Updated Charr command core instance hint towards living story?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086

> > Unless ArenaNet completely changes the set up they've established over the past four years, I don't see us ending our climactic battles in a LW Season. Ever. Regardless of timespan of releases.

>

> Mmmmm, I don’t t know Konig, beating Scarlet on the Breachmaker surrounded by a destroyed Lions Arch was a pretty cinematic battle and that was after the crazy events that turned the city into a battlefield. Even if the devs were unsure if they were going to doing living updates or an expansion. They could change the formula up, so they don’t fall into patterns,like how they changed things up for Path of Fire.

>

> Guess time will tell.

 

Wow. Did you not even read my post? I make it pretty fucking obvious that I'm talking about **once they started making expansions**. E.g., Season 2 and onward.

 

Season 1 is the exception. Not the rule. And it's an exception that ArenaNet has made pretty clear is not going to be occurring again in any form - from temporary nature to altering open world heavily, and by all accounts, even to being the closure of a main plot.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> Except that's blatantly untrue, as the path to the desert highland Nomads isn't in any way affected by the branded. The nomads live out in the salt flats outside Makali Outpost, which isn't being harassed by the Branded. And there is still easy access to all the other Desert Highland communities as well. Also, the books say a lot of things that are no longer true, like Kralkatorik having flesh, instead of being a giant rock monster.

 

Ghosts of Ascalon doesn't involve Kralkatorrik. You're thinking of Edge of Destiny there. I was referring to the bit where Kranxx makes a snark remark about not being in the Order of Whispers therefore not being among the sole group to have access to Elona for decades (meanwhile Killeen goes "who's the order of whispers?").

 

There was another dialogue (around Amnoon iirc) that specifically mentioned the branded - prior to Kralkatorrik moving south - were harassing westward across Desert Highlands. I had always put 2 and 2 together to get that being the trade routes being messed with up north, given aforementioned lockdown and lack of contact between Tyria and Elona.

 

Besides, you're still ignoring the fact that there's been [a lockdown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockdown) on Elona since 1135/1175 AE. As I pointed out first thing.

 

Nothing you have presented states that there was trade between Elona and Tyria in 1329 AE. The best you get is that Amnoon had northern trade partners that the branded prevent access to. And we already know of four communities north of Amnoon but south of Ascalon.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> There is no known land access from the Shiverpeaks to Elona that currently exists, and many NPCs make it clear. Judgement Rock doesn't GO anywhere that we know of, and the Zypherite's Cliffs aren't directly connected to either location(we got there by ship if you remember, not via walking.)

 

The irony of your last statement is dumbfounding.

 

Look at the map. What does one pass by if they're sailing to Labyrinthine Cliffs? Ah, right. *The Crystal Desert*. What does one sail upon to reach there? *The Sea of Elon.*

 

And what does Judgment Rock give immediate access to, as we can plainly see upon looking at the map? *The Sea of Elon.*

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086

> > > Unless ArenaNet completely changes the set up they've established over the past four years, I don't see us ending our climactic battles in a LW Season. Ever. Regardless of timespan of releases.

> >

> > Mmmmm, I don’t t know Konig, beating Scarlet on the Breachmaker surrounded by a destroyed Lions Arch was a pretty cinematic battle and that was after the crazy events that turned the city into a battlefield. Even if the devs were unsure if they were going to doing living updates or an expansion. They could change the formula up, so they don’t fall into patterns,like how they changed things up for Path of Fire.

> >

> > Guess time will tell.

>

> Wow. Did you not even read my post? I make it pretty kitten obvious that I'm talking about **once they started making expansions**. E.g., Season 2 and onward.

>

> Season 1 is the exception. Not the rule. And it's an exception that ArenaNet has made pretty clear is not going to be occurring again in any form - from temporary nature to altering open world heavily, and by all accounts, even to being the closure of a main plot.

 

Woah, woah, woah, I didn’t mean to offend you. You didn’t really state once they started making expansions. You just said the last four years, which would be at the tail end of Season 1.

 

What I’m saying is that Anet doesn’t want their expansion and living world to fit into a cookie cutter and a formula, so having a big bad be killed like Kralky would disrupt the formula and make for interesting plot.

 

 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>Ghosts of Ascalon doesn't involve Kralkatorrik.

I never said it did, I said the books, with an s, as in plural, as in, meaning more then one.

>-given aforementioned lockdown and lack of contact between Tyria and Elona.

>-Besides, you're still ignoring the fact that there's been a lockdown on Elona since 1135/1175 AE

The Crystal Desert isn't Elona. In case you forgot, its part of Tyria. Elona is everything south of the Bone Wall, which even most of the people in the desert region don't have access too, and even they are cut off from except for the handful of people Joko exiles north.

>And we already know of four communities north of Amnoon but south of Ascalon.

All of which they still have access to despite the branded, making none of them the ones in question. Whereas the only group we do know they lost contact with, due to the branded up north, was Ebonhawk.

>Look at the map. What does one pass by if they're sailing to Labyrinthine Cliffs? Ah, right. The Crystal Desert.

Incorrect. One passes near it, but not by it.


>And what does Judgment Rock give immediate access to

Nothing, because there is nothing there. You seem to confuse an artifact of the game's development, I.e. the unused portal, as being actually there when it isn't until the game uses it(since those portals don't actually exist in lore, they are a gameplay mechanic used to separate maps.)

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> >Ghosts of Ascalon doesn't involve Kralkatorrik.

> I never said it did, I said the books, with an s, as in plural, as in, meaning more then one.

> >-given aforementioned lockdown and lack of contact between Tyria and Elona.

> >-Besides, you're still ignoring the fact that there's been a lockdown on Elona since 1135/1175 AE

> The Crystal Desert isn't Elona. In case you forgot, its part of Tyria. Elona is everything south of the Bone Wall, which even most of the people in the desert region don't have access too, and even they are cut off from except for the handful of people Joko exiles north.

> >And we already know of four communities north of Amnoon but south of Ascalon.

> All of which they still have access to despite the branded, making none of them the ones in question. Whereas the only group we do know they lost contact with, due to the branded up north, was Ebonhawk.

> >Look at the map. What does one pass by if they're sailing to Labyrinthine Cliffs? Ah, right. The Crystal Desert.

> Incorrect. One passes near it, but not by it.

> 

> >And what does Judgment Rock give immediate access to

> Nothing, because there is nothing there. You seem to confuse an artifact of the game's development, I.e. the unused portal, as being actually there when it isn't until the game uses it(since those portals don't actually exist in lore, they are a gameplay mechanic used to separate maps.)

 

You could argue that the Crystal Desert is technically northern Elona. Way back in the day the continents would have a more defined border when the Crystal Desert was the Crystal Sea. The reason I would argue that it is a part of Elona is that the location of the Tomb of Primeval Kings is at the northern part of the Crystal Desert. Doesn’t make sense your bury your dead in lands that you don’t control, especially royalty. Would be like burying a former president of the United States in Canada, just doesn’t make sense.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> You could argue that the Crystal Desert is technically northern Elona. Way back in the day the continents would have a more defined border when the Crystal Desert was the Crystal Sea. The reason I would argue that it is a part of Elona is that the location of the Tomb of Primeval Kings is at the northern part of the Crystal Desert. Doesn’t make sense your bury your dead in lands that you don’t control, especially royalty. Would be like burying a former president of the United States in Canada, just doesn’t make sense.

The Crystal desert is Elonian culturally, but Tyrian in terms of what landmass its on.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> >-given aforementioned lockdown and lack of contact between Tyria and Elona.

> >-Besides, you're still ignoring the fact that there's been a lockdown on Elona since 1135/1175 AE

> The Crystal Desert isn't Elona. In case you forgot, its part of Tyria. Elona is everything south of the Bone Wall, which even most of the people in the desert region don't have access too, and even they are cut off from except for the handful of people Joko exiles north.

 

Seriously?

 

First Mate Fidus Foecrush: Our navigational charts didn't say nothing about gigantic pyramids. Didn't think our info was so out-of-date.

Pact Commander: It's been hard for cartographers to keep up. **This entire region has been in lockdown** since Palawa Joko took over.

 

The line doesn't specifically say Elona. It says "this entire region". That includes the Crystal Desert.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> >Look at the map. What does one pass by if they're sailing to Labyrinthine Cliffs? Ah, right. The Crystal Desert.

> Incorrect. One passes near it, but not by it.

> https://i.imgur.com/SBzdnik.jpg

 

You're not stupid enough to not realize that it's not hard to change direction at the split in the Sea of Elon to get to Amnoon and Desert Highlands in that very same passage. So why the hell are you trying to argue such semantics?

 

You're wrong here. No matter what maps you paint up, no matter what other dialogues you find, it's **explicitly stated** that the Crystal Desert and Elona were on lockdown ever since Joko took over (1135-1175 AE). It's explicitly stated that contact with Elona (and that would include Amnoon) hadn't been had for decades.

 

There's nothing to question about the lines presented by myself and Tyson.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> Nothing, because there is nothing there. You seem to confuse an artifact of the game's development, I.e. the unused portal, as being actually there when it isn't until the game uses it(since those portals don't actually exist in lore, they are a gameplay mechanic used to separate maps.)

 

We literally see an artificially blocked off passage at Judgment Rock. That means that there's an actual passage. (Fun fact: this passage was originally to lead to a new map due south of Mount Maelstrom, which was to be mostly underwater content; this got scrapped in early development like the would-be-map west of Sparkly Fen that we can see another portal to, as well as the D'Alessio Seaboard and Lake Doric maps that_shaman and others found in the dat).

 

And not only that, but the northern edge of Judgment rock is **open waters** - you get the mechanical "water currents are too strong so you're pushed back" set up, but there's nothing in lore stopping a person going due east there. Literally nothing.

 

And honestly, I could turn this very same argument on you:

 

"You seem to confuse an artifact of the game's development, i.e., the mountainous map borders and players inability to vertically climb, as being actually there when it isn't in the lore."

 

Ghosts of Ascalon has the group go from Fields of Ruin through the Secluded Glen into Plains of Ashford. This is not possible in the game due to the map's mountainous borders. In lore, those square boxing borders are not there. There's nothing to prevent characters in lore from traversing the Shiverpeak Mountains into Desert Highlands, let alone using that water passage.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > You could argue that the Crystal Desert is technically northern Elona. Way back in the day the continents would have a more defined border when the Crystal Desert was the Crystal Sea. The reason I would argue that it is a part of Elona is that the location of the Tomb of Primeval Kings is at the northern part of the Crystal Desert. Doesn’t make sense your bury your dead in lands that you don’t control, especially royalty. Would be like burying a former president of the United States in Canada, just doesn’t make sense.

> The Crystal desert is Elonian culturally, but Tyrian in terms of what landmass its on.

 

Both Elona and Central Tyria are on the same landmass, if you want to get technical - which you apparently do with your argument of such thin-lined semantics. In fact, unless you go exclusively towards GW1 world map mechanics, the entire Crystal Desert is almost always considered part of Elona when Elona is called a continent rather than a nation (which is very little).

 

Hell, The Desolation is literally part of the Crystal Desert, and there's no one arguing that's not part of Elona.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > You could argue that the Crystal Desert is technically northern Elona. Way back in the day the continents would have a more defined border when the Crystal Desert was the Crystal Sea. The reason I would argue that it is a part of Elona is that the location of the Tomb of Primeval Kings is at the northern part of the Crystal Desert. Doesn’t make sense your bury your dead in lands that you don’t control, especially royalty. Would be like burying a former president of the United States in Canada, just doesn’t make sense.

> The Crystal desert is Elonian culturally, but Tyrian in terms of what landmass its on.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > You could argue that the Crystal Desert is technically northern Elona. Way back in the day the continents would have a more defined border when the Crystal Desert was the Crystal Sea. The reason I would argue that it is a part of Elona is that the location of the Tomb of Primeval Kings is at the northern part of the Crystal Desert. Doesn’t make sense your bury your dead in lands that you don’t control, especially royalty. Would be like burying a former president of the United States in Canada, just doesn’t make sense.

> The Crystal desert is Elonian culturally, but Tyrian in terms of what landmass its on.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> The Crystal Desert isn't Elona. In case you forgot, its part of Tyria. Elona is everything south of the Bone Wall, which even most of the people in the desert region don't have access too, and even they are cut off from except for the handful of people Joko exiles north.

 

Oh contraire mon frere, this isn’t actually the case. The desolation is actually apart of the Crystal Desert. Check these quotes from gw1 from the Spirits in the Desolation.

 

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dynastic_Spirit

 

"I fear the powers rising in the Crystal Desert. I feel Palawa Joko's fingers in the sand, counting the hours we have left on this world."

 

“Something moved beneath the sands of the Crystal Desert. Hungry spirits, seeking flesh."

 

Guess where all these spirits are located, you guessed it, the Desolation from Gw1.

 

Also look at this.

 

Kormir: Have you not learned from the last time the gods stood against one of their own—against Abaddon?

Kormir: Thirteen hundred years ago, Abaddon and his army of fanatics waged a war ranging across the shores and islands of the Crystal Sea.

Kormir: The battle was so ferocious that the ocean boiled away, leaving behind the desert you see today.

Kormir: When the gods finally struck down Abbadon, his fall warped and ravaged these lands, creating the Desolation.

 

Thanks Kormir from PoF.

 

And this..

 

Mouth of Torment

 

It was here that Abaddon and his Margonites challenged the power of the Five True Gods, and here that the other gods smote the God of Secrets down, imprisoning him and his following in a Realm of Torment. This once beautiful land is now a crater littered with the trappings of a god. And above it the Mouth of Torment hangs, a weakness in the world, a globe of pure evil, beckoning all to their doom.

— in-game description

 

Ok so we established that the Desolation is in the Crystal Desert.

 

So south of the bone wall is the crystal desert.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> B. The fact that both the Tyrian and Elonian passageway guards mention it was the Branded that cut the route between the two, not Joko. Which is supported by traders in Amoon.

And if you paid attention to this thread's conversation, you'd know that the guard also says "We've been unable to contact Elona since its last refugees fled the desert to Divinity's Reach." while other sources (similarly provided in this thread) have said that there's been no contact for decades. That blatantly states that it was blocked off by royal decree before Kralkatorrik, who even by PoF's time has only been around for a decade, not longer, and all aforementioned sources are based in 1325 AE. All of which is supported by the Commander's statement, and about a dozen other comments.

 

Just because branded *now* are cutting off passage, doesn't mean that they're the reason it was closed by royal decree in the first place.

 

> C. The fact that the Commander is a citizen of The Grove/Rata Sum/Kryta/The Charr/The Norn, which HAS been cut off from the region for all those years, because the only way to the desert was via the Desert Gate, which was part of Ebonhawk, which didn't have a secure connection to anywhere until 1320AE, when Queen Jennah had the Asura Gate there fixed, which was also the same year Kralkatorik created the brand, cutting off access, making it a moot point regardless. Not to mention the fact the fortress was under near constant siege by the Charr until 1324AE, making it not a place people really went too to trade. And the only other passage, via sea, was cutoff by Zhiatan's navy around Orr.

Contact was not impossible with Ebonhawke prior to 1320 AE, as proven by the very beginning of the Edge of Destiny novel, and really the entire lore of Ebonhawke getting supplies from Kryta for the past 250 years. Furthermore, only humans would have had issues getting to there, as asura, norn, and sylvari (and especially charr) were never unable to travel through Ascalon to reach the front lines of that conflict. Charr might have had issues getting to the Desert Gate, but you'd be an idiot to think that a single gate is the sole point of access across an entire mountain range. Even if it meant mountain climbing.

 

Furthermore, as I've pointed out, there are more methods to get to the Crystal Desert than the "Desert Gate" in general (or through where the Shiverpeak and Blazeridge meet). Zhaitan's navy never reached beyond The Mire Sea, and even then that reach was only recent by all accounts. There was nothing - literally nothing - preventing explorers from mountain climbing through the Deldrimor Front. Why there's those NPCs saying the area was blocked off? I dunno, most likely developer oversight. Because [it's actually point blank stated that the Durmand Priory had explorers going into the desert in the sylvari personal story](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Secrets_in_the_Earth). Hell, we even have [a second scholar stating he personally returned from the Crystal Desert](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scholar_Stinn).

 

So while there have been government sanctions, embargos, and other avoidance of access against Elona and the Crystal Desert, nothing ever prevented individuals - especially the Durmand Priory - from traveling there themselves. Just like there was nothing stopping [Erik Oevermar](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Erik_Oevermar) from exploring Bloodstone Fen long before Mordremoth.

 

> Besides the fact Mount Malestrom is considered the literal kitten end of nowhere wilderness, so far from any civilization as to be barely explored itself. You COULD, but no one does because no one is out there to do so beyond the Inquest, who were in Elona as we know. The main water way from actual civilization like Lion's Arch, Rata Sum, and the Grove, was blocked by Zhaitan's navy around Orr.

 

One could say the same for the Maguuma Jungle, and yet [Kryta had established trade routes through it](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Fort_Koga).

 

Besides, "end of nowhere wilderness" wouldn't stop explorers. I mean, it didn't stop the [Tyrian Protectors](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tyrian_Protector) or the Pact, did it? Or the Inquest, to use your own point.

 

> To make this more hilarious, you keep screaming the area was totally sealed off, but then turn around and start screaming that anyone could just walk there via some passage in the Shiverpeaks... which is it? It's easier cut off, or any Joe Schmo could go there.

 

Trade embargos and lockdowns != sealed off

 

Learn the difference. The difference is that the government merely prevents official trade. Meaning that while passage and trade *is* possible, it is strictly illegal.

 

What you fail to realize is that the lockdown has happened for 150+ years, meaning there's been no non-black market methods of contacting Elona for over a century, and that includes trade.

 

You're literally arguing against the game itself with your attempts at logic and map drawing. A **prepared** representative of Lion's Arch has vastly outdated (by over a century) cartography maps, and when bringing it up the Commander mentions that the region has been in lockdown.

 

> So are Europe, Asia, and Africa, your point?

 

Africa technically isn't, though Eurasia is a single landmass though.

 

[Castigator.3470]

To get this back on track: I'm carefully optimistic, that we will get a resolution to the peace treaty plot, since that has been hanging around since release and is a major plot thread that has to be resolved, since failure to do so might put human and charr players into open warfare. It may be sufficient to say that the krytan civil war pushed the humans to accept the treaty much faster to gain the High Legion's assistance in fighting back Caudecus and his menagerie of bloodstone crazed White Mantle/Centaurs.

This was bought with some concessions, so that Bangar Ruinbringer is now a happy Imperator and the Charr force Flame to capitulate. Flame territory is temporarily occupied and the Goldies are taught, if not to stop worshipping, then at least not doing so through ridiculous damage to the environment.

This leaves us with the Claw of the Khan-Ur and the age old Charr Question: Who will rule all the Legions? There is no easy answer to this.

The one with the least bloodshed would have the four Imperators face of in personal combat, until one Charr is acknowleged as the most badass of them all.

This would establish the Legions of the Charr as a world power, maybe even surpassing Cantha, due to superior power projection.

But Tyrian history has always been tricky, who knows, maybe the humans manage to keep up in this contest and establish a type of cold war uneasyness. Or the Sylvari accidentally find a way to establish world peace, establishing the pale tree as a neutral arbiter in diplomatic affairs.

 

Edit: Whatever else may happen, I hope we'll hear back from our friends when the story focuses on the Legions:

Will we finally recieve that letter from Vallus Smokemane? (Maybe he's moved to Lion's Arch, after we saved him in "Thicker than Water")

Clement Forktail may send fatherly advice on charr politics (if we sided with him in "A Fork in the Road")

Our Sparring Partner (Reeva, Dinky, Clawspur, Euryale, Maverick) may finally report to the player on what the Warband has been up to.

All the others may get a letter from Smodur, Bangar, or Malice as a fallback.

[Kulvar.1239]

> @"Castigator.3470" said:

> Will we finally recieve that letter from Vallus Smokemane? (Maybe he's moved to Lion's Arch, after we saved him in "Thicker than Water")

 

Chose that after he promised to explain himself in the previous quest, never had any explanation in years...

 

 

[perilisk.1874]

> The problem with a Kralkatorik expansion is that it lacks the three major things needed to make an expansion, specifically, it lacks narrative, location, and gameplay mechanics

 

Maybe. But remember that when the dragons absorb the energies of other dragons, they can, e.g., make death minions or whatever. But dragon aspects are mostly primal and elemental. Divine energies seem more tied to spiritual/social things.

 

We don't exactly know what happens if dragons consume divine energies. If a dragon consumes the energies of the god of war and conflict, who himself was seeking power to attack and cast down the other gods... well, maybe Kraalkatorik has decided that Tyria only needs one Elder Dragon, and he's heading to the ocean to remedy the surplus.

 

Hell, maybe Kraalkatorik -is- Balthazar, or at least a synthesis of the dragon's id and the god's ego. We already learned that the Forgotten tried to "convert" it, and simply lacked the power. Snaff had hoped to do something similar. There's definitely been some foreshadowing in that regard. Certainly, the Branded attacks in LS4, especially the first at Amnoon, have felt a little like a personal vendetta against the PC (what exactly drew the Branded to Fahranur other than a chance to ruin our day?), which is a little too human of a motivation for a dragon. And killing Balthazar seemed a little too easy, all things considered.

 

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I think Joko is going to be defeated in the living story so that the next expansion will be able to focus on Kralk and the other dragons.