Humanity in Guild Wars 2: A species without merits?

[Oglaf.1074]

> @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > Calling the entire Norn species violent drunkards comes off as a tad bit prejudiced and bigoted to me. The Norns have plenty of _actual flaws_ and there is no need to stoop so low as to create a strawman like that.

> >

> > Their number one and most glaring flaw is their highly individualistic view of morality and ambivalence towards good and evil. They’re the only race that actually tolerates the influence of an Elder Dragon (which is highly ironic considering what Jormag has done to them) simply because of their strongly held collective belief in personal choice. Sure, individual Norns are free to oppose the Sons of Svanir if they so choose but as a whole there isn’t any direct opposition to them (as, for example the Charr do the Flame Legion). Quite the opposite with the odd duality of Jormag both as the great enemy and a proper Spirit of the Wild.

> >

> > This attitude, while kind of noble and admirable, is extremely naive and foolhardy in the face of the actual threat Jormag poses and will come back and bite them (and as we see in the Norn areas, others) in the butt.

>

> Calling the Asura all egomaniacal and lacking empathy is wrong too, we see tons of cases of them showing compassion. The superiority complex in my eyes is like the same kind that any more technologically advanced civilization has towards their less advanced peers.

 

 

... Yes? Why quote me on this?

 

[Eekasqueak.7850]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > > Calling the entire Norn species violent drunkards comes off as a tad bit prejudiced and bigoted to me. The Norns have plenty of _actual flaws_ and there is no need to stoop so low as to create a strawman like that.

> > >

> > > Their number one and most glaring flaw is their highly individualistic view of morality and ambivalence towards good and evil. They’re the only race that actually tolerates the influence of an Elder Dragon (which is highly ironic considering what Jormag has done to them) simply because of their strongly held collective belief in personal choice. Sure, individual Norns are free to oppose the Sons of Svanir if they so choose but as a whole there isn’t any direct opposition to them (as, for example the Charr do the Flame Legion). Quite the opposite with the odd duality of Jormag both as the great enemy and a proper Spirit of the Wild.

> > >

> > > This attitude, while kind of noble and admirable, is extremely naive and foolhardy in the face of the actual threat Jormag poses and will come back and bite them (and as we see in the Norn areas, others) in the butt.

> >

> > Calling the Asura all egomaniacal and lacking empathy is wrong too, we see tons of cases of them showing compassion. The superiority complex in my eyes is like the same kind that any more technologically advanced civilization has towards their less advanced peers.

>

>

> ... Yes? Why quote me on this?

>

 

I was adding to your point, not arguing with it.

[Telwyn.1630]

> @"Karaiel.9378" said:

> Disclaimer: I do not approve of the conclusion i achieve in this post and would be happy to be proven wrong. The statements here aren't intended to insult or refer to real-life humans or cultures or religious believes or the values of atheism or religion at large. Please do not bring them up in this Thread.

>

> After "One path ends" (Season 3, Episode 6) i explored Sirens Landing and came across a lot of ambient dialogue that frames Humans in a very negative light:

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Risen_Lowlands#Ambient_dialogue (eleventh dialogue from the top)

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abaddon%27s_Reliquary (number 4: While this implies this is somewhat true of all races, it frames it as a need for unquesting obedience for humans, while other Species seam to have a "proper" system of.)

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa%27s_Reliquary (number 2)

>

> These depict humanity as a weak species that needed its gods to survive and can not function without them. This drove me to question how much of a reliable narrator these sylvari are. After all, they could be biased. Humanity had stopped Abbadon, after all. Plus they were the ones to stop. I searched for interviews and hints in the story and found out that human were pretty weak magic wise:

>

> https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Angel-McCoy-Interview/page/3#post2821776

>

> Well, okay.

> So at least i tried to find counterpoints to the whole "humanity is backwards and can't think for themself" bit. Turns out, these Sylvari were right and humanity seams to have an innate desire to be ruled and dominated, plus having a misplaced faith on the human gods:

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doomsayer_Senug

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arid_Gladefields (8th from the top)

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Free_City_of_Amnoon (Palawa Joko can somehow convince them he is a loving father figure or the whole thing with "becoming awakened is a blessing")

>

> I could go on about the quotes, but do not have the time to sift through all the dialogue and quote it verbatim. Take as other examples the ravings of Warden Amalya (other Awakened, Koss for example, showed enough willpower to defy Joko, when they hated him enough), the Zaishen, the Elonians mistaking Balthazar rampage as a productive -notworld-dooming activity, the continued believe that the gods are coming to save them, while Kromir explicitly denied that, the fact that under only non human rule, sane humans can improve themselves and experience technological advancement, (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Donal_Regland), and so forth.

>

> And then i realised that humanity and the gods were the cause for at least Abbadon (who would not be a problem if Humanity didn't exist) and all the entailing things like Murassat, Titans, nightfall and so forth. Humanity caused all the Problems it "solved" (with a lot of help from other species)

> My conclusion: Humanity (with some exceptions) is a cruel, stupid and childish species who relied on the gods to achieve anything of note, like robbing the Charr of Ascalon. Now that they are gone, humanity faces its deserved downfall. Maybe a more enlightened species can subjugate and redeem them.

> My question is: Do you think that humanity as depicted in Guild Wars 2 have positive qualities distinguishing them from others? Charr and Norn are stronger than them, Asura and Charr smarter and more advanced, Sylvari more "cultured", kind and empathetic than them. The only thing they are "better" at than one other species is strength... compared to the asuras, who have a lot of GOLEMs that are stronger than humans and numbers(Kralkatorik, Joko and all the other threats are working on fixing that).

> I would be delighted to be proven wrong. I will not be able to respond in the following hours, my apologies.

 

> @"Karaiel.9378" said:

> Disclaimer: I do not approve of the conclusion i achieve in this post and would be happy to be proven wrong. The statements here aren't intended to insult or refer to real-life humans or cultures or religious believes or the values of atheism or religion at large. Please do not bring them up in this Thread.

>

> After "One path ends" (Season 3, Episode 6) i explored Sirens Landing and came across a lot of ambient dialogue that frames Humans in a very negative light:

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Risen_Lowlands#Ambient_dialogue (eleventh dialogue from the top)

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abaddon%27s_Reliquary (number 4: While this implies this is somewhat true of all races, it frames it as a need for unquesting obedience for humans, while other Species seam to have a "proper" system of.)

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa%27s_Reliquary (number 2)

>

> These depict humanity as a weak species that needed its gods to survive and can not function without them. This drove me to question how much of a reliable narrator these sylvari are. After all, they could be biased. Humanity had stopped Abbadon, after all. Plus they were the ones to stop. I searched for interviews and hints in the story and found out that human were pretty weak magic wise:

>

> https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Angel-McCoy-Interview/page/3#post2821776

>

> Well, okay.

> So at least i tried to find counterpoints to the whole "humanity is backwards and can't think for themself" bit. Turns out, these Sylvari were right and humanity seams to have an innate desire to be ruled and dominated, plus having a misplaced faith on the human gods:

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doomsayer_Senug

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arid_Gladefields (8th from the top)

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Free_City_of_Amnoon (Palawa Joko can somehow convince them he is a loving father figure or the whole thing with "becoming awakened is a blessing")

>

> I could go on about the quotes, but do not have the time to sift through all the dialogue and quote it verbatim. Take as other examples the ravings of Warden Amalya (other Awakened, Koss for example, showed enough willpower to defy Joko, when they hated him enough), the Zaishen, the Elonians mistaking Balthazar rampage as a productive -notworld-dooming activity, the continued believe that the gods are coming to save them, while Kromir explicitly denied that, the fact that under only non human rule, sane humans can improve themselves and experience technological advancement, (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Donal_Regland), and so forth.

>

> And then i realised that humanity and the gods were the cause for at least Abbadon (who would not be a problem if Humanity didn't exist) and all the entailing things like Murassat, Titans, nightfall and so forth. Humanity caused all the Problems it "solved" (with a lot of help from other species)

> My conclusion: Humanity (with some exceptions) is a cruel, stupid and childish species who relied on the gods to achieve anything of note, like robbing the Charr of Ascalon. Now that they are gone, humanity faces its deserved downfall. Maybe a more enlightened species can subjugate and redeem them.

> My question is: Do you think that humanity as depicted in Guild Wars 2 have positive qualities distinguishing them from others? Charr and Norn are stronger than them, Asura and Charr smarter and more advanced, Sylvari more "cultured", kind and empathetic than them. The only thing they are "better" at than one other species is strength... compared to the asuras, who have a lot of GOLEMs that are stronger than humans and numbers(Kralkatorik, Joko and all the other threats are working on fixing that).

> I would be delighted to be proven wrong. I will not be able to respond in the following hours, my apologies.

 

Accept the player human character as he or she had nothing with what happen in the past just the humans gods and everyone who followed them.

[Telwyn.1630]

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> As far as I was aware Ascalonian soldiers were perfectly capable of facing down one or more charr at the same time. Just saying.

> I don't think it's fair to say they rely on the gods. They're the ones that end up policing their own gods.

 

Thats why I like Ascalon and Love the female charr too

[CHIPS.6018]

On a 1 vs 1 basis, Norn is the strongest, followed by Charr. However, it is obvious that Humans have a much larger population. Hence humans forms the backbone of the Pact army.

 

Sylvari and Asura both outnumbers the humans. Sylvari are on equal standing with humans in 1 vs 1. Asuras would be weaker than humans 1 vs 1, but Asura have technology to help them. But either way, Sylvari are busy discovering who they are and what they want to do individually. Asura are great inventors but are so often busy with their own research. As such neither of them joined the Pact in as great a number as they could have. So once again humans forms the backbone of the Pact army.

 

There is no actual statistics in the number of people from each race that joined the Pact. However if I have to guess, probably:

 

15% Norn (but each are SUPER strong)

25% Charr (but each Charr is stronger than a human, on average)

40% Humans

20% Sylvari

10% Asura (but those that join the Pact and share their discoveries are of great help.)

 

Hence I believe the biggest merit of the humans to the Pact is their numbers.

 

In the world lore, in Tyria and Elona, the humans are a falling race. Their gods have left them and they will get weaker and weaker. However I believe in Cantha the humans are super strong. While in Tyria and Elona the humans struggles against other races and the undead, in Cantha the humans have conquered everything. As we seen in GW1, the Ministry of Purity was able to produce level 28 units to fight. Now I know this might be due to game balancing, but keep in mind that level 28 units are "hard" to produce in the GW1 universe. Level 28 enemies are mostly demons and other monstrosity. For the Ministry of Purity to make their human army into level 28 was quite a feat. Even their regular troops (non-elite) are level 26. And it was this army that ends up conquering the whole Cantha and subjecting everything under its rule.

 

When Cantha comes to engage the humans of Tyria and Elona in GW2, the humans of Tyria and Elona must make a choice. Either accept the dictatorship of MoP in order to restore humanity's former greatness, joining MoP and fighting against other races, or fight against MoP's tyranny. Given how the story seems to be going, MoP will be the villain and the Pact would fight against it. But this also ensures the downfall of humanity, its slow descent into the status of the likes of the Forgotten and Seers.

[Cristalyan.5728]

> @"Karaiel.9378" said:

> Disclaimer: I do not approve of the conclusion i achieve in this post and would be happy to be proven wrong. The statements here aren't intended to insult or refer to real-life humans or cultures or religious believes or the values of atheism or religion at large. Please do not bring them up in this Thread.

>

................................

>

> And then i realised that humanity and the gods were the cause for at least Abbadon (who would not be a problem if Humanity didn't exist) and all the entailing things like Murassat, Titans, nightfall and so forth. Humanity caused all the Problems it "solved" (with a lot of help from other species)

> My conclusion: Humanity (with some exceptions) is a cruel, stupid and childish species who relied on the gods to achieve anything of note, like robbing the Charr of Ascalon. Now that they are gone, humanity faces its deserved downfall. Maybe a more enlightened species can subjugate and redeem them.

> My question is: Do you think that humanity as depicted in Guild Wars 2 have positive qualities distinguishing them from others? Charr and Norn are stronger than them, Asura and Charr smarter and more advanced, Sylvari more "cultured", kind and empathetic than them. The only thing they are "better" at than one other species is strength... compared to the asuras, who have a lot of GOLEMs that are stronger than humans and numbers(Kralkatorik, Joko and all the other threats are working on fixing that).

> I would be delighted to be proven wrong. I will not be able to respond in the following hours, my apologies.

 

The humans and the "gods" are not native from Tyria. With other words they are an invasive species. In any case of invasive species we know, the "invaders" brought nothing good. They have no natural predators. They are immune to the regulating mechanism of the new environment. They don't belong to the new world. And usually they destroy the new environment trying to change it to fit their needs.

 

By coming in Tyria the humans already produced a perturbation. But, influenced (and helped) by the gods the turned the perturbation in something even worse. They took everything they wanted. They started war with the races not agreeing with their practices (the war with the charrs / the conquer of Ascalon by humans). Also, the presence of the humans in Tyria generated eventually the Abaddon "problem" - I'm still not sure if the Abaddon was the problem. Solving it does not bring any merit to the human race, because they generated it. (funny, this is an ANet like practice - they make an unnecessary change, generate a problem, then with another change they "solve" the issue, waiting us to praise them for the work done to "save" us. And more funny, some players really see ANet as saviors =) ).

 

I read somewhere a description saying something like: The evil is always self destructive. When it has no more targets to destroy it turns against itself. Something the humans did - when they settled the war with the charrs, having no more targets, they started to fight each other. Bringing the humanity on the verge of collapse.

 

To conclude - the way the human race is depicted in GW2 by the lore team bring them no merits or qualities. Moreover, if you think how much they are influenced by the gods you start to wander if the aggressivity, greed, conspiracy, internal fights the human race displays are not in fact attributes of the "gods"? This may attenuate the bad reputation of the humans, but adding in exchange the label of immature monkeys mimicking without thinking all they see to a "superior" entity - the gods.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

The mind boggles at how you seriously come to that conclusion.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

Self-destructive tendencies are hardly restricted to humans. I'd argue that the charr and asura both have it worse in that regard- at least, in comparison to Ebonhawke and Kryta. Joko's probably on the same level as the Flame Legion.

[dusanyu.4057]

To be honest in Guild wars Humanity was always a bit of a Invasive Species. i am going to quote the guild wars 1 wiki "Wherever they originated, humans are not native to the world as they were brought there by the Six Gods. The gods themselves only predate humans by a short period of time."

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Human

 

TheyAfterword with the help of the gods Took over almost all of the landmass of Tyria (the world not just the continent) It is telling that as soon as the gods stopped intervening on there behalf Humans began to be pushed back to where we see them now in GW2 after all the end of nightfall was a indicator that they were going hands off "this is your world now"

 

now they are in a bad spot there old enemies while in currently a truce exists are in a stronger position that they are and the other races who have relations with them are sworn to neutrality.

 

If i was the Krytan monarch I would try to keep on the good side of the Charr and Asura or else be treated like Kudzu

[Loesh.4697]

I always thought it was kind of bizarre that people thought that humans were this failing, dying, species that was unable to hold it's own in a fight when pretty much everything pointed to the opposite. Yeah humanity began to weaken without the gods, but the gods had been intervening less by the start of GW1 and practically the entire point of that series of games was how a band of humans came to overcome impossible odds and save the world on multiple occasions. Even in Eye of the North where the other races came into play and began to show their own merits, humans were portrayed as the glue that held everything together and kept the world from falling to pieces, and it's from their legends that modern heroes across races draw inspiration.

 

Humans are creative, intelligent, have a keener understanding of the supernatural aspects of Tyria then other races and generally have proven even individual farmers with pitchforks can gut a dozen Charr in a fight if given time to prep.

[kasoki.5180]

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> The mind boggles at how you seriously come to that conclusion.

 

I am actually baffled by how do people reach these kinds of conclusion. Like what do you think about humans in real life then? :D

 

> @"Karaiel.9378" said:

> And then i realised that humanity and the gods were the cause for at least Abbadon (who would not be a problem if Humanity didn't exist) and all the entailing things like Murassat, Titans, nightfall and so forth. Humanity caused all the Problems it "solved" (with a lot of help from other species)

 

Thats not how guilt works. You cant simply assign blame by proxy. This is not even example of guilt by association. Unless subjext X actually did or failed to do something you cant really assign blame to them. You can't simply take a list of chronological events and then treat them as if all of these events and their respective agents had the same status, responsibility, influence, agency, guilt etc etc. You cant transfer liability retroactively to different agents. Thats not how guilt or liability work. Thats like blaming Vienna art school for WWII.

 

> @"Karaiel.9378" said:

> My conclusion: Humanity (with some exceptions) is a cruel, stupid and childish species who relied on the gods to achieve anything of note, like robbing the Charr of Ascalon. Now that they are gone, humanity faces its deserved downfall. Maybe a more enlightened species can subjugate and redeem them.

 

Charr took Ascalon from other races by force. Humans took it from Charr. Humans held Ascalon 10 times longer than Charr ever did and then Charr, led by religious fanatics, committed genocide against humans. Also, nothing in the game shows that humanity is facing a downfall. What they lost is dominance in central Tyria.

 

> @"Karaiel.9378" said:

> My question is: Do you think that humanity as depicted in Guild Wars 2 have positive qualities distinguishing them from others? Charr and Norn are stronger than them, Asura and Charr smarter and more advanced, Sylvari more "cultured", kind and empathetic than them. The only thing they are "better" at than one other species is strength... compared to the asuras, who have a lot of GOLEMs that are stronger than humans and numbers(Kralkatorik, Joko and all the other threats are working on fixing that).

 

Humans are the basis for all other races. As it is common in Sci-Fi and fantasy, all other races are based on taking one aspect of humans and turning it up to eleven. Which is why very often these races get to seem one dimensional and generic and members of those races seem like walking stereotypes. Not to mention how you are ignoring that even those races have their own anti-thesis. For example Nightmare court are complete opposite of "main" sylvari, just like Flame Legion is complete opposite of other High Legions.

 

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> The humans and the "gods" are not native from Tyria. With other words they are an invasive species. In any case of invasive species we know, the "invaders" brought nothing good. They have no natural predators. They are immune to the regulating mechanism of the new environment. They don't belong to the new world. And usually they destroy the new environment trying to change it to fit their needs.

>

 

To my knowledge there are four major environment changing events in Guild Wars - Creation of Crystal desert, Jade Winds, Searing of Ascalon and Rise of Zhaitan. None of those can be attributed to humans as civilization or culture, unlike Searing of Ascalon which is very much aspect of historical Charr culture.

 

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> By coming in Tyria the humans already produced a perturbation. But, influenced (and helped) by the gods the turned the perturbation in something even worse. They took everything they wanted. They started war with the races not agreeing with their practices (the war with the charrs / the conquer of Ascalon by humans). Also, the presence of the humans in Tyria generated eventually the Abaddon "problem" - I'm still not sure if the Abaddon was the problem. Solving it does not bring any merit to the human race, because they generated it. (funny, this is an ANet like practice - they make an unnecessary change, generate a problem, then with another change they "solve" the issue, waiting us to praise them for the work done to "save" us. And more funny, some players really see ANet as saviors =) ).

>

 

This is factually incorrect and also applies double standard to Charr/Human conquering of Ascalon. I have already wrote about this in the beginning of my post

 

 

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> I read somewhere a description saying something like: The evil is always self destructive. When it has no more targets to destroy it turns against itself. Something the humans did - when they settled the war with the charrs, having no more targets, they started to fight each other. Bringing the humanity on the verge of collapse.

>

Then you are gonna love this

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Legions_of_the_Charr

 

"But after the structures of Iron, Ash, and Blood were rebuilt, it seemed almost impossible that the three legions wouldn't immediately fall upon one another and take advantage of any weaknesses, potentially eradicating themselves.

 

That's exactly what might have happened, had it not been for the ghosts of Ascalon.

 

Adelbern's curse upon the lands of Ascalon swept through the humans. In a white-hot moment, it destroyed their physical forms and cursed their spirits to wander the land, forever fighting against the charr. Because the ghostly enemy was unrelenting and never completely defeated, the High Legions of the charr were forced to work together from the outset if they wished to survive. Although they detested the forced unity, the need to defend themselves and Ascalon taught the three legions how to work together without sacrificing their individuality."

_

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> To conclude - the way the human race is depicted in GW2 by the lore team bring them no merits or qualities. Moreover, if you think how much they are influenced by the gods you start to wander if the aggressivity, greed, conspiracy, internal fights the human race displays are not in fact attributes of the "gods"? This may attenuate the bad reputation of the humans, but adding in exchange the label of immature monkeys mimicking without thinking all they see to a "superior" entity - the gods.

 

Nothing in the game suggest that they are influenced by their gods to an extreme levels. Actually, within the Human personal story there is no display of any particular religious fervor. Norn have serious worship of the Spirits of the Wild. Sylvari have literal obsession with Ventari tablet (in a way a religious text) and Pale Tree is basically a benevolent dictator/high priest. Asuras have Eternal Alchemy, which is very close to Spinoza's God. If you broaden your scope of what religion actually are, you'll see that humans are equally or even less religious than some races.

 

Aggression, greed, conspiracy and internal fights are displayed among other races too, not just humans. So its kind of a moot point.

 

[Loesh.4697]

I mean, if we're talking about merit and destructiveness to the world. Charr kind of seem like a fascist hereditary dictatorship that's forced all of it's members to engage in an enormous death cult. Something that the Olmakhan, Rox, and the new short story about Rytlock seem to be addressing directly now. I'm kind of interested to see if Anet is going to actually do something with the fact Charr have been villain protagonists for several years now.

[Cristalyan.5728]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

>

> > @"Karaiel.9378" said:

> > And then i realised that humanity and the gods were the cause for at least Abbadon (who would not be a problem if Humanity didn't exist) and all the entailing things like Murassat, Titans, nightfall and so forth. Humanity caused all the Problems it "solved" (with a lot of help from other species)

>

> Thats not how guilt works. You cant simply assign blame by proxy. This is not even example of guilt by association. Unless subjext X actually did or failed to do something you cant really assign blame to them. You can't simply take a list of chronological events and then treat them as if all of these events and their respective agents had the same status, responsibility, influence, agency, guilt etc etc. You cant transfer liability retroactively to different agents. Thats not how guilt or liability work. Thats like blaming Vienna art school for WWII.

>

 

The statement of the OP was: " who would not be a problem if Humanity didn't exist". Is this TRUE or FALSE? Because:

- If TRUE that means he is right, the humans and their gods were the seeds for some major disasters in the history.

- If FALSE - why it is this statement FALSE?

 

> > @"Karaiel.9378" said:

> > My conclusion: Humanity (with some exceptions) is a cruel, stupid and childish species who relied on the gods to achieve anything of note, like robbing the Charr of Ascalon. Now that they are gone, humanity faces its deserved downfall. Maybe a more enlightened species can subjugate and redeem them.

>

> Charr took Ascalon from other races by force. Humans took it from Charr. Humans held Ascalon 10 times longer than Charr ever did and then Charr, led by religious fanatics, committed genocide against humans. Also, nothing in the game shows that humanity is facing a downfall. What they lost is dominance in central Tyria.

>

So, you suggest that by taking the Ascalon back from the Charrs the humans brought justice? Are they the Scourge of the God? But even so, did they return the Ascalon back to the righteous owners? BTW - who were the entitled owners of Ascalon before Charrs?

 

> > @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> > The humans and the "gods" are not native from Tyria. With other words they are an invasive species. In any case of invasive species we know, the "invaders" brought nothing good. They have no natural predators. They are immune to the regulating mechanism of the new environment. They don't belong to the new world. And usually they destroy the new environment trying to change it to fit their needs.

> >

>

> To my knowledge there are four major environment changing events in Guild Wars - Creation of Crystal desert, Jade Winds, Searing of Ascalon and Rise of Zhaitan. None of those can be attributed to humans as civilization or culture, unlike Searing of Ascalon which is very much aspect of historical Charr culture.

 

All the four major environment changing events are related and generated by humans and the human gods. Shortly:

- The Creation of the Crystal Desert: The Margonites (the **human** followers of Abaddon - **a human god**) - were chassed and hunted by the Forgotten (presumably the **protectors** of the human race). Abaddon stepped into conflict and punished the Forgotten. Then the gods attacked Abaddon - the result of the warr was the Desert.

- Jade Winds - is related with Shiro Tagachi. Another human.

- Searing of Ascalon - generated by the human occupation of Ascalon. The Flame legion Shamans in an effort to take Ascalon back used magic from Titans.

- Rise of Zhaitan - started by the human gods when splitting the magic and sealing it in the Bloodstones. They tapped into the dragon magic, being unaware of the Zhaitan presence.

 

So, **all** of the events are generated by the humans and their presence in Tyria.

>

> > @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> > By coming in Tyria the humans already produced a perturbation. But, influenced (and helped) by the gods the turned the perturbation in something even worse. They took everything they wanted. They started war with the races not agreeing with their practices (the war with the charrs / the conquer of Ascalon by humans). Also, the presence of the humans in Tyria generated eventually the Abaddon "problem" - I'm still not sure if the Abaddon was the problem. Solving it does not bring any merit to the human race, because they generated it. (funny, this is an ANet like practice - they make an unnecessary change, generate a problem, then with another change they "solve" the issue, waiting us to praise them for the work done to "save" us. And more funny, some players really see ANet as saviors =) ).

> >

>

> This is factually incorrect and also applies double standard to Charr/Human conquering of Ascalon. I have already wrote about this in the beginning of my post

>

 

We are talking here about humans. Nothing about charrs. If you are so interested in charrs, please open another post.

 

>

> > @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> > I read somewhere a description saying something like: The evil is always self destructive. When it has no more targets to destroy it turns against itself. Something the humans did - when they settled the war with the charrs, having no more targets, they started to fight each other. Bringing the humanity on the verge of collapse.

> >

> Then you are gonna love this

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Legions_of_the_Charr

>

> "But after the structures of Iron, Ash, and Blood were rebuilt, it seemed almost impossible that the three legions wouldn't immediately fall upon one another and take advantage of any weaknesses, potentially eradicating themselves.

>

> That's exactly what might have happened, had it not been for the ghosts of Ascalon.

>

> Adelbern's curse upon the lands of Ascalon swept through the humans. In a white-hot moment, it destroyed their physical forms and cursed their spirits to wander the land, forever fighting against the charr. Because the ghostly enemy was unrelenting and never completely defeated, the High Legions of the charr were forced to work together from the outset if they wished to survive. Although they detested the forced unity, the need to defend themselves and Ascalon taught the three legions how to work together without sacrificing their individuality."

> _

I don't see any relation between the human behavior in Tyria and the Movement of the World.

As for the legions - Yes, indeed it was a civil warr. The charrs tried to free themselves from the slavery of the Flame Legions Shamans. The Shamans used magic gifted by the Titans in an effort to take back Ascalon (conquered by the **humans**). It is said that the Titans were controllable by the Scepter of Orr - a human gods creation. Also, the origin location of the Titans was the Foundry of Failed Creations - this place has been a prison for the Margonites (the Abaddon followers) ruled by the Forgotten - the human race "protectors". So, without humans and their gods even this civil war is questionable.

 

> > @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> > To conclude - the way the human race is depicted in GW2 by the lore team bring them no merits or qualities. Moreover, if you think how much they are influenced by the gods you start to wander if the aggressivity, greed, conspiracy, internal fights the human race displays are not in fact attributes of the "gods"? This may attenuate the bad reputation of the humans, but adding in exchange the label of immature monkeys mimicking without thinking all they see to a "superior" entity - the gods.

>

> Nothing in the game suggest that they are influenced by their gods to an extreme levels. Actually, within the Human personal story there is no display of any particular religious fervor. Norn have serious worship of the Spirits of the Wild. Sylvari have literal obsession with Ventari tablet (in a way a religious text) and Pale Tree is basically a benevolent dictator/high priest. Asuras have Eternal Alchemy, which is very close to Spinoza's God. If you broaden your scope of what religion actually are, you'll see that humans are equally or even less religious than some races.

>

If you cannot see the influence of the gods in the human actions and hystory, then I cannot help you to see them. And again, this is a debate about humans and not charrs/sylvary/asura/norn. But **humans**

 

> Aggression, greed, conspiracy and internal fights are displayed among other races too, not just humans. So its kind of a moot point.

>

 

This is a true pearl. We cannot prove we are not bad. But the others are bad too. So, by comparation we are not so bad. In fact, the others are even worse. That means we are in fact the good guys =). As an asura may say: "Priceless"

This is a typical political rhetoric.

 

[Zania.8461]

I am not sure that lumping humanity and human gods into "humanity" is fair. At least some of the gods are different species altogether, and rogue gods HAVE caused a crap ton of issues. So I would argue that human gods, often acting without full knowledge of how the world worked caused massive destruction. I don't see how you would attribute blame to humanity itself. If the gods have arrived without humans in toe and instead decided to adopt grawl (or charr), the same issues would have arisen.

 

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

 

> > Aggression, greed, conspiracy and internal fights are displayed among other races too, not just humans. So its kind of a moot point.

> >

>

> This is a true pearl. We cannot prove we are not bad. But the others are bad too. So, by comparation we are not so bad. In fact, the others are even worse. That means we are in fact the good guys =). As an asura may say: "Priceless"

> This is a typical political rhetoric.

>

 

'We'?

[Cristalyan.5728]

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

>

> > > Aggression, greed, conspiracy and internal fights are displayed among other races too, not just humans. So its kind of a moot point.

> > >

> >

> > This is a true pearl. We cannot prove we are not bad. But the others are bad too. So, by comparation we are not so bad. In fact, the others are even worse. That means we are in fact the good guys =). As an asura may say: "Priceless"

> > This is a typical political rhetoric.

> >

>

> 'We'?

 

=) =) =) As I said, a typical political rhetoric =). I put "We .... " because it serves the best the speech. It is demagogic? I think so. But the phrase is made using the quoted poster statement as model.

And YES, "We, the Tyrian humans, the best race of the planet (only because we can tell that the others are even worse than us), the wisest, the .... humans from Tyria.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

You come off as a bit unhinged on this subject.

[Naxos.2503]

One of the most ironic situation in the game's lore is how humans are meant to be a race that is currently in a rough situation, having most of it's old empires destroyed, and it's gods silent. You'd expect the race to be dwindling, at the very least. Yet since players like them so much (for a reason I cannot understand, and that's okay), it flies completely against the lore, by having enough humans to dwarf all the remaining races in numbers.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

humans are also the best throwers of stuff of all species.

 

Stones, spears, balls... what we do with these things, no other species can do.

 

We are excellent long distance runners. Some argue, the best.

We are pretty good divers for land mammals.

Our eyes aren't bad compared to other mammals.

Humans are surprisingly tolerant to a lot of toxic/poisonous substances (caffeine being a prime example).

Humans have excellent real time close distance and mid range communcation abilities (long range a bit lacking).

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Fluffball.8307" said:

> > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > > @"Fluffball.8307" said:

> > > > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > > > As far as I was aware Ascalonian soldiers were perfectly capable of facing down one or more charr at the same time.

> > >

> > > Is that based on gw1 npcs, or book references, or? The game presents some individuals as being sort of non-earth-realistic heroes that are capable of defeating a nearly infinite number of "average" opponents. Devona or Rurik would fit that category.

> > >

> >

> > AKA Plot armour.

> >

> > I very much doubt your average human soldier could go one-on-one with an average Charr soldier. The size difference, the muscle, the natural weaponry etc etc.

> >

> >

>

> Ya that's kind of what I meant, humans are pretty obviously physically weaker. However plot armor often combines with the notion of heroes in fantasy settings. There is absolutely no way even the best swordsman in any land can take on more than two semi competent opponents at the same time, and yet every book or game has "heroes" doing that. If I remember right the notion of a hero was even a game concept in D&D.

>

> Devona was not only protected by the story but she was also intended to be a bit of a force that could slaughter charr.

 

You can actually look at the gear of the charr and humans in GW1 to get a better sense of why humans could be just as deadly as charr (if not more so). Most of the charr were ill-equipped, with what could liberally be described as "cloth armor." Even their best armor was full of holes and weak spots. By contrast, heroes like Rurik and Devona had full plate mail, making them walking tanks. So while an individual charr might be stronger than a human, that doesn't matter too much if the charr's head is already coming off because it's not well-defended.

 

So there's a significant gear difference between some of these races -- and the charr relied more on numbers (in the past) than they did on technology or equipment. Obviously for the mechanics of gameplay in GW2, all differences have been neutered. Think Soviet Russia vs. Nazi Germany -- the Soviets had numbers, the Nazis had tech and equipment.

 

**Edit**: For any moderators, I'm talking about history, ok? Don't penalize me.

 

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> One of the most ironic situation in the game's lore is how humans are meant to be a race that is currently in a rough situation, having most of it's old empires destroyed, and it's gods silent. You'd expect the race to be dwindling, at the very least. Yet since players like them so much (for a reason I cannot understand, and that's okay), it flies completely against the lore, by having enough humans to dwarf all the remaining races in numbers.

 

To be fair, the beginning of the campaign paints humans as being in decline, but it turns out they still have huge numbers nearly everywhere as the game has expanded. Kryta is the last major human bastion in central Tyria, but then you have almost all of Elona belonging to humans (and Awakened) still, and there's Canthans on the other side of the ocean. The "decline" is from kingdoms falling, not the species as a whole faltering. This isn't even mentioning all the rogue groups of humans running around, including the White Mantle, Pirates/Corsairs, Separatists, and more. Even Tarir is a human bastion, with the Exalted simply being magically modified humans, and the ghosts of Ascalon are magically preserved human spirits, albeit twisted ones.

[kasoki.5180]

First of all, I would suggest that you carefully read what I'm writing since you are severly missquoting me and attacking me with straw mens

 

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

 

> The statement of the OP was: " who would not be a problem if Humanity didn't exist". Is this TRUE or FALSE? Because:

> - If TRUE that means he is right, the humans and their gods were the seeds for some major disasters in the history.

> - If FALSE - why it is this statement FALSE?

>

 

I have explained why is it false. You can't ascribe guilt and liability by some form of historical proxy. Also, thats not what OP's statement was. Don't fudge conversation to prove a point.

 

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> So, you suggest that by taking the Ascalon back from the Charrs the humans brought justice? Are they the Scourge of the God? But even so, did they return the Ascalon back to the righteous owners? BTW - who were the entitled owners of Ascalon before Charrs?

>

 

I have never said they brought justice. Its just hypocritical and dishonest to target just humans and just theirs relationship to Ascalon.

Not sure what do you mean by "entitled owners" when you are talking of Ascalon. Territory doesnt have owners. Ascalon was under sovereignity of human Kingdom of Ascalon before charr.

 

 

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

 

> > To my knowledge there are four major environment changing events in Guild Wars - Creation of Crystal desert, Jade Winds, Searing of Ascalon and Rise of Zhaitan. None of those can be attributed to humans as civilization or culture, unlike Searing of Ascalon which is very much aspect of historical Charr culture.

>

> All the four major environment changing events are related and generated by humans and the human gods. Shortly:

> - The Creation of the Crystal Desert: The Margonites (the **human** followers of Abaddon - **a human god**) - were chassed and hunted by the Forgotten (presumably the **protectors** of the human race). Abaddon stepped into conflict and punished the Forgotten. Then the gods attacked Abaddon - the result of the warr was the Desert.

> - Jade Winds - is related with Shiro Tagachi. Another human.

> - Searing of Ascalon - generated by the human occupation of Ascalon. The Flame legion Shamans in an effort to take Ascalon back used magic from Titans.

> - Rise of Zhaitan - started by the human gods when splitting the magic and sealing it in the Bloodstones. They tapped into the dragon magic, being unaware of the Zhaitan presence.

>

> So, **all** of the events are generated by the humans and their presence in Tyria.

> >

 

I have said by **humans as civilisation**. There is a difference between individual and collective action. Thats why you don't attribute single murders to entire nation, but you do military invasions. Searing was commited as a part of collective, political effort. It was attempt from one nation(s) to conquer others via military means. Jade winds or Crystal desert were not. I hope you can understand difference between an official act committed by government and individual gruesome act.

 

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

>

> We are talking here about humans. Nothing about charrs. If you are so interested in charrs, please open another post.

>

 

Actually, you are applying double standards in order to prove that race X has attributes ABC while ignoring that other races have those very same attributes, thus meaning those attributes cannot be attested as uniquely human.

> >

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

 

> I don't see any relation between the human behavior in Tyria and the Movement of the World.

> As for the legions - Yes, indeed it was a civil warr. The charrs tried to free themselves from the slavery of the Flame Legions Shamans. The Shamans used magic gifted by the Titans in an effort to take back Ascalon (conquered by the **humans**). It is said that the Titans were controllable by the Scepter of Orr - a human gods creation. Also, the origin location of the Titans was the Foundry of Failed Creations - this place has been a prison for the Margonites (the Abaddon followers) ruled by the Forgotten - the human race "protectors". So, without humans and their gods even this civil war is questionable.

>

 

What you've said is completely unrelated to my post. Movement of the world clearly states that if not for ghosts High Legions would likely end up in a war against each other. It was to show how idea that of self destructive evil is equally applicable to Charr. So another point for double standards team.

 

 

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

 

> If you cannot see the influence of the gods in the human actions and hystory, then I cannot help you to see them. And again, this is a debate about humans and not charrs/sylvary/asura/norn. But **humans**

>

 

I have said **extreme** influence. And again. You are making statements about humans. You make those statements by analyzing certain events or figures and then attributing those behaviours as uniquely human. I am trying to show you how they are not uniquely human. They are quite general. Thats why you can't just exclude other races from this debate. You are making statements about humans while ignoring that basis for those statements is quite general and applicable to other races.

 

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

>

> This is a true pearl. We cannot prove we are not bad. But the others are bad too. So, by comparation we are not so bad. In fact, the others are even worse. That means we are in fact the good guys =). As an asura may say: "Priceless"

> This is a typical political rhetoric.

>

 

Again, not what I have said. I have never said that two wrongs make a right. I have said that it is a moot point to present something as human characteristic when it is so general.

 

Do you know what is a typical political rhetoric? Ignoring what other people have actually said and than attack arguments they never made

[Cristalyan.5728]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

>

> I have never said they brought justice. Its just hypocritical and dishonest to target just humans and just theirs relationship to Ascalon.

> Not sure what do you mean by "entitled owners" when you are talking of Ascalon. Territory doesnt have owners. Ascalon was under sovereignity of human Kingdom of Ascalon before charr.

>

 

This is enough for me to know that is useless to try to bring any rational argument - because is a waste of time. Because you can ignore even the history to sustain your position.

 

Please read what the history says about Ascalon:

"**The land known as Ascalon was originally claimed by the charr sometime before 100 BE**, though if they had any name for the region is not known. However, they were driven north into the region referred to as the Blood Legion Homelands by humans pushing north and east. The ongoing human-charr conflict lasted for around 1,100 years, culminating at the end of the Third Guild War when the human kingdom of Ascalon was all but destroyed by the charr shamans using magical cauldrons **granted to them by titans under orders of Abaddon, the fallen human god.** The event became known as the Searing, and it left all of Ascalon scorched and barren in 1070 AE. "

 

So, the Ascalon has been taken by the humans from the charrs.

Then a human god - Abaddon was the trigger for the searing.

 

[Narcemus.1348]

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> >

> > I have never said they brought justice. Its just hypocritical and dishonest to target just humans and just theirs relationship to Ascalon.

> > Not sure what do you mean by "entitled owners" when you are talking of Ascalon. Territory doesnt have owners. Ascalon was under sovereignity of human Kingdom of Ascalon before charr.

> >

>

> This is enough for me to know that is useless to try to bring any rational argument - because is a waste of time. Because you can ignore even the history to sustain your position.

>

> Please read what the history says about Ascalon:

> "**The land known as Ascalon was originally claimed by the charr sometime before 100 BE**, though if they had any name for the region is not known. However, they were driven north into the region referred to as the Blood Legion Homelands by humans pushing north and east. The ongoing human-charr conflict lasted for around 1,100 years, culminating at the end of the Third Guild War when the human kingdom of Ascalon was all but destroyed by the charr shamans using magical cauldrons **granted to them by titans under orders of Abaddon, the fallen human god.** The event became known as the Searing, and it left all of Ascalon scorched and barren in 1070 AE. "

>

> So, the Ascalon has been taken by the humans from the charrs.

> Then a human god - Abaddon was the trigger for the searing.

>

 

He is wrong, the humans did take Ascalon from the charr, but the point that the charr were just as bad comes from the fact that they did the exact same to it's previous owners.

 

" No longer clamoring over the same territories, the unified Charr spread throughout the northern reaches of their homeland, and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains. The Charr subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them within their territories; they were masters of all they surveyed."

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

 

Not sure what the debate is anymore, but I at least want all of the information to be correct.

[Cristalyan.5728]

> @"Narcemus.1348" said:

 

> He is wrong, the humans did take Ascalon from the charr, but the point that the charr were just as bad comes from the fact that they did the exact same to it's previous owners.

>

> " No longer clamoring over the same territories, the unified Charr spread throughout the northern reaches of their homeland, and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains. The Charr subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them within their territories; they were masters of all they surveyed."

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

>

> Not sure what the debate is anymore, but I at least want all of the information to be correct.

 

This is what the OP asked:

"And then i realised that humanity and the gods were the cause for at least Abbadon (**who would not be a problem if Humanity didn't exist**) and all the entailing things like Murassat, Titans, nightfall and so forth. Humanity caused all the Problems it "solved" (with a lot of help from other species)

My conclusion: Humanity (with some exceptions) is a cruel, stupid and childish species who relied on the gods to achieve anything of note, like robbing the Charr of Ascalon. Now that they are gone, humanity faces its deserved downfall. Maybe a more enlightened species can subjugate and redeem them.

**My question is: Do you think that humanity as depicted in Guild Wars 2 have positive qualities distinguishing them from others?"**

 

It was a question regarding the humans. Humans as depicted in the GW2 lore.

 

Not about charrs. Not about asura or sylvary. Not about Norn. But a question regarding the humans.

[Narcemus.1348]

I would say yes. Humanity did things in the name of it's Gods, sure, but if you had watched Balthazar consume the soul of a man he considered a coward, so would you. Humanity has taken a natural (rather than asuran scientific) understanding of magic to a new level. They have made friends, created alliances, brought new levels of technology in ways that the charr would not have. And seriously, would you blame the Norn if the Spirits of the Wild started causing cataclysms throughout Tyria? I know I wouldn't, which is why I do not blame the humans for the actions of their gods. Now you have my opinion, and my part in this debate is concluded.