Feedback on the State of the Mesmer [merged]

[zoopop.5630]

> @"Astery.7914" said:

> > @"zoopop.5630" said:

>

> > you do understand the signet was 1 of the main issues toward the spamming correct ? You do know it allows them to reuse defender/Disenchanter from a 40 second cooldown to 0? the nerf was a solid direction to what needed tweaking.

> >

> > I agree theirs more work that needs to be done but overall this is LESS spam within seconds of usage from their abilities on weapons and utilizes.

>

> So do this change for spvp version? That's what I said.

> We have big spvp/wvw split patch, so why now spvp comes again to wvw, where balance is completely different?

 

because NO class should be able to completely spam aimlessly everything especially if it resets the cooldowns of 2-3 abilities.... YOU need to take a second and think if thats healthy for any sort of "pvp" in general, the answer should obvly be a big fat no.

 

P.S this skill was being abused with time split..... meaning you can re use all ur phantasm abilities 2 times if done right.

[Astery.7914]

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

> because NO class should be able to completely spam aimlessly everything especially if it resets the cooldowns of 2-3 abilities.... YOU need to take a second and think if thats healthy for any sort of "pvp" in general, the answer should obvly be a big fat no.

>

> P.S this skill was being abused with time split..... meaning you can re use all ur phantasm abilities 2 times if done right.

 

You understand phantasmal build have no use in wvw realies? With spam or not, mechanic of phantasms isn't working in large/middle/small scale fights. Maybe in duels, but wvw isn't about duels.

Anet already nerfed wvw-version of BD, now SotE. Both nerfs wasn't necessary. Bunker mesmer builds are NOT working here. BD nerf just pushed support mes even lower than it was (FB, healing tempest >>> support chrono). Now SotE. Open metabattle and try to find chrono spam build for wvw. There is no one.

 

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"Astery.7914" said:

> I don't understand this Signet of the Ether nerf for WvW, really. Like, hello? In spvp we have broken Disenchanter damage (12k-15k from single utility skill IS NOT NORMAL), we need rework on Chronophantasma spam and changes on Defender.

> All good, let's nerf SotE, which is lesser problem of chrono spam and might be can be usefull in other builds after cd reduce buff. Why?

>

> In realies of wvw (sorry, spvp guys, but we don't have separated topic for WvW) phantasmal spam isn't a thing. We have 3 categories of wvw-mesmers - pure power shatter and trailblazer condi for roam, and minstrel support for zergs. First and second builds were nerfed, and FB still MUCH better than chrono support.

> Problem is - you cannot use your phantasms on wvw effectively. In zerg battles they will die before do anything, for roam - your phantasms are too slow to do any good impact, "main weapon" of power shatter still is mind wrack combo, and for condi that is torch fire bomb.

> If you splitted skills between spvp and wvw - please, **split your next balance too**. After FB meta came and confusion nerfs happened mesmers almost lost all of their niches on wvw. No one needs you in zerg (EBG screaming - bring FB, scourges and warriors) and trailblazer condi strong only in 1vs1, due to low condi pressure (thanks to scourges, now everyone running maximum of their condi cleanse). Most of condi cleanse skills can be shared, so when in small scale fights (3-4 ppl) condi mesmer is just totally useless. You cannot do ANY decent pressure to groups with FB.

> So, why you touched WvW-version of SoTE when this skill already not popular and people using it only in specifical builds? Mesmer balance problem is like druid problem - they are strong in spvp, but on wvw your only remaining role is roaming, where s/d acro thief, core warr, SB warr with Rampage and hordes of 2scourges+FB groups are already much stronger and valuable than mesmers.

 

Because SotE is pure kitten.

 

There aren't only 3. Roamer Power Chrono is a thing, you forgot that one. And it is incredibly powerful. Much more than it is in PvP to be fair. Cast disenchanter with stability from chaos, use CS mid cast, get out of CS, cast it again, use SotE, cast it again. 6 Disenchanters with Chronophantasma. Good luck to your enemy trying to dodge all of those.

 

SotE and Chronophantasma were the main offenders, and Anet is on the right way at the moment.

[Astery.7914]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

>

> Because SotE is pure kitten.

>

> There aren't only 3. Roamer Power Chrono is a thing, you forgot that one. And it is incredibly powerful. Much more than it is in PvP to be fair. Cast disenchanter with stability from chaos, use CS mid cast, get out of CS, cast it again, use SotE, cast it again. 6 Disenchanters with Chronophantasma. Good luck to your enemy trying to dodge all of those.

>

> SotE and Chronophantasma were the main offenders, and Anet is on the right way at the moment.

 

Maybe you're joking or speaking about US, because I have played at tier 1-3 EU for half of year and for this time I have seen less than 10 chronospam mesmers.

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Astery.7914" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> >

> > Because SotE is pure kitten.

> >

> > There aren't only 3. Roamer Power Chrono is a thing, you forgot that one. And it is incredibly powerful. Much more than it is in PvP to be fair. Cast disenchanter with stability from chaos, use CS mid cast, get out of CS, cast it again, use SotE, cast it again. 6 Disenchanters with Chronophantasma. Good luck to your enemy trying to dodge all of those.

> >

> > SotE and Chronophantasma were the main offenders, and Anet is on the right way at the moment.

>

> Maybe you're joking or speaking about US, because I have played at tier 1-3 EU for half of year and for this time I have seen less than 10 chronospam mesmers.

>

 

Just because you personally do not see a problem doesn't mean the build is not mechanically overwhelming. Personal ranking does not discredit the assertion that the spec is overpowered, and neither does location. And roamers do exist. Stack food/unregulated sigil access on top of that and you have nightmares for any player that finds himself against a chrono mesmer without backup.

 

It's probably going to need even more shaving. We'll see how it goes.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Astery.7914" said:

> I don't understand this Signet of the Ether nerf for WvW, really. Like, hello? In spvp we have broken Disenchanter damage (12k-15k from single utility skill IS NOT NORMAL), we need rework on Chronophantasma spam and changes on Defender.

> All good, let's nerf SotE, which is lesser problem of chrono spam and might be can be usefull in other builds after cd reduce buff. Why?

>

> In realies of wvw (sorry, spvp guys, but we don't have separated topic for WvW) phantasmal spam isn't a thing. We have 3 categories of wvw-mesmers - pure power shatter and trailblazer condi for roam, and minstrel support for zergs. First and second builds were nerfed, and FB still MUCH better than chrono support.

> Problem is - you cannot use your phantasms on wvw effectively. In zerg battles they will die before do anything, for roam - your phantasms are too slow to do any good impact, "main weapon" of power shatter still is mind wrack combo, and for condi that is torch fire bomb.

> If you splitted skills between spvp and wvw - please, **split your next balance too**. After FB meta came and confusion nerfs happened mesmers almost lost all of their niches on wvw. No one needs you in zerg (EBG screaming - bring FB, scourges and warriors) and trailblazer condi strong only in 1vs1, due to low condi pressure (thanks to scourges, now everyone running maximum of their condi cleanse). Most of condi cleanse skills can be shared, so when in small scale fights (3-4 ppl) condi mesmer is just totally useless. You cannot do ANY decent pressure to groups with FB.

> So, why you touched WvW-version of SoTE when this skill already not popular and people using it only in specifical builds? Mesmer balance problem is like druid problem - they are strong in spvp, but on wvw your only remaining role is roaming, where s/d acro thief, core warr, SB warr with Rampage and hordes of 2scourges+FB groups are already much stronger and valuable than mesmers.

 

If Bunker Chrono wasn't used in WvW, and mesmers used other builds that are good I'm not seeing the issue.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"Astery.7914" said: With spam or not, mechanic of phantasms isn't working in [...] small scale fights. Maybe in duels, but wvw isn't about duels.

Not working in smallscale. Thanks for the laugh!

 

And stating that wvw is not about duells, is just ignorant nonsense.

 

> Open metabattle and try to find chrono spam build for wvw. There is no one.

There is a simple reason: for smallscale and roaming the metabattle followers typically pick a conquest build as a basis for their wvw build.

 

Just because you look in the wrong section at metabattle.com, it does not mean that these spam builds do not exist.

 

 

[plushiesoda.8150]

Deleted in protest of anet leaving support ticket #7495730 without answer since October 10th 2019. It's sad how if this were a money-related issue you'd have answered within a couple of hours. At this point I'm not even mad, but disappointed by the mediocrity displayed by your community managers.

[Wichidi.9281]

> @"Kraitan.8476" said:

> 27/04/18: Its still cancer.

 

And anet still doesnt care if its op or not. Gonna have to deal w this shit the whole season i bet.

 

Whenever u wanna give ranked a try again but anet fucks up. Again and again.

 

They shouldve listened to the community. Everybody was saying mesmer needed more nerfs BUT NO why listen to the huge vaste majority of the pvp community when u may fuk up mesmer and keep it op as it is right?

 

Incredibly dumb..

[witcher.3197]

Fear not, underwater changes will save the day

 

Anet's gonna scrap the current combat and replace it with underwater because that's still untainted by ridiculous powercreep

[Math.5123]

> @"witcher.3197" said:

> Fear not, underwater changes will save the day

>

> Anet's gonna scrap the current combat and replace it with underwater because that's still untainted by ridiculous powercreep

 

Mesmers are actually insane underwater. Hard CC on both weapons, mobility on spear. Insane Condi application on Trident. Damage is almost on par with fresh air tempest.

[witcher.3197]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"witcher.3197" said:

> > Fear not, underwater changes will save the day

> >

> > Anet's gonna scrap the current combat and replace it with underwater because that's still untainted by ridiculous powercreep

>

> Mesmers are actually insane underwater. Hard CC on both weapons, mobility on spear. Insane Condi application on Trident. Damage is almost on par with fresh air tempest.

 

Then we are doomed

[apharma.3741]

> @"Astery.7914" said:

> > @"zoopop.5630" said:

> > because NO class should be able to completely spam aimlessly everything especially if it resets the cooldowns of 2-3 abilities.... YOU need to take a second and think if thats healthy for any sort of "pvp" in general, the answer should obvly be a big fat no.

> >

> > P.S this skill was being abused with time split..... meaning you can re use all ur phantasm abilities 2 times if done right.

>

> You understand phantasmal build have no use in wvw realies? With spam or not, mechanic of phantasms isn't working in large/middle/small scale fights. Maybe in duels, but wvw isn't about duels.

> Anet already nerfed wvw-version of BD, now SotE. Both nerfs wasn't necessary. Bunker mesmer builds are NOT working here. BD nerf just pushed support mes even lower than it was (FB, healing tempest >>> support chrono). Now SotE. Open metabattle and try to find chrono spam build for wvw. There is no one.

>

 

This is why I was in favour of removing phantasms from the game completely and instead have those skills be an attack that the mesmer does that leaves behind a clone for shatter purposes.

 

This would have fixed the phantasm spam problem.

This would have fixed some of mesmers skills being utterly useless in large scale fights.

This would have fixed the problems where some runes/traits don’t increase the damage of certain skills and how some traits massively buff certain skills disproportionately.

 

We would also have a more unified balance between PvP and WvW.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Astery.7914" said:

> > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > >

> > > Because SotE is pure kitten.

> > >

> > > There aren't only 3. Roamer Power Chrono is a thing, you forgot that one. And it is incredibly powerful. Much more than it is in PvP to be fair. Cast disenchanter with stability from chaos, use CS mid cast, get out of CS, cast it again, use SotE, cast it again. 6 Disenchanters with Chronophantasma. Good luck to your enemy trying to dodge all of those.

> > >

> > > SotE and Chronophantasma were the main offenders, and Anet is on the right way at the moment.

> >

> > Maybe you're joking or speaking about US, because I have played at tier 1-3 EU for half of year and for this time I have seen less than 10 chronospam mesmers.

> >

>

> Just because you personally do not see a problem doesn't mean the build is not mechanically overwhelming. Personal ranking does not discredit the assertion that the spec is overpowered, and neither does location. And roamers do exist. Stack food/unregulated sigil access on top of that and you have nightmares for any player that finds himself against a chrono mesmer without backup.

>

> It's probably going to need even more shaving. We'll see how it goes.

 

Yes because chrono is the only build that over performs in WvW roaming. I really hope ANet buffs perma dodge thief, perma stealth DE, never die dodge spam warriors, constant reset holo that can 100-0 you in 1s and all the other clearly balanced stuff that can’t keep up with chrono in WvW.

 

Also can’t forget the constant resetting double stone signet 1500 range pew pews, definitely needs more stealth and more range, blinks very often turn that 1500+ no risk range into risk so should really be 2000.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Astery.7914" said:

> > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > >

> > > > Because SotE is pure kitten.

> > > >

> > > > There aren't only 3. Roamer Power Chrono is a thing, you forgot that one. And it is incredibly powerful. Much more than it is in PvP to be fair. Cast disenchanter with stability from chaos, use CS mid cast, get out of CS, cast it again, use SotE, cast it again. 6 Disenchanters with Chronophantasma. Good luck to your enemy trying to dodge all of those.

> > > >

> > > > SotE and Chronophantasma were the main offenders, and Anet is on the right way at the moment.

> > >

> > > Maybe you're joking or speaking about US, because I have played at tier 1-3 EU for half of year and for this time I have seen less than 10 chronospam mesmers.

> > >

> >

> > Just because you personally do not see a problem doesn't mean the build is not mechanically overwhelming. Personal ranking does not discredit the assertion that the spec is overpowered, and neither does location. And roamers do exist. Stack food/unregulated sigil access on top of that and you have nightmares for any player that finds himself against a chrono mesmer without backup.

> >

> > It's probably going to need even more shaving. We'll see how it goes.

>

> Yes because chrono is the only build that over performs in WvW roaming. I really hope ANet buffs perma dodge thief, perma stealth DE, never die dodge spam warriors, constant reset holo that can 100-0 you in 1s and all the other clearly balanced stuff that can’t keep up with chrono in WvW.

>

> Also can’t forget the constant resetting double stone signet 1500 range pew pews, definitely needs more stealth and more range, blinks very often turn that 1500+ no risk range into risk so should really be 2000.

 

I don't understand your angle. Yes, there are a dozen other annoying roaming builds out there in wvw. That does not validate mesmer being it its current state.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > @"Astery.7914" said:

> > > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > Because SotE is pure kitten.

> > > > >

> > > > > There aren't only 3. Roamer Power Chrono is a thing, you forgot that one. And it is incredibly powerful. Much more than it is in PvP to be fair. Cast disenchanter with stability from chaos, use CS mid cast, get out of CS, cast it again, use SotE, cast it again. 6 Disenchanters with Chronophantasma. Good luck to your enemy trying to dodge all of those.

> > > > >

> > > > > SotE and Chronophantasma were the main offenders, and Anet is on the right way at the moment.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe you're joking or speaking about US, because I have played at tier 1-3 EU for half of year and for this time I have seen less than 10 chronospam mesmers.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Just because you personally do not see a problem doesn't mean the build is not mechanically overwhelming. Personal ranking does not discredit the assertion that the spec is overpowered, and neither does location. And roamers do exist. Stack food/unregulated sigil access on top of that and you have nightmares for any player that finds himself against a chrono mesmer without backup.

> > >

> > > It's probably going to need even more shaving. We'll see how it goes.

> >

> > Yes because chrono is the only build that over performs in WvW roaming. I really hope ANet buffs perma dodge thief, perma stealth DE, never die dodge spam warriors, constant reset holo that can 100-0 you in 1s and all the other clearly balanced stuff that can’t keep up with chrono in WvW.

> >

> > Also can’t forget the constant resetting double stone signet 1500 range pew pews, definitely needs more stealth and more range, blinks very often turn that 1500+ no risk range into risk so should really be 2000.

>

> I don't understand your angle. Yes, there are a dozen other annoying roaming builds out there in wvw. That does not validate mesmer being it its current state.

 

My angle is that every one of them is far stronger than chrono for roaming at similar skill level. That’s without mentioning that phantasms always were and still are mostly useless in zergs.

 

See my other comment about how I would have fixed all of the issues in 1 change.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> My angle is that every one of them is far stronger than chrono for roaming at similar skill level. That’s without mentioning that phantasms always were and still are mostly useless in zergs.

 

I would disagree with the first part of this statement and agree with the second, in skirmishes. However, that also does not validate them being as they currently are. There are several specs that are useless in zergs compared to roaming, and several that are the opposite. Neither of these situations mandate the acceptance of phantasm spam.

 

Again, not that the builds and class specs you mentioned before -don't- require balancing, but this -is- the feedback for mesme thread, and it is the most glaring problem at this time.

 

> See my other comment about how I would have fixed all of the issues in 1 change.

 

The balance devs can't do mechanic splits, and the rework would largely affect pve. I don't think Arenanet would spring for that.

 

[apharma.3741]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > My angle is that every one of them is far stronger than chrono for roaming at similar skill level. That’s without mentioning that phantasms always were and still are mostly useless in zergs.

>

> I would disagree with the first part of this statement and agree with the second, in skirmishes. However, that also does not validate them being as they currently are. There are several specs that are useless in zergs compared to roaming, and several that are the opposite.

>

> Again, not that the builds and class specs you mentioned before -don't- require balancing, but this -is- the feedback for mesme thread, and it is the most glaring problem at this time.

>

> > See my other comment about how I would have fixed all of the issues in 1 change.

>

> The balance devs can't do mechanic splits, and the rework would largely affect pve. I don't think Arenanet would spring for that.

>

 

That’s the thing though, the build and everything people are complaining about in PvP is not only behind those but it’s actually poor in roaming short of a 1v1.

 

You’re only thinking of mechanical split, what I’m saying is phantasms removed across the game. PvE, PvP, WvW everything. The change to phantasms being a once only attack should be scrapped in its entirety, I said it before and I will say it again, phantasms as a mechanic do not and never will work. This is a change that would make mesmer easier to balance and better to play in every single game mode, it would solve the PvP problems and go some ways towards not being useless in WvW while giving the power builds the ability to make use of scholar and force runes/sigils in PvE.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > My angle is that every one of them is far stronger than chrono for roaming at similar skill level. That’s without mentioning that phantasms always were and still are mostly useless in zergs.

> >

> > I would disagree with the first part of this statement and agree with the second, in skirmishes. However, that also does not validate them being as they currently are. There are several specs that are useless in zergs compared to roaming, and several that are the opposite.

> >

> > Again, not that the builds and class specs you mentioned before -don't- require balancing, but this -is- the feedback for mesme thread, and it is the most glaring problem at this time.

> >

> > > See my other comment about how I would have fixed all of the issues in 1 change.

> >

> > The balance devs can't do mechanic splits, and the rework would largely affect pve. I don't think Arenanet would spring for that.

 

> You’re only thinking of mechanical split, what I’m saying is phantasms removed across the game. PvE, PvP, WvW everything. The change to phantasms being a once only attack should be scrapped in its entirety, I said it before and I will say it again, phantasms as a mechanic do not and never will work. This is a change that would make mesmer easier to balance and better to play in every single game mode, it would solve the PvP problems and go some ways towards not being useless in WvW while giving the power builds the ability to make use of scholar and force runes/sigils in PvE.

 

Oh, I see. Interesting. I still think that would be a long shot to have a rework of that caliber, but it -could- be a large benefit. It might necessitate HP bumps and etc. though, if they're going to be actively putting themselves in range for those attacks they normally delegated to phantasms

 

> That’s the thing though, the build and everything people are complaining about in PvP is not only behind those but it’s actually poor in roaming short of a 1v1.

 

Hmm. took a step back here to acquiesce. I still disagree with it being poor as a roamer, but I can see that it would have shortcomings in doing so compared to other classes. Combat effectiveness, however....

I understand your point though. I still think its skewed, but I get where you're coming from.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > My angle is that every one of them is far stronger than chrono for roaming at similar skill level. That’s without mentioning that phantasms always were and still are mostly useless in zergs.

> > >

> > > I would disagree with the first part of this statement and agree with the second, in skirmishes. However, that also does not validate them being as they currently are. There are several specs that are useless in zergs compared to roaming, and several that are the opposite.

> > >

> > > Again, not that the builds and class specs you mentioned before -don't- require balancing, but this -is- the feedback for mesme thread, and it is the most glaring problem at this time.

> > >

> > > > See my other comment about how I would have fixed all of the issues in 1 change.

> > >

> > > The balance devs can't do mechanic splits, and the rework would largely affect pve. I don't think Arenanet would spring for that.

>

> > You’re only thinking of mechanical split, what I’m saying is phantasms removed across the game. PvE, PvP, WvW everything. The change to phantasms being a once only attack should be scrapped in its entirety, I said it before and I will say it again, phantasms as a mechanic do not and never will work. This is a change that would make mesmer easier to balance and better to play in every single game mode, it would solve the PvP problems and go some ways towards not being useless in WvW while giving the power builds the ability to make use of scholar and force runes/sigils in PvE.

>

> Oh, I see. Interesting. I still think that would be a long shot to have a rework of that caliber, but it -could- be a large benefit. It might necessitate HP bumps and etc. though, if they're going to be actively putting themselves in range for those attacks they normally delegated to phantasms

>

> > That’s the thing though, the build and everything people are complaining about in PvP is not only behind those but it’s actually poor in roaming short of a 1v1.

>

> Hmm. took a step back here to acquiesce. I still disagree with it being poor as a roamer, but I can see that it would have shortcomings in doing so compared to other classes. Combat effectiveness, however....

> I understand your point though. I still think its skewed, but I get where you're coming from.

 

Realistically, such a change wouldn't be that much more work than what was put in to the phantasm rework itself (though the fact that we already got a large rework pretty much ensures we are last in line for any future reworks of such a large nature).

[Deihnyx.6318]

We just ran a match against a team of 3 mesmers.

I don't think i'm spoiling anything by saying they had an easy win (they even bragged about it, but that's pvp mentality)

A 1&1 with mesmer might be manageable, even though they're still at an advantage, but 1&1 isn't the only thing that matters in pvp.

 

Scourge is annoying that's true, but there are clear counters against it.

 

People who swap to mesmer just to get more before the match start is a problem. It's definitely borderline exploit to me

 

[Volrath.1473]

heads down, more buffs incoming!

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> Scourge is annoying that's true, but there are clear counters against it.

 

You mean like mesmer?

 

Face fact, you aint getting away. Once mesmer is nerfed, some other class will stack and people are back to complaining.

[Kiritodatrth.1548]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > Scourge is annoying that's true, but there are clear counters against it.

>

> You mean like mesmer?

>

> Face fact, you aint getting away. Once mesmer is nerfed, some other class will stack and people are back to complaining.

 

You mean after they nerf chrono we will stack mirage that is also broken?

[omgdracula.6345]

I never really minded mesmers until now. Mostly because of the sheer visual clutter their clones create. That and being chain dazed by multiple mesmer clones. That is super annoying.