Feedback on the State of the Mesmer [merged]

[ZeteCommander.4937]

> @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > > > > Again trying to defend the ret class.

> > > > > > > > Also I forget to mention the free dodge every heal.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > And again defend attack on dodge.

> > > > > > > > /applause

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Blurred frenzy is to evade while recovering cds

> > > > > > > > stop acting dumb please.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ahahahahahahahahahahahahaahha?

> > > > > > > What free dodge every heal ?????????????? You complaint about adventurer rune? EVERYONE CAN USE IT , stop acting dumb

> > > > > > > Yes , defend mechanic we get which we get for dropping Chrono/other traitlines.

> > > > > > > Any evade skill let recover cds while evading, stop acting dumb

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think he's talking about False Oasis lol.

> > > > >

> > > > > Guess you didn't have to explain to him.

> > > > > He was deliberately trolling or does not play mesmer.

> > > > >

> > > > > However turtle, class mechanic is ambush, not mirage cloak.

> > > > > They decided to give the ambush while in mirage cloak, but the mesmer feature is to activate a new skill while dodging ( like thief while in stealth ).

> > > > >

> > > > > The fact that he can cast it while dodging makes him too good.

> > > > > It could simply be changed giving mesmer a choice.

> > > > >

> > > > > I see no reason to give a class a mechanic which can't be countered, and for what he does not have to trade anything ( while i dodge, i dodge. i don't deal dmg nor i am able to cast all the skill is want.

> > > >

> > > > The dodge is a trade off if you use it offensively you can't use it defensively funny how that works. Jfc Mirage Cloak+Ambush are the Mirage main mechanics, both of them are. Stop cherry picking.

> > >

> > > It's not a trade off.

> > > If I put pressure on you you dodge, and while dodging you also deal dmg. Or with your ambush or another skill.

> > > If you put pressure on me and i dodge, i simply dodge.

> > >

> > > It's not that hard to understand where the problem lies.

> >

> > The problem appears to lie in your fundamental understanding of how Mirage works. e.g. using dodge offensively, _WHEN THERE IS NO IMMINENT DANGER IN ORDER TO DEAL MORE DAMAGE_, is the trade off since _YOU NO LONGER GET TO USE THAT DODGE FOR DEFENSE WITHIN THE NEXT FEW SECONDS_

> >

> > That first point is incorrect, while dodging you only deal damage with ambushes or other skills the dodge itself does not do damage unlike Daredevil. I think you also have deficiency in understanding what a unique class mechanic is. Should other classes start getting toolbelt skills because only Engi has those? Should Weaver not have attunements since other classes can't dual attune? Should Daredevil only have 2 dodges because that's how many everyone else has?

>

> You are definitely trolling.

> All classes don't deal dmg on dodge.

> Mesmer does.

>

> Still, you continue to defend it screaming "IT'S PART OF MIRAGE MECHANICS!", unable to see that while dodging ( whatever if by choice of because of pressure ) you, unlike other classes, are able to deal dmg.

>

> Sincerely I give up on you, whatever you pretend to troll or not to understand the problem.

All classes don't deal dmg on dodge???

I suggest you download the game first

[Odik.4587]

> @"AtlasUmbra.5682" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > Mesmer isn't OP and hasn't been for the majority of the life of the game. In fact, I recall years when it was generally agreed that Mesmer was "trash tier" after the big glamour nerf. It's not a straightforward, "swing the sword" class.

> >

> > It requires a certain level of skill, situational awareness and knowledge to fight a reasonably proficient Mesmer. That is the reason it may be perceived as OP. Mesmer will continue to be regarded that way for as long as it wins fights.

> >

> > A big example was clone death. **It was condemned as "toxic." Yet, Necromancer has virtually the same skill and has had it since gw1.** One possible takeaway is that it's "toxic" because it's a Mesmer skill. Removing that ability downgraded quite a few builds. I'd love to see clone death return to today's aoe spam environment.

> >

> > My point is that Mesmer takes a lot of flack simply because it can be tricky to play against. Two possible paths present themselves; one is to learn the other is to scream for nerfs.

> >

> > 1) Thank you for your grammar and spelling. I can read your comment without getting a headache, unlike the rest of this thread...

> 2) I am a necro main learning mesmer in order to play a new toon effectively. I played it once before against another mesmer in a guild pvp arena (a year or two before I actually built characters correctly), and I can say for sure that it is quite tricky not only to play against, but to play as, too. I was a _mess_ trying to think of so many things at the same time. Now that I have more knowledge on what to pay attention to, I'm coming back to mesmer and studying the hell out of it. They most definitely aren't straightforward fighters. **The very concept of mesmers as a class is the antithesis of straightforward!** The fact that they're so good at getting into our heads and aggravating us is (partially) an example of them playing the class correctly.

>

> Basically, I agree with you on both main points. They aren't straightforward, and they can be tricky to play against because of that. Learning the class in-depth is the best way to fight against it. If you're worried enough about it, gear your build toward anti-mesmer. Find ways to counter it by evolving your build. If you "can't counter it" or it's "impossible" to do so, then you need to study up on guerrilla warfare. Know thine enemy, they say.

 

After nerfs on mesmer that affected Mirage people hop on Chrono (because Chrono dont care about them). Looking at 3 phantasms that becomes too hard to deal with because of CP:

Defender-bomberman oneshotting unaware people+ taunt(only rework ,no damage nerfs), disenchanter hit a bit too hard on boonless foe(instead could be reduced damage with power amulet from 2.1 to 1500~1600 and bring old 20-25s cd), shield 4 if not dodged hit with power amulet for 1.9 base damage(reduce damage).(People could deal with 1 of each phantasm BUT not army being resummoned with chronophantasma/split/signet)

(small addition : 25% damage reduction in chaos isnt really necessary,make it max 15-20% for longer duration)

 

**So Anet must do something about CHRONOPHANTASMA before nerfing Mesmer anywhere. Nerfing Mesmer everywhere but not Chronophantasma to keep it for PVE its not how you deal with a problem.**

Because this trait is too strong after phantasm rework/illusions traitline.

Make phantasm summon only 1 phantasm(compensate damage loss,rework GS gm trait AGAIN, shield phantasm is fine) ,first of all that would reduce amount of clutter on screen, number of clones obtained . Wouldnt need to nerf phantasmal force might stacks ,quickness(i woulnt want to nerf quickness anyway),persistance of memory . (Becaus ea lot of phantasms means more boons , each phantasm now have high cooldown ,so im more than sure this would be much better for everyone).

As i said ,once they replace/fix/whatever with chronophantasma . Balance Mesmer would be 1 million times easier because 1 strong trait shouldnt be a reason to overnerf entire class.

[Legatus.3608]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > > > > > Again trying to defend the ret class.

> > > > > > > > > Also I forget to mention the free dodge every heal.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > And again defend attack on dodge.

> > > > > > > > > /applause

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Blurred frenzy is to evade while recovering cds

> > > > > > > > > stop acting dumb please.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ahahahahahahahahahahahahaahha?

> > > > > > > > What free dodge every heal ?????????????? You complaint about adventurer rune? EVERYONE CAN USE IT , stop acting dumb

> > > > > > > > Yes , defend mechanic we get which we get for dropping Chrono/other traitlines.

> > > > > > > > Any evade skill let recover cds while evading, stop acting dumb

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think he's talking about False Oasis lol.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Guess you didn't have to explain to him.

> > > > > > He was deliberately trolling or does not play mesmer.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > However turtle, class mechanic is ambush, not mirage cloak.

> > > > > > They decided to give the ambush while in mirage cloak, but the mesmer feature is to activate a new skill while dodging ( like thief while in stealth ).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The fact that he can cast it while dodging makes him too good.

> > > > > > It could simply be changed giving mesmer a choice.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I see no reason to give a class a mechanic which can't be countered, and for what he does not have to trade anything ( while i dodge, i dodge. i don't deal dmg nor i am able to cast all the skill is want.

> > > > >

> > > > > The dodge is a trade off if you use it offensively you can't use it defensively funny how that works. Jfc Mirage Cloak+Ambush are the Mirage main mechanics, both of them are. Stop cherry picking.

> > > >

> > > > It's not a trade off.

> > > > If I put pressure on you you dodge, and while dodging you also deal dmg. Or with your ambush or another skill.

> > > > If you put pressure on me and i dodge, i simply dodge.

> > > >

> > > > It's not that hard to understand where the problem lies.

> > >

> > > The problem appears to lie in your fundamental understanding of how Mirage works. e.g. using dodge offensively, _WHEN THERE IS NO IMMINENT DANGER IN ORDER TO DEAL MORE DAMAGE_, is the trade off since _YOU NO LONGER GET TO USE THAT DODGE FOR DEFENSE WITHIN THE NEXT FEW SECONDS_

> > >

> > > That first point is incorrect, while dodging you only deal damage with ambushes or other skills the dodge itself does not do damage unlike Daredevil. I think you also have deficiency in understanding what a unique class mechanic is. Should other classes start getting toolbelt skills because only Engi has those? Should Weaver not have attunements since other classes can't dual attune? Should Daredevil only have 2 dodges because that's how many everyone else has?

> >

> > No the problem appears to lie in your fundamental understanding of when to use dodge and when to not use it as a mesmer.

> > EXAMPLE 1: You are not being attacked for significant damage, so you do not dodge. Instead you rotate through your non-ambush skills like normal or do something else.

> > EXAMPLE 2: Your teammate is about to trigger full counter and the warrior is on top of you, you press dodge and once full counter activates (if you timed it right) you'll still be under mirage cloak and you can still activate your ambush skill.

> >

> > The ability or inability to properly utilize your dodges so that you both evade a critical damaging ability and subsequently deliver one yourself is solely on you. It has nothing to do with tradeoffs. It has everything to do with you not understanding that you save mirage cloak + ambush for the right moment.

> >

> > Further, I maintain that mesmer has become a straight upgrade on anything thief actually does and that, while I have no idea who edgelord is, I don't care because I retain the right to make someone's position on an issue into a meme whenever I want.

>

> Or your playstyle isn't advanced enough to realize when to use Mirage Cloak offensively, also you mistakenly tried to use a False Dilemma argument here, there are far more instances in combat you could use Mirage Cloak for, including offensively. And do tell me, which Mirage ambush is truly critically damaging on it's own such that saving it is necessary for the absolute right time? If anything that's as predictable as it gets.

>

> You're just another thief main that gets all uppity whenever literally anyone has any advantage over them.

 

I literally just explained to you the best way to use mirage cloak, are you capable of reading text or are you not? Or are you trying to say it's best to use mirage cloak offensively only and ignore the dodge function that goes with it? I literally don't know what you're trying to say here because it doesn't make sense.

 

The best use of mirage cloak is to dodge an important damaging ability and then use your ambush. There's no debating that point. As a mesmer main I'm kind of disappointed you would even try to argue that frankly, it proves to me and everyone that you aren't interested in balance, you just want to protect your op mesmer baby class.

 

Look man, nobody wants anet to destroy mesmer as a class, but when it completely eliminates the need for other classes because it ACTUALLY does every role better than that class it needs to be changed. Again if you're going to debate that point you aren't interested in balance.

[Arioch.4810]

feedback: information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc. which is used as a basis for improvement.

 

I guess insulting other participants and using straw arguments is a form of feedback, altho I'm not sure what exactly it brings to discussion. Other than making us cringe when we have to read it....

 

I stated my opinion somewhere up, since i feel that without control on my team's composition playing Mesmer (or Scourge) brings me to equal footing and possibly gives me competitive edge, i will play PvP with 2 toons built just for that.

That is one way to achieve balance - give up on a part you feel is underperforimng and replace it with a part that performs better.

 

But, what will happen with diversity of the game, and, more importantly, with population of players if you are forced to "steer clear" of some professions in PvP?

 

[AtlasUmbra.5682]

> @"Arioch.4810" said:

> I guess insulting other participants and using straw arguments is a form of feedback, altho I'm not sure what exactly it brings to discussion. Other than making us cringe when we have to read it....

 

Seriously. 60% of the discussion threads I've gone through even in the past _month_ are just mudslinging with keywords in there to draw in innocent bystanders XD

[bLind.6278]

Merged so they can ignore this thread more efficiently.

 

\#Rekt

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> Can we please get a longer cooldown on the *major* (not even grandmaster!) trait "Evasive Mirror? The requirement to trigger this trait is far too lenient for how effective it is.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evasive_Mirror

>

> Currently it has a 1.5s cooldown, yet the reflect lasts for 2s. Increasing the cooldown to 5s at the very minimum would allow a small amount of counterplay by ranged-projectile builds...

 

Lol @ semi-permanent reflect uptime on a class that generates vigor on shatter.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> It's not a repeated lie, mesmer has been capable of maintaining permanent evade uptime for quite a long time. It is obviously not possible for a class to have more evade uptime than PERMANENT evade. The mistake they are making is that most mesmers don't use PERMANENT evade in pvp (since nobody NEEDS permanent evade and some of those evades are better spent on utility or damage), and that the sigils required for mesmer to have permanent evade uptime have been nerfed in pvp.

 

Yeah you can maintain permaevade or close to it, you only need to have adv runes, sigils of energy, false oasis, illusionary ambush, crystal sands, sand through glass and do nothing but spamming evades, mirrors and shatters, similar to Sanic DD back then (which I didn't saw anyone complaining about, QQ is kind of thieves' unique mechanic)

So be my guess and take mirrors out of crystal sands and sand through glass, no one uses them either way.

 

 

 

 

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> **So Anet must do something about CHRONOPHANTASMA before nerfing Mesmer anywhere. Nerfing Mesmer everywhere but not Chronophantasma to keep it for PVE its not how you deal with a problem.**

 

I would add something to help with these evades spams everyone talks about and doesn't exist, make mirage cloak a boon so it can be corrupt or stripped.

(My plan is for mirage cloak duration to be increased by concentration so everyone cries even more :) )

[Odik.4587]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > It's not a repeated lie, mesmer has been capable of maintaining permanent evade uptime for quite a long time. It is obviously not possible for a class to have more evade uptime than PERMANENT evade. The mistake they are making is that most mesmers don't use PERMANENT evade in pvp (since nobody NEEDS permanent evade and some of those evades are better spent on utility or damage), and that the sigils required for mesmer to have permanent evade uptime have been nerfed in pvp.

>

> Yeah you can maintain permaevade or close to it, you only need to have adv runes, sigils of energy, false oasis, illusionary ambush, crystal sands, sand through glass and do nothing but spamming evades, mirrors and shatters, similar to Sanic DD back then (which I didn't saw anyone complaining about, QQ is kind of thieves' unique mechanic)

> So be my guess and take mirrors out of crystal sands and sand through glass, no one uses them either way.

>

>

>

>

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > **So Anet must do something about CHRONOPHANTASMA before nerfing Mesmer anywhere. Nerfing Mesmer everywhere but not Chronophantasma to keep it for PVE its not how you deal with a problem.**

>

> I would add something to help with these evades spams everyone talks about and doesn't exist, make mirage cloak a boon so it can be corrupt or stripped.

> (My plan is for mirage cloak duration to be increased by concentration so everyone cries even more :) )

 

You are wrong about perma evades .

You need desert distortion,signet of illusions, mimic ,to mimic signet ofc (for 3 times f4 and 9 mirrors! 12 seconds of invul,9 seconds of evades from this omagaaaaaaad),mirage heal , ambush, crystal sands, mirage breakstun ,so you can be untouchable for a very long time! (sigil of energy ,adventurer ofc too).

What i have done? It was a secret build for easly monthly win ... :(

 

Why you mention core problem of memser balance and talk about ideas that only Shirliass can come up with :< . Such disrespect

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> Why you mention core problem of memser balance and talk about ideas that only Shirliass can come up with :< . Such disrespect

 

=)

 

There's a saying in my country (probably exists in other countries aswell) that parents say to their little children "if you cry without reason I'll give you a reason to cry".

Kind of the same reasoning, they're qqing so much (in case of evades without reason) so give them a reason so they can qq.

 

[moutzaheadin.4029]

Standing from the tower relaxing , watching the general population of the game break out the torches and pitchforks for Mesmer nerfs just brings a smile to my face.

 

What's even more amusing , is the same 3-4 Mesmer (lolmains) are trying to tell everyone they know more then 95% of the people that play this game.

 

I have 6000 hours as a Mesmer in wvw. It's ridiculously overpowered and boring to play. Power mirage needs a huge nerf to dmg and evade / dash / blink / port spam.

 

Chrono needs a nerf to damage also , and a nerf to spamable Phantasms.

 

I know it , you know it. It's the no skill bandwagoners that are fighting to hold on to thier OP'd cheese are the ones here defending the spec or giving suggestions that really don't address the real issues.

 

Either way , I think this is 25 pages of gold. Ty.

 

 

 

 

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"moutzaheadin.4029" said:

> Standing from the tower relaxing , watching the general population of the game break out the torches and pitchforks for Mesmer nerfs just brings a smile to my face.

>

> What's even more amusing , is the same 3-4 Mesmer (lolmains) are trying to tell everyone they know more then 95% of the people that play this game.

>

> I have 6000 hours as a Mesmer in wvw. It's ridiculously overpowered and boring to play. Power mirage needs a huge nerf to dmg and evade / dash / blink / port spam.

>

> Chrono needs a nerf to damage also , and a nerf to spamable Phantasms.

>

> I know it , you know it. It's the no skill bandwagoners that are fighting to hold on to thier OP'd cheese are the ones here defending the spec or giving suggestions that really don't address the real issues.

>

> Either way , I think this is 25 pages of gold. Ty.

>

>

>

>

 

Calls all the other mesmers cheese builds and no skill and was the guy that cried when shatterspam chrono no longer existed. Pot meet kettle.

[Crinn.7864]

guys guys, I almost 1v1'ed a Mesmer. But then he was like lolz, and vanished over the horizon.

[Legatus.3608]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Again trying to defend the ret class.

> > > > > > > > > > > Also I forget to mention the free dodge every heal.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > And again defend attack on dodge.

> > > > > > > > > > > /applause

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Blurred frenzy is to evade while recovering cds

> > > > > > > > > > > stop acting dumb please.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > ahahahahahahahahahahahahaahha?

> > > > > > > > > > What free dodge every heal ?????????????? You complaint about adventurer rune? EVERYONE CAN USE IT , stop acting dumb

> > > > > > > > > > Yes , defend mechanic we get which we get for dropping Chrono/other traitlines.

> > > > > > > > > > Any evade skill let recover cds while evading, stop acting dumb

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I think he's talking about False Oasis lol.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Guess you didn't have to explain to him.

> > > > > > > > He was deliberately trolling or does not play mesmer.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > However turtle, class mechanic is ambush, not mirage cloak.

> > > > > > > > They decided to give the ambush while in mirage cloak, but the mesmer feature is to activate a new skill while dodging ( like thief while in stealth ).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The fact that he can cast it while dodging makes him too good.

> > > > > > > > It could simply be changed giving mesmer a choice.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I see no reason to give a class a mechanic which can't be countered, and for what he does not have to trade anything ( while i dodge, i dodge. i don't deal dmg nor i am able to cast all the skill is want.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The dodge is a trade off if you use it offensively you can't use it defensively funny how that works. Jfc Mirage Cloak+Ambush are the Mirage main mechanics, both of them are. Stop cherry picking.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's not a trade off.

> > > > > > If I put pressure on you you dodge, and while dodging you also deal dmg. Or with your ambush or another skill.

> > > > > > If you put pressure on me and i dodge, i simply dodge.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's not that hard to understand where the problem lies.

> > > > >

> > > > > The problem appears to lie in your fundamental understanding of how Mirage works. e.g. using dodge offensively, _WHEN THERE IS NO IMMINENT DANGER IN ORDER TO DEAL MORE DAMAGE_, is the trade off since _YOU NO LONGER GET TO USE THAT DODGE FOR DEFENSE WITHIN THE NEXT FEW SECONDS_

> > > > >

> > > > > That first point is incorrect, while dodging you only deal damage with ambushes or other skills the dodge itself does not do damage unlike Daredevil. I think you also have deficiency in understanding what a unique class mechanic is. Should other classes start getting toolbelt skills because only Engi has those? Should Weaver not have attunements since other classes can't dual attune? Should Daredevil only have 2 dodges because that's how many everyone else has?

> > > >

> > > > No the problem appears to lie in your fundamental understanding of when to use dodge and when to not use it as a mesmer.

> > > > EXAMPLE 1: You are not being attacked for significant damage, so you do not dodge. Instead you rotate through your non-ambush skills like normal or do something else.

> > > > EXAMPLE 2: Your teammate is about to trigger full counter and the warrior is on top of you, you press dodge and once full counter activates (if you timed it right) you'll still be under mirage cloak and you can still activate your ambush skill.

> > > >

> > > > The ability or inability to properly utilize your dodges so that you both evade a critical damaging ability and subsequently deliver one yourself is solely on you. It has nothing to do with tradeoffs. It has everything to do with you not understanding that you save mirage cloak + ambush for the right moment.

> > > >

> > > > Further, I maintain that mesmer has become a straight upgrade on anything thief actually does and that, while I have no idea who edgelord is, I don't care because I retain the right to make someone's position on an issue into a meme whenever I want.

> > >

> > > Or your playstyle isn't advanced enough to realize when to use Mirage Cloak offensively, also you mistakenly tried to use a False Dilemma argument here, there are far more instances in combat you could use Mirage Cloak for, including offensively. And do tell me, which Mirage ambush is truly critically damaging on it's own such that saving it is necessary for the absolute right time? If anything that's as predictable as it gets.

> > >

> > > You're just another thief main that gets all uppity whenever literally anyone has any advantage over them.

> >

> > I literally just explained to you the best way to use mirage cloak, are you capable of reading text or are you not? Or are you trying to say it's best to use mirage cloak offensively only and ignore the dodge function that goes with it? I literally don't know what you're trying to say here because it doesn't make sense.

> >

> > The best use of mirage cloak is to dodge an important damaging ability and then use your ambush. There's no debating that point. As a mesmer main I'm kind of disappointed you would even try to argue that frankly, it proves to me and everyone that you aren't interested in balance, you just want to protect your op mesmer baby class.

> >

> > Look man, nobody wants anet to destroy mesmer as a class, but when it completely eliminates the need for other classes because it ACTUALLY does every role better than that class it needs to be changed. Again if you're going to debate that point you aren't interested in balance.

>

> I'm not saying to only use it offensively, it seems like you're missing the point that you can also use it that way, and the best tactic is to use it in a mix of offensive and defensive cloaks. It seems like it's you who is incapable of understanding text. There isn't a unilaterally 'best' way to use Mirage Cloak since it has both offensive and defensive functions, you need to read the flow of battle and decide when it is best to use it offensively or defensively.

>

> You haven't even said what you would fix, I can't agree or disagree with the type of balance you would want if you don't say it. In fact, every single time you have bothered talking to me about it, it has been to be rude or to propose nothing constructive. If you cared about balance you would try to have a discussion about it instead of being a jerk and throwing memes at people.

>

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > As a thief main the truth of your words makes me hate you and this is going in my sig someday

>

> r/quityourbullshit

 

No, there is a definitive best way to use mirage cloak, and that is to avoid the most damage while also helping your team the most yourself. I don't think that's debatable or requiring explanation.

 

As for what mesmer should lose, I think it should lose mobility - either on the weapons or in the utilities, and have those skills worked into something else. Because right now imo that's the thing mesmer has taken from thieves unjustifiably - you can keep portal, it's an extremely good skill with a reasonably long cooldown, and is enough by itself to stop thieves from repeatedly stealing nodes. You don't need sword 1 and staff 4 and blink and such on top of it when you already have so many other mechanics helping you.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> guys guys, I almost 1v1'ed a Mesmer. But then he was like lolz, and vanished over the horizon.

>

 

Scourge OP !!!!1111

Raise your pitchforks lads ! We got new target !

/jk

I'm surprised how much scourge can facetank with bloodmagic :')

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Again trying to defend the ret class.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Also I forget to mention the free dodge every heal.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > And again defend attack on dodge.

> > > > > > > > > > > > /applause

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Blurred frenzy is to evade while recovering cds

> > > > > > > > > > > > stop acting dumb please.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > ahahahahahahahahahahahahaahha?

> > > > > > > > > > > What free dodge every heal ?????????????? You complaint about adventurer rune? EVERYONE CAN USE IT , stop acting dumb

> > > > > > > > > > > Yes , defend mechanic we get which we get for dropping Chrono/other traitlines.

> > > > > > > > > > > Any evade skill let recover cds while evading, stop acting dumb

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I think he's talking about False Oasis lol.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Guess you didn't have to explain to him.

> > > > > > > > > He was deliberately trolling or does not play mesmer.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > However turtle, class mechanic is ambush, not mirage cloak.

> > > > > > > > > They decided to give the ambush while in mirage cloak, but the mesmer feature is to activate a new skill while dodging ( like thief while in stealth ).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The fact that he can cast it while dodging makes him too good.

> > > > > > > > > It could simply be changed giving mesmer a choice.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I see no reason to give a class a mechanic which can't be countered, and for what he does not have to trade anything ( while i dodge, i dodge. i don't deal dmg nor i am able to cast all the skill is want.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The dodge is a trade off if you use it offensively you can't use it defensively funny how that works. Jfc Mirage Cloak+Ambush are the Mirage main mechanics, both of them are. Stop cherry picking.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It's not a trade off.

> > > > > > > If I put pressure on you you dodge, and while dodging you also deal dmg. Or with your ambush or another skill.

> > > > > > > If you put pressure on me and i dodge, i simply dodge.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It's not that hard to understand where the problem lies.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The problem appears to lie in your fundamental understanding of how Mirage works. e.g. using dodge offensively, _WHEN THERE IS NO IMMINENT DANGER IN ORDER TO DEAL MORE DAMAGE_, is the trade off since _YOU NO LONGER GET TO USE THAT DODGE FOR DEFENSE WITHIN THE NEXT FEW SECONDS_

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That first point is incorrect, while dodging you only deal damage with ambushes or other skills the dodge itself does not do damage unlike Daredevil. I think you also have deficiency in understanding what a unique class mechanic is. Should other classes start getting toolbelt skills because only Engi has those? Should Weaver not have attunements since other classes can't dual attune? Should Daredevil only have 2 dodges because that's how many everyone else has?

> > > > >

> > > > > No the problem appears to lie in your fundamental understanding of when to use dodge and when to not use it as a mesmer.

> > > > > EXAMPLE 1: You are not being attacked for significant damage, so you do not dodge. Instead you rotate through your non-ambush skills like normal or do something else.

> > > > > EXAMPLE 2: Your teammate is about to trigger full counter and the warrior is on top of you, you press dodge and once full counter activates (if you timed it right) you'll still be under mirage cloak and you can still activate your ambush skill.

> > > > >

> > > > > The ability or inability to properly utilize your dodges so that you both evade a critical damaging ability and subsequently deliver one yourself is solely on you. It has nothing to do with tradeoffs. It has everything to do with you not understanding that you save mirage cloak + ambush for the right moment.

> > > > >

> > > > > Further, I maintain that mesmer has become a straight upgrade on anything thief actually does and that, while I have no idea who edgelord is, I don't care because I retain the right to make someone's position on an issue into a meme whenever I want.

> > > >

> > > > Or your playstyle isn't advanced enough to realize when to use Mirage Cloak offensively, also you mistakenly tried to use a False Dilemma argument here, there are far more instances in combat you could use Mirage Cloak for, including offensively. And do tell me, which Mirage ambush is truly critically damaging on it's own such that saving it is necessary for the absolute right time? If anything that's as predictable as it gets.

> > > >

> > > > You're just another thief main that gets all uppity whenever literally anyone has any advantage over them.

> > >

> > > I literally just explained to you the best way to use mirage cloak, are you capable of reading text or are you not? Or are you trying to say it's best to use mirage cloak offensively only and ignore the dodge function that goes with it? I literally don't know what you're trying to say here because it doesn't make sense.

> > >

> > > The best use of mirage cloak is to dodge an important damaging ability and then use your ambush. There's no debating that point. As a mesmer main I'm kind of disappointed you would even try to argue that frankly, it proves to me and everyone that you aren't interested in balance, you just want to protect your op mesmer baby class.

> > >

> > > Look man, nobody wants anet to destroy mesmer as a class, but when it completely eliminates the need for other classes because it ACTUALLY does every role better than that class it needs to be changed. Again if you're going to debate that point you aren't interested in balance.

> >

> > I'm not saying to only use it offensively, it seems like you're missing the point that you can also use it that way, and the best tactic is to use it in a mix of offensive and defensive cloaks. It seems like it's you who is incapable of understanding text. There isn't a unilaterally 'best' way to use Mirage Cloak since it has both offensive and defensive functions, you need to read the flow of battle and decide when it is best to use it offensively or defensively.

> >

> > You haven't even said what you would fix, I can't agree or disagree with the type of balance you would want if you don't say it. In fact, every single time you have bothered talking to me about it, it has been to be rude or to propose nothing constructive. If you cared about balance you would try to have a discussion about it instead of being a jerk and throwing memes at people.

> >

> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > As a thief main the truth of your words makes me hate you and this is going in my sig someday

> >

> > r/quityourbullshit

>

> No, there is a definitive best way to use mirage cloak, and that is to avoid the most damage while also helping your team the most yourself. I don't think that's debatable or requiring explanation.

>

> As for what mesmer should lose, I think it should lose mobility - either on the weapons or in the utilities, and have those skills worked into something else. Because right now imo that's the thing mesmer has taken from thieves unjustifiably - you can keep portal, it's an extremely good skill with a reasonably long cooldown, and is enough by itself to stop thieves from repeatedly stealing nodes. You don't need sword 1 and staff 4 and blink and such on top of it when you already have so many other mechanics helping you.

 

I agree with that to some extent. Seeing as Mesmers are the middle class for HP pool I don't think we need as much mobility. Personally I take issue with the Sword Ambush because it's got too much going on for one skill that can be used so frequently and sword already had a gap closer anyway, it'd not like it needed another one on steroids. Did you mean Staff 2? And as far the other mobility skills I think the others are reasonable although I'm pretty sure we only have Jaunt because of Mirage Mirrors (I haven't met anyone who likes them tbh). As for Blink, Mirage Advance, and Illusionary Ambush, I suppose they could take a slight cd increase in PvP. Although I'm unsure of how popular Mirage Advance is because I don't see it much.

I'd like it better if they just gave us a different non movement elite skill, got rid of the mirrors and sprinkled in a small amount of active endurance generation. Active being you have to use a skill or a trait causes it under a specific condition or something I dunno, it just seems weird to have a spec that changes dodge as the main feature than doesn't really do anything to help with endurance generation besides Vigor.

[Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046]

tldr: Broken.

 

Remember when one trait was the scourge of the necromancers and everyone complained because 1 burn stack on CRIT in Deathshroud on a slow cast AA was too OP.

 

yeah..look where we are now..

[witcher.3197]

> @"Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046" said:

> tldr: Broken.

>

> Remember when one trait was the scourge of the necromancers and everyone complained because 1 burn stack on CRIT in Deathshroud on a slow cast AA was too OP.

>

> yeah..look where we are now..

 

and it was single target too lol

 

If someone ever writes a book about powercreep, GW2 expansions should take up the entire cover

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

And we're walking in circles again...Exclude portal (core mes) thieves have more mobility than mes.

 

What I like the most aboud this thread is the ones crying harder for nerfs are thieves and I've seen this movie before.

PU gots buffed back in the day - thieves reaction "omg mes have too much stealth! unfair! no one should have as much stealth as thieves!"

Mirage has evades - thieves reaction "too many evades! unfair! no one should have as many evades as thieves!"

Mirage has mobility - thieves reaction "too much mobility! unfair! no one should have as much mobility as thieves!"

 

Like I said above, relax thieves, you still have your unique mechanic - QQ!

 

[Legatus.3608]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again trying to defend the ret class.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Also I forget to mention the free dodge every heal.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > And again defend attack on dodge.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > /applause

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Blurred frenzy is to evade while recovering cds

> > > > > > > > > > > > > stop acting dumb please.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > ahahahahahahahahahahahahaahha?

> > > > > > > > > > > > What free dodge every heal ?????????????? You complaint about adventurer rune? EVERYONE CAN USE IT , stop acting dumb

> > > > > > > > > > > > Yes , defend mechanic we get which we get for dropping Chrono/other traitlines.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Any evade skill let recover cds while evading, stop acting dumb

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I think he's talking about False Oasis lol.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Guess you didn't have to explain to him.

> > > > > > > > > > He was deliberately trolling or does not play mesmer.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > However turtle, class mechanic is ambush, not mirage cloak.

> > > > > > > > > > They decided to give the ambush while in mirage cloak, but the mesmer feature is to activate a new skill while dodging ( like thief while in stealth ).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The fact that he can cast it while dodging makes him too good.

> > > > > > > > > > It could simply be changed giving mesmer a choice.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I see no reason to give a class a mechanic which can't be countered, and for what he does not have to trade anything ( while i dodge, i dodge. i don't deal dmg nor i am able to cast all the skill is want.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The dodge is a trade off if you use it offensively you can't use it defensively funny how that works. Jfc Mirage Cloak+Ambush are the Mirage main mechanics, both of them are. Stop cherry picking.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It's not a trade off.

> > > > > > > > If I put pressure on you you dodge, and while dodging you also deal dmg. Or with your ambush or another skill.

> > > > > > > > If you put pressure on me and i dodge, i simply dodge.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It's not that hard to understand where the problem lies.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The problem appears to lie in your fundamental understanding of how Mirage works. e.g. using dodge offensively, _WHEN THERE IS NO IMMINENT DANGER IN ORDER TO DEAL MORE DAMAGE_, is the trade off since _YOU NO LONGER GET TO USE THAT DODGE FOR DEFENSE WITHIN THE NEXT FEW SECONDS_

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That first point is incorrect, while dodging you only deal damage with ambushes or other skills the dodge itself does not do damage unlike Daredevil. I think you also have deficiency in understanding what a unique class mechanic is. Should other classes start getting toolbelt skills because only Engi has those? Should Weaver not have attunements since other classes can't dual attune? Should Daredevil only have 2 dodges because that's how many everyone else has?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No the problem appears to lie in your fundamental understanding of when to use dodge and when to not use it as a mesmer.

> > > > > > EXAMPLE 1: You are not being attacked for significant damage, so you do not dodge. Instead you rotate through your non-ambush skills like normal or do something else.

> > > > > > EXAMPLE 2: Your teammate is about to trigger full counter and the warrior is on top of you, you press dodge and once full counter activates (if you timed it right) you'll still be under mirage cloak and you can still activate your ambush skill.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The ability or inability to properly utilize your dodges so that you both evade a critical damaging ability and subsequently deliver one yourself is solely on you. It has nothing to do with tradeoffs. It has everything to do with you not understanding that you save mirage cloak + ambush for the right moment.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Further, I maintain that mesmer has become a straight upgrade on anything thief actually does and that, while I have no idea who edgelord is, I don't care because I retain the right to make someone's position on an issue into a meme whenever I want.

> > > > >

> > > > > Or your playstyle isn't advanced enough to realize when to use Mirage Cloak offensively, also you mistakenly tried to use a False Dilemma argument here, there are far more instances in combat you could use Mirage Cloak for, including offensively. And do tell me, which Mirage ambush is truly critically damaging on it's own such that saving it is necessary for the absolute right time? If anything that's as predictable as it gets.

> > > > >

> > > > > You're just another thief main that gets all uppity whenever literally anyone has any advantage over them.

> > > >

> > > > I literally just explained to you the best way to use mirage cloak, are you capable of reading text or are you not? Or are you trying to say it's best to use mirage cloak offensively only and ignore the dodge function that goes with it? I literally don't know what you're trying to say here because it doesn't make sense.

> > > >

> > > > The best use of mirage cloak is to dodge an important damaging ability and then use your ambush. There's no debating that point. As a mesmer main I'm kind of disappointed you would even try to argue that frankly, it proves to me and everyone that you aren't interested in balance, you just want to protect your op mesmer baby class.

> > > >

> > > > Look man, nobody wants anet to destroy mesmer as a class, but when it completely eliminates the need for other classes because it ACTUALLY does every role better than that class it needs to be changed. Again if you're going to debate that point you aren't interested in balance.

> > >

> > > I'm not saying to only use it offensively, it seems like you're missing the point that you can also use it that way, and the best tactic is to use it in a mix of offensive and defensive cloaks. It seems like it's you who is incapable of understanding text. There isn't a unilaterally 'best' way to use Mirage Cloak since it has both offensive and defensive functions, you need to read the flow of battle and decide when it is best to use it offensively or defensively.

> > >

> > > You haven't even said what you would fix, I can't agree or disagree with the type of balance you would want if you don't say it. In fact, every single time you have bothered talking to me about it, it has been to be rude or to propose nothing constructive. If you cared about balance you would try to have a discussion about it instead of being a jerk and throwing memes at people.

> > >

> > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > As a thief main the truth of your words makes me hate you and this is going in my sig someday

> > >

> > > r/quityourbullshit

> >

> > No, there is a definitive best way to use mirage cloak, and that is to avoid the most damage while also helping your team the most yourself. I don't think that's debatable or requiring explanation.

> >

> > As for what mesmer should lose, I think it should lose mobility - either on the weapons or in the utilities, and have those skills worked into something else. Because right now imo that's the thing mesmer has taken from thieves unjustifiably - you can keep portal, it's an extremely good skill with a reasonably long cooldown, and is enough by itself to stop thieves from repeatedly stealing nodes. You don't need sword 1 and staff 4 and blink and such on top of it when you already have so many other mechanics helping you.

>

> I agree with that to some extent. Seeing as Mesmers are the middle class for HP pool I don't think we need as much mobility. Personally I take issue with the Sword Ambush because it's got too much going on for one skill that can be used so frequently and sword already had a gap closer anyway, it'd not like it needed another one on steroids. Did you mean Staff 2? And as far the other mobility skills I think the others are reasonable although I'm pretty sure we only have Jaunt because of Mirage Mirrors (I haven't met anyone who likes them tbh). As for Blink, Mirage Advance, and Illusionary Ambush, I suppose they could take a slight cd increase in PvP. Although I'm unsure of how popular Mirage Advance is because I don't see it much.

> I'd like it better if they just gave us a different non movement elite skill, got rid of the mirrors and sprinkled in a small amount of active endurance generation. Active being you have to use a skill or a trait causes it under a specific condition or something I dunno, it just seems weird to have a spec that changes dodge as the main feature than doesn't really do anything to help with endurance generation besides Vigor.

 

We agree on something! See it is possible.

 

What's funny about that though is I was actually hoping you would disagree with me on this one point specifically, because TBH I don't like what the thief does in the meta - being forced into a decap +1 role means that it will always only be viable to have exactly 1 thief, and I think that's bad for thieves and for the meta in general. I definitely think the best thing for the game overall is to take some of thief's mobility and give it more utility or HP or something else (maybe improve the steal mechanic), but I digress.

 

However, if you're asking me what should be done specifically TO MESMER to balance the game - I do think less mobility is the way to go.

 

(And yeah you're right, I did obviously mean staff 2 not staff 4)

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> And we're walking in circles again...Exclude portal (core mes) thieves have more mobility than mes.

>

> What I like the most aboud this thread is the ones crying harder for nerfs are thieves and I've seen this movie before.

> PU gots buffed back in the day - thieves reaction "omg mes have too much stealth! unfair! no one should have as much stealth as thieves!"

> Mirage has evades - thieves reaction "too many evades! unfair! no one should have as many evades as thieves!"

> Mirage has mobility - thieves reaction "too much mobility! unfair! no one should have as much mobility as thieves!"

>

> Like I said above, relax thieves, you still have your unique mechanic - QQ!

>

 

It seems more like a thief design issue since honestly aside from mobility and stealth there's literally nothing interesting about them.

[Legatus.3608]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > It's not a repeated lie, mesmer has been capable of maintaining permanent evade uptime for quite a long time. It is obviously not possible for a class to have more evade uptime than PERMANENT evade. The mistake they are making is that most mesmers don't use PERMANENT evade in pvp (since nobody NEEDS permanent evade and some of those evades are better spent on utility or damage), and that the sigils required for mesmer to have permanent evade uptime have been nerfed in pvp.

> >

> > Yeah you can maintain permaevade or close to it, you only need to have adv runes, sigils of energy, false oasis, illusionary ambush, crystal sands, sand through glass and do nothing but spamming evades, mirrors and shatters, similar to Sanic DD back then (which I didn't saw anyone complaining about, QQ is kind of thieves' unique mechanic)

> > So be my guess and take mirrors out of crystal sands and sand through glass, no one uses them either way.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > **So Anet must do something about CHRONOPHANTASMA before nerfing Mesmer anywhere. Nerfing Mesmer everywhere but not Chronophantasma to keep it for PVE its not how you deal with a problem.**

> >

> > I would add something to help with these evades spams everyone talks about and doesn't exist, make mirage cloak a boon so it can be corrupt or stripped.

> > (My plan is for mirage cloak duration to be increased by concentration so everyone cries even more :) )

>

> You are wrong about perma evades .

> You need desert distortion,signet of illusions, mimic ,to mimic signet ofc (for 3 times f4 and 9 mirrors! 12 seconds of invul,9 seconds of evades from this omagaaaaaaad),mirage heal , ambush, crystal sands, mirage breakstun ,so you can be untouchable for a very long time! (sigil of energy ,adventurer ofc too).

> What i have done? It was a secret build for easly monthly win ... :(

>

> Why you mention core problem of memser balance and talk about ideas that only Shirliass can come up with :< . Such disrespect

>

 

I was actually referring to the normal condi mesmer axe PVE build that was prevalent before the phantasm rework, and I inferred as much in my initial post, but whatever I'll let this one go.

 

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > And we're walking in circles again...Exclude portal (core mes) thieves have more mobility than mes.

> >

> > What I like the most aboud this thread is the ones crying harder for nerfs are thieves and I've seen this movie before.

> > PU gots buffed back in the day - thieves reaction "omg mes have too much stealth! unfair! no one should have as much stealth as thieves!"

> > Mirage has evades - thieves reaction "too many evades! unfair! no one should have as many evades as thieves!"

> > Mirage has mobility - thieves reaction "too much mobility! unfair! no one should have as much mobility as thieves!"

> >

> > Like I said above, relax thieves, you still have your unique mechanic - QQ!

> >

>

> It seems more like a thief design issue since honestly aside from mobility and stealth there's literally nothing interesting about them.

 

That's exactly correct. And stealth really is kind of pointless in this game in the first place, it doesn't actually DO anything. If people aren't attacking you in conquest because you're stealthed, they're going to be capping a node or attacking a teammate. It's really just a detriment to your team most of the time when being able to actually win the fight 1v1 would've been preferable.

 

So thief has dodges and mobility basically, and not a whole lot else. The burst people complain about on thief is really not justified whining - most other classes do a way better job of oneshotting than thief does. So of course, when mesmer gets as much mobility and evades as thief, thief is going to be pushed out of the meta. It's just the natural conclusion of those changes. This is why I think mobility is the target for mesmer and why I think thief needs to do... something else, so that having 2 is not an instaloss.

 

I'd like to see mesmer lose 1 mobility skill to start with (sword ambush in particular) and see if it needs more changes from there, and for steal to be reworked into something that actually gives thief some identity - as it is steal amounts to a teleport with an interrupt most of the time. That guy complaining about how broken the mesmer steal is really needs to put some thought into how long those buffs last.

[Turk.5460]

Was the merged Scourge complaints thread even 25 pages?

[Math.5123]

After 25 pages, it's impossible they let Chaos Chrono / Mirage be for an entire season. Right? .. Right?

[kappa.2036]

C'mon guys, mesmer have ONLY 3 meta builds and other 3-4 really good builds while other classes are not even meta! :)