attrition and it does well at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > > > > > Druid > > > > Druid will not win a 2v1 lol it can barely win a 1v1 if the enemy is kitten enough > > Not true. If you’re holding 2 people on far that puts the other team at a disadvantage. You are causing an outnumbered fight on the other two points which means your team should win 4v3. And this happens across all ranks. I can’t tell you how many times in plat I’ve had Druids tanking 1v2 and at times 1v3. In Platinum. That’s what a bunker spec is for, it wins via attrition and it does well at that. You are assuming the 2v1 is indefinite, which if given equal skill and the right classes (specifically thief or mesmer to +1) it is not. It is easy to either burst them down or at least make them rotate away then someone can pick up the 1v1. And druid should NEVER be able to kill 2 people v 1. Druid has like no damage since shout might stack build got killed. So they specced for more survivability which apparently being an inferior lesser support with no damage is OP still lmao. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahyos.1437 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > Because they pretty clearly don't. I've played about 300 games on mesmer over the last 5 years and i've been handling 2v1s like it's no problem all afternoon. The class has way too much access to blocks, evades, and invulns. It needs some time on the butcher block before the next season. > > > > > > I’m not going to comment on your gameplay or your opponents but go with this instead. There are multiple Mesmer mains (ithliwen doesn’t count so ignore her) that are advocating for nerfs. However, unlike you and the vast majority of people her, we want the right things nerfed. No one is denying(again ithliwen doesn’t count) that Mesmer is strong and needs certain things nerfed. > That doesn’t mean it’s fine for you to come here, offer ZERO suggestions, and just essentially say I’ve played 300 games, I know everything, nerf everything. That’s bull kitten and you know it. So rather than having ambiguous posts come up with changes you think need to happen, post those instead so it can be debated. Otherwise your opinion is about as useless as ithliwen’s. Nice haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > > > > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > > > > > > > Druid > > > > > > Druid will not win a 2v1 lol it can barely win a 1v1 if the enemy is kitten enough > > > > Not true. If you’re holding 2 people on far that puts the other team at a disadvantage. You are causing an outnumbered fight on the other two points which means your team should win 4v3. And this happens across all ranks. I can’t tell you how many times in plat I’ve had Druids tanking 1v2 and at times 1v3. In Platinum. That’s what a bunker spec is for, it wins via attrition and it does well at that. > > You are assuming the 2v1 is indefinite, which if given equal skill and the right classes (specifically thief or mesmer to +1) it is not. It is easy to either burst them down or at least make them rotate away then someone can pick up the 1v1. And druid should NEVER be able to kill 2 people v 1. > > Druid has like no damage since shout might stack build got killed. So they specced for more survivability which apparently being an inferior lesser support with no damage is OP still lmao. It doesn’t have to be indefinite. Once you start snowballing the other team, which you should, it doesn’t matter. Again, killing doesn’t matter, it wins via attrition. Did I ever say they were OP? No I said they can win a 1v2 and explained my reasoning why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egorum.9506 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Ragion.2831" said: > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > @"Ragion.2831" said: > > > Seems generally people think mesmer is out of control. Usually a nerf is inbound when this many people talk about how broken something is. At this point mesmer mains should be worried. The wrong thing to do would be to straight nerf its defensive abilities or it will end up like thief (between the June 25th patch and HoT launch) > > > > > > In case you dont know what happened, Anet went on a crusade to kill evades because many many people complained about thief evades. Vigor got nerfed for everyone and thief endurance gain on evade (old feline grace) got replaced with the nerfed vigor. Thief became useless and was the worst class in pvp until HoT launched. Vigor change eventually got reverted. > > > > > > Mesmer has been built from the ground up to work only with extreme defense. Its worse now with all the damage. There was a time that mesmer was not all that, it was ok if you were good, but you had to be really good. Thief especially hard countered it and maybe warrior. > > > > > > Mesmer used to be especially vulnerable right after it used its burst which caused a lot of cries so Anet used HoT to buff its attack frequency and defenses to oblivion. This is why we are where we are now. > > > > > > Straight nerfing mes to the point where they dont evade or go invulnerable as often may end up killing the class. Like thief, it depends on the permanent evades. So maybe they could cut its offense by like 30%. So no more insta-combo kills and no more relentless clone spam and cut the amount of dazes, conditions and stuns they can apply > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you tell me what defenses scourge has that's comparable? How about healing, or damage? > > > > Mesmer will be just fine with some serious defensive nerfs man, it won't kill the class. They need a hit to both offense and defensive capabilities > > Why are you bringing up scourge? Scourge has nothing in common with mesmer > > Im not going to waste much time trying to convince you of something so obvious. I play pretty much exclusively revenant so I have more of a reason to say everything about mesmer should get axed. Except that ive seen what over-nerfing can do (again revenant, and i also mained thief for over a year). > > People complained that thief was doing too much that the evades should get nerfed. Guess what, it killed the class to the point where people held an in game protest. People complained that revenant was doing too much. Both its offense and defense got nerfed to the ground, now everyone saying rev is bad. > > People complained about DH, it was nerfed then DHs complained about being too squishy. I specifically warned about carelessly boosting DH's defenses because of the way traps worked, people like you argued. Guess what, Anet made the mistake of boosting everything, 2 days later forums got flooded with DH is op threads until traps got nerfed again. > > People are now complaining that mesmer is doing too much and now you are saying Anet should repeat the same mistake. If you dont see something wrong with that you shoudnt be talking about balance. > > All they need to do is to remove the invulns while being cc'd, remove some of the cc, remove the insta combo one shot, remove the relentless clone spam and ridiculous condi bombs. Everything else can stay the same. > > Ill just watch you argue and when Anet makes the mistake they usually do and over nerf mesmer, remember this post. > So, they should nerf the whole class then? You just listed 5 incredibly strong assets of the mesmer class. Literally the same things I'm saying should be nerfed. I'm not sure if you're trying to argue with or agree with me man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egorum.9506 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > > > > > > > > > Druid > > > > > > > > Druid will not win a 2v1 lol it can barely win a 1v1 if the enemy is kitten enough > > > > > > Not true. If you’re holding 2 people on far that puts the other team at a disadvantage. You are causing an outnumbered fight on the other two points which means your team should win 4v3. And this happens across all ranks. I can’t tell you how many times in plat I’ve had Druids tanking 1v2 and at times 1v3. In Platinum. That’s what a bunker spec is for, it wins via attrition and it does well at that. > > > > You are assuming the 2v1 is indefinite, which if given equal skill and the right classes (specifically thief or mesmer to +1) it is not. It is easy to either burst them down or at least make them rotate away then someone can pick up the 1v1. And druid should NEVER be able to kill 2 people v 1. > > > > Druid has like no damage since shout might stack build got killed. So they specced for more survivability which apparently being an inferior lesser support with no damage is OP still lmao. > > It doesn’t have to be indefinite. Once you start snowballing the other team, which you should, it doesn’t matter. > Again, killing doesn’t matter, it wins via attrition. > > Did I ever say they were OP? No I said they can win a 1v2 and explained my reasoning why. So how much stronger is mesmer that I can pick the class up and in a day not only hold 1v2, but win fights with it? Phantasms need a flat 20% nerf, shield needs a 1s block instead of 1.5s, mes needs less access to instant cc, mirage em exhaustion nerf is healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egorum.9506 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 Updated the OP to contain suggestions on how to nerf this nonsense without gutting the class. I don't main mesmer, but I don't want it destroyed. Which is better than I can say for everyone who spent the last 6 months gutting necro, again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Ragion.2831" said: > All they need to do is to remove the invulns while being cc'd, remove some of the cc, remove the insta combo one shot, remove the relentless clone spam and ridiculous condi bombs. Everything else can stay the same. What CC you mention even ? 'Invuls' being cc'ed(emmm,evade you mean ?EM or just evade...?) is that feature belong to Mirage otherwise what this elite spec can offer?Nothing ? Gs burst build that being seen occasionally being nerfed. They need to nerf to nerf phantasm spam* and fix ez might stack. OP delusional as hell, why waste time arguing with someone who made a video about how its easy to farm bronze/silver players and take that as proof . I dont recognize any class that WIN 1x2 unless its huge gap in 'skill'. Why you do @"Jace al Thor.6745" ? Make thread finally and mark it somehow so anet could see it ? This changes that they do , wont be enough and then would take hammer and make a Renegade.ver.2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > > > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid > > > > > > > > > > Druid will not win a 2v1 lol it can barely win a 1v1 if the enemy is kitten enough > > > > > > > > Not true. If you’re holding 2 people on far that puts the other team at a disadvantage. You are causing an outnumbered fight on the other two points which means your team should win 4v3. And this happens across all ranks. I can’t tell you how many times in plat I’ve had Druids tanking 1v2 and at times 1v3. In Platinum. That’s what a bunker spec is for, it wins via attrition and it does well at that. > > > > > > You are assuming the 2v1 is indefinite, which if given equal skill and the right classes (specifically thief or mesmer to +1) it is not. It is easy to either burst them down or at least make them rotate away then someone can pick up the 1v1. And druid should NEVER be able to kill 2 people v 1. > > > > > > Druid has like no damage since shout might stack build got killed. So they specced for more survivability which apparently being an inferior lesser support with no damage is OP still lmao. > > > > It doesn’t have to be indefinite. Once you start snowballing the other team, which you should, it doesn’t matter. > > Again, killing doesn’t matter, it wins via attrition. > > > > Did I ever say they were OP? No I said they can win a 1v2 and explained my reasoning why. > > So how much stronger is mesmer that I can pick the class up and in a day not only hold 1v2, but win fights with it? > > Phantasms need a flat 20% nerf, shield needs a 1s block instead of 1.5s, mes needs less access to instant cc, mirage em exhaustion nerf is healthy. Wrong. Not all phantasms are overperforming so a flat nerf is ridiculous. Start with a 10-15% nerf to the base damage on the main overperforming phantasm. If it’s not enough it’s not hard to nerf it more at a later time, better to do small nerfs than big ones. I’m fine with shield recieving the block duration, however, at the cost of getting Alacrity back on shield 5. Your issue with mental defense would be fixed without nerfing the trait if a three phantasm limit was imposed. It’s already on a 50s cd and only does high damage if you set there and attack it. Exhaustion on EM is ridiculous. It doesn’t fix anything. Remove stun break from it altogether and give it a second condi clear, mirror, or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragion.2831 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > @"Ragion.2831" said: > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > @"Ragion.2831" said: > > > > Seems generally people think mesmer is out of control. Usually a nerf is inbound when this many people talk about how broken something is. At this point mesmer mains should be worried. The wrong thing to do would be to straight nerf its defensive abilities or it will end up like thief (between the June 25th patch and HoT launch) > > > > > > > > In case you dont know what happened, Anet went on a crusade to kill evades because many many people complained about thief evades. Vigor got nerfed for everyone and thief endurance gain on evade (old feline grace) got replaced with the nerfed vigor. Thief became useless and was the worst class in pvp until HoT launched. Vigor change eventually got reverted. > > > > > > > > Mesmer has been built from the ground up to work only with extreme defense. Its worse now with all the damage. There was a time that mesmer was not all that, it was ok if you were good, but you had to be really good. Thief especially hard countered it and maybe warrior. > > > > > > > > Mesmer used to be especially vulnerable right after it used its burst which caused a lot of cries so Anet used HoT to buff its attack frequency and defenses to oblivion. This is why we are where we are now. > > > > > > > > Straight nerfing mes to the point where they dont evade or go invulnerable as often may end up killing the class. Like thief, it depends on the permanent evades. So maybe they could cut its offense by like 30%. So no more insta-combo kills and no more relentless clone spam and cut the amount of dazes, conditions and stuns they can apply > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you tell me what defenses scourge has that's comparable? How about healing, or damage? > > > > > > Mesmer will be just fine with some serious defensive nerfs man, it won't kill the class. They need a hit to both offense and defensive capabilities > > > > Why are you bringing up scourge? Scourge has nothing in common with mesmer > > > > Im not going to waste much time trying to convince you of something so obvious. I play pretty much exclusively revenant so I have more of a reason to say everything about mesmer should get axed. Except that ive seen what over-nerfing can do (again revenant, and i also mained thief for over a year). > > > > People complained that thief was doing too much that the evades should get nerfed. Guess what, it killed the class to the point where people held an in game protest. People complained that revenant was doing too much. Both its offense and defense got nerfed to the ground, now everyone saying rev is bad. > > > > People complained about DH, it was nerfed then DHs complained about being too squishy. I specifically warned about carelessly boosting DH's defenses because of the way traps worked, people like you argued. Guess what, Anet made the mistake of boosting everything, 2 days later forums got flooded with DH is op threads until traps got nerfed again. > > > > People are now complaining that mesmer is doing too much and now you are saying Anet should repeat the same mistake. If you dont see something wrong with that you shoudnt be talking about balance. > > > > All they need to do is to remove the invulns while being cc'd, remove some of the cc, remove the insta combo one shot, remove the relentless clone spam and ridiculous condi bombs. Everything else can stay the same. > > > > Ill just watch you argue and when Anet makes the mistake they usually do and over nerf mesmer, remember this post. > > > > So, they should nerf the whole class then? You just listed 5 incredibly strong assets of the mesmer class. Literally the same things I'm saying should be nerfed. I'm not sure if you're trying to argue with or agree with me man. That is not the entire class. They have their teleports and stealth which is a big part of their gameplay. They still have all skills with evade frames and invulns, they just wont be going invulnerable when stunned. They still have their burst just cant do it in a half second combo. They still have condi just not dropping 20 stacks of confusion per second. Clones are still there just not dealing with 10 seconds of shatters. What you re talking about is giving others more opportunities to hit mesmers which is what will kill the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egorum.9506 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > > > > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid will not win a 2v1 lol it can barely win a 1v1 if the enemy is kitten enough > > > > > > > > > > Not true. If you’re holding 2 people on far that puts the other team at a disadvantage. You are causing an outnumbered fight on the other two points which means your team should win 4v3. And this happens across all ranks. I can’t tell you how many times in plat I’ve had Druids tanking 1v2 and at times 1v3. In Platinum. That’s what a bunker spec is for, it wins via attrition and it does well at that. > > > > > > > > You are assuming the 2v1 is indefinite, which if given equal skill and the right classes (specifically thief or mesmer to +1) it is not. It is easy to either burst them down or at least make them rotate away then someone can pick up the 1v1. And druid should NEVER be able to kill 2 people v 1. > > > > > > > > Druid has like no damage since shout might stack build got killed. So they specced for more survivability which apparently being an inferior lesser support with no damage is OP still lmao. > > > > > > It doesn’t have to be indefinite. Once you start snowballing the other team, which you should, it doesn’t matter. > > > Again, killing doesn’t matter, it wins via attrition. > > > > > > Did I ever say they were OP? No I said they can win a 1v2 and explained my reasoning why. > > > > So how much stronger is mesmer that I can pick the class up and in a day not only hold 1v2, but win fights with it? > > > > Phantasms need a flat 20% nerf, shield needs a 1s block instead of 1.5s, mes needs less access to instant cc, mirage em exhaustion nerf is healthy. > > Wrong. > Not all phantasms are overperforming so a flat nerf is ridiculous. Start with a 10-15% nerf to the base damage on the main overperforming phantasm. If it’s not enough it’s not hard to nerf it more at a later time, better to do small nerfs than big ones. > I’m fine with shield recieving the block duration, however, at the cost of getting Alacrity back on shield 5. > > Your issue with mental defense would be fixed without nerfing the trait if a three phantasm limit was imposed. It’s already on a 50s cd and only does high damage if you set there and attack it. > > Exhaustion on EM is ridiculous. It doesn’t fix anything. Remove stun break from it altogether and give it a second condi clear, mirror, or something. Which part is wrong exactly, that mesmer is by default stronger than druid as it can win fights where a druid can only hold? The only ones that aren't over performing are pistol and focus. Good thing they wouldn't be hurt with a nerf since they're used by condi builds and zerg builds respectively! No buffs back, the purpose of this patch is to tone down the power creep. You can't do that by buffing in exchange for nerfs. I'm completely on board with there only being 3 phantasms up at once. What would you suggest in exchange for CP? It slows down the Dodge spam for mirage, which is the biggest problem with the spec. Being able to slip out of/avoid any counter pressure is too strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egorum.9506 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Ragion.2831" said: > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > @"Ragion.2831" said: > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > > @"Ragion.2831" said: > > > > > Seems generally people think mesmer is out of control. Usually a nerf is inbound when this many people talk about how broken something is. At this point mesmer mains should be worried. The wrong thing to do would be to straight nerf its defensive abilities or it will end up like thief (between the June 25th patch and HoT launch) > > > > > > > > > > In case you dont know what happened, Anet went on a crusade to kill evades because many many people complained about thief evades. Vigor got nerfed for everyone and thief endurance gain on evade (old feline grace) got replaced with the nerfed vigor. Thief became useless and was the worst class in pvp until HoT launched. Vigor change eventually got reverted. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer has been built from the ground up to work only with extreme defense. Its worse now with all the damage. There was a time that mesmer was not all that, it was ok if you were good, but you had to be really good. Thief especially hard countered it and maybe warrior. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer used to be especially vulnerable right after it used its burst which caused a lot of cries so Anet used HoT to buff its attack frequency and defenses to oblivion. This is why we are where we are now. > > > > > > > > > > Straight nerfing mes to the point where they dont evade or go invulnerable as often may end up killing the class. Like thief, it depends on the permanent evades. So maybe they could cut its offense by like 30%. So no more insta-combo kills and no more relentless clone spam and cut the amount of dazes, conditions and stuns they can apply > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you tell me what defenses scourge has that's comparable? How about healing, or damage? > > > > > > > > Mesmer will be just fine with some serious defensive nerfs man, it won't kill the class. They need a hit to both offense and defensive capabilities > > > > > > Why are you bringing up scourge? Scourge has nothing in common with mesmer > > > > > > Im not going to waste much time trying to convince you of something so obvious. I play pretty much exclusively revenant so I have more of a reason to say everything about mesmer should get axed. Except that ive seen what over-nerfing can do (again revenant, and i also mained thief for over a year). > > > > > > People complained that thief was doing too much that the evades should get nerfed. Guess what, it killed the class to the point where people held an in game protest. People complained that revenant was doing too much. Both its offense and defense got nerfed to the ground, now everyone saying rev is bad. > > > > > > People complained about DH, it was nerfed then DHs complained about being too squishy. I specifically warned about carelessly boosting DH's defenses because of the way traps worked, people like you argued. Guess what, Anet made the mistake of boosting everything, 2 days later forums got flooded with DH is op threads until traps got nerfed again. > > > > > > People are now complaining that mesmer is doing too much and now you are saying Anet should repeat the same mistake. If you dont see something wrong with that you shoudnt be talking about balance. > > > > > > All they need to do is to remove the invulns while being cc'd, remove some of the cc, remove the insta combo one shot, remove the relentless clone spam and ridiculous condi bombs. Everything else can stay the same. > > > > > > Ill just watch you argue and when Anet makes the mistake they usually do and over nerf mesmer, remember this post. > > > > > > > So, they should nerf the whole class then? You just listed 5 incredibly strong assets of the mesmer class. Literally the same things I'm saying should be nerfed. I'm not sure if you're trying to argue with or agree with me man. > > That is not the entire class. They have their teleports and stealth which is a big part of their gameplay. They still have all skills with evade frames and invulns, they just wont be going invulnerable when stunned. They still have their burst just cant do it in a half second combo. They still have condi just not dropping 20 stacks of confusion per second. Clones are still there just not dealing with 10 seconds of shatters. > > What you re talking about is giving others more opportunities to hit mesmers which is what will kill the class. Suggestions to fix this kitten: Phantasms need a flat 20% nerf, cd increase is ineffective due to signet of ether. Effectively, so long as the signet has a lower CD than the phantasm in question, a cd increase accomplishes nothing Shield needs a 1s block instead of 1.5s mes needs less access to instant cc mirage em exhaustion nerf is healthy Sword ambush needs to either lose the daze, or lose the clone Do these seem like I want to gut the class, or are they an accurate representation of changes that need made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > > > > > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid will not win a 2v1 lol it can barely win a 1v1 if the enemy is kitten enough > > > > > > > > > > > > Not true. If you’re holding 2 people on far that puts the other team at a disadvantage. You are causing an outnumbered fight on the other two points which means your team should win 4v3. And this happens across all ranks. I can’t tell you how many times in plat I’ve had Druids tanking 1v2 and at times 1v3. In Platinum. That’s what a bunker spec is for, it wins via attrition and it does well at that. > > > > > > > > > > You are assuming the 2v1 is indefinite, which if given equal skill and the right classes (specifically thief or mesmer to +1) it is not. It is easy to either burst them down or at least make them rotate away then someone can pick up the 1v1. And druid should NEVER be able to kill 2 people v 1. > > > > > > > > > > Druid has like no damage since shout might stack build got killed. So they specced for more survivability which apparently being an inferior lesser support with no damage is OP still lmao. > > > > > > > > It doesn’t have to be indefinite. Once you start snowballing the other team, which you should, it doesn’t matter. > > > > Again, killing doesn’t matter, it wins via attrition. > > > > > > > > Did I ever say they were OP? No I said they can win a 1v2 and explained my reasoning why. > > > > > > So how much stronger is mesmer that I can pick the class up and in a day not only hold 1v2, but win fights with it? > > > > > > Phantasms need a flat 20% nerf, shield needs a 1s block instead of 1.5s, mes needs less access to instant cc, mirage em exhaustion nerf is healthy. > > > > Wrong. > > Not all phantasms are overperforming so a flat nerf is ridiculous. Start with a 10-15% nerf to the base damage on the main overperforming phantasm. If it’s not enough it’s not hard to nerf it more at a later time, better to do small nerfs than big ones. > > I’m fine with shield recieving the block duration, however, at the cost of getting Alacrity back on shield 5. > > > > Your issue with mental defense would be fixed without nerfing the trait if a three phantasm limit was imposed. It’s already on a 50s cd and only does high damage if you set there and attack it. > > > > Exhaustion on EM is ridiculous. It doesn’t fix anything. Remove stun break from it altogether and give it a second condi clear, mirror, or something. > > Which part is wrong exactly, that mesmer is by default stronger than druid as it can win fights where a druid can only hold? > > The only ones that aren't over performing are pistol and focus. Good thing they wouldn't be hurt with a nerf since they're used by condi builds and zero builds respectively! > No, the only ones truly overperforming are defender and disenchanter. Swordsman, mage, warlock and zerker all have extremely telegraphed attacks and easily avoided. I’m willing to let swordsman take a small nerf even with it’s highly telegraphed leap. > No buffs back, the purpose of this patch is to tone down the power creep. You can't do that by buffing in exchange for nerfs. > Then shield gets zero nerfs. It’s been nerfed enough and has counter play. Again, you can prevent the phantasm from being summoned. > I'm completely on board with there only being 3 phantasms up at once. What would you suggest in exchange for CP? > Hmm I don’t think you would have to do anything. Having a 3 phantasm limit fixes the problem of them being spammed via f5 and SoE. You would have to actually manage the summons rather than spam them so you could leave CP alone, unless you see a potential issue I don’t? > It slows down the Dodge spam for mirage, which is the biggest problem with the spec. Being able to slip out of/avoid any counter pressure is too strong. Mirage has the same amount of dodges as any other class aside from daredevil. Exhaustion was designed for daredevil because they have 3 dodges and skills to recover endurance outside of regen. It will do nothing to reduce this... naive thought that mirage has more dodges than anyone else. The mechanic mirage is based around is mirage cloak and ambushes and that’s were we have issues. Most mesmer mains did not want this mechanic as they halfway built it around the name of the spec. Mirrors are half baked and clunky to use UNLESS on a small point. Which means they’re useful in WvW but strong in pvp. You can’t remove mirrors without redoing th entire mechanic and since they didn’t do it in the beta when we told them how stupid it was you really aren’t going to get them to change it now. So really what you’re seeing isn’t dodges but mirrors being used. But the trait to turn clones into mirrors ties into distortion which is a 50s cd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Egorum.9506" said: > Because they pretty clearly don't. I've played about 300 games on mesmer over the last 5 years and i've been handling 2v1s like it's no problem all afternoon. The class has way too much access to blocks, evades, and invulns. It needs some time on the butcher block before the next season. > > > > Suggestions to fix this kitten: > > Phantasms need a flat 20% nerf, cd increase is ineffective due to signet of ether. Effectively, so long as the signet has a lower CD than the phantasm in question, a cd increase accomplishes nothing > > Shield needs a 1s block instead of 1.5s > > mes needs less access to instant cc > > mirage em exhaustion nerf is healthy > > Sword ambush needs to either lose the daze, or lose the clone Fun fact time, mesmer shield block has the highest cool down of any block in the game with no corresponding trait to lower it’s cool down as it starts after you use it a second time. If you didn’t block anything not only did you waste the block but you had half the block duration of warriors block while having a cool down anywhere between 20% and 50% longer than the warriors block. Instant CC is mantra and diversion, magic bullet has 1/2s cast, signet of domination is about as useful as soggy toilet paper but is closer to instant at 1/4s. However mesmer has a lot of on interrupt traits, ever tried to play and interrupt build without fast casting CCs? It’s an exercise in frustration and easily countered. I can get behind lowering the duration of instant cast CCs though, so mantra is more for interrupting than for getting CS 1s stun. Most complaints are actually about confounding suggestions not the CCs. Exhaustion was lazy on daredevil and it’s worse on mirage. Stunbreak on dodge is too strong to be in the game, it shouldn’t be in the game and I’m sick of people even thinking there’s a solution to balance it, there isn’t and the stunbreak should be removed from elusive mind. Sword ambush losing the clone? Yeah I guess the skill is a bit overloaded but losing the daze would make sword ambush from clones have no effect at all (which defeats the point of infinite horizon almost entirely) so I don’t think the daze should be removed, especially as it’s a 1/4s daze. Phantasms don’t need a unilateral nerf, this is lazy and a silly idea. They need balancing individually but more importantly Mesmer shouldn’t be able to take 1 trait and see a huge boost to personal damage and phantasm damage or choose one trait and get a 100% damage buff to phantasms. At this point it’s probably time to make phantasms benefit from mesmer damage mods, might etc just like normal weapon skills do on other classes then adjust the damage. To anyone that doesn’t know, phantasms afaik don’t benefit from runes, sigils, might (without a trait) or percentage damage buffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > Messmores, are the "baby" of gw. Too bad they lost a unique status when they became this cloniferous time mage thing. A bunch of made up words in my posting. Remember when all the Mesmers said Warriors were the favored child of Arenanet? Ha. Hahaha. Good times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Egorum.9506" said: Your suggestions are bad and seems like the way anet balance things, in a wrong places. Jace said million times what could be done , i did the same. You just want to overnerf everything and then while that wont work nerf even more(shield duration is completely fine 1.5s for 35s cd and u deny phantasms). Great example of the past was take away bounce from GS2 and its been gone until they returned it. @"Jace al Thor.6745" SHield phantasm is 2k base damage , its must be reduced and MAY BE remove counter play for shield because summoning 2 phantasm is legit now :) Defender need REWORK. Disenchanter is hit too much on boonless target ,sure, but its even bugged on top ,its dont bounce more than 2 targets if they are dont stand in straight line :) Stop touching sword phantasm >:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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