Ziooo.8932 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Well, I got a good collection of "No necros" lfg prints throughout the last few years (both fractals and raids). Let's just say i never find this kind of thing with any other class. Of course I don't join these, but the class hate is just ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alehin.3746 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > all of this over a dps meter that anet should have never allowed to be used with the game in the first place. > Its suppose to help people not create conflict the things should just be ego meters because thats what the amount to. This toxicity exists since forever, DPS meters have nothing to do with it. All it does is show who is doing dps and who isn't, what people do with that information is their fault, not the tool's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrippa Oculus.3726 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 > @"vicious.5683" said: > It's been bad since the release of this game. Was the worst class in dungeons, then in fractals and now in raids too! > And every time we get a useful build, it gets nerfed into the ground. It's true, and I find it really weird that that's the case. I really don't understand. - Might it have to do with that the Necro has always been reasonably up to very good in PvP and WvW? So you balance it out, this way? - Is it a marketing thing? Always cater to the well-known archetypes: Fighter, Mage, Hunter (and in this case also their USP: Mesmer)? - Does ANet have a very small balance team, where subjectivity and group-think is more prone to happen (just no real Necro supporters in that team??) as opposed to larger teams with more different opinions and ideas? - Is it because the Necro's Look and Feel being so much more likeable than many other classes out there, which you then _have_ to compensate in other aspects (like skill balance), in order to keep the population at bay? Funny enough, a recent [poll](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33579/whats-your-main#latest) shows that there are a lot more Necro mains on this forum than any other class out there (it's really recent, so may not be _that_ thorough yet). If (BIG '**if**' here) that's a good representation of your full player base, it would mean that if you balance the Necro and make them optimal, you might create a very skewed online world with a lot of Necro's running around everywhere! I'm a good example of that one. I really like my Necro's look and feel, the Lore behind it, etc. But I hardly play it anymore, cause I found out that (in the PvE endgame, which I play the most lately) other classes are so much better at it, contributing to the overal fun of it as well! Would the Necro become optimal in Raids and T4 fractals I would definitely brush the dust of it and play it far more again! Not sure how many are the same like me in that matter, but this might create a very Necro-heavy PvE endgame environment. I can understand, ANet doesnt want that! All (quite far-fetched) assumptions of course, but the conclusion being that I _really_ don't have a clue at all, why that's the case. Would love to figure it out, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 > @"vicious.5683" said: > It's been bad since the release of this game. Was the worst class in dungeons, then in fractals and now in raids too! > And every time we get a useful build, it gets nerfed into the ground. > It is much less bad than before elite specializations and way, way better than 2012 so there is that going for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunTzu.4513 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 > Necro become optimal in Raids and T4 fractals I would definitely brush the dust of it and play it far more again! Imo the whole classhatething will be cool down if we would more viable in our roles. We don't need to be toptier but we need viability and constancy in pve content for a longer period of time and not only for a few weeks or an month in case of a bug like scourge. Imo the only step into the right direction would be if pve/pvp/wvw got complete splitted, but this is an other discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigfodr.9576 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Fracs: Good groups will generally be able to kill everything to fast for scourge/reaper (both condi btw) to be really usefull. But in less optimal groups its fine for. Raids: depends alot on the boss. For some bosses (like SH or Sab) scourge is meta pick nr. 1. For others (xera, cairn, and more) it is pretty good and atleast as good as any other class. And for some bosses it is... well not optimal but can be done. In both cases you will find pugs that either dont know how good scourge is or have experienced to many bad necro players. Now I am sure there are toons of bad players on all classes, but some classes have a tendency to have more of them, druid is one, necro another. Sad but how it is. If you actually know how to play scourge/reaper you will not have problems in a static, nomatter if your static is casual or speedrun. (then again if you have a speedrun static you will normally be the kind of player who also have more then one main) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > [GW2Raidar](https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/6), disclaimer: ignore anything that's under 0.20 popularity, cause those don't have a representative 'n' for it to be considered 'real' statistics (imo it has the same 'worth' as any anecdotal story on these forums that starts with: "Me and some of my guildies play ... because ..." :D or "This one time ..." or "Sometimes ...") Wow! I love the fact that there is a reaper build listed in the support area and have impressively no outgoing buff. Is it the mythical down rising reaper build? Man there is even a warrior "support build" that manage to have no outgoing buff!!!?? There is also this issue with raidar. Some players hide their low performance behind a supposed support build. And then there are the dps builds that have more support than the support builds... Raidar is a mess and like you said under 0.2 popularity it's not representative and the only representative necromancer's build is a scourge dps build that barely reach the minimum dps required in raid (between 12k and 15k dps). This site sadden me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerikajinn.4635 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > [GW2Raidar](https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/6), disclaimer: ignore anything that's under 0.20 popularity, cause those don't have a representative 'n' for it to be considered 'real' statistics (imo it has the same 'worth' as any anecdotal story on these forums that starts with: "Me and some of my guildies play ... because ..." :D or "This one time ..." or "Sometimes ...") > > Wow! I love the fact that there is a reaper build listed in the support area and have impressively no outgoing buff. Is it the mythical down rising reaper build? Man there is even a warrior "support build" that manage to have no outgoing buff!!!?? > > There is also this issue with raidar. Some players hide their low performance behind a supposed support build. And then there are the dps builds that have more support than the support builds... Raidar is a mess and like you said under 0.2 popularity it's not representative and the only representative necromancer's build is a scourge dps build that barely reach the minimum dps required in raid (between 12k and 15k dps). This site sadden me... Bearing in mind that tanks fall under supports, it's likely the Reaper build there was a tank focused one. As for some builds having more support than others the term support in this case is a bit more wide-reaching than gives buffs or heals people. Furthermore, your citing of 12k-15k dps implies you're evaluating all of this based on the "Global Stats for everything" section. Given that even the development team behind GW2Raidar have agreed that it needs to be changed (given that it lumps in damage from training golems, fractals and raids together), and have an update in the works to address this you'd be better off looking at the global stats for individual fights instead of everything. The global stats thing is a mess sure, but that's about the long and short of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 > @"Amerikajinn.4635" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > [GW2Raidar](https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/6), disclaimer: ignore anything that's under 0.20 popularity, cause those don't have a representative 'n' for it to be considered 'real' statistics (imo it has the same 'worth' as any anecdotal story on these forums that starts with: "Me and some of my guildies play ... because ..." :D or "This one time ..." or "Sometimes ...") > > > > Wow! I love the fact that there is a reaper build listed in the support area and have impressively no outgoing buff. Is it the mythical down rising reaper build? Man there is even a warrior "support build" that manage to have no outgoing buff!!!?? > > > > There is also this issue with raidar. Some players hide their low performance behind a supposed support build. And then there are the dps builds that have more support than the support builds... Raidar is a mess and like you said under 0.2 popularity it's not representative and the only representative necromancer's build is a scourge dps build that barely reach the minimum dps required in raid (between 12k and 15k dps). This site sadden me... > > Bearing in mind that tanks fall under supports, it's likely the Reaper build there was a tank focused one. As for some builds having more support than others the term support in this case is a bit more wide-reaching than gives buffs or heals people. > > Furthermore, your citing of 12k-15k dps implies you're evaluating all of this based on the "Global Stats for everything" section. Given that even the development team behind GW2Raidar have agreed that it needs to be changed (given that it lumps in damage from training golems, fractals and raids together), and have an update in the works to address this you'd be better off looking at the global stats for individual fights instead of everything. > > The global stats thing is a mess sure, but that's about the long and short of it. To "tank" in gw2, you just need a bit more toughness than your teammate. Having a low dps on a tanking profession with 0 extra output other than dps is just trying to justify personnal bad performance. You can understand low dps on a chronomancer that tank and spend most of it's ressource into boon duration but a necromancer which tank should have a dps which is very similar to that of a dps focused necromancer. This is just a matter of toughness, if it produce no extra then the low dps come from the player not the profession. As for the damage, 12k-15k is simply what you can read on the metrics given by raidar. If the metrics are false or not accurate, then they shouldn't even be given. 12k is given for damage on boss and 15k for cleaving damage. And it's because it lump in everything that those number mean anything, because it give you the proper idea of what you can expect from it. "Indivudual fight" give you the idea of what you can expect from a specific player to achieve with a specific build. The more data you lump together on a specific build, the more accurate your idea of what you can expect from this build will be. An individual fight will never be representative. So, If I should expect 10k dps from a reaper tank on a boss, I'd better ask the dps reaper to switch one or 2 trinkets so that it got a bit of toughness and tank while dealing 20k dps and grant vampiric presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 While I believe Necro is viable, it still does not have a "got to have it" group utility or top tier dps. The same problem still plagues Necro: Wanted - top tier dps and shareable dps buffs This includes boon sharing, desired combo fields, finishers, and special mechanics like Vampiric Presence Not wanted - debuffs resisted by Defiance and second tier, or lower, dps The formula is simple: Either bring top tier dps or utility that is not neutered by Defiance like so many Necro skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerikajinn.4635 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Amerikajinn.4635" said: > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > [GW2Raidar](https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/6), disclaimer: ignore anything that's under 0.20 popularity, cause those don't have a representative 'n' for it to be considered 'real' statistics (imo it has the same 'worth' as any anecdotal story on these forums that starts with: "Me and some of my guildies play ... because ..." :D or "This one time ..." or "Sometimes ...") > > > > > > Wow! I love the fact that there is a reaper build listed in the support area and have impressively no outgoing buff. Is it the mythical down rising reaper build? Man there is even a warrior "support build" that manage to have no outgoing buff!!!?? > > > > > > There is also this issue with raidar. Some players hide their low performance behind a supposed support build. And then there are the dps builds that have more support than the support builds... Raidar is a mess and like you said under 0.2 popularity it's not representative and the only representative necromancer's build is a scourge dps build that barely reach the minimum dps required in raid (between 12k and 15k dps). This site sadden me... > > > > Bearing in mind that tanks fall under supports, it's likely the Reaper build there was a tank focused one. As for some builds having more support than others the term support in this case is a bit more wide-reaching than gives buffs or heals people. > > > > Furthermore, your citing of 12k-15k dps implies you're evaluating all of this based on the "Global Stats for everything" section. Given that even the development team behind GW2Raidar have agreed that it needs to be changed (given that it lumps in damage from training golems, fractals and raids together), and have an update in the works to address this you'd be better off looking at the global stats for individual fights instead of everything. > > > > The global stats thing is a mess sure, but that's about the long and short of it. > > To "tank" in gw2, you just need a bit more toughness than your teammate. Having a low dps on a tanking profession with 0 extra output other than dps is just trying to justify personnal bad performance. You can understand low dps on a chronomancer that tank and spend most of it's ressource into boon duration but a necromancer which tank should have a dps which is very similar to that of a dps focused necromancer. This is just a matter of toughness, if it produce no extra then the low dps come from the player not the profession. The issue here is that while you indeed would only need a bit more toughness than one's teammate, over a wide variety of cases you would have situations where allies may have quite a lot of toughness that you would need to outmatch, to the detriment of your offensive stats. Sure, in the instance of a condi Reaper tank you can go full trailblazers and still have the same amount of condi duration and condi damage, but not only do you lose out on power and crit chance, the role itself lends less to "shroud dancing" to hit ice fields. Power Reaper suffers the same way, due to losing ferocity and crit chance if you were to focus on more toughness, and before 50% hp is gone you need shroud to deal the largest part of your damage (and staying in shroud as a tank can be impractical; though not impossible). > > As for the damage, 12k-15k is simply what you can read on the metrics given by raidar. If the metrics are false or not accurate, then they shouldn't even be given. 12k is given for damage on boss and 15k for cleaving damage. And it's because it lump in everything that those number mean anything, because it give you the proper idea of what you can expect from it. "Indivudual fight" give you the idea of what you can expect from a specific player to achieve with a specific build. > The more data you lump together on a specific build, the more accurate your idea of what you can expect from this build will be. An individual fight will never be representative. The problem with lumping all of the data together is that it doesn't paint a clear picture, the only number that really does is popularity at this point. Due to the differences between the training golem, fractals and raids in terms of how much damage you gain from the likes of guaranteed 100% boon uptime for training golem and fractal pots for fractals, the expected dps can warp quite a bit. That's why if you really want an idea of what it will be able to do you narrow down your selection to an individual encounter so all logs there are relevant to the statistics you're looking at; and if it means you don't get specific data due to it not being a popular choice then so be it, use the global stats as a baseline for that encounter, just don't apply that logic to every encounter in the game. > > So, If I should expect 10k dps from a reaper tank on a boss, I'd better ask the dps reaper to switch one or 2 trinkets so that it got a bit of toughness and tank while dealing 20k dps and grant vampiric presence. As I elaborated on before, Reaper loses more damage in the tank role than just losing offensive stats. In any given build for Reaper being in shroud will offer some kind of dps increase at some point in the fight, if you're taking the focuse damage from a boss you're unlikely to be able to maintain shroud to do as much dps as you would normally. 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Dadnir.5038 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 > @"Amerikajinn.4635" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"Amerikajinn.4635" said: > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > [GW2Raidar](https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/6), disclaimer: ignore anything that's under 0.20 popularity, cause those don't have a representative 'n' for it to be considered 'real' statistics (imo it has the same 'worth' as any anecdotal story on these forums that starts with: "Me and some of my guildies play ... because ..." :D or "This one time ..." or "Sometimes ...") > > > > > > > > Wow! I love the fact that there is a reaper build listed in the support area and have impressively no outgoing buff. Is it the mythical down rising reaper build? Man there is even a warrior "support build" that manage to have no outgoing buff!!!?? > > > > > > > > There is also this issue with raidar. Some players hide their low performance behind a supposed support build. And then there are the dps builds that have more support than the support builds... Raidar is a mess and like you said under 0.2 popularity it's not representative and the only representative necromancer's build is a scourge dps build that barely reach the minimum dps required in raid (between 12k and 15k dps). This site sadden me... > > > > > > Bearing in mind that tanks fall under supports, it's likely the Reaper build there was a tank focused one. As for some builds having more support than others the term support in this case is a bit more wide-reaching than gives buffs or heals people. > > > > > > Furthermore, your citing of 12k-15k dps implies you're evaluating all of this based on the "Global Stats for everything" section. Given that even the development team behind GW2Raidar have agreed that it needs to be changed (given that it lumps in damage from training golems, fractals and raids together), and have an update in the works to address this you'd be better off looking at the global stats for individual fights instead of everything. > > > > > > The global stats thing is a mess sure, but that's about the long and short of it. > > > > To "tank" in gw2, you just need a bit more toughness than your teammate. Having a low dps on a tanking profession with 0 extra output other than dps is just trying to justify personnal bad performance. You can understand low dps on a chronomancer that tank and spend most of it's ressource into boon duration but a necromancer which tank should have a dps which is very similar to that of a dps focused necromancer. This is just a matter of toughness, if it produce no extra then the low dps come from the player not the profession. > > The issue here is that while you indeed would only need a bit more toughness than one's teammate, over a wide variety of cases you would have situations where allies may have quite a lot of toughness that you would need to outmatch, to the detriment of your offensive stats. Sure, in the instance of a condi Reaper tank you can go full trailblazers and still have the same amount of condi duration and condi damage, but not only do you lose out on power and crit chance, the role itself lends less to "shroud dancing" to hit ice fields. Power Reaper suffers the same way, due to losing ferocity and crit chance if you were to focus on more toughness, and before 50% hp is gone you need shroud to deal the largest part of your damage (and staying in shroud as a tank can be impractical; though not impossible). > > > > > As for the damage, 12k-15k is simply what you can read on the metrics given by raidar. If the metrics are false or not accurate, then they shouldn't even be given. 12k is given for damage on boss and 15k for cleaving damage. And it's because it lump in everything that those number mean anything, because it give you the proper idea of what you can expect from it. "Indivudual fight" give you the idea of what you can expect from a specific player to achieve with a specific build. > > > The more data you lump together on a specific build, the more accurate your idea of what you can expect from this build will be. An individual fight will never be representative. > > The problem with lumping all of the data together is that it doesn't paint a clear picture, the only number that really does is popularity at this point. Due to the differences between the training golem, fractals and raids in terms of how much damage you gain from the likes of guaranteed 100% boon uptime for training golem and fractal pots for fractals, the expected dps can warp quite a bit. That's why if you really want an idea of what it will be able to do you narrow down your selection to an individual encounter so all logs there are relevant to the statistics you're looking at; and if it means you don't get specific data due to it not being a popular choice then so be it, use the global stats as a baseline for that encounter, just don't apply that logic to every encounter in the game. > > > > So, If I should expect 10k dps from a reaper tank on a boss, I'd better ask the dps reaper to switch one or 2 trinkets so that it got a bit of toughness and tank while dealing 20k dps and grant vampiric presence. > > As I elaborated on before, Reaper loses more damage in the tank role than just losing offensive stats. In any given build for Reaper being in shroud will offer some kind of dps increase at some point in the fight, if you're taking the focuse damage from a boss you're unlikely to be able to maintain shroud to do as much dps as you would normally. > Well from what I've read, you've only said that reaper lose damage when he tank because other take toughness. Who would equip some toughness on their gear if not the tank? I agree that you can't control everyone and there might be a need to have a bit more toughness than necessary in PuGs, but honnestly, to tank, you do not need a lot of toughness. You do not need a full toughness based gear to tank. If it's needed then it's a problem that come from the other players and it mean that they are reducing the effectivness of the raid. Strictly speaking, theoretically, a power reaper should be able to pull out 20k dps while tanking, just replacing 2 of it's zerk trinckets by 2 knight trinckets giving them 300 extra toughness while losing a bit of power and ferocity. If another player in your raid happen to have more than 300 toughness on it's traits and gear then this player whatever it's profession is an issue because he step on a role which is out of it's boundaries. Whatever happen, it's not logical to purposedly lose effectiveness for the sake of the possibility that another player might have to much toughness and out tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerikajinn.4635 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Amerikajinn.4635" said: > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > @"Amerikajinn.4635" said: > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > [GW2Raidar](https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/6), disclaimer: ignore anything that's under 0.20 popularity, cause those don't have a representative 'n' for it to be considered 'real' statistics (imo it has the same 'worth' as any anecdotal story on these forums that starts with: "Me and some of my guildies play ... because ..." :D or "This one time ..." or "Sometimes ...") > > > > > > > > > > Wow! I love the fact that there is a reaper build listed in the support area and have impressively no outgoing buff. Is it the mythical down rising reaper build? Man there is even a warrior "support build" that manage to have no outgoing buff!!!?? > > > > > > > > > > There is also this issue with raidar. Some players hide their low performance behind a supposed support build. And then there are the dps builds that have more support than the support builds... Raidar is a mess and like you said under 0.2 popularity it's not representative and the only representative necromancer's build is a scourge dps build that barely reach the minimum dps required in raid (between 12k and 15k dps). This site sadden me... > > > > > > > > Bearing in mind that tanks fall under supports, it's likely the Reaper build there was a tank focused one. As for some builds having more support than others the term support in this case is a bit more wide-reaching than gives buffs or heals people. > > > > > > > > Furthermore, your citing of 12k-15k dps implies you're evaluating all of this based on the "Global Stats for everything" section. Given that even the development team behind GW2Raidar have agreed that it needs to be changed (given that it lumps in damage from training golems, fractals and raids together), and have an update in the works to address this you'd be better off looking at the global stats for individual fights instead of everything. > > > > > > > > The global stats thing is a mess sure, but that's about the long and short of it. > > > > > > To "tank" in gw2, you just need a bit more toughness than your teammate. Having a low dps on a tanking profession with 0 extra output other than dps is just trying to justify personnal bad performance. You can understand low dps on a chronomancer that tank and spend most of it's ressource into boon duration but a necromancer which tank should have a dps which is very similar to that of a dps focused necromancer. This is just a matter of toughness, if it produce no extra then the low dps come from the player not the profession. > > > > The issue here is that while you indeed would only need a bit more toughness than one's teammate, over a wide variety of cases you would have situations where allies may have quite a lot of toughness that you would need to outmatch, to the detriment of your offensive stats. Sure, in the instance of a condi Reaper tank you can go full trailblazers and still have the same amount of condi duration and condi damage, but not only do you lose out on power and crit chance, the role itself lends less to "shroud dancing" to hit ice fields. Power Reaper suffers the same way, due to losing ferocity and crit chance if you were to focus on more toughness, and before 50% hp is gone you need shroud to deal the largest part of your damage (and staying in shroud as a tank can be impractical; though not impossible). > > > > > > > > As for the damage, 12k-15k is simply what you can read on the metrics given by raidar. If the metrics are false or not accurate, then they shouldn't even be given. 12k is given for damage on boss and 15k for cleaving damage. And it's because it lump in everything that those number mean anything, because it give you the proper idea of what you can expect from it. "Indivudual fight" give you the idea of what you can expect from a specific player to achieve with a specific build. > > > > > The more data you lump together on a specific build, the more accurate your idea of what you can expect from this build will be. An individual fight will never be representative. > > > > The problem with lumping all of the data together is that it doesn't paint a clear picture, the only number that really does is popularity at this point. Due to the differences between the training golem, fractals and raids in terms of how much damage you gain from the likes of guaranteed 100% boon uptime for training golem and fractal pots for fractals, the expected dps can warp quite a bit. That's why if you really want an idea of what it will be able to do you narrow down your selection to an individual encounter so all logs there are relevant to the statistics you're looking at; and if it means you don't get specific data due to it not being a popular choice then so be it, use the global stats as a baseline for that encounter, just don't apply that logic to every encounter in the game. > > > > > > So, If I should expect 10k dps from a reaper tank on a boss, I'd better ask the dps reaper to switch one or 2 trinkets so that it got a bit of toughness and tank while dealing 20k dps and grant vampiric presence. > > > > As I elaborated on before, Reaper loses more damage in the tank role than just losing offensive stats. In any given build for Reaper being in shroud will offer some kind of dps increase at some point in the fight, if you're taking the focuse damage from a boss you're unlikely to be able to maintain shroud to do as much dps as you would normally. > > > > Well from what I've read, you've only said that reaper lose damage when he tank because other take toughness. Who would equip some toughness on their gear if not the tank? I agree that you can't control everyone and there might be a need to have a bit more toughness than necessary in PuGs, but honnestly, to tank, you do not need a lot of toughness. You do not need a full toughness based gear to tank. If it's needed then it's a problem that come from the other players and it mean that they are reducing the effectivness of the raid. > > Strictly speaking, theoretically, a power reaper should be able to pull out 20k dps while tanking, just replacing 2 of it's zerk trinckets by 2 knight trinckets giving them 300 extra toughness while losing a bit of power and ferocity. If another player in your raid happen to have more than 300 toughness on it's traits and gear then this player whatever it's profession is an issue because he step on a role which is out of it's boundaries. > > Whatever happen, it's not logical to purposedly lose effectiveness for the sake of the possibility that another player might have to much toughness and out tank. That is not what I said at all. While I did mention that you may in some cases have to take more toughness depending on allies (as not every situation will be the same), even if you can get by with the bare minimum of toughness as a tank you're still going to have far less shroud uptime for earlier parts of a fight due to taking more damage. As a tank you will always be the target of a given bosses attacks, and aegis and protection can only do so much. While this certainly would be less of a problem after you pass the 50% hp mark of a fight you still have the other half of the fight to contend with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Forgive me if this has been mentioned already. Properly tanking requires more than just Toughness (aggro control). It also requires Stability, some invulnerability skills, stun breaks, and an ability to clear movement-impairing conditions. A tank's job is to consistently control boss positioning as well as maintaining hate, not just being a punching bag. If you take a knock-back or dodge without re-closing the gap right away and the boss follows, you are not in enough control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > all of this over a dps meter that anet should have never allowed to be used with the game in the first place. > > Its suppose to help people not create conflict the things should just be ego meters because thats what the amount to. > > This toxicity exists since forever, DPS meters have nothing to do with it. All it does is show who is doing dps and who isn't, what people do with that information is their fault, not the tool's. Yes toxicity exist in every game its an online thing that happens however.... Toxicity to this level is unacceptable. I still say DPS meter mods certainly have something to do with it in this day and age. To say they dont at all is being out right ignorant when all people do is toss numbers back and forth that balance should be based on. The only con necro had before was that it was selfish. Now its like playing x and y only does this amount of damage at best sorry we dont want you. If it effects such a large portion of the open community thats a direct cause and effect of the acceptance of said dps tools and you cant ignore that. If it was something that happened say once out of ever 20 times thats fine. If it happens 15 of 20 times thats just not acceptable. If even so well maybe the profession is just meant for pvp but then the community hates you there too because the profession is too good in 1 game type. Its a very problematic situation that anet has still yet to fix sense the acceptance of dps checkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhaid Zhem.6508 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 One trouble with (power) reaper in fractals: you can't get heal while in shroud, shroud falls far too fast now if you're taking dmg. Okai it's an easy to stand up build, but if you're doing same or better than your friends in an instance idk if it was the relevant class to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alehin.3746 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > all of this over a dps meter that anet should have never allowed to be used with the game in the first place. > > > Its suppose to help people not create conflict the things should just be ego meters because thats what the amount to. > > > > This toxicity exists since forever, DPS meters have nothing to do with it. All it does is show who is doing dps and who isn't, what people do with that information is their fault, not the tool's. > > Yes toxicity exist in every game its an online thing that happens however.... > Toxicity to this level is unacceptable. > I still say DPS meter mods certainly have something to do with it in this day and age. To say they dont at all is being out right ignorant when all people do is toss numbers back and forth that balance should be based on. The only con necro had before was that it was selfish. Now its like playing x and y only does this amount of damage at best sorry we dont want you. If it effects such a large portion of the open community thats a direct cause and effect of the acceptance of said dps tools and you cant ignore that. > > If it was something that happened say once out of ever 20 times thats fine. If it happens 15 of 20 times thats just not acceptable. > > If even so well maybe the profession is just meant for pvp but then the community hates you there too because the profession is too good in 1 game type. Its a very problematic situation that anet has still yet to fix sense the acceptance of dps checkers. You're blaming the knife for the murder. It's just a tool, if it didn't exist people would still point fingers and talk shit. If you don't want to deal with shitty people, stay away from them, toxicity isn't going to be fixed by removing DPS meters, it would cause more harm to people that use it properly than anything else. The only difference betwen toxicity with DPS meters and without is that they "know who to blame", instead of just going for the person with the least AP or with the least popular profession/build. This happened earlier.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix the One.4071 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 If you take blood magic you heal with your 4. If you spec for it you heal when above 10% lifeforce or gaining a boon, not much, but still there :) My cents with no experience from this game but from other more competetive games, is: Randoms stick to meta, cause meta is safe. Good -> great players (my friends, unfortunately not me) make or break meta for fun, challenge or because they actually sees a benefit. If they still cared for GW2 I am sure they would let me use my power reaper :D And I am sure they might try to use one aswell just to fuck up the meta. But sometimes meta is there for a reason, it is sometimes the Most Effective/Efficient Tactical Approch. But more often it is just a guiding star, but it is hard to run from the Benchmarks in a dps race.. also Reapers can bring a lot of healing, just not as much as say druids or guardians. But find a guild, play your reaper or svourge, learn every bits of it, develop muscle memory when playing, and then well then I think you can make it happen :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > all of this over a dps meter that anet should have never allowed to be used with the game in the first place. > > > > Its suppose to help people not create conflict the things should just be ego meters because thats what the amount to. > > > > > > This toxicity exists since forever, DPS meters have nothing to do with it. All it does is show who is doing dps and who isn't, what people do with that information is their fault, not the tool's. > > > > Yes toxicity exist in every game its an online thing that happens however.... > > Toxicity to this level is unacceptable. > > I still say DPS meter mods certainly have something to do with it in this day and age. To say they dont at all is being out right ignorant when all people do is toss numbers back and forth that balance should be based on. The only con necro had before was that it was selfish. Now its like playing x and y only does this amount of damage at best sorry we dont want you. If it effects such a large portion of the open community thats a direct cause and effect of the acceptance of said dps tools and you cant ignore that. > > > > If it was something that happened say once out of ever 20 times thats fine. If it happens 15 of 20 times thats just not acceptable. > > > > If even so well maybe the profession is just meant for pvp but then the community hates you there too because the profession is too good in 1 game type. Its a very problematic situation that anet has still yet to fix sense the acceptance of dps checkers. > > You're blaming the knife for the murder. It's just a tool, if it didn't exist people would still point fingers and talk kitten. If you don't want to deal with kitten people, stay away from them, toxicity isn't going to be fixed by removing DPS meters, it would cause more harm to people that use it properly than anything else. > The only difference betwen toxicity with DPS meters and without is that they "know who to blame", instead of just going for the person with the least AP or with the least popular profession/build. > > This happened earlier. >  > First of all ^ wow lol. I mean thats a new one. I wouldnt say its blaming the knife for the murder. More like what im saying is person armed with said knife is alot more bold and brave to put it to your throat and take action opposed to if he had never had the knife at all. Im not saying abuse never happens in the game. But having those tools giving more direct information to people made people more likely to do toxic abuse because they have more incentive to do so. Thats just fact no matter how you try to twist it. Overall what still gets me is that people can often take just about anything and still complete the content yet always must have best of best Ill never understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigfodr.9576 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > First of all ^ wow lol. I mean thats a new one. > > I wouldnt say its blaming the knife for the murder. > > More like what im saying is person armed with said knife is alot more bold and brave to put it to your throat and take action opposed to if he had never had the knife at all. > > Im not saying abuse never happens in the game. > But having those tools giving more direct information to people made people more likely to do toxic abuse because they have more incentive to do so. > Thats just fact no matter how you try to twist it. > > Overall what still gets me is that people can often take just about anything and still complete the content yet always must have best of best > Ill never understand it. > The thing is, with a dps meter you have the chance to bring something less commen and prove that you are worth to bring. Without one you will always be the one to be blamed if the group fail. And sometimes it can be very nice to have a dps meter to fast track down the "problem" in the group. That can be a weaver doing 2k dps, when the other dps'ers do 20k+ (I have seen this) or a dps war doing less dps then the full heal temp (again, I have seen this). Sure if the players are good, they can bring more or less any build. But 99% of the time a good player will know the fight well enough the the class they come on well enough that even the "snowflake" build they choose to bring is more "meta" then many other builds. It might be a dps chrono, not a meta build, but if played right its a darn good build that can do alot of dmg. On the other hand you will see less skilled players who dont quite understand the class they play come on another "snowflake" build and be worthless. A few ex. that I have seen are people joining VG and bringing condi cleanse, no condis at VG... If you know your class and the fight, you will know what to bring to be usefull and any class can easily be used at any boss. You might not get a speed clear time, but thats less importent. If you are less ex. on the other hand, it will be easyer to bring a meta build since these generally preform well. Scourge is meta at several of the bosses btw. And very close to meta at several others. It is mainly at "nuke him" bosses that it is not, so KC and Gors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alehin.3746 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > all of this over a dps meter that anet should have never allowed to be used with the game in the first place. > > > > > Its suppose to help people not create conflict the things should just be ego meters because thats what the amount to. > > > > > > > > This toxicity exists since forever, DPS meters have nothing to do with it. All it does is show who is doing dps and who isn't, what people do with that information is their fault, not the tool's. > > > > > > Yes toxicity exist in every game its an online thing that happens however.... > > > Toxicity to this level is unacceptable. > > > I still say DPS meter mods certainly have something to do with it in this day and age. To say they dont at all is being out right ignorant when all people do is toss numbers back and forth that balance should be based on. The only con necro had before was that it was selfish. Now its like playing x and y only does this amount of damage at best sorry we dont want you. If it effects such a large portion of the open community thats a direct cause and effect of the acceptance of said dps tools and you cant ignore that. > > > > > > If it was something that happened say once out of ever 20 times thats fine. If it happens 15 of 20 times thats just not acceptable. > > > > > > If even so well maybe the profession is just meant for pvp but then the community hates you there too because the profession is too good in 1 game type. Its a very problematic situation that anet has still yet to fix sense the acceptance of dps checkers. > > > > You're blaming the knife for the murder. It's just a tool, if it didn't exist people would still point fingers and talk kitten. If you don't want to deal with kitten people, stay away from them, toxicity isn't going to be fixed by removing DPS meters, it would cause more harm to people that use it properly than anything else. > > The only difference betwen toxicity with DPS meters and without is that they "know who to blame", instead of just going for the person with the least AP or with the least popular profession/build. > > > > This happened earlier. > >  > > > First of all ^ wow lol. I mean thats a new one. > > I wouldnt say its blaming the knife for the murder. > > More like what im saying is person armed with said knife is alot more bold and brave to put it to your throat and take action opposed to if he had never had the knife at all. > > Im not saying abuse never happens in the game. > But having those tools giving more direct information to people made people more likely to do toxic abuse because they have more incentive to do so. > Thats just fact no matter how you try to twist it. That's not a fact. DPS meters help you prove it's not your fault for playing X or Y. Theres a massive difference betwen "this trash necro is only doing 30k dps, wtf" to "necro, you're doing 1k dps, can you please leave?". The second case is not toxicity. When i start an EXP raid i expect people to do most mechanics correctly and have enough dps to kill before time runs out and i don't want to struggle any more than that because one or two people in the squad can't pull their own weight. Getting a kill and having fun are my main goals while raiding, not carrying people that clearly aren't prepared for the raid. That's why i teach and practice with my friends, so they have a good time when raiding instead of getting hate for joining EXP squads as double staff soldier minion necro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > all of this over a dps meter that anet should have never allowed to be used with the game in the first place. > > > > > > Its suppose to help people not create conflict the things should just be ego meters because thats what the amount to. > > > > > > > > > > This toxicity exists since forever, DPS meters have nothing to do with it. All it does is show who is doing dps and who isn't, what people do with that information is their fault, not the tool's. > > > > > > > > Yes toxicity exist in every game its an online thing that happens however.... > > > > Toxicity to this level is unacceptable. > > > > I still say DPS meter mods certainly have something to do with it in this day and age. To say they dont at all is being out right ignorant when all people do is toss numbers back and forth that balance should be based on. The only con necro had before was that it was selfish. Now its like playing x and y only does this amount of damage at best sorry we dont want you. If it effects such a large portion of the open community thats a direct cause and effect of the acceptance of said dps tools and you cant ignore that. > > > > > > > > If it was something that happened say once out of ever 20 times thats fine. If it happens 15 of 20 times thats just not acceptable. > > > > > > > > If even so well maybe the profession is just meant for pvp but then the community hates you there too because the profession is too good in 1 game type. Its a very problematic situation that anet has still yet to fix sense the acceptance of dps checkers. > > > > > > You're blaming the knife for the murder. It's just a tool, if it didn't exist people would still point fingers and talk kitten. If you don't want to deal with kitten people, stay away from them, toxicity isn't going to be fixed by removing DPS meters, it would cause more harm to people that use it properly than anything else. > > > The only difference betwen toxicity with DPS meters and without is that they "know who to blame", instead of just going for the person with the least AP or with the least popular profession/build. > > > > > > This happened earlier. > > >  > > > > > First of all ^ wow lol. I mean thats a new one. > > > > I wouldnt say its blaming the knife for the murder. > > > > More like what im saying is person armed with said knife is alot more bold and brave to put it to your throat and take action opposed to if he had never had the knife at all. > > > > Im not saying abuse never happens in the game. > > But having those tools giving more direct information to people made people more likely to do toxic abuse because they have more incentive to do so. > > Thats just fact no matter how you try to twist it. > > That's not a fact. DPS meters help you prove it's not your fault for playing X or Y. Theres a massive difference betwen "this trash necro is only doing 30k dps, kitten" to "necro, you're doing 1k dps, can you please leave?". The second case is not toxicity. When i start an EXP raid i expect people to do most mechanics correctly and have enough dps to kill before time runs out and i don't want to struggle any more than that because one or two people in the squad can't pull their own weight. Getting a kill and having fun are my main goals while raiding, not carrying people that clearly aren't prepared for the raid. That's why i teach and practice with my friends, so they have a good time when raiding instead of getting hate for joining EXP squads as double staff soldier minion necro. > Prove its not you fault usually? Usually the toxicity comes before the playing does so there is no attempt to even prove things. thats said if the person is given a chance to play and people are willing to give helpful feed back then thats fine thats perfect use of a dps meter. If some one is doing 5k because they dont know how to run traits right or do a rotation right then its fixed with some feedback thats all fine and dandy. However going "You are a reaper necro... go home pls" Before anything even starts is not acceptable. There will always be new people in raids and simply telling them to go home is pretty effed up. Everyone has to learn new tech. Even people who raid all the time and speed clear in less than 5 minutes likely were shit at it the first 10 times they tried it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alehin.3746 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > > all of this over a dps meter that anet should have never allowed to be used with the game in the first place. > > > > > > > Its suppose to help people not create conflict the things should just be ego meters because thats what the amount to. > > > > > > > > > > > > This toxicity exists since forever, DPS meters have nothing to do with it. All it does is show who is doing dps and who isn't, what people do with that information is their fault, not the tool's. > > > > > > > > > > Yes toxicity exist in every game its an online thing that happens however.... > > > > > Toxicity to this level is unacceptable. > > > > > I still say DPS meter mods certainly have something to do with it in this day and age. To say they dont at all is being out right ignorant when all people do is toss numbers back and forth that balance should be based on. The only con necro had before was that it was selfish. Now its like playing x and y only does this amount of damage at best sorry we dont want you. If it effects such a large portion of the open community thats a direct cause and effect of the acceptance of said dps tools and you cant ignore that. > > > > > > > > > > If it was something that happened say once out of ever 20 times thats fine. If it happens 15 of 20 times thats just not acceptable. > > > > > > > > > > If even so well maybe the profession is just meant for pvp but then the community hates you there too because the profession is too good in 1 game type. Its a very problematic situation that anet has still yet to fix sense the acceptance of dps checkers. > > > > > > > > You're blaming the knife for the murder. It's just a tool, if it didn't exist people would still point fingers and talk kitten. If you don't want to deal with kitten people, stay away from them, toxicity isn't going to be fixed by removing DPS meters, it would cause more harm to people that use it properly than anything else. > > > > The only difference betwen toxicity with DPS meters and without is that they "know who to blame", instead of just going for the person with the least AP or with the least popular profession/build. > > > > > > > > This happened earlier. > > > >  > > > > > > > First of all ^ wow lol. I mean thats a new one. > > > > > > I wouldnt say its blaming the knife for the murder. > > > > > > More like what im saying is person armed with said knife is alot more bold and brave to put it to your throat and take action opposed to if he had never had the knife at all. > > > > > > Im not saying abuse never happens in the game. > > > But having those tools giving more direct information to people made people more likely to do toxic abuse because they have more incentive to do so. > > > Thats just fact no matter how you try to twist it. > > > > That's not a fact. DPS meters help you prove it's not your fault for playing X or Y. Theres a massive difference betwen "this trash necro is only doing 30k dps, kitten" to "necro, you're doing 1k dps, can you please leave?". The second case is not toxicity. When i start an EXP raid i expect people to do most mechanics correctly and have enough dps to kill before time runs out and i don't want to struggle any more than that because one or two people in the squad can't pull their own weight. Getting a kill and having fun are my main goals while raiding, not carrying people that clearly aren't prepared for the raid. That's why i teach and practice with my friends, so they have a good time when raiding instead of getting hate for joining EXP squads as double staff soldier minion necro. > > > > Prove its not you fault usually? > Usually the toxicity comes before the playing does so there is no attempt to even prove things. > > thats said if the person is given a chance to play and people are willing to give helpful feed back then thats fine thats perfect use of a dps meter. If some one is doing 5k because they dont know how to run traits right or do a rotation right then its fixed with some feedback thats all fine and dandy. > > However going "You are a reaper necro... go home pls" Before anything even starts is not acceptable. This rarely happen nowadays. Scourge and even reaper are pretty good, they're usually refused in fights like Keep Construct and gorseval because you need burst damage. There will always be new people in raids and simply telling them to go home is pretty effed up. Everyone has to learn new tech. Even people who raid all the time and speed clear in less than 5 minutes likely were kitten at it the first 10 times they tried it. This rarely happen nowadays. Scourge and even reaper are pretty good, they're usually refused in fights like Keep Construct and gorseval because the team needs power damage, not condi. Also if noobies join an EXP raid and think they can do it, they are in the wrong. Trying high level things when you have no idea of what is going on isn't productive and you're also wasting other people's time. Yeah, being rude to newbies is bad, thats why henever people do that in my group i explain to them why they can't stay and give them a discord for training raids and wish them good luck. Being toxic and talking shit just because someone is doing 25k dps instead of 26k is stupid, but expecting people to do their job isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methuselah.4376 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 If find the DPS meter to sometimes work in my favor when I am running T4 on my power reaper and often maintain top dps over weavers and holosmiths. It shows them that while necro might not have the highest damage ceiling, it still does well if handled by a good player. And it comes as an extra surprise when they realize that I am running power reaper. Reaper shines best with cleave damage and I have been able to outdo even Scourges when it comes to cleaving (Grasping Darkness is beautiful for this). Scourge takes a tad long than power reaper to get going but once the steam is up the damage can go very high. Honestly, I don't find the point of condi reaper with the introduction of scourge; the build has been nerfed quite badly now and you also have to consider that you have to rely on chill fields for most of your damage, which is not always realistic. Scourge may suffer against highly mobile enemies but so would a condi reaper. Thing is, I find a lot of people have a black and white mentality: if it doesn't do top dps then it is trash; if it ranked lowest in benchmarks, then it is useless. Thing is, for most content under raids, 10-15k is considered very good damage (I don't raid but I have been told for most bosses 15k is still considered decent) and the good thing about a necro is that it is easily able to reach that damage. I tried doing T4s with my Weaver...I was HORRIBLE! The rotation is so complicated. But a scourge's/reaper's build is straightforward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alehin.3746 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 So far, necro is one of the most picked dps classes on [Mightyteapot's "ERP" raid tournament.]( "https://twitch.tv/mightyteapot") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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