Account suspension discussion [merged]

[Kunzaito.8169]

Others have pointed this out tangentially, but many of you need to note that there is no such thing as due process or "innocent until proven guilty" here. ANet is not the government. You are accessing their private property and are subject to their rules, however specific or arbitrary they choose to make them.

 

The real analogy would be something like, you attend an event that specifies "No recording devices." They conduct a random bag search, or the bartender sees a camera in your bag, or they catch you on your phone, and they kick you out. Cameras aren't illegal. And you can say all you want that "Yeah, I have the camera, but I just forgot it in my bag, I wasn't *using* it." They are still within their rights to eject you from their private property.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

Let me get this right . . . people have to told not to run a program called CheatEngine while playing Guild Wars 2 now?

[Vault Girl.6792]

> @"Kunzaito.8169" said:

> Others have pointed this out tangentially, but many of you need to note that there is no such thing as due process or "innocent until proven guilty" here. ANet is not the government. You are accessing their private property and are subject to their rules, however specific or arbitrary they choose to make them.

>

> The real analogy would be something like, you attend an event that specifies "No recording devices." They conduct a random bag search, or the bartender sees a camera in your bag, or they catch you on your phone, and they kick you out. Cameras aren't illegal. And you can say all you want that "Yeah, I have the camera, but I just forgot it in my bag, I wasn't *using* it." They are still within their rights to eject you from their private property.

 

GW2 rules do not say "no programs that do not interact in any way with gw2 but potentially could". It is against rules to use them to read/modify anything in GW2.

It's like.. when it's forbidden to record things, but not forbidden to have cameras with you, and still you get kicked out for having it.

[Anthony.3207]

I am not the smartest guy in the world but I think if you run a cheat program behind an MMO the cheat program sinks itself into the game registry so even if you don't make changes to the game - you've already breached security and broken laws by running it in the background.

 

I used to use gamesharks when I was a kid and I learned that cheat engines put their hacks into the games registry and even if you legitimately don't cheat or make changes - you still have breached the game.

 

So with anet. If they see you running a cheat engine behind guild wars 2 it's irrelivent if you cheat or make changes. I think when the cheat engine loads up or is on it breaches it self into a games registry. So it prepared or readies the cheats for you to use even if you don't cheat.

 

See what I am talking about ? I am not the smartest guy in the world but common sense says your cheat engine got access to guild wars 2s memory and registry. Whether you decided to cheat hack or not is irrelivent.

 

I hope I make sense.

 

 

[Sky Fell.7604]

> @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said:

> Let me get this right . . . people have to told not to run a program called CheatEngine while playing Guild Wars 2 now?

 

[Cheat Engine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheat_Engine "Cheat Engine")

cheat engine is just a memory modifier/hex editor/dissassembler. It can be used for programming and modding

 

[example](https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/132/ "example")

 

It has a dumb name. Its quite useful actually.

[Sojourner.4621]

> @"Vault Girl.6792" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Vault Girl.6792" said:

> > > > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > > > > @"Vault Girl.6792" said:

> > > > > If I play some game for a week, I have Cheat Engine open this whole week.

> > > > I'd reconsider doing that while playing GW2 (or any MMO or online game you're not wanting to get banned from) if I were you in about 6 months.

> > >

> > > Of course, that was stupid. And still, it's not a valid reason to ban someone for 6 months. I believe that should require more proofs.

> >

> > This is literally the most painfully obvious way to catch a cheater and a solution a LOT of games have to catch them.

> >

> > All I see from this is you claiming "I'm a cheater, just not in GW2," and if I were back in working in game support administration, that alone would be enough for me to tell you not to let the door hit you on the way out because that general mentality isn't acceptable.

>

> "Obvious" doesn't mean "accurate". They could have checked whether a program changes anything in the game. Also, there are a lot of videos/screenshots of players, who are clearly cheating.

> Also, what's wrong with cheating in single-player games?

 

Of the programs listed, One is ONLY for botting in MMOs... one is a general memory address editor that can be used for cheating in games but also has other uses in bug fixing and general troubleshooting. A large number of people in computer security fields have this program on their machine for any number of reasons. The rest are exclusively GW2 cheats/hacks. To be honest the only one of the listed programs that should not be an automatic ban is cheat engine, which should only be a ban if it is detected as hooked in to GW2 itself. There isn't any non-shady purpose for any of the others.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

> @"Sky Fell.7604" said:

>

> It has a dumb name. Its quite useful actually.

 

For modding the game. And it's against the EULA. Now there's a list. Again . . . it has cheat in the name. That's not a coincidence in my book.

 

[elrin.4750]

You are "presumed guilty until proven innocent". ArenaNet policy is the reverse of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 11.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Kunzaito.8169" said:

> Others have pointed this out tangentially, but many of you need to note that there is no such thing as due process or "innocent until proven guilty" here. ANet is not the government. You are accessing their private property and are subject to their rules, however specific or arbitrary they choose to make them.

>

> The real analogy would be something like, you attend an event that specifies "No recording devices." They conduct a random bag search, or the bartender sees a camera in your bag, or they catch you on your phone, and they kick you out. Cameras aren't illegal. And you can say all you want that "Yeah, I have the camera, but I just forgot it in my bag, I wasn't *using* it." They are still within their rights to eject you from their private property.

 

A better analogy would be that you are attending an event that specifies no recording devices and the host covertly enters the homes of every attendee to determine if they own a camera.

[Vulcaruss.9567]

You're acting like I had it open on purpose and not accidentally. Hind Sight is 20/20 Ardenwofle. Sure it's easy to say now "DON'T RUN IT IN THE BACK GROUND!" Now, but how was I suppose to know Anet was monitoring me for it? I Didn't and Couldn't of. And from what one of my friends tells me, there are a lot of 3rd Party modders who use Cheat Engine to help Develop their programs for GW2 that don't actually use it for Ill intent inside the game... Gah but what good is it talking to you about it? You're set in the You're Guilty cause you're Guilty mind set... I'm done with you...

[Anthony.3207]

Cheat engine probably auto hooked it self to guild wars 2 and prepared cheating options for you.

 

So running it in the background of guild wars 2 is temperang with memory or getting illegal access to the infrastructure.

[Kunzaito.8169]

> GW2 rules do not say "no programs that do not interact in any way with gw2 but potentially could". It is against rules to use them to read/modify anything in GW2.

> It's like.. when it's forbidden to record things, but not forbidden to have cameras with you, and still you get kicked out for having it.

 

You keep trying to make this hair-splitting definition, but you are actually wrong:

 

> 8. PROHIBITED AND IRREPARABLY HARMFUL ACTIVITIES CONCERNING ArenaNet

>

> You acknowledge that You may not, without signed written consent from a legally authorized representative of ArenaNet, do any of the following:

>

> Misappropriate, violate or infringe any third-party IP right;

> Use any ArenaNet IP right except as permitted under this agreement or otherwise permitted in writing by ArenaNet;

> Use, or provide others with, any software related to the Game, including any automation software (a.k.a. “bot”) or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game;

 

It's literally right there. It says "you are not allowed to use xxx software." Full stop. Not "use and detectibly interact with GW2." Just "use." They detected such use. You are banned. End of story.

 

 

[Kain Francois.4328]

I also have a bunch of hex editors in the background. But none of them ever interacted with the client, and I wasn't banned. It's possible they cross-referenced the executions list with suspicious account behavior before they banned someone?

 

However, their data collection method means ANET saw me playing FutanariQuest.exe ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[CETheLucid.3964]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Bad example

OK. Not reading this though. Pretty sure we're mostly on the same page. If you had something important to say, please try to shave it down or at least make use of paragraphs.

[Sky Fell.7604]

> @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said:

> > @"Sky Fell.7604" said:

> >

> > It has a dumb name. Its quite useful actually.

>

> For modding the game. And it's against the EULA. Now there's a list. Again . . . it has cheat in the name. That's not a coincidence in my book.

>

 

It's a name. It would be the same program if it was called Disassembler Engine.

 

At its core its a reverse engineering tool. Very useful in many other ways.

 

Besides. If Anet had done their detection spyware properly they'd be able to see if it was hooked into the application or not. Too bad they didn't.

[Vulcaruss.9567]

> @"Anthony.3207" said:

> I am not the smartest guy in the world but I think if you run a cheat program behind an MMO the cheat program sinks itself into the game registry so even if you don't make changes to the game - you've already breached security and broken laws by running it in the background.

>

> I used to use gamesharks when I was a kid and I learned that cheat engines put their hacks into the games registry and even if you legitimately don't cheat or make changes - you still have breached the game.

>

> So with anet. If they see you running a cheat engine behind guild wars 2 it's irrelivent if you cheat or make changes. I think when the cheat engine loads up or is on it breaches it self into a games registry. So it prepared or readies the cheats for you to use even if you don't cheat.

>

> See what I am talking about ? I am not the smartest guy in the world but common sense says your cheat engine got access to guild wars 2s memory and registry. Whether you decided to cheat hack or not is irrelivent.

>

> I hope I make sense.

>

>

 

Have you ever run Cheat Engine before? cause by your observation I'd say not. In order for Cheat Engine to function inside a game, you have to Synchronize it with the game. In other words, open up a list of programs and select the program you want cheat engine to function with. I did none of those things, it was just sitting there from when I was playing Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 Offline. So no it would not be in GW2's Registry, all Anet did was detect it running on my computer in the back ground and said "WELP There is a program specifically called "Cheat Engine" He must be trying to cheat our game! H E R P - D E R P Suspend him for 6 months cause we're so smart!" Yeah right....

[Vault Girl.6792]

> @"Anthony.3207" said:

> Cheat engine probably auto hooked it self to guild wars 2 and prepared cheating options for you.

>

> So running it in the background of guild wars 2 is temperang with memory or getting illegal access to the infrastructure.

 

I wish it was working like that, I mean automatically preparing cheating options. :D I'm not even sure whether it reads a process' memory unless you select this process. That's an interesting question, actually. But it certainly does not modify memory.

[usnedward.9023]

> @"Vulcaruss.9567" said:

> > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said:

> > > > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > > > You people understand that these hacks and cheats involve dll files in the GW2 directory. IF ANET wants to see what is loading when the game loads.... BAM you're busted. Simple as that. I think this thread is getting hilarious with the whole "spyware" thing since:

> > > >

> > > > 1. My antivirus will detect it because it is proactive

> > > > 2. More than likely it is part of ANETs software to which you agreed to install and use and you violated the TOS (like I did) and got caught

> > > > 3. This has NOTHING to do with the addons UNLESS they were not sanctioned with an API key

> > > > 4. The extreme punishment (not so extreme really) is proof in the pudding that there was activities beyond the TOS agreement that got you (and me) banned

> > > > 5. The fact that ANET WILL NOT be entertaining appeals for these accounts is even MORE proof you cheated

> > > >

> > > > Why is so hard to accept that? Because you poured many hours in the game, cash and so forth? Chance you took.

> > > >

> > > > YOU = anyone who says they did not do anything and got banned. BTW "here look at my computer" does nothing with delete and empty trash....

> > >

> > > Oh look another guy who's saying I'm lying and that I deserve the punishment all cause of a program I left active on my computer and didn't think would be a problem cause it wasn't synchronized to the game just sitting there... doing nothing. I stand by my story usnedward.9023 I have nothing to gain or lose by lying at this point. Anet will probably just ignore all of this, keep a stern stance and say "screw you we're keeping this in place just cause." ... The Gall you have man.

> >

> > I am not calling everyone a "liar". Here is what I would LOVE to see and I know ANET will never do it.

> >

> > 1. You say you didn't do anything (you meaning anyone and not just you)

> > 2. ANET publishes the data they collected on you (Again you is general) and look...this toon just ran at 180% run speed in WvW. And they document that.

> > 3. ANET publishes data showing you somehow went from ground base zero to 500 foot in the air and then moved sideways. And they document that.

> > 4. ANET publishes data showing were outside a keep, no walls or gates down, tier three, and now you are inside creating a portal and letting everyone in. And they document that

> > 5. ANET publishes you under the map hitting POI after POI. And they document that.

> > 6. ANET publishes how you flew over or walked through walls for gated content. And they document that

> > 7. And so on and so forth. BUT this is not going to happen.

> >

> > You left a program active and I don't understand by what you mean. It is obviously something that you used that was known it shouldn't be? I apologize because they merged my thread with this one and I cannot speak to your point. My guess is YES you will not be getting your account back before 6 months and NO I do not think ANET put out spyware. That would kill them legally and financially not to mention they do not even own the game so whatever the course they took was proactive and cautious and involved the original game designer NCSoft. 1583 accounts is a relatively a small amount of accounts. Maybe the last eight months they are investigating reports. Monitor you. Say yep add to the ban list. Maybe they weren't watching us at all via software......

> >

> > EDIT: I was a little late to the party and saw Gaile's response. So they were watching in some sort of way. My apologies but it does not affect the outcome nor my opinion if you used it and got banned it's on you. Quit trying to blame the company YOU were taking advantage of.

> >

> >

>

> "Taking Advantage of" Right I believe I already said it was JUST SITTING THERE. Doing nothing. Not affecting the game in anyway. I could not of been "Taking Advantage of them cause It was never actively sync'd to GW2 in the first place!.... Gods Help you cause you need to read....

 

You use cheat engine to cheat in "some" games but not GW2. No way to prove it in your case or others. It's running and ANET erred on the side of caution. Enjoy your ban.

 

[Vault Girl.6792]

> @"Kunzaito.8169" said:

> > GW2 rules do not say "no programs that do not interact in any way with gw2 but potentially could". It is against rules to use them to read/modify anything in GW2.

> > It's like.. when it's forbidden to record things, but not forbidden to have cameras with you, and still you get kicked out for having it.

>

> You keep trying to make this hair-splitting definition, but you are actually wrong:

>

> > 8. PROHIBITED AND IRREPARABLY HARMFUL ACTIVITIES CONCERNING ArenaNet

> >

> > You acknowledge that You may not, without signed written consent from a legally authorized representative of ArenaNet, do any of the following:

> >

> > Misappropriate, violate or infringe any third-party IP right;

> > Use any ArenaNet IP right except as permitted under this agreement or otherwise permitted in writing by ArenaNet;

> > Use, or provide others with, any software related to the Game, including any automation software (a.k.a. “bot”) or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game;

>

> It's literally right there. It says "you are not allowed to use xxx software." Full stop. Not "use and detectibly interact with GW2." Just "use." They detected such use. You are banned. End of story.

>

 

Cheat Engine is not designed to change or modify GW2. It _could_ be used for it.

[Deihnyx.6318]

Thanks Anet.

 

If you're aware of these programs and have them installed and running over weeks, you're knowledgeable enough to know the bad it can do and how it can ruins other people's fun.

There's no excuse.

 

So yeah, thanks Anet. Now if you could do something to make the pvp community less toxic, like ban afkers and rise alerts on some insults and stuff... that'd be amazing!

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

> @"Sky Fell.7604" said:

> It's a name. It would be the same program if it was called Disassembler Engine.

 

But it's not called that. It's called Cheat Engine. Its name pretty much tells and sells what it's meant to do. Besides, if players had stopped their cheating programs properly, they wouldn't have gotten suspended. Too bad they didn't.

 

See how that works?

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> Hello,

>

> I wanted to be sure that folks who are following or participating in this thread are aware that we've provided a lot of additional information this evening in [this post](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/476255/#Comment_476255 "this thread"). I hope that in reading that update, you'll find your questions are answered.

 

There are people that didn't use the mentioned softwares or dll. Are you sure these are the only ones you banned? No other debugger tools and network reading tools?

[Healix.5819]

> @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said:

> Let me get this right . . . people have to told not to run a program called CheatEngine while playing Guild Wars 2 now?

 

The only reason CheatEngine was targeted was because of its name. It's a legitimate debugging tool, not just for cheating. There's plenty of other tools like this that ArenaNet could have banned and they barely touched on the actual hack tools. To make this more obvious, imagine if they tried to stop bots by banning AutoHotKey. If ArenaNet wasn't going to actually verify how the software was being used, then they should have only targeted software that was specific to hacking in GW2. The joke is them trying to scare people while knowing that there would be false positives. They will no doubt end up reversing bans involving CheatEngine specifically with no other proof.

[Kunzaito.8169]

> A better analogy would be that you are attending an event that specifies no recording devices and the host covertly enters the homes of every attendee to determine if they own a camera.

 

Nope. Setting aside that an analogy is meant to illuminate a situation in a general sense to aid in understanding, not fit every single aspect, this twisting still doesn't fit. Roughly you would have to say that "attending the event" is "playing GW2," and your presence is your whole PC. Your PC isn't your home, locked and physically miles away from your participation. Its components, functions, and belongings are inextricably linked with your use of the software.

 

 

[Vault Girl.6792]

> @"usnedward.9023" said:

> You use cheat engine to cheat in "some" games but not GW2. No way to prove it in your case or others. It's running and ANET erred on the side of caution. Enjoy your ban.

 

And some people are sending gold to their friends, and there is no way to prove that they are not selling it. However, Anet usually doesn't ban them. But in this case they just banned a lot of users who didn't even modify anything in the game.