Feedback on the State of the Mesmer [merged]

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> You guys need to stop replying / taking seriously a silver player. It will be better for your health in the long run.

 

The real question is whether Anet reads and takes what they say seriously.

 

This person has been going around the forums making posts about how bad core mesmer is for YEARS, while at the same time refusing to adapt to another build and just mindlessly asking for changes.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> For the rest; **Let me put it this way, I can beat a Mirage or Chronomancer as often as not on a core Mesmer. I A SILVER DIVISION PLAYER can force them into defensive mode and often intimidate them on a core class.**

>

> This is a learn to play issue.

 

I believe you need a lesson in how the matchmaking works. There is an mmr cap when matching players to ensure players of widely different skill almost never end up in the same game. If you are silver your understanding of the top end skill level is skewed because you have likely never actually fought good players. This is both in ranked and unranked. The fact is you should be seeing multiple platinum/legendary players with top 250 titles in pretty much all your games and if you aren't your mmr is simply not high enough for you to see what really happens in the meta.

 

Of course you can destroy silver rated and low gold rated mesmers. It's a known fact that mesmer is a higher skill floor+ceiling class and is less effective at lower elo. Gold II and lower mesmers don't know how to deal with pressure and can be killed with any class simply by autoattacking them and dodging their clones. This strategy does not work against decent mesmers because the good ones know how to exploit evades/stealth/teleports so that they are always attacking and defending at the same time. The fact that you say "force them into defensive mode" is very telling and honestly many of us would be able to guess you are in silver/low gold just from that statement alone. When mesmer is played properly at high enough level, their defense and offense becomes intrinsically interwoven as to be the same thing.

 

So yes, it is an L2P issue. But in the exact opposite way you think.

 

 

 

[Blackdagger.9670]

I've said this countless times, here we are nothing has changed.; Mesmer has been and currently is the most overpowered and favoured class of all times in gw2 history.

check season eras before PoF, and HoT era, mesmer has always dominated pvp, in every shape. Some players really started to believe that Chief pvp designer mains a mesmer, thats why this profession is always favoured by them. In fact, its no joke anymore. Things are getting troubling about mesmer.

 

No Anet, your re-design of mesmer is just another fail, I am sorry.

No Anet, mesmer is far away from being balanced.

 

 

Actually, How do you effort losing good players of pvp community every day? I mean lots of experienced old players quited the game and long gone. They are not even planning to come back any soon, (Recently had a conversation with Kervv from old [vM] he told me, show me one good reason for us to come back to this game.. and I couldn't reply... cuz he was so right)

 

Remember how Jay Wilson destroyed Diablo franchise? Well Anet, you had to take lessons from that failure. Mentioning about that game on purpose, because if any player here has ever played Diablo III, would surely understand my reference. There are close similarities with skill dynamics, traits with gw2. Not saying or claiming anything, just emphasizing when you are inspired from some other game and creating your own RPG, you also need to consider their failures. In this case, please remember How Blizzard took an action and replaced Jay Wilson after what he had done to that game and look how they managed to keep their player base still, after all those years. Long story short, YOU NEED TO TAKE action if there are some kind of replacements needed in PvP designing department. Maybe hire fresh blood? I think, it is about time.

[Chaith.8256]

Go 22kills 1death as Sword/Shield Holosmith in unranked,

 

TFW Ithilwen happened to be on the enemy team for that one death... NotLikeThis

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > > > It's about time that other players actually had to think to play against a Mesmer and target the real Mesmer instead of simply cleaving the clones with auto attack, ( or any type of aoe, ) and ignoring them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is a learn to play issue.

> > > > > Dear silver division player: Thanks for the laugh!

> > > > >

> > > > > If you were skillful enough to use your classes full potential, you would have noticed that you can do an almost perfect rotation of range, distorsion and evades while spamming and shatter stuff. Even if your opponent tracks you for about 90% of the fight (which is super easy but useless), it is impossible to pressure you enough to force you into defense (and create momentum) or even kill you.

> > > > >

> > > > > This class has more training wheels than warrior ever had.

> > > >

> > > > Silver Division player? Yes, proudly so. I fought my way from Bronze 1 to Silver 3, learning the hard way at every step. This is in spite of having physical problems with my left hand and the fact that I choose to play a core Mesmer, ( partly in protest of the way Chronomancer was treated with respect to nerfs and alacrity and partly simply because I like core Mesmer. ) I hope to be in Gold next season.

> > > >

> > > > For the rest; **Let me put it this way, I can beat a Mirage or Chronomancer as often as not on a core Mesmer. I A SILVER DIVISION PLAYER can force them into defensive mode and often intimidate them on a core class.**

> > > >

> > > > This is a learn to play issue.

> > >

> > > Ohhhh. I've always wondered why your perceptions and thoughts never really made much sense. Seeing as how you're a silver player, I can now see why you say the things you do.

> > >

> > > Despite your physical limitations, you **are** a silver player. You obviously don't have any experience fighting against good players, hence why it always sounds like you're coming from a place of extreme inexperience.

> > >

> > > To put it simply, gold players are below average. Silver and bronze consist of players who really don't know what they're doing. It's in these divisions which you'll find people double capping points, 3 manning a beast, and/or generally have poor mechanics. Not trying to be mean, but you being able to beat a Mirage/Chrono in **SILVER** division as a core mesmer means absolutely nothing. Good players in plat 2 or higher can completely (and easily) destroy multiple players at the same time from the lower divisions. Even more so as a Mirage/Chronomancer.

> > >

> > > **This is why Anet should display rank badges next to players' forum names. This way it would be a lot easier to tell who to take seriously and who to not.**

> >

> > Because rank is forum validity?

> > Most of the good players stopped ranked a few seasons ago and mostly stick to unranked and AT's... It's just the scraplings that are left that finally have a chance to be on the leader board that are still playing in that cesspool.... The desperate, if you will.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> 100% agree that rank is idiotic. Not saying that we shouldn’t take what is being with s grain of salt though.

>

 

Using rank as forum validity is what urks me... Could always use playtime/hours played, although it's quite discomforting when you look at 9 thousand hours or more.

[Aurelius.6829]

> @"michelada.2947" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > The Mesmer redesign was expressly to force shattering. That requires that we have clones. So, ANET cannot reduce clones without either completely reverting the most recent redesign or utterly crippling Mesmer.

> >

> > It's about time that other players actually had to think to play against a Mesmer and target the real Mesmer instead of simply cleaving the clones with auto attack, ( or any type of aoe, ) and ignoring them.

> >

> > This is a learn to play issue.

>

> oh yeah let me focus that mesmer, block block block block, oh i can atack him now!!!, block block block block, 3 clones + 1 phantasm that hit's for 10k i'm death GG, against mirage is not that different.

 

that is incorrect.

the mesmer is supposed to have at least 2 phantasms if he blocked twice.

[FyzE.3472]

> @"Blackdagger.9670" said:

> I've said this countless times, here we are nothing has changed.; Mesmer has been and currently is the most overpowered and favoured class of all times in gw2 history.

> check season eras before PoF, and HoT era, mesmer has always dominated pvp, in every shape. Some players really started to believe that Chief pvp designer mains a mesmer, thats why this profession is always favoured by them. In fact, its no joke anymore. Things are getting troubling about mesmer.

>

> No Anet, your re-design of mesmer is just another fail, I am sorry.

> No Anet, mesmer is far away from being balanced.

>

>

> Actually, How do you effort losing good players of pvp community every day? I mean lots of experienced old players quited the game and long gone. They are not even planning to come back any soon, (Recently had a conversation with Kervv from old [vM] he told me, show me one good reason for us to come back to this game.. and I couldn't reply... cuz he was so right)

>

> Remember how Jay Wilson destroyed Diablo franchise? Well Anet, you had to take lessons from that failure. Mentioning about that game on purpose, because if any player here has ever played Diablo III, would surely understand my reference. There are close similarities with skill dynamics, traits with gw2. Not saying or claiming anything, just emphasizing when you are inspired from some other game and creating your own RPG, you also need to consider their failures. In this case, please remember How Blizzard took an action and replaced Jay Wilson after what he had done to that game and look how they managed to keep their player base still, after all those years. Long story short, YOU NEED TO TAKE action if there are some kind of replacements needed in PvP designing department. Maybe hire fresh blood? I think, it is about time.

 

Also because of D3 failure, a game called Path of Exile appeared and became even more popular than D3. Also F2P.

[Blackdagger.9670]

> @"FyzE.3472" said:

 

> Also because of D3 failure, a game called Path of Exile appeared and became even more popular than D3. Also F2P.

 

Exactly, that's a decent game. My point is, Even Diablo III franchise has pulled itself together after some necessarry replacements on departments. Look at it now, it's a totally different game when compared to it's first release.

 

 

 

[apharma.3741]

> @"Blackdagger.9670" said:

> > @"FyzE.3472" said:

>

> > Also because of D3 failure, a game called Path of Exile appeared and became even more popular than D3. Also F2P.

>

> Exactly, that's a decent game. My point is, Even Diablo III franchise has pulled itself together after some necessarry replacements on departments. Look at it now, it's a totally different game when compared to it's first release.

>

>

>

 

It’s still boring to play once you realise that torment pretty much just increases the damage everything does to you while increasing their health. One of the reasons D2 was interesting on hell mode was that enemies had resistances as well as random maps but even that got boring once you got your gear sorted.

 

Sure you can start a new character every ladder season and play the same game again but at that point I might as well start playing something like ME1-3 trying to be the galaxys biggest kitten or something you’ve not done in those games, maybe be a decent human being in the games, would be a new experience to many on these forums, not aimed at you btw.

[BlackBeard.2873]

Yes, mesmer is overpowered because it has too much pressure for a spec that cannot be effectively punished when played well.

 

The whole discussion about player level doesn't make mesmer any less OP. Here is how it works:

 

Your ranking at any time is a function of your own skill + the power of your build. If you are a great player on a crappy build, you can overcome some of that weakness to reach a high tier, but you will end up in a tier where you are constantly out-playing your opponents (making fewer mistakes, better punishing their mistakes) to keep your rank.

 

As you go up in rank, players make fewer and fewer mistakes to punish, and build power becomes paramount. In silver, and even gold, someone playing the most OP build can still be outplayed by a better player with a bad build because they make enough mistakes to be punished and defeated. When you reach higher tiers, people stop making as many personal mistakes, and utilize their characters more effectively, leaving mostly rotational and class-inherent weaknesses to be exploited (with a few mechanical mistakes here and there).

 

TLDR: A silver player, regardless of build, will make enough mistakes that any build can beat any build, with the biggest determinant being player skill. A plat player will make fewer mistakes on their own, leaving only inherent class/build-based weaknesses to be more apparent. When in plat+, mesmer is an absolute monster because it just isn't inherently weak to any strategy.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > > > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > > > > It's about time that other players actually had to think to play against a Mesmer and target the real Mesmer instead of simply cleaving the clones with auto attack, ( or any type of aoe, ) and ignoring them.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is a learn to play issue.

> > > > > > Dear silver division player: Thanks for the laugh!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you were skillful enough to use your classes full potential, you would have noticed that you can do an almost perfect rotation of range, distorsion and evades while spamming and shatter stuff. Even if your opponent tracks you for about 90% of the fight (which is super easy but useless), it is impossible to pressure you enough to force you into defense (and create momentum) or even kill you.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This class has more training wheels than warrior ever had.

> > > > >

> > > > > Silver Division player? Yes, proudly so. I fought my way from Bronze 1 to Silver 3, learning the hard way at every step. This is in spite of having physical problems with my left hand and the fact that I choose to play a core Mesmer, ( partly in protest of the way Chronomancer was treated with respect to nerfs and alacrity and partly simply because I like core Mesmer. ) I hope to be in Gold next season.

> > > > >

> > > > > For the rest; **Let me put it this way, I can beat a Mirage or Chronomancer as often as not on a core Mesmer. I A SILVER DIVISION PLAYER can force them into defensive mode and often intimidate them on a core class.**

> > > > >

> > > > > This is a learn to play issue.

> > > >

> > > > Ohhhh. I've always wondered why your perceptions and thoughts never really made much sense. Seeing as how you're a silver player, I can now see why you say the things you do.

> > > >

> > > > Despite your physical limitations, you **are** a silver player. You obviously don't have any experience fighting against good players, hence why it always sounds like you're coming from a place of extreme inexperience.

> > > >

> > > > To put it simply, gold players are below average. Silver and bronze consist of players who really don't know what they're doing. It's in these divisions which you'll find people double capping points, 3 manning a beast, and/or generally have poor mechanics. Not trying to be mean, but you being able to beat a Mirage/Chrono in **SILVER** division as a core mesmer means absolutely nothing. Good players in plat 2 or higher can completely (and easily) destroy multiple players at the same time from the lower divisions. Even more so as a Mirage/Chronomancer.

> > > >

> > > > **This is why Anet should display rank badges next to players' forum names. This way it would be a lot easier to tell who to take seriously and who to not.**

> > >

> > > Because rank is forum validity?

> > > Most of the good players stopped ranked a few seasons ago and mostly stick to unranked and AT's... It's just the scraplings that are left that finally have a chance to be on the leader board that are still playing in that cesspool.... The desperate, if you will.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > 100% agree that rank is idiotic. Not saying that we shouldn’t take what is being with s grain of salt though.

> >

>

> Using rank as forum validity is what urks me... Could always use playtime/hours played, although it's quite discomforting when you look at 9 thousand hours or more.

 

If it makes you uncomfortable to look at 9k+ hours played, you had better put on a seat belt before you look at my account's /age.

[Aza.2105]

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > The Mesmer redesign was expressly to force shattering. That requires that we have clones. So, ANET cannot reduce clones without either completely reverting the most recent redesign or utterly crippling Mesmer.

> > >

> > > It's about time that other players actually had to think to play against a Mesmer and target the real Mesmer instead of simply cleaving the clones with auto attack, ( or any type of aoe, ) and ignoring them.

> > >

> > > This is a learn to play issue.

> >

> > Want to know what's a l2p issue? Playing something that isn't a Mesmer. Go try it out and let us know how it feels.

>

> I played soul beast for a while the other day. Once I got used to merging it was fun to play and I don’t see why it isn’t used more. Well I do, Druid’s tanking ability is hard to beat.

> Oh and I played deadeye for a few matches and got bored of it pretty quick, I prefer d/p. Can’t forget scourge either. Scourge is... well we all know it’s ridiculous at the moment. The ability to lay AoE like it does in a conquest game mode is just silly.

>

> That’s about it though. I dislike guard, war, rev, engi and ele so don’t get on them much. Overall I feel like boons are out of control across all classes, expertise and concentration need removed from the game, conditions need an overhaul to be high intensity/low duration low intensity/high duration. Confounding suggestions needs either reworked or replaced with a different trait to eliminate the synergy between it, mental anguish, and MoD. Elusive Mind needs either an icd or the stun break removed and replaced with something else.

> Umm I feel that warrior is pigeoned holed into adrenal health and healing Signet which has too much synergy and the other heals need work. Also Sand Savant needs to be reworked to provide the Scourge with a benefit like stab rather than making shades huge.

>

> I could go on if you’d like.

 

You the truth now bro. This is everything summed up nicely.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> Go 22kills 1death as Sword/Shield Holosmith in unranked,

>

> TFW Ithilwen happened to be on the enemy team for that one death... NotLikeThis

 

I happened to cause that one death.

 

~ But to return to the point of the discussion of that photo ~ I do in fact have credible skills and am qualified to comment. That was the entire point of the photo discussion.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > The Mesmer redesign was expressly to force shattering. That requires that we have clones. So, ANET cannot reduce clones without either completely reverting the most recent redesign or utterly crippling Mesmer.

> >

> > It's about time that other players actually had to think to play against a Mesmer and target the real Mesmer instead of simply cleaving the clones with auto attack, ( or any type of aoe, ) and ignoring them.

> >

> > This is a learn to play issue.

>

> Want to know what's a l2p issue? Playing something that isn't a Mesmer. Go try it out and let us know how it feels.

 

I have. In point of fact, I got my "Ascension" back piece on my alt account during the "Year of the Ascension." That required playing and winning on every class. I'm aware of the other classes, I just prefer Mesmer.

 

[zoopop.5630]

Thank You Anet.

 

Meta Is now 2-3 mesmer 1fb and 1scourge with a chance of a warrior or druid bunker.

 

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"BikeIsGone.8675" said:

> So after countless threads about how OP the GS burst on mesmer is (which btw has been basically the same since 2012 and was never considered "meta"), NOW its the AI spam......Not the perma 25 might, perma protection, the nigh-OPness that is chaotic persistence or the insane mobility from sword ambush.....but AI spam.

> Please try again with another thread. Once you have figured out what the actual issues with mesmer are.

 

They are capable of performing all the other classes' abilities stacked into one build (holo damage and CC, thief disengage and teleport, warrior survivability, necro condis). I don't even know where to start nerfing that because any one of them is bad news bear, but all four?

 

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

> Thank You Anet.

>

> Meta Is now 2-3 mesmer 1fb and 1scourge with a chance of a warrior or druid bunker.

 

Honestly, PvP is the least enjoyable it's been in ages. Scourge meta was bad, but this mesmer meta has been worse. I didn't even know that was possible.

[Chaith.8256]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> I happened to cause that one death.

 

Nobody is mislead into believing that. :neutral:

 

[Faux Play.6104]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > I happened to cause that one death.

>

> Nobody is mislead into believing that. :neutral:

>

 

Chaith =Achilles ithilwen=Paris. RIP.

[Lordrosicky.5813]

> @"Blackdagger.9670" said:

> I've said this countless times, here we are nothing has changed.; Mesmer has been and currently is the most overpowered and favoured class of all times in gw2 history.

> check season eras before PoF, and HoT era, mesmer has always dominated pvp, in every shape. Some players really started to believe that Chief pvp designer mains a mesmer, thats why this profession is always favoured by them. In fact, its no joke anymore. Things are getting troubling about mesmer.

>

> No Anet, your re-design of mesmer is just another fail, I am sorry.

> No Anet, mesmer is far away from being balanced.

>

>

> Actually, How do you effort losing good players of pvp community every day? I mean lots of experienced old players quited the game and long gone. They are not even planning to come back any soon, (Recently had a conversation with Kervv from old [vM] he told me, show me one good reason for us to come back to this game.. and I couldn't reply... cuz he was so right)

>

> Remember how Jay Wilson destroyed Diablo franchise? Well Anet, you had to take lessons from that failure. Mentioning about that game on purpose, because if any player here has ever played Diablo III, would surely understand my reference. There are close similarities with skill dynamics, traits with gw2. Not saying or claiming anything, just emphasizing when you are inspired from some other game and creating your own RPG, you also need to consider their failures. In this case, please remember How Blizzard took an action and replaced Jay Wilson after what he had done to that game and look how they managed to keep their player base still, after all those years. Long story short, YOU NEED TO TAKE action if there are some kind of replacements needed in PvP designing department. Maybe hire fresh blood? I think, it is about time.

 

It makes me laugh that when I quit this game after the first expansion mesmer was totally broken and ruined pvp with being impossible to focus and doing massive damage. I came back briefly about 12-18 months ago and mesmer was still totally broken and unfair. Again it couldnt be focused down and did massive counter damage. So I come on the forums now and I see that it still hasn't changed. lol. If a class does massive damage like mesmer does then it needs to be easy to focus and kill. Mesmer is IMPOSSIBLE to kill. Honestly, you have so many invulns, evades, blinks, mobility.

 

But at the end of the day the balance does not matter. The FUN does. And mesmer ruins pvp and has for years because it is not fun to fight against something that has a rotation that makes then invulnerable for 20-25 seconds whilst doing massive damage.

 

The proposed changed show that mesmer will get STRONGER than ever. If is hardly being nerfed and is already the best class as it has been for probably 4 years. Imagine being the best class for about 4 years in a game. That is crazy.

[Egorum.9506]

I have no idea what i'm doing with mesmer, 300 games on one in the last 5 years. Apparently an afternoon spent playing one was enough to learn how to play it successfully though. Such a high skill floor!

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > I happened to cause that one death.

>

> Nobody is mislead into believing that. :neutral:

>

 

The photo was taken after I hit with scepter 2 and 2 shatters. ( One of the shatters is now off cool down ) The Last distortion shatter secured the stomp. Yes, that was me.

 

~ But to return to the point of the discussion of that photo ~ I do in fact have credible skills and am qualified to comment. That was the entire point of the photo discussion.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Faux Play.6104" said:

> > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > I happened to cause that one death.

> >

> > Nobody is mislead into believing that. :neutral:

> >

>

> Chaith =Achilles ithilwen=Paris. RIP.

 

Smiles at the reference. "Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus’ son Achilleus and its devastation..." Not many people read The Illiad these days.

[Odik.4587]

Your every single game full of rifle/ PP DE, rifle wars...Its either unranked or may be high plat of NA omegalul.

Phantasmal force might stacking is a problem. Reduce it to 1 might stack ,keep 1% damage boost per might.

Shave problematic phantasms damage (but keep in mind ,its dies after 1 hit or being interrupted and how stupid AI in this game)

For pvp only ?-> rework defender to be defensive phantasm. Lower disenchanter damage on boonless target idc how much,dont touch cd.

Shield 4 honestly,quick attack animation and high base damage(1900 lol) , with its 'counterplay' part being removed,summoning 2 phantasm is nothing new now.

For all those who die to swordsman i advise to stop facetanking him and either dodge once or run straight w/o backpedalling.

No idea how to fix chrono phantasm spam if not removing chronophantasma. (lost time trait is nowhere near to be grandmaster even)

 

 

4 years of mesmer dominance? 4 years passed since HoT release? 25 seconds of being invulnerable and doing damage in same time, hm... clearly not exaggeration ,should be hired by Anet to fix balance problems (/sarcasm)

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Ithilwen always seems to get roasted on there's forums :-/

[apharma.3741]

I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

 

I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

 

Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

 

Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.