This game has gotten too fast for me

[BMW.2951]

> @"brannigan.9831" said:

> An ability like full counter is garbage thats for sure and awful design.

 

Ranged classes can kill a spellbreaker easy man. Also "full counter" is needed to fight the cancer scourges. Even if full counter goes off, more than likely the scourges conditions will eat you alive after your resistance is done. Also mesmers kill spellbreakers easy. I think Spellbreakers are pretty balanced myself.

[Ghos.1326]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > Now that passive defensive traits were nerfed in PvP, the next things that the balance team needs to tackle are roughly:

> > >

> > > * Reduce bonus damage from traits across the board

> > > * Reduce stealth access across the board

> > > * Reduce the amount of unblockable attacks across the board. Chief targets should be skills that make your next couple attacks unblockable. These should be extremely limited skills, and each one should have a very limited number of uses (think 2, 3 skills affected maximum). All traits that proc lesser versions of these skills should be removed. Ideally, 95% of the unblockable things in the game should just be non damaging: applying a condition, stripping/converting/stealing a boon.

> > > * Reduce the amount of blocks in the game, but not too much. Will just be necessary after reducing the amount of unblockable kitten that exists

> > > * Massive rebalancing of skills, making sure that skills aren't doing too much crap at once

> >

> > So basically redesign the entire game.

> >

> > At that point we might as well wait for gw3. Pvp is beyond help.

>

> Umm no. The game itself is more than fine. Class design is the issue. And redoing the classes from the ground up does not mean you have to abandon the rest of the game. But even that is beside the point, since the only thing in my list that would require any major redesign would be large reductions in access to stealth. Everything else can be done without any major redesigns.

 

Ori, you know any logical suggestions will just be combated with people who don't understand computer coding, and the classic "so basically you're suggesting redesigning the game" will come raring its head to inflict us with 400 stacks of torment that last for 5 days, and remains even until after death. Kappa.

[Einlanzer.1627]

Yeah. There are some serious systemic problems with the game's balance that are bigger than "x ability is overtuned". It's really, really hard to understand what the dev team is thinking sometimes.

 

Conditions are (still) too prolific and do too much damage, as if Arenanet completely forgot the main purpose of conditions was to give you a way to ignore armor. The subsequent proliferation of immunity and resistance has restricted build depth, removed strategy, undermined the usefulness of vitality/toughness, and made the gameplay generally feel to twitchy.

 

Damage in general has continued to creep upward relative to passive defense, which just makes combat feel way too abrupt and bursty with little actual strategy involved. I don't know why they seem to think this is "fun". To some degree this even applies to PvE.

[HeadCrowned.6834]

I didnt read all of it, but I can imagine that this game has become too fast. You can die ridiculously fast. An important nerf Anet should implement is a nerf on teleports. Thief, rev, guard, and mes all have teleports in their most important builds, which renders most classes/builds that use ranged attacks often pretty useless. Ofcourse they should get something in return, but I think a nerf on teleports is justified.

[Aza.2105]

> @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> I didnt read all of it, but I can imagine that this game has become too fast. You can die ridiculously fast. An important nerf Anet should implement is a nerf on teleports. Thief, rev, guard, and mes all have teleports in their most important builds, which renders most classes/builds that use ranged attacks often pretty useless. Ofcourse they should get something in return, but I think a nerf on teleports is justified.

 

Well there are two different types of teleports in this game. One that teleports you to the target and the other which allows you to teleport any where within a specific range. Guardian teleport is different, it only allows you to teleport to a specific target. So it can't be used as a escape tool (most of the time). Understand that guardian teleport was designed to port them to a target and keep them there until the target dies or they do. If teleports were to be changed it wouldn't be a universal change it would depend upon how the teleport is used.

[Highlie.7641]

> @"Ferus.3165" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Ferus.3165" said:

> > > solution: block all elite specs from pvp and revert all core classes back to pre HoT status (nerf rev accordingly and then allow core rev aswell)

> > > ofc only in pvp (and maybe wvw)

> >

> > This is a really really bad idea, some core classes, namely those seen as “weak” after elite spec nerfs have been receiving buff upon buff upon buff to the point where the core specs aren’t very balanced in relation anymore. SD thief is a great example of this.

>

> that is why i said "revert all core classes back to pre HoT status"

 

what he doesn't realize is most of these buffs to core s/d where in all reality reverts. now there are 4 things he can be mentioning as power creep.

double steal, 15% extra dmg on larc strike vs boonless, extra boon stolen from sleight of hand. upper hand (which got fixed last patch).

 

honestly the 15% might even make up for the damage nerfs it has recieved over the years. but i can't say for sure anymore. in either case he's not stating that this power creep (which it is) was added on to fight power creep on other professions. for instant the extra boon stolen from sleight was added because thieves couldn't keep up with the boon spam other professions output.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Highlie.7641" said:

> > @"Ferus.3165" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"Ferus.3165" said:

> > > > solution: block all elite specs from pvp and revert all core classes back to pre HoT status (nerf rev accordingly and then allow core rev aswell)

> > > > ofc only in pvp (and maybe wvw)

> > >

> > > This is a really really bad idea, some core classes, namely those seen as “weak” after elite spec nerfs have been receiving buff upon buff upon buff to the point where the core specs aren’t very balanced in relation anymore. SD thief is a great example of this.

> >

> > that is why i said "revert all core classes back to pre HoT status"

>

> what he doesn't realize is most of these buffs to core s/d where in all reality reverts. now there are 4 things he can be mentioning as power creep.

> double steal, 15% extra dmg on larc strike vs boonless, extra boon stolen from sleight of hand. upper hand (which got fixed last patch).

>

> honestly the 15% might even make up for the damage nerfs it has recieved over the years. but i can't say for sure anymore. in either case he's not stating that this power creep (which it is) was added on to fight power creep on other professions. for instant the extra boon stolen from sleight was added because thieves couldn't keep up with the boon spam other professions output.

 

I’m fully aware other classes likewise got creeped, they also received several design changes to many skills which also changed the core class, warrior is another good example where core warrior is quite a lot stronger than many core specs too since. Phantasms for mesmer got changed too which means you can run a relatively glassy build yet still pump out good damage and decent sustain even without an elite spec using illusions, chaos, insp or double down on providing boons and make sure everyone has permanent fury, quickness, might, retal, protection, regen, vigor and lots of random aegis.

 

I did however miss the part where he said revert the core classes back to pre HoT status though so that is my bad.

[Axl.8924]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"lordhelmos.7623" said:

 

>

> - Boons need to be toned down. We have all seen how many builds are running around that just seem to have every boon on permanently. That should not be the case, boons need to be less accessible to EVERYONE. There should never be a build that is capable of permanently maintaining every boon by itself in combat. The heavy presence of boons also helps to create these "jack of all trades, master of all" builds that can 1v1 at a very high level, teamfight at a very high level, help support the team, kitten out tons of aoe, spam cc, and take 30 years to kill. Removing a lot of people's access to boons helps to address those because it no longer allows for glassy builds to survive artificially long amounts of time due to prot and regen uptime and it stops bunkers from bursting like marauder builds due to high might and fury uptime.

>

> I ended up repeating some of what you said but this is my overall 2 cents on the subject

>

> Edit: Forgot a huge one... ANIMATIONS!

> Animations in this game are so unbelieveably massive for some skills they just remove any semblance of readability from fights (scourge red circles are a very good example of this as they will cover your entire screen and leave you sitting in a teamfight wondering kitten just happened) Other skills don't have animations that are noticeable enough to be counterplayed appropriately for how strong the skill is. This isn't necessarily a "redo every animation in the game" request but more of a "tidy up what you can and try to increase readability of larger fights"

 

i have said that for a while that boons needed nerfed.The fact that people have so many boons and so many ways to escape and make themselves invulnerable is ridiculous.Plus this also nerfs boon corrupt because there will be less of it, and then hopefully boon corrupt can be buffed back to where it was because the problem was boons were too common.

 

Also burst needs to be toned down and the amount of cc.I was on thief S/D and i got bursted down so fast.I don't know what kinda stuff i was bursted by because it went fast, but it was fast.

 

Then again:Maybe Anet wants me to play mostly the new class and burst people down.

 

Furthermore:I think that certain class roles should be kept as is, and others should have either new roles or a dif role that defines their role.Maybe its for the best that thief was the king of decapping and druid spec was a healer god.

 

Personally:If you are going to nerf bunker builds, then burst and condis need to be nerfed.If you nerf bunker builds but keep burst same, you end up with builds which are all glass builds who will have infinite evades and or still burst you down, and it would harm druid spec since yeah it can spec for dps, but druid healer spec can't do that much dps.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

This is why I quit GW2 PvP.

 

Not even celestial stats can save my Elly. 18 to 20k health gets taken in seconds and sometimes in a oneshot. Sure, I may be too slow or lack certain skills, but I never had these issues in Guild Wars 1 as Elementalist. I currently run celestial but I only lose attack power to gain less than a second extra survivability.

[pah.4931]

The problem is this game was originally designed WITHOUT any support. HoT and then PoF has added really strong support classes, so if damage isn't super high then people become impossible to kill -- especially in a game-mode (solo-q ranked) that has almost no comms.

[Ghos.1326]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> The problem is this game was originally designed WITHOUT any support. HoT and then PoF has added really strong support classes, so if damage isn't super high then people become impossible to kill -- especially in a game-mode (solo-q ranked) that has almost no comms.

 

I think this is because they were trying to tackle putting in support to be effective, but not too effective. Also, support existed, but their aim was to dip away from the "holy trinity" in games, and give a support role to any profession that specced toward that role. Though a lot of specs lacked that support role focus, we're seeing it finally come back. I personally want to see a support engi in PvE using medkit =P

[pah.4931]

> @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > @"pah.4931" said:

> > The problem is this game was originally designed WITHOUT any support. HoT and then PoF has added really strong support classes, so if damage isn't super high then people become impossible to kill -- especially in a game-mode (solo-q ranked) that has almost no comms.

>

> I think this is because they were trying to tackle putting in support to be effective, but not too effective. Also, support existed, but their aim was to dip away from the "holy trinity" in games, and give a support role to any profession that specced toward that role. Though a lot of specs lacked that support role focus, we're seeing it finally come back. I personally want to see a support engi in PvE using medkit =P

 

We the thing is, since there is no "holy trinity", all classes were given decent self-sustain (dodges and self-heal and blocks, etc) -- even high damage classes have access to these types of abilities because originally you'd get very little help from teammates in dungeons and world events. Staying alive, for DPS, was mostly on the DPSer -- there is no dedicated healer watching healthbars and spamming heals.

 

This type of design makes having heavy support in PvP very bad because it becomes almost impossible to kill people (they can do lots of damage while also having self-survival while ALSO having another player blasting them heals/aegis). It can't work. So they decided to just let everything hit like a truck, while also trying to neuter support builds (firebrand/druid nerfs + magi amulet removal are examples of this).

 

There just isn't room for heavy healing support in GW2 PvP. I'd rather all support classes be unplayable in PvP and damage reduced.

 

Bunkers are OK (as long as they aren't TOO ridiculous) as long as they are selfish and there's a trade-off. Healers, on the other hand, just don't work in GW2 combat.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Ferus.3165" said:

> > solution: block all elite specs from pvp and revert all core classes back to pre HoT status (nerf rev accordingly and then allow core rev aswell)

> > ofc only in pvp (and maybe wvw)

>

> This is a really really bad idea, some core classes, namely those seen as “weak” after elite spec nerfs have been receiving buff upon buff upon buff to the point where the core specs aren’t very balanced in relation anymore. SD thief is a great example of this.

 

This is what happens when people cry about being nerfed and instead demand consolation buffs to "weak things" instead.

 

You end up with powercreep across what was even previously balanced or slightly weak to the point where the first thing that was OP becomes the new baseline for power - I.E., D/P thief being weak with S/D thief taking off because the powercreep from the game killed off D/P thief, which had previously killed off S/D thief... and so on.

 

Everything that has happened from HoT and beyond just needs extremely hard nerfs. That is literally the only valid solution long-term and it pains me people think that buffs to weak things is the answer because they don't want to see their FoTM build nerfed or made harder to play.

 

----

 

As for damage modifiers: This is something that needs a lot better moderation. Stacking modifiers is good because it makes the disparity between investing in damage and not investing in damage bigger, which is good because it prevents things from being tanky and dealing too much damage by need of investment.

 

The thief is a great example here: Since release, most of the thief's major access to damage has been defined almost entirely by damage modifiers. Prior to HoT, the thief's AA's were weaker than dagger necro's. It was the investment into trait lines that only gave offense like Crit Strikes that made the damage bump up.

 

What we've seen is a shift from defenses coming from traits and utilities move to weapon skills and class mechanics. Things that all builds get. That's not okay because these kit designs running full-offense in terms of damage modifiers in traits get the full defensive benefits of these abilities as well. An immunity, block, evade, etc. is the same amount of negation regardless of build. This is why things like Mirage, Daredevil, and Warrior/Spellbreaker get way out of hand quite quickly.

 

There's nothing innately wrong with burst and massive damage, but there is something wrong with burst and massive damage with no indication and low risk of counterattack. D/D signet thief and glass cannon S/S rev have a huge amount of damage that can be dealt extremely quickly, but their engages and tells are pretty obvious, which is what separates these builds from things like power shatter mirage and D/P Assassin's Signet DE.

[lordhelmos.7623]

I'm interesting in what the average time to live is for a player that isn't using any defensive CDs against most meta builds. I am sure it is under a time frame that can be realistically reacted to by a human player.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"lordhelmos.7623" said:

> I took a 2 year break from the game, prior to leaving I did a lot of SPVP. I currently just WvW and PVE now.

>

> Going back into SPVP since Path of Fire, I noticed the damage was way way way too high. On a Spellbreaker warrior I can hit with offhand dagger 4 for over 9k damage on a target with an animation that is less than .5 seconds of casting (and offhand dagger I hear is even considered bad). I am seeing 4-7k auto attacks from holos and mesmer bursts over 15k damage with less than a quarter second of reaction time.

>

> The game has created an environment where it only takes one single mistake to die, even on the most defensive gear you can buy.

>

> I am not going to single out any specific classes, because honestly I'm seeing the same thing on every class. Extremely high damage, very little indication of a burst, and little to no time to react.

>

> I have seen unkillable soulbeasts burst for over 20k damage through stuns, holosmiths autoattack people to death in seconds with photo forges up, mesmers and thiefs autokill from stealth with insane surprise bursts, melting in seconds just standing next to scourges.... every class has some level of "make you explode BS."

>

> I don't think high damage on certain skills is an issue if the game had better visual indicators so that you can actually react. However core problems seem like:

>

> 1.) Everyone does way too much damage (both power and conditions)

> 2.) Particle effects are atrocious and make it almost impossible to tell what is going on -especially from scourges.

> 3.) Many instagib comboes from various classes have no wind ups or very weak visual indicators. This was always a problem but is exacerbated beyond belief in HoT.

> 4.) Many classes have procs that can deal huge amounts of damage while still granting invulnerability windows. Full counter is an example.

> 5.) Many classes have auto defensive procs, which lets the AI and timers play for you.

>

> This is extemely unhealthy for all games modes because:

>

> A.) Defensive gear options don't matter since they are not nearly enough to mitigate the crazy amounts of damage floating around.

> B.) Gameplay consists of loading your bar with 80% defensive skills and procs and rotating them hoping that an enemy makes a mistake first so that you can 0 to 100 him in less than a second. It was this way before I left in HoT, but its way way worse than it was before. Another common tactic is to use long range teleports to simply "be out of range" of the enemy's burst and try to bait their attacks into you while you teleport you so they fail due to range or obstruction issues.

> C.) There is no strategy and very little counterplay because your first mistake will usually kill you, there is no "coming back" from a burst because it will just flat out kill you.

> D.) Everyone pretty much has howitzers and paper armor, it wouldn't make a difference if everyone was just given a single shot longbow and 1hp because its the same gameplay experience. Classes are just different flavors of how to deliver the payload and there is extreme imbalance because everyone is lethal yet some classes have way better defensive CDs than others (e.g. mesmers who have almost triple the inventory of stealths, invuls, evades, stuns, dazes, and lockdown than some other classes).

> E.) For new players or people that don't understand classes, death is usually sudden with very bad indicators. To avoid death you have to simply know your enemies class and "predict" when they will spike you. There is no "reacting after the enemy uses their key skill" because the animations are so fast and the particle effects are so bad that you probably wont see it or will not be able to react in time. Mesmer again is the cultprit of this, as they can cover your screen with garbage and instakill you with no casting delay at the same time.

>

> I think the above is ultimately why Gw2 failed in competitive SPVP.

 

Good post, and thanks for taking the time share your thoughts!

[Aza.2105]

> @"lordhelmos.7623" said:

> I'm interesting in what the average time to live is for a player that isn't using any defensive CDs against most meta builds. I am sure it is under a time frame that can be realistically reacted to by a human player.

 

I wouldn't call it instantly, but its very close. Around the one second mark or so for sure.