ilmi.5369 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > There's nothing confusing here, I gave you direct quotes from you yourself. > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. The whole conversation has got to a point which is totally pointless and repetitive but I will bite a last time before I'm out of here. You actually don't prove anything of your claims - you are quoting me but you don't actually respond to what I say. Instead you are writing your own opinion again and again. But let's have a closer look if you find it satisfying. > @"Legatus.3608" said: > Let's go back to what we agree with: > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row Yes that's among the things we agree on. furthermore I could list some more obvious things, such as that p/p thieves are less mobile than e.g. a d/p thief (assuming that he does not spec into daredevil which would give him the same amount of dodges and agility). > Here's what we do not agree with so far: No, this is not what we are not agreeing with. This is your list of things that, for some reason, you find important enough to discuss and I will comment on it a last time: > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) What is that 10 min video supposed to support? You can hardly see it as evidence of how all P/P out there are playing. On the contrary, it shows a dude that frequently uses stealth as a battle tactic and kills a bunch of people that continuously are making wrong combat decisions. While doing this, he permanently is investing is initiative not only in unloads but on porting across the map on shortbow or even stealthing with smoke field and cluster bomb. I guess you bring it as an example of skillful p/p play but you fail to see that he permanently does things you initially called out as untypical or unskilled behavior. It seems as if you are too busy busy with calling me wrong on whatever you think I'm saying, that you are adapting your arguments along the way. Besides, this thief is able to burst down his enemies without actually HAVING to surprise them, which does not mean that any other p/p thief would not facilitate his access to stealth for an ambush attack. For either a shorter duration without sacrificing any burst potential or for a longer duration by investing some more initiative. Either way, a p/p thief is able to attack on surprise and would facilitate this advantage if he can. Just browse the many other troll videos of people camping spawn on deadeye. > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) Group stealth is beneficial for the whole team and individual stealth is beneficial for yourself and one of the core principals of thief in a defensive and offensive matter. Not dying to enemy burst because you are not focused shure also is in the interest of your team as it helps to fulfill your role as a thief. I guess we can agree on that? While it of course comes with side effects (e.g. capture point prevention, distraction from team) those play at best a very very little role on the priority list of a thief. We are talking about a class that obviously uses stealth in order to NOT be focused and in order to operate unseen. You just posted a video of a thief who permanently uses stealth in order to escape or to reposition. You could get the feeling that we are discussing the role of a warrior or ranger. > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) No, it is not difficult, but it is a valid counter measure. And it is even easier to come stealthed myself and open the fight in my favor. Or to bomb the area with nuclear aoe damage where you just seen him disappearing . Or to be on a class like my warrior, firing up one of my many stun breaks when being hit by the first unload and then get shield block up, hoping that he is stupid enough to keep on unloading. But all that does not negate that it's not always in your hands to interrupt or counter him if he is getting you on surprise. When he already drained a significant part of your life pool before you can even target him and then brings you down in less than 2 seconds with another unload while you are busy with actually tracking him. While he is still on range. ready to show you more of his love with little to no effort. I mean just the fact that he can kill himself quite easily by reflect shows that unload does outperform in terms of damage and its frequency. THIS is where we disagree. > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) The video you just posted, shows exactly that. A thief who is moving around on the map, spending initiative on a lot of skill on his tool bar situational and still is able to unload when initiative is available. Also, I don't see what the comparison to d/p is good for. Does a d/p thief need no initiative to first get into stealth (or to maintain stealth for previously mentioned extreme up time of 10s) in order to actually do a backstab? And then? He as swell has to maintain initiative costs and landing a high amount of burst does not only require preparation and is more difficult to apply, it is also not es repeatable in the same time frame as unload spam is. If you just want to say that as a package in the whole d/p is superior, I agree. But what does that matter? > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. I explained myself for the greater good of an understanding but I'm happy to agree that we disagree and wont further pay attention to that discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > There's nothing confusing here, I gave you direct quotes from you yourself. > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > The whole conversation has got to a point which is totally pointless and repetitive but I will bite a last time before I'm out of here. > > You actually don't prove anything of your claims - you are quoting me but you don't actually respond to what I say. Instead you are writing your own opinion again and again. But let's have a closer look if you find it satisfying. > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > Yes that's among the things we agree on. furthermore I could list some more obvious things, such as that p/p thieves are less mobile than e.g. a d/p thief (assuming that he does not spec into daredevil which would give him the same amount of dodges and agility). > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > No, this is not what we are not agreeing with. This is your list of things that, for some reason, you find important enough to discuss and I will comment on it a last time: > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > What is that 10 min video supposed to support? You can hardly see it as evidence of how all P/P out there are playing. On the contrary, it shows a dude that frequently uses stealth as a battle tactic and kills a bunch of people that continuously are making wrong combat decisions. While doing this, he permanently is investing is initiative not only in unloads but on porting across the map on shortbow or even stealthing with smoke field and cluster bomb. I guess you bring it as an example of skillful p/p play but you fail to see that he permanently does things you initially called out as untypical or unskilled behavior. It seems as if you are too busy busy with calling me wrong on whatever you think I'm saying, that you are adapting your arguments along the way. > > Besides, this thief is able to burst down his enemies without actually HAVING to surprise them, which does not mean that any other p/p thief would not facilitate his access to stealth for an ambush attack. For either a shorter duration without sacrificing any burst potential or for a longer duration by investing some more initiative. Either way, a p/p thief is able to attack on surprise and would facilitate this advantage if he can. Just browse the many other troll videos of people camping spawn on deadeye. > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > Group stealth is beneficial for the whole team and individual stealth is beneficial for yourself and one of the core principals of thief in a defensive and offensive matter. Not dying to enemy burst because you are not focused shure also is in the interest of your team as it helps to fulfill your role as a thief. I guess we can agree on that? While it of course comes with side effects (e.g. capture point prevention, distraction from team) those play at best a very very little role on the priority list of a thief. We are talking about a class that obviously uses stealth in order to NOT be focused and in order to operate unseen. You just posted a video of a thief who permanently uses stealth in order to escape or to reposition. You could get the feeling that we are discussing the role of a warrior or ranger. > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > No, it is not difficult, but it is a valid counter measure. And it is even easier to come stealthed myself and open the fight in my favor. Or to bomb the area with nuclear aoe damage where you just seen him disappearing . Or to be on a class like my warrior, firing up one of my many stun breaks when being hit by the first unload and then get shield block up, hoping that he is stupid enough to keep on unloading. But all that does not negate that it's not always in your hands to interrupt or counter him if he is getting you on surprise. When he already drained a significant part of your life pool before you can even target him and then brings you down in less than 2 seconds with another unload while you are busy with actually tracking him. While he is still on range. ready to show you more of his love with little to no effort. I mean just the fact that he can kill himself quite easily by reflect shows that unload does outperform in terms of damage and its frequency. THIS is where we disagree. > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > The video you just posted, shows exactly that. A thief who is moving around on the map, spending initiative on a lot of skill on his tool bar situational and still is able to unload when initiative is available. > Also, I don't see what the comparison to d/p is good for. Does a d/p thief need no initiative to first get into stealth (or to maintain stealth for previously mentioned extreme up time of 10s) in order to actually do a backstab? And then? He as swell has to maintain initiative costs and landing a high amount of burst does not only require preparation and is more difficult to apply, it is also not es repeatable in the same time frame as unload spam is. If you just want to say that as a package in the whole d/p is superior, I agree. But what does that matter? > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > I explained myself for the greater good of an understanding but I'm happy to agree that we disagree and wont further pay attention to that discussion. > > > > Heh, no man. You keep accusing me of misquoting you and I'm not. Rather I'm having a hard time keeping track of the long paragraphs and in trying to get a concise picture of why specifically you think unload needs to be changed, and I still haven't figured it out because you keep arguing about stuff that as far as I can tell either isn't true or doesn't matter, one or the other. And I'm still not seeing what your issue is with this build. So let's just start there then, the title of the thread is that pistol pistol thief is too strong. Tell me why you agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kageseigi.2150 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Aza.2105" said: > Why would you want dagger and sword to receive the damage? That is the problem with the game, damage is TOO HIGH. Unfortunately, this game is an arms race. If all the damage/defenses were toned down significantly, then the Thief would not need the boost. However, in the current state of the game, the Thief's lethality is severely lacking for what it was designed for (single-target melee bursts). Also unfortunate, Anet has made Pistol/Pistol out-burst the Dagger and Sword. I don't know why they did it... it's nonsensical. Believe me, I want to play Dagger or Sword. But they are slower, less lethal, and much riskier than Pistols. I play a very fast, very mobile playstyle... that's why I play Thief. I'm always in motion from point to point, stopping just long enough to support teammates. With Pistols, I can do that much easier and faster. I can engage outside of lethal AoE, and actually contribute to downing enemies. In fact, I can do it while staying on the move toward the next point, which I cannot do in melee. If I could enter into melee and down an enemy as fast as I can with Pistols (which I would need to do just to survive), I'd be happy to do so. "Too high" is a subjective and relative measurement. While the damage in the game may very well be too high, the damage from one set compared to another as well as relative to defenses is what I'm more concerned with. The Thief's Dagger and Sword cannot compete with its Pistols. And that's not healthy for the Thief. However, a Thief without the power that Pistols currently have is also unhealthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 Can a Staff Thief (daredevil) beat a Deadeye P/P thief in a contest for a node (a 1 v 1)? Edit: I mean consistently. Like should it have the upper hand under normal circumstances. I feel bad that I even need to type this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > Can a Staff Thief (daredevil) beat a Deadeye P/P thief in a contest for a node (a 1 v 1)? > > Edit: I mean consistently. Like should it have the upper hand under normal circumstances. I feel bad that I even need to type this. There's no question that a staff thief should beat a deadeye 100% of the time, there's no reason for the deadeye to ever win such a matchup. The only reason you could die as the staff thief is from failure to press your buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddbopkins.2630 Posted April 27, 2018 Author Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > There's nothing confusing here, I gave you direct quotes from you yourself. > > > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > > > The whole conversation has got to a point which is totally pointless and repetitive but I will bite a last time before I'm out of here. > > > > You actually don't prove anything of your claims - you are quoting me but you don't actually respond to what I say. Instead you are writing your own opinion again and again. But let's have a closer look if you find it satisfying. > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > Yes that's among the things we agree on. furthermore I could list some more obvious things, such as that p/p thieves are less mobile than e.g. a d/p thief (assuming that he does not spec into daredevil which would give him the same amount of dodges and agility). > > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > No, this is not what we are not agreeing with. This is your list of things that, for some reason, you find important enough to discuss and I will comment on it a last time: > > > > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > What is that 10 min video supposed to support? You can hardly see it as evidence of how all P/P out there are playing. On the contrary, it shows a dude that frequently uses stealth as a battle tactic and kills a bunch of people that continuously are making wrong combat decisions. While doing this, he permanently is investing is initiative not only in unloads but on porting across the map on shortbow or even stealthing with smoke field and cluster bomb. I guess you bring it as an example of skillful p/p play but you fail to see that he permanently does things you initially called out as untypical or unskilled behavior. It seems as if you are too busy busy with calling me wrong on whatever you think I'm saying, that you are adapting your arguments along the way. > > > > Besides, this thief is able to burst down his enemies without actually HAVING to surprise them, which does not mean that any other p/p thief would not facilitate his access to stealth for an ambush attack. For either a shorter duration without sacrificing any burst potential or for a longer duration by investing some more initiative. Either way, a p/p thief is able to attack on surprise and would facilitate this advantage if he can. Just browse the many other troll videos of people camping spawn on deadeye. > > > > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > Group stealth is beneficial for the whole team and individual stealth is beneficial for yourself and one of the core principals of thief in a defensive and offensive matter. Not dying to enemy burst because you are not focused shure also is in the interest of your team as it helps to fulfill your role as a thief. I guess we can agree on that? While it of course comes with side effects (e.g. capture point prevention, distraction from team) those play at best a very very little role on the priority list of a thief. We are talking about a class that obviously uses stealth in order to NOT be focused and in order to operate unseen. You just posted a video of a thief who permanently uses stealth in order to escape or to reposition. You could get the feeling that we are discussing the role of a warrior or ranger. > > > > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > No, it is not difficult, but it is a valid counter measure. And it is even easier to come stealthed myself and open the fight in my favor. Or to bomb the area with nuclear aoe damage where you just seen him disappearing . Or to be on a class like my warrior, firing up one of my many stun breaks when being hit by the first unload and then get shield block up, hoping that he is stupid enough to keep on unloading. But all that does not negate that it's not always in your hands to interrupt or counter him if he is getting you on surprise. When he already drained a significant part of your life pool before you can even target him and then brings you down in less than 2 seconds with another unload while you are busy with actually tracking him. While he is still on range. ready to show you more of his love with little to no effort. I mean just the fact that he can kill himself quite easily by reflect shows that unload does outperform in terms of damage and its frequency. THIS is where we disagree. > > > > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > The video you just posted, shows exactly that. A thief who is moving around on the map, spending initiative on a lot of skill on his tool bar situational and still is able to unload when initiative is available. > > Also, I don't see what the comparison to d/p is good for. Does a d/p thief need no initiative to first get into stealth (or to maintain stealth for previously mentioned extreme up time of 10s) in order to actually do a backstab? And then? He as swell has to maintain initiative costs and landing a high amount of burst does not only require preparation and is more difficult to apply, it is also not es repeatable in the same time frame as unload spam is. If you just want to say that as a package in the whole d/p is superior, I agree. But what does that matter? > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > I explained myself for the greater good of an understanding but I'm happy to agree that we disagree and wont further pay attention to that discussion. > > > > > > > > > > Heh, no man. You keep accusing me of misquoting you and I'm not. > > Rather I'm having a hard time keeping track of the long paragraphs and in trying to get a concise picture of why specifically you think unload needs to be changed, and I still haven't figured it out because you keep arguing about stuff that as far as I can tell either isn't true or doesn't matter, one or the other. And I'm still not seeing what your issue is with this build. > > So let's just start there then, the title of the thread is that pistol pistol thief is too strong. Tell me why you agree. 15k+ burst from litterally standing still and pressing litterally 1 button kills any opportunity of this game being fun and skillfull. Its a great starter or finisher to a rotation but doing nothing but 3 for 15k+ is no fun or fair to fight against in a team fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > There's nothing confusing here, I gave you direct quotes from you yourself. > > > > > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > > > > > The whole conversation has got to a point which is totally pointless and repetitive but I will bite a last time before I'm out of here. > > > > > > You actually don't prove anything of your claims - you are quoting me but you don't actually respond to what I say. Instead you are writing your own opinion again and again. But let's have a closer look if you find it satisfying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > > Yes that's among the things we agree on. furthermore I could list some more obvious things, such as that p/p thieves are less mobile than e.g. a d/p thief (assuming that he does not spec into daredevil which would give him the same amount of dodges and agility). > > > > > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > > No, this is not what we are not agreeing with. This is your list of things that, for some reason, you find important enough to discuss and I will comment on it a last time: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > > What is that 10 min video supposed to support? You can hardly see it as evidence of how all P/P out there are playing. On the contrary, it shows a dude that frequently uses stealth as a battle tactic and kills a bunch of people that continuously are making wrong combat decisions. While doing this, he permanently is investing is initiative not only in unloads but on porting across the map on shortbow or even stealthing with smoke field and cluster bomb. I guess you bring it as an example of skillful p/p play but you fail to see that he permanently does things you initially called out as untypical or unskilled behavior. It seems as if you are too busy busy with calling me wrong on whatever you think I'm saying, that you are adapting your arguments along the way. > > > > > > Besides, this thief is able to burst down his enemies without actually HAVING to surprise them, which does not mean that any other p/p thief would not facilitate his access to stealth for an ambush attack. For either a shorter duration without sacrificing any burst potential or for a longer duration by investing some more initiative. Either way, a p/p thief is able to attack on surprise and would facilitate this advantage if he can. Just browse the many other troll videos of people camping spawn on deadeye. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > > Group stealth is beneficial for the whole team and individual stealth is beneficial for yourself and one of the core principals of thief in a defensive and offensive matter. Not dying to enemy burst because you are not focused shure also is in the interest of your team as it helps to fulfill your role as a thief. I guess we can agree on that? While it of course comes with side effects (e.g. capture point prevention, distraction from team) those play at best a very very little role on the priority list of a thief. We are talking about a class that obviously uses stealth in order to NOT be focused and in order to operate unseen. You just posted a video of a thief who permanently uses stealth in order to escape or to reposition. You could get the feeling that we are discussing the role of a warrior or ranger. > > > > > > > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > > No, it is not difficult, but it is a valid counter measure. And it is even easier to come stealthed myself and open the fight in my favor. Or to bomb the area with nuclear aoe damage where you just seen him disappearing . Or to be on a class like my warrior, firing up one of my many stun breaks when being hit by the first unload and then get shield block up, hoping that he is stupid enough to keep on unloading. But all that does not negate that it's not always in your hands to interrupt or counter him if he is getting you on surprise. When he already drained a significant part of your life pool before you can even target him and then brings you down in less than 2 seconds with another unload while you are busy with actually tracking him. While he is still on range. ready to show you more of his love with little to no effort. I mean just the fact that he can kill himself quite easily by reflect shows that unload does outperform in terms of damage and its frequency. THIS is where we disagree. > > > > > > > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > > The video you just posted, shows exactly that. A thief who is moving around on the map, spending initiative on a lot of skill on his tool bar situational and still is able to unload when initiative is available. > > > Also, I don't see what the comparison to d/p is good for. Does a d/p thief need no initiative to first get into stealth (or to maintain stealth for previously mentioned extreme up time of 10s) in order to actually do a backstab? And then? He as swell has to maintain initiative costs and landing a high amount of burst does not only require preparation and is more difficult to apply, it is also not es repeatable in the same time frame as unload spam is. If you just want to say that as a package in the whole d/p is superior, I agree. But what does that matter? > > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > > I explained myself for the greater good of an understanding but I'm happy to agree that we disagree and wont further pay attention to that discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heh, no man. You keep accusing me of misquoting you and I'm not. > > > > Rather I'm having a hard time keeping track of the long paragraphs and in trying to get a concise picture of why specifically you think unload needs to be changed, and I still haven't figured it out because you keep arguing about stuff that as far as I can tell either isn't true or doesn't matter, one or the other. And I'm still not seeing what your issue is with this build. > > > > So let's just start there then, the title of the thread is that pistol pistol thief is too strong. Tell me why you agree. > > 15k+ burst from litterally standing still and pressing litterally 1 button kills any opportunity of this game being fun and skillfull. > > Its a great starter or finisher to a rotation but doing nothing but 3 for 15k+ is no fun or fair to fight against in a team fight. There isn't a class in this game that can't do 15k damage in one second. Not a single class lacks that capability. NOT ONE. And thief has to give up literally everything to do it - the dp mobility, the evades, even the stealth (which I stand by my decision is useless but I digress), and general ability to win games against anyone who knows how to push the buttons on their keyboard. Why is thief doing 15k on a glass build, which is glassier than any other build, OP and all those other 15k attacks are fine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 Fair or not I think there has always been the problem given the thief’s unique resource system and stealth. People will always hate thief and Mesmer as they aren’t fun to play against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majirah.5089 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > There's nothing confusing here, I gave you direct quotes from you yourself. > > > > > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > > > > > The whole conversation has got to a point which is totally pointless and repetitive but I will bite a last time before I'm out of here. > > > > > > You actually don't prove anything of your claims - you are quoting me but you don't actually respond to what I say. Instead you are writing your own opinion again and again. But let's have a closer look if you find it satisfying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > > Yes that's among the things we agree on. furthermore I could list some more obvious things, such as that p/p thieves are less mobile than e.g. a d/p thief (assuming that he does not spec into daredevil which would give him the same amount of dodges and agility). > > > > > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > > No, this is not what we are not agreeing with. This is your list of things that, for some reason, you find important enough to discuss and I will comment on it a last time: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > > What is that 10 min video supposed to support? You can hardly see it as evidence of how all P/P out there are playing. On the contrary, it shows a dude that frequently uses stealth as a battle tactic and kills a bunch of people that continuously are making wrong combat decisions. While doing this, he permanently is investing is initiative not only in unloads but on porting across the map on shortbow or even stealthing with smoke field and cluster bomb. I guess you bring it as an example of skillful p/p play but you fail to see that he permanently does things you initially called out as untypical or unskilled behavior. It seems as if you are too busy busy with calling me wrong on whatever you think I'm saying, that you are adapting your arguments along the way. > > > > > > Besides, this thief is able to burst down his enemies without actually HAVING to surprise them, which does not mean that any other p/p thief would not facilitate his access to stealth for an ambush attack. For either a shorter duration without sacrificing any burst potential or for a longer duration by investing some more initiative. Either way, a p/p thief is able to attack on surprise and would facilitate this advantage if he can. Just browse the many other troll videos of people camping spawn on deadeye. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > > Group stealth is beneficial for the whole team and individual stealth is beneficial for yourself and one of the core principals of thief in a defensive and offensive matter. Not dying to enemy burst because you are not focused shure also is in the interest of your team as it helps to fulfill your role as a thief. I guess we can agree on that? While it of course comes with side effects (e.g. capture point prevention, distraction from team) those play at best a very very little role on the priority list of a thief. We are talking about a class that obviously uses stealth in order to NOT be focused and in order to operate unseen. You just posted a video of a thief who permanently uses stealth in order to escape or to reposition. You could get the feeling that we are discussing the role of a warrior or ranger. > > > > > > > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > > No, it is not difficult, but it is a valid counter measure. And it is even easier to come stealthed myself and open the fight in my favor. Or to bomb the area with nuclear aoe damage where you just seen him disappearing . Or to be on a class like my warrior, firing up one of my many stun breaks when being hit by the first unload and then get shield block up, hoping that he is stupid enough to keep on unloading. But all that does not negate that it's not always in your hands to interrupt or counter him if he is getting you on surprise. When he already drained a significant part of your life pool before you can even target him and then brings you down in less than 2 seconds with another unload while you are busy with actually tracking him. While he is still on range. ready to show you more of his love with little to no effort. I mean just the fact that he can kill himself quite easily by reflect shows that unload does outperform in terms of damage and its frequency. THIS is where we disagree. > > > > > > > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > > The video you just posted, shows exactly that. A thief who is moving around on the map, spending initiative on a lot of skill on his tool bar situational and still is able to unload when initiative is available. > > > Also, I don't see what the comparison to d/p is good for. Does a d/p thief need no initiative to first get into stealth (or to maintain stealth for previously mentioned extreme up time of 10s) in order to actually do a backstab? And then? He as swell has to maintain initiative costs and landing a high amount of burst does not only require preparation and is more difficult to apply, it is also not es repeatable in the same time frame as unload spam is. If you just want to say that as a package in the whole d/p is superior, I agree. But what does that matter? > > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > > I explained myself for the greater good of an understanding but I'm happy to agree that we disagree and wont further pay attention to that discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heh, no man. You keep accusing me of misquoting you and I'm not. > > > > Rather I'm having a hard time keeping track of the long paragraphs and in trying to get a concise picture of why specifically you think unload needs to be changed, and I still haven't figured it out because you keep arguing about stuff that as far as I can tell either isn't true or doesn't matter, one or the other. And I'm still not seeing what your issue is with this build. > > > > So let's just start there then, the title of the thread is that pistol pistol thief is too strong. Tell me why you agree. > > 15k+ burst from litterally standing still and pressing litterally 1 button kills any opportunity of this game being fun and skillfull. > > Its a great starter or finisher to a rotation but doing nothing but 3 for 15k+ is no fun or fair to fight against in a team fight. Um there are plenty of classes and weapons that can hit for 15k+. That is not unique to PP thief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddbopkins.2630 Posted April 27, 2018 Author Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > There's nothing confusing here, I gave you direct quotes from you yourself. > > > > > > > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > > > > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > > > > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > > > > > > > The whole conversation has got to a point which is totally pointless and repetitive but I will bite a last time before I'm out of here. > > > > > > > > You actually don't prove anything of your claims - you are quoting me but you don't actually respond to what I say. Instead you are writing your own opinion again and again. But let's have a closer look if you find it satisfying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > > > Yes that's among the things we agree on. furthermore I could list some more obvious things, such as that p/p thieves are less mobile than e.g. a d/p thief (assuming that he does not spec into daredevil which would give him the same amount of dodges and agility). > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > > > No, this is not what we are not agreeing with. This is your list of things that, for some reason, you find important enough to discuss and I will comment on it a last time: > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > > > What is that 10 min video supposed to support? You can hardly see it as evidence of how all P/P out there are playing. On the contrary, it shows a dude that frequently uses stealth as a battle tactic and kills a bunch of people that continuously are making wrong combat decisions. While doing this, he permanently is investing is initiative not only in unloads but on porting across the map on shortbow or even stealthing with smoke field and cluster bomb. I guess you bring it as an example of skillful p/p play but you fail to see that he permanently does things you initially called out as untypical or unskilled behavior. It seems as if you are too busy busy with calling me wrong on whatever you think I'm saying, that you are adapting your arguments along the way. > > > > > > > > Besides, this thief is able to burst down his enemies without actually HAVING to surprise them, which does not mean that any other p/p thief would not facilitate his access to stealth for an ambush attack. For either a shorter duration without sacrificing any burst potential or for a longer duration by investing some more initiative. Either way, a p/p thief is able to attack on surprise and would facilitate this advantage if he can. Just browse the many other troll videos of people camping spawn on deadeye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > > > Group stealth is beneficial for the whole team and individual stealth is beneficial for yourself and one of the core principals of thief in a defensive and offensive matter. Not dying to enemy burst because you are not focused shure also is in the interest of your team as it helps to fulfill your role as a thief. I guess we can agree on that? While it of course comes with side effects (e.g. capture point prevention, distraction from team) those play at best a very very little role on the priority list of a thief. We are talking about a class that obviously uses stealth in order to NOT be focused and in order to operate unseen. You just posted a video of a thief who permanently uses stealth in order to escape or to reposition. You could get the feeling that we are discussing the role of a warrior or ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > > > No, it is not difficult, but it is a valid counter measure. And it is even easier to come stealthed myself and open the fight in my favor. Or to bomb the area with nuclear aoe damage where you just seen him disappearing . Or to be on a class like my warrior, firing up one of my many stun breaks when being hit by the first unload and then get shield block up, hoping that he is stupid enough to keep on unloading. But all that does not negate that it's not always in your hands to interrupt or counter him if he is getting you on surprise. When he already drained a significant part of your life pool before you can even target him and then brings you down in less than 2 seconds with another unload while you are busy with actually tracking him. While he is still on range. ready to show you more of his love with little to no effort. I mean just the fact that he can kill himself quite easily by reflect shows that unload does outperform in terms of damage and its frequency. THIS is where we disagree. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > > > The video you just posted, shows exactly that. A thief who is moving around on the map, spending initiative on a lot of skill on his tool bar situational and still is able to unload when initiative is available. > > > > Also, I don't see what the comparison to d/p is good for. Does a d/p thief need no initiative to first get into stealth (or to maintain stealth for previously mentioned extreme up time of 10s) in order to actually do a backstab? And then? He as swell has to maintain initiative costs and landing a high amount of burst does not only require preparation and is more difficult to apply, it is also not es repeatable in the same time frame as unload spam is. If you just want to say that as a package in the whole d/p is superior, I agree. But what does that matter? > > > > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > > > I explained myself for the greater good of an understanding but I'm happy to agree that we disagree and wont further pay attention to that discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heh, no man. You keep accusing me of misquoting you and I'm not. > > > > > > Rather I'm having a hard time keeping track of the long paragraphs and in trying to get a concise picture of why specifically you think unload needs to be changed, and I still haven't figured it out because you keep arguing about stuff that as far as I can tell either isn't true or doesn't matter, one or the other. And I'm still not seeing what your issue is with this build. > > > > > > So let's just start there then, the title of the thread is that pistol pistol thief is too strong. Tell me why you agree. > > > > 15k+ burst from litterally standing still and pressing litterally 1 button kills any opportunity of this game being fun and skillfull. > > > > Its a great starter or finisher to a rotation but doing nothing but 3 for 15k+ is no fun or fair to fight against in a team fight. > > There isn't a class in this game that can't do 15k damage in one second. Not a single class lacks that capability. NOT ONE. > > And thief has to give up literally everything to do it - the dp mobility, the evades, even the stealth (which I stand by my decision is useless but I digress), and general ability to win games against anyone who knows how to push the buttons on their keyboard. > > Why is thief doing 15k on a glass build, which is glassier than any other build, OP and all those other 15k attacks are fine? Those other classes dont do it by litterally pressing 1 button as fast as possible Id like to see some kind of rotaion to that build is all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > There's nothing confusing here, I gave you direct quotes from you yourself. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > > > > > > > > > The whole conversation has got to a point which is totally pointless and repetitive but I will bite a last time before I'm out of here. > > > > > > > > > > You actually don't prove anything of your claims - you are quoting me but you don't actually respond to what I say. Instead you are writing your own opinion again and again. But let's have a closer look if you find it satisfying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > > > > Yes that's among the things we agree on. furthermore I could list some more obvious things, such as that p/p thieves are less mobile than e.g. a d/p thief (assuming that he does not spec into daredevil which would give him the same amount of dodges and agility). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > > > > No, this is not what we are not agreeing with. This is your list of things that, for some reason, you find important enough to discuss and I will comment on it a last time: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > > > > What is that 10 min video supposed to support? You can hardly see it as evidence of how all P/P out there are playing. On the contrary, it shows a dude that frequently uses stealth as a battle tactic and kills a bunch of people that continuously are making wrong combat decisions. While doing this, he permanently is investing is initiative not only in unloads but on porting across the map on shortbow or even stealthing with smoke field and cluster bomb. I guess you bring it as an example of skillful p/p play but you fail to see that he permanently does things you initially called out as untypical or unskilled behavior. It seems as if you are too busy busy with calling me wrong on whatever you think I'm saying, that you are adapting your arguments along the way. > > > > > > > > > > Besides, this thief is able to burst down his enemies without actually HAVING to surprise them, which does not mean that any other p/p thief would not facilitate his access to stealth for an ambush attack. For either a shorter duration without sacrificing any burst potential or for a longer duration by investing some more initiative. Either way, a p/p thief is able to attack on surprise and would facilitate this advantage if he can. Just browse the many other troll videos of people camping spawn on deadeye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > > > > Group stealth is beneficial for the whole team and individual stealth is beneficial for yourself and one of the core principals of thief in a defensive and offensive matter. Not dying to enemy burst because you are not focused shure also is in the interest of your team as it helps to fulfill your role as a thief. I guess we can agree on that? While it of course comes with side effects (e.g. capture point prevention, distraction from team) those play at best a very very little role on the priority list of a thief. We are talking about a class that obviously uses stealth in order to NOT be focused and in order to operate unseen. You just posted a video of a thief who permanently uses stealth in order to escape or to reposition. You could get the feeling that we are discussing the role of a warrior or ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > > > > No, it is not difficult, but it is a valid counter measure. And it is even easier to come stealthed myself and open the fight in my favor. Or to bomb the area with nuclear aoe damage where you just seen him disappearing . Or to be on a class like my warrior, firing up one of my many stun breaks when being hit by the first unload and then get shield block up, hoping that he is stupid enough to keep on unloading. But all that does not negate that it's not always in your hands to interrupt or counter him if he is getting you on surprise. When he already drained a significant part of your life pool before you can even target him and then brings you down in less than 2 seconds with another unload while you are busy with actually tracking him. While he is still on range. ready to show you more of his love with little to no effort. I mean just the fact that he can kill himself quite easily by reflect shows that unload does outperform in terms of damage and its frequency. THIS is where we disagree. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > > > > The video you just posted, shows exactly that. A thief who is moving around on the map, spending initiative on a lot of skill on his tool bar situational and still is able to unload when initiative is available. > > > > > Also, I don't see what the comparison to d/p is good for. Does a d/p thief need no initiative to first get into stealth (or to maintain stealth for previously mentioned extreme up time of 10s) in order to actually do a backstab? And then? He as swell has to maintain initiative costs and landing a high amount of burst does not only require preparation and is more difficult to apply, it is also not es repeatable in the same time frame as unload spam is. If you just want to say that as a package in the whole d/p is superior, I agree. But what does that matter? > > > > > > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > > > > I explained myself for the greater good of an understanding but I'm happy to agree that we disagree and wont further pay attention to that discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heh, no man. You keep accusing me of misquoting you and I'm not. > > > > > > > > Rather I'm having a hard time keeping track of the long paragraphs and in trying to get a concise picture of why specifically you think unload needs to be changed, and I still haven't figured it out because you keep arguing about stuff that as far as I can tell either isn't true or doesn't matter, one or the other. And I'm still not seeing what your issue is with this build. > > > > > > > > So let's just start there then, the title of the thread is that pistol pistol thief is too strong. Tell me why you agree. > > > > > > 15k+ burst from litterally standing still and pressing litterally 1 button kills any opportunity of this game being fun and skillfull. > > > > > > Its a great starter or finisher to a rotation but doing nothing but 3 for 15k+ is no fun or fair to fight against in a team fight. > > > > There isn't a class in this game that can't do 15k damage in one second. Not a single class lacks that capability. NOT ONE. > > > > And thief has to give up literally everything to do it - the dp mobility, the evades, even the stealth (which I stand by my decision is useless but I digress), and general ability to win games against anyone who knows how to push the buttons on their keyboard. > > > > Why is thief doing 15k on a glass build, which is glassier than any other build, OP and all those other 15k attacks are fine? > > Those other classes dont do it by litterally pressing 1 button as fast as possible > Id like to see some kind of rotaion to that build is all Ok sure, give it a rotation of some kind, but that has nothing to do with the skill being too powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmi.5369 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @Legatus.3608> Heh, no man. You keep accusing me of misquoting you and I'm not. > > Rather I'm having a hard time keeping track of the long paragraphs and in trying to get a concise picture of why specifically you think unload needs to be changed, and I still haven't figured it out because you keep arguing about stuff that as far as I can tell either isn't true or doesn't matter, one or the other. And I'm still not seeing what your issue is with this build. > > So let's just start there then, the title of the thread is that pistol pistol thief is too strong. Tell me why you agree. OK, do not want make accusations. I thought that I already was pretty clear. The reason for writing long paragraphs, is that I expect people to not only jump on one sentence but to look at the whole picture and the context (that involves also previous comments). Maybe my English ist just not good enough. You are asking sincerely, so I'm trying to give a comprehensive answer. Although, this will overlap with what I and others have already expressed in this thread. Before doing that, let me add that this just my impression and that by no means am claiming to know that every p/p thief has to do play in a specific way or that I consider any play style as to be the most efficient one - for the team or the success of a match. It's just that the play style I have seen in the matches I played this season, is so damn annoying, that I have no fun to play it myself. Nor do I want to fight against this build. Even though counter measure exist and have been discussed in this thread. So, that's enough of a disclaimer ;-) Why do I believe that p/p is too strong? Well, I actually do not believe that. It is not too strong! It can even be a liability to your team, as it is very one dimensional. Still p/p can be succesfull in terms of killing enemies fast with little to no risk and can be used for map control, as well as any other thief build if played with DD trait line. Also Unload as a skill does too much damage and is too forgiving. While burst can be done by pretty much any other class, these classes USUALLY do this by facilitating a fair amount of their available skill set, involving some kind of rotations. Even other thief builds are not successfull by only spamming their hard hitter but by playing some kind of skill priorities. In fact, as of now, a melee thief has to do some heavy lifting, to be on par with other classes damage wise: he has not only the lowest life pool but also suffers big time by that power aoe meta. Also, the amount of invulns and blocks out there (passives have just been nerfed, but still...) makes it hard to always land the hard hitters making him one of the worst duel classes in this meta. So, his role basically is reduced to map control and +1, which he still does decently but overshadowed by mesmer power creep.. So, here is my answer to your question: thief as a melee class in terms of damage,is not only overshadowed by pretty much any other class in the game, but also by the p/p build. But Instead of giving some more damage to melee thief, p/p has received it (most likely beacause before no one played it). But they did it not in a thoughtful manner by overhauling the whole build (as they recently did with mesmer phantasms without anyone having asked for that) to make it a competitive package. They just buffed one skill too much, so that literally everyone can be successful with it to a certain degree (let's just assume until gold rank). You can **pretty much unnoticed** burst down people by using **only one skill**. There is no other ranged class that can do that **with such little effort** in that **short time frame**. I see FA ele as an exception but he has to do more work and has a bit more wind up time to be succesfull + comes with other risks. You could argue about power ranger but he has mainly rapid fire that come with comparable numbers and that skill is only available once every 10 seconds or so. Also holo is bursti but on no class it has ever drained my life pool as fast as a p/p thief. The point is that beside the easy and high damage of unload p/p is NOT that good, and as a thief player I'm not only left with melee builds that are not that strong anymore, but also with a range build that is not overpowered in the whole, but does situational the only thing it can can do **too well**. Especially against low health pool a.k.a other thieves but also against other classes. My suggestion? Probably a never to happen unrealistic wish but here we go: Tone down damage of unload and/or take away the initiative refund and might stack in pvp/wvw only. Instead change pistol mh 1 and 2 to perform better as a power weapon set. Improve the kiting potential for pistol 2. As of now, it is built around condition. Alternatively, make unload a condition skill to better synergize with p MH 1 and 2. On a condition set it would maybe be worthy to take needle trap or other cc utilities on board, so that it could becomes more of a kiting style build with bleeds. Maybe also the trait lines need some overhaul to better work with pistol main hand builds but that's not a must. Whatever change is done, it should be centered around trying to discourage the spamming of one skill that is over performing and which leaves you with little worthy alternatives. Maybe you guys have different ideas... I'm telling you a secret: the reason why I made a thief when the game came out was the pre publishing marketing videos by arenanet as they had a scene with p/p thief that looked pretty fun and fluent. I pretty soon realized that it was not as cool as in the video and changed to melee. Back in these days double dagger thieves were damn annoying and spammed HS but that is not anymore (which is good). Also to be honest, I do not understand the community (I'm not addressing anyone specific). There are hundred of posts that not only cry about mesmer being OP but also bringing up pretty good suggestions about what can be done about it. Here I read mainly (yes, there are exceptions) either complaints about p/p being too strong or justification why it's basically OK that p/p thief has a spammable hard hitter being able to insta gip people. I wish to have a bit more constructive read that should be beneficial for everyone and be centered about bringing (p/p) thief on par. If A-Net then would do anything about it is a different question... So long . Thanks if you read until here and sorry if this was not comprehensive enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elxdark.9702 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 this is a problem anet did for free, every damn patch where they buffed pp they added damage damage and more damage when in reality what the weapon set needs is more variety and an accesible way to disengage but no they kept adding more damage and now you see the results a one shot gimmick build that is really bad however it works because the damage is so high and fast that not many people can react to it. And the worst of this is that you only need to press 1 button just look at unload, anet basically wanted thieves to spam that skill over and over again because they weren't able to bring something else to the weapon set other than damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > There's nothing confusing here, I gave you direct quotes from you yourself. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > > > > > > > > > The whole conversation has got to a point which is totally pointless and repetitive but I will bite a last time before I'm out of here. > > > > > > > > > > You actually don't prove anything of your claims - you are quoting me but you don't actually respond to what I say. Instead you are writing your own opinion again and again. But let's have a closer look if you find it satisfying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > > > > Yes that's among the things we agree on. furthermore I could list some more obvious things, such as that p/p thieves are less mobile than e.g. a d/p thief (assuming that he does not spec into daredevil which would give him the same amount of dodges and agility). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > > > > No, this is not what we are not agreeing with. This is your list of things that, for some reason, you find important enough to discuss and I will comment on it a last time: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > > > > What is that 10 min video supposed to support? You can hardly see it as evidence of how all P/P out there are playing. On the contrary, it shows a dude that frequently uses stealth as a battle tactic and kills a bunch of people that continuously are making wrong combat decisions. While doing this, he permanently is investing is initiative not only in unloads but on porting across the map on shortbow or even stealthing with smoke field and cluster bomb. I guess you bring it as an example of skillful p/p play but you fail to see that he permanently does things you initially called out as untypical or unskilled behavior. It seems as if you are too busy busy with calling me wrong on whatever you think I'm saying, that you are adapting your arguments along the way. > > > > > > > > > > Besides, this thief is able to burst down his enemies without actually HAVING to surprise them, which does not mean that any other p/p thief would not facilitate his access to stealth for an ambush attack. For either a shorter duration without sacrificing any burst potential or for a longer duration by investing some more initiative. Either way, a p/p thief is able to attack on surprise and would facilitate this advantage if he can. Just browse the many other troll videos of people camping spawn on deadeye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > > > > Group stealth is beneficial for the whole team and individual stealth is beneficial for yourself and one of the core principals of thief in a defensive and offensive matter. Not dying to enemy burst because you are not focused shure also is in the interest of your team as it helps to fulfill your role as a thief. I guess we can agree on that? While it of course comes with side effects (e.g. capture point prevention, distraction from team) those play at best a very very little role on the priority list of a thief. We are talking about a class that obviously uses stealth in order to NOT be focused and in order to operate unseen. You just posted a video of a thief who permanently uses stealth in order to escape or to reposition. You could get the feeling that we are discussing the role of a warrior or ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > > > > No, it is not difficult, but it is a valid counter measure. And it is even easier to come stealthed myself and open the fight in my favor. Or to bomb the area with nuclear aoe damage where you just seen him disappearing . Or to be on a class like my warrior, firing up one of my many stun breaks when being hit by the first unload and then get shield block up, hoping that he is stupid enough to keep on unloading. But all that does not negate that it's not always in your hands to interrupt or counter him if he is getting you on surprise. When he already drained a significant part of your life pool before you can even target him and then brings you down in less than 2 seconds with another unload while you are busy with actually tracking him. While he is still on range. ready to show you more of his love with little to no effort. I mean just the fact that he can kill himself quite easily by reflect shows that unload does outperform in terms of damage and its frequency. THIS is where we disagree. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > > > > The video you just posted, shows exactly that. A thief who is moving around on the map, spending initiative on a lot of skill on his tool bar situational and still is able to unload when initiative is available. > > > > > Also, I don't see what the comparison to d/p is good for. Does a d/p thief need no initiative to first get into stealth (or to maintain stealth for previously mentioned extreme up time of 10s) in order to actually do a backstab? And then? He as swell has to maintain initiative costs and landing a high amount of burst does not only require preparation and is more difficult to apply, it is also not es repeatable in the same time frame as unload spam is. If you just want to say that as a package in the whole d/p is superior, I agree. But what does that matter? > > > > > > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > > > > I explained myself for the greater good of an understanding but I'm happy to agree that we disagree and wont further pay attention to that discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heh, no man. You keep accusing me of misquoting you and I'm not. > > > > > > > > Rather I'm having a hard time keeping track of the long paragraphs and in trying to get a concise picture of why specifically you think unload needs to be changed, and I still haven't figured it out because you keep arguing about stuff that as far as I can tell either isn't true or doesn't matter, one or the other. And I'm still not seeing what your issue is with this build. > > > > > > > > So let's just start there then, the title of the thread is that pistol pistol thief is too strong. Tell me why you agree. > > > > > > 15k+ burst from litterally standing still and pressing litterally 1 button kills any opportunity of this game being fun and skillfull. > > > > > > Its a great starter or finisher to a rotation but doing nothing but 3 for 15k+ is no fun or fair to fight against in a team fight. > > > > There isn't a class in this game that can't do 15k damage in one second. Not a single class lacks that capability. NOT ONE. > > > > And thief has to give up literally everything to do it - the dp mobility, the evades, even the stealth (which I stand by my decision is useless but I digress), and general ability to win games against anyone who knows how to push the buttons on their keyboard. > > > > Why is thief doing 15k on a glass build, which is glassier than any other build, OP and all those other 15k attacks are fine? > > Those other classes dont do it by litterally pressing 1 button as fast as possible > Id like to see some kind of rotaion to that build is all Why do you NEED that rotation and HOW will it be implemented? People like to toss out suggestions but never adequately explain why the suggestion necessary and never consider the ramifications of the alternatives. Thief can spam skills. That is a given and that was the intent of their design from the get go. They have an INI pool that allows the same skill usage several times in a row with the downside that this would shut down all other skills if INI expended outside the AA. That is not going to change unless the entire class redone and redoing the entire class just to make it more like the other classes will just result in another class that plays just like those other classes all for the sake of "skill rotation" . Virtually every other class has skill rotation inherent. I do not see why more of the same needed. Given they can spam skills (and no AMMO is not a solution here, it one of the worst sugestions I have heard as INI is already AMMO) in order to "force" them to use a skill other than unload for whatever reason a person might think required, those other skills have to allow better utility , damage , or defenses in a p/p build. The only way to really do that is through the AA , or 2 , 4 or 5. 4 and 5 have ALREADY been nerfed because they were seen as offering to much in other builds and in particular d/p. Boosting these to force p/p thief to use them more will boost d/p and s/p. AA getting more damage is what they attempted to do with d/x and s/x both leading to further nerfs. The flimsy nature of thief means they have to put out damage quickly and in spikes simply because they can not absorb as much damage as other classes. If the damage to shift to the AA then it has to be a significant boost to the same otherwise there little point to it. Added to that this would not change the usage of AA over Unload much at all. Unload thief that sticks to pistol already uses plenty of AA attacks because when they low on INI they have no other attacks. P/P thief is NOT OP and any making that suggestion has not been able to support it with the facts. It has way too many things in the way of counters and just as P/p thief focuses on the unload, classes fighting against the same need only focus on the unload which all manner of skills they have available can neutralize. So again , in lowering the damage potential of UNLOAD for the sake of "rotation of skills" boosts must be made to the other skills. When d/p or p/d get these boosts we will see the whining start anew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddbopkins.2630 Posted April 27, 2018 Author Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > There's nothing confusing here, I gave you direct quotes from you yourself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > > > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > > > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > > > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > > > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > > > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > > > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > > > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > > > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > The whole conversation has got to a point which is totally pointless and repetitive but I will bite a last time before I'm out of here. > > > > > > > > > > > > You actually don't prove anything of your claims - you are quoting me but you don't actually respond to what I say. Instead you are writing your own opinion again and again. But let's have a closer look if you find it satisfying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > > > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > > > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > > > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > > > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > > > > > Yes that's among the things we agree on. furthermore I could list some more obvious things, such as that p/p thieves are less mobile than e.g. a d/p thief (assuming that he does not spec into daredevil which would give him the same amount of dodges and agility). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > > > > > No, this is not what we are not agreeing with. This is your list of things that, for some reason, you find important enough to discuss and I will comment on it a last time: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > > > > > What is that 10 min video supposed to support? You can hardly see it as evidence of how all P/P out there are playing. On the contrary, it shows a dude that frequently uses stealth as a battle tactic and kills a bunch of people that continuously are making wrong combat decisions. While doing this, he permanently is investing is initiative not only in unloads but on porting across the map on shortbow or even stealthing with smoke field and cluster bomb. I guess you bring it as an example of skillful p/p play but you fail to see that he permanently does things you initially called out as untypical or unskilled behavior. It seems as if you are too busy busy with calling me wrong on whatever you think I'm saying, that you are adapting your arguments along the way. > > > > > > > > > > > > Besides, this thief is able to burst down his enemies without actually HAVING to surprise them, which does not mean that any other p/p thief would not facilitate his access to stealth for an ambush attack. For either a shorter duration without sacrificing any burst potential or for a longer duration by investing some more initiative. Either way, a p/p thief is able to attack on surprise and would facilitate this advantage if he can. Just browse the many other troll videos of people camping spawn on deadeye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > > > > > Group stealth is beneficial for the whole team and individual stealth is beneficial for yourself and one of the core principals of thief in a defensive and offensive matter. Not dying to enemy burst because you are not focused shure also is in the interest of your team as it helps to fulfill your role as a thief. I guess we can agree on that? While it of course comes with side effects (e.g. capture point prevention, distraction from team) those play at best a very very little role on the priority list of a thief. We are talking about a class that obviously uses stealth in order to NOT be focused and in order to operate unseen. You just posted a video of a thief who permanently uses stealth in order to escape or to reposition. You could get the feeling that we are discussing the role of a warrior or ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > > > > > No, it is not difficult, but it is a valid counter measure. And it is even easier to come stealthed myself and open the fight in my favor. Or to bomb the area with nuclear aoe damage where you just seen him disappearing . Or to be on a class like my warrior, firing up one of my many stun breaks when being hit by the first unload and then get shield block up, hoping that he is stupid enough to keep on unloading. But all that does not negate that it's not always in your hands to interrupt or counter him if he is getting you on surprise. When he already drained a significant part of your life pool before you can even target him and then brings you down in less than 2 seconds with another unload while you are busy with actually tracking him. While he is still on range. ready to show you more of his love with little to no effort. I mean just the fact that he can kill himself quite easily by reflect shows that unload does outperform in terms of damage and its frequency. THIS is where we disagree. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > > > > > The video you just posted, shows exactly that. A thief who is moving around on the map, spending initiative on a lot of skill on his tool bar situational and still is able to unload when initiative is available. > > > > > > Also, I don't see what the comparison to d/p is good for. Does a d/p thief need no initiative to first get into stealth (or to maintain stealth for previously mentioned extreme up time of 10s) in order to actually do a backstab? And then? He as swell has to maintain initiative costs and landing a high amount of burst does not only require preparation and is more difficult to apply, it is also not es repeatable in the same time frame as unload spam is. If you just want to say that as a package in the whole d/p is superior, I agree. But what does that matter? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > > > > > I explained myself for the greater good of an understanding but I'm happy to agree that we disagree and wont further pay attention to that discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heh, no man. You keep accusing me of misquoting you and I'm not. > > > > > > > > > > Rather I'm having a hard time keeping track of the long paragraphs and in trying to get a concise picture of why specifically you think unload needs to be changed, and I still haven't figured it out because you keep arguing about stuff that as far as I can tell either isn't true or doesn't matter, one or the other. And I'm still not seeing what your issue is with this build. > > > > > > > > > > So let's just start there then, the title of the thread is that pistol pistol thief is too strong. Tell me why you agree. > > > > > > > > 15k+ burst from litterally standing still and pressing litterally 1 button kills any opportunity of this game being fun and skillfull. > > > > > > > > Its a great starter or finisher to a rotation but doing nothing but 3 for 15k+ is no fun or fair to fight against in a team fight. > > > > > > There isn't a class in this game that can't do 15k damage in one second. Not a single class lacks that capability. NOT ONE. > > > > > > And thief has to give up literally everything to do it - the dp mobility, the evades, even the stealth (which I stand by my decision is useless but I digress), and general ability to win games against anyone who knows how to push the buttons on their keyboard. > > > > > > Why is thief doing 15k on a glass build, which is glassier than any other build, OP and all those other 15k attacks are fine? > > > > Those other classes dont do it by litterally pressing 1 button as fast as possible > > Id like to see some kind of rotaion to that build is all > > Why do you NEED that rotation and HOW will it be implemented? People like to toss out suggestions but never adequately explain why the suggestion necessary and never consider the ramifications of the alternatives. > > Thief can spam skills. That is a given and that was the intent of their design from the get go. They have an INI pool that allows the same skill usage several times in a row with the downside that this would shut down all other skills if INI expended outside the AA. That is not going to change unless the entire class redone and redoing the entire class just to make it more like the other classes will just result in another class that plays just like those other classes all for the sake of "skill rotation" . Virtually every other class has skill rotation inherent. I do not see why more of the same needed. > > Given they can spam skills (and no AMMO is not a solution here, it one of the worst sugestions I have heard as INI is already AMMO) in order to "force" them to use a skill other than unload for whatever reason a person might think required, those other skills have to allow better utility , damage , or defenses in a p/p build. The only way to really do that is through the AA , or 2 , 4 or 5. > > 4 and 5 have ALREADY been nerfed because they were seen as offering to much in other builds and in particular d/p. Boosting these to force p/p thief to use them more will boost d/p and s/p. AA getting more damage is what they attempted to do with d/x and s/x both leading to further nerfs. The flimsy nature of thief means they have to put out damage quickly and in spikes simply because they can not absorb as much damage as other classes. If the damage to shift to the AA then it has to be a significant boost to the same otherwise there little point to it. Added to that this would not change the usage of AA over Unload much at all. Unload thief that sticks to pistol already uses plenty of AA attacks because when they low on INI they have no other attacks. > > P/P thief is NOT OP and any making that suggestion has not been able to support it with the facts. It has way too many things in the way of counters and just as P/p thief focuses on the unload, classes fighting against the same need only focus on the unload which all manner of skills they have available can neutralize. So again , in lowering the damage potential of UNLOAD for the sake of "rotation of skills" boosts must be made to the other skills. When d/p or p/d get these boosts we will see the whining start anew. > > I have given out suggestions in earlier post in this thread..at the moment i am to busy to search threw this 6 page thread for my post to qoute to you at this moment...after work in a few hours ill link or copy it here.. Heres my suggestion since you think i didnt put one but i did3-4 pages back....i understand that no ones going to read all of this thread. alot of you guys and maybe gals have alloott to say about this topic which is a very good thing...i love it. Some time later...After work....Its a great starter or finisher, like if they had a mechanic that if thf chained two or 3 skills togeather and they successfully hit there 3rd or 4th attack will be incredibly strong. giving them a damage rotation instead of spamming backstab into heartskeaker 3x over. But as it is right now it just spammed and it lowers the quality of the fight in a bad way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"ilmi.5369" said: > Why do I believe that p/p is too strong? Well, I actually do not believe that. It is not too strong! It can even be a liability to your team, as it is very one dimensional. Still p/p can be succesfull in terms of killing enemies fast with little to no risk and can be used for map control, as well as any other thief build if played with DD trait line. Also Unload as a skill does too much damage and is too forgiving. While burst can be done by pretty much any other class, these classes USUALLY do this by facilitating a fair amount of their available skill set, involving some kind of rotations. Even other thief builds are not successfull by only spamming their hard hitter but by playing some kind of skill priorities. In fact, as of now, a melee thief has to do some heavy lifting, to be on par with other classes damage wise: he has not only the lowest life pool but also suffers big time by that power aoe meta. Also, the amount of invulns and blocks out there (passives have just been nerfed, but still...) makes it hard to always land the hard hitters making him one of the worst duel classes in this meta. So, his role basically is reduced to map control and +1, which he still does decently but overshadowed by mesmer power creep.. Well OK, We agree that P/P is not too strong, can be a liability to your team, but that it can kill enemies fast, especially if those enemies are bad. We also agree on basically everything else about thief as well. Pretty much everything about the actual thief itself we agree on as well as on mesmer. > > So, here is my answer to your question: thief as a melee class in terms of damage,is not only overshadowed by pretty much any other class in the game, but also by the p/p build. But Instead of giving some more damage to melee thief, p/p has received it (most likely beacause before no one played it). But they did it not in a thoughtful manner by overhauling the whole build (as they recently did with mesmer phantasms without anyone having asked for that) to make it a competitive package. They just buffed one skill too much, so that literally everyone can be successful with it to a certain degree (let's just assume until gold rank). You can **pretty much unnoticed** burst down people by using **only one skill**. There is no other ranged class that can do that **with such little effort** in that **short time frame**. I see FA ele as an exception but he has to do more work and has a bit more wind up time to be succesfull + comes with other risks. You could argue about power ranger but he has mainly rapid fire that come with comparable numbers and that skill is only available once every 10 seconds or so. Also holo is bursti but on no class it has ever drained my life pool as fast as a p/p thief. The point is that beside the easy and high damage of unload p/p is NOT that good, and as a thief player I'm not only left with melee builds that are not that strong anymore, but also with a range build that is not overpowered in the whole, but does situational the only thing it can can do **too well**. Especially against low health pool a.k.a other thieves but also against other classes. > > So long . Thanks if you read until here and sorry if this was not comprehensive enough. (If you're still here) So the first thing I do not agree with that we discussed before is the "pretty much unnoticed" part. Yes, the POTENTIAL to do that does exist. But a thief who attempts to do that is only killing themselves because they are either: A. Using initiative and to approach enemies while avoiding detection in the form of stealth from p5+sb2 combo (using up INI that he needs to actually USE an unload) and/or sb5 to move quickly B. By using blinding powder and/or shadowstep to achieve the same (or some combination of those) to do so. You'll notice a common pattern here: the user is giving up SIGNIFICANT, VERY IMPORTANT THINGS to approach anyone "unnoticed". Yes it's POSSIBLE, but there's a reason why, in that 10 minute video, a talented player never actually DID any of those things. Yes, he stealthed then unloaded. Yes, he ran around using sb5 and yes he did combo and use powder and shadowstep. But you'll notice he NEVER did that to "approach unnoticed", which is the point I am trying to make. ONLY a REALLY BAD PLAYER would do those things, because the tradeoffs are really NOT worth the benefit. You need the INI, and you need the DCD's to survive. Those times where he stealthed + unloaded were all extremely predictable, L2P losses on the part of his opponents for not reacting to obvious things. Second thing I want to point out is ranger's rapid fire - you said the skill is only available once every 10s or so, but that isn't true - IIRC there is a trait or something that allows using it twice, I've seen rangers spam it at least as much as unload on a thief would, and I see them doing it from further away on a class that also has stealth and a pet. And it does similar damage if used on a similarly built character. The key difference is thief P/P is easily shut down by avoiding at least one bullet on any unload whereas ranger does not have this obvious drawback inherent in their build. Also, you say ranger only having access to the ability every 10s is justifiable, but you don't mention that unload costs 5 INI and that thief recharges INI at a rate of 6 every 10s, essentially making unload a once-every-10s skill. Thief can unload exactly twice then are out of INI **unless the target ate every single shot**. I do agree that IF, for some ungodly reason, the thief is able to sink every bullet for every unload into enemies with no blocks or evades or reflects, then sure he is going to have a good day. But why the hell not? Doesn't every class have a pretty good day if they freecast and everything always connects? IDK man. I feel that P/P thief can POTENTIALLY be very powerful, but I do feel that against good players and good teams its a liability and on that point at least we can agree, so I don't know why you'd support a nerf to a build that isn't good against skilled enemies. Maybe if a change were to be made it would be to simply reduce effectiveness against bads and to increase effectiveness against skilled enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > @"ilmi.5369" said: > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > There's nothing confusing here, I gave you direct quotes from you yourself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > > > > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > > > > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > > > > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > > > > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > > > > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > > > > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > > > > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > > > > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The whole conversation has got to a point which is totally pointless and repetitive but I will bite a last time before I'm out of here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You actually don't prove anything of your claims - you are quoting me but you don't actually respond to what I say. Instead you are writing your own opinion again and again. But let's have a closer look if you find it satisfying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with: > > > > > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it > > > > > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet) > > > > > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack > > > > > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row > > > > > > > Yes that's among the things we agree on. furthermore I could list some more obvious things, such as that p/p thieves are less mobile than e.g. a d/p thief (assuming that he does not spec into daredevil which would give him the same amount of dodges and agility). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far: > > > > > > > No, this is not what we are not agreeing with. This is your list of things that, for some reason, you find important enough to discuss and I will comment on it a last time: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video) > > > > > > > What is that 10 min video supposed to support? You can hardly see it as evidence of how all P/P out there are playing. On the contrary, it shows a dude that frequently uses stealth as a battle tactic and kills a bunch of people that continuously are making wrong combat decisions. While doing this, he permanently is investing is initiative not only in unloads but on porting across the map on shortbow or even stealthing with smoke field and cluster bomb. I guess you bring it as an example of skillful p/p play but you fail to see that he permanently does things you initially called out as untypical or unskilled behavior. It seems as if you are too busy busy with calling me wrong on whatever you think I'm saying, that you are adapting your arguments along the way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Besides, this thief is able to burst down his enemies without actually HAVING to surprise them, which does not mean that any other p/p thief would not facilitate his access to stealth for an ambush attack. For either a shorter duration without sacrificing any burst potential or for a longer duration by investing some more initiative. Either way, a p/p thief is able to attack on surprise and would facilitate this advantage if he can. Just browse the many other troll videos of people camping spawn on deadeye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration) > > > > > > > Group stealth is beneficial for the whole team and individual stealth is beneficial for yourself and one of the core principals of thief in a defensive and offensive matter. Not dying to enemy burst because you are not focused shure also is in the interest of your team as it helps to fulfill your role as a thief. I guess we can agree on that? While it of course comes with side effects (e.g. capture point prevention, distraction from team) those play at best a very very little role on the priority list of a thief. We are talking about a class that obviously uses stealth in order to NOT be focused and in order to operate unseen. You just posted a video of a thief who permanently uses stealth in order to escape or to reposition. You could get the feeling that we are discussing the role of a warrior or ranger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build) > > > > > > > No, it is not difficult, but it is a valid counter measure. And it is even easier to come stealthed myself and open the fight in my favor. Or to bomb the area with nuclear aoe damage where you just seen him disappearing . Or to be on a class like my warrior, firing up one of my many stun breaks when being hit by the first unload and then get shield block up, hoping that he is stupid enough to keep on unloading. But all that does not negate that it's not always in your hands to interrupt or counter him if he is getting you on surprise. When he already drained a significant part of your life pool before you can even target him and then brings you down in less than 2 seconds with another unload while you are busy with actually tracking him. While he is still on range. ready to show you more of his love with little to no effort. I mean just the fact that he can kill himself quite easily by reflect shows that unload does outperform in terms of damage and its frequency. THIS is where we disagree. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to) > > > > > > > The video you just posted, shows exactly that. A thief who is moving around on the map, spending initiative on a lot of skill on his tool bar situational and still is able to unload when initiative is available. > > > > > > > Also, I don't see what the comparison to d/p is good for. Does a d/p thief need no initiative to first get into stealth (or to maintain stealth for previously mentioned extreme up time of 10s) in order to actually do a backstab? And then? He as swell has to maintain initiative costs and landing a high amount of burst does not only require preparation and is more difficult to apply, it is also not es repeatable in the same time frame as unload spam is. If you just want to say that as a package in the whole d/p is superior, I agree. But what does that matter? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong. > > > > > > > I explained myself for the greater good of an understanding but I'm happy to agree that we disagree and wont further pay attention to that discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heh, no man. You keep accusing me of misquoting you and I'm not. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rather I'm having a hard time keeping track of the long paragraphs and in trying to get a concise picture of why specifically you think unload needs to be changed, and I still haven't figured it out because you keep arguing about stuff that as far as I can tell either isn't true or doesn't matter, one or the other. And I'm still not seeing what your issue is with this build. > > > > > > > > > > > > So let's just start there then, the title of the thread is that pistol pistol thief is too strong. Tell me why you agree. > > > > > > > > > > 15k+ burst from litterally standing still and pressing litterally 1 button kills any opportunity of this game being fun and skillfull. > > > > > > > > > > Its a great starter or finisher to a rotation but doing nothing but 3 for 15k+ is no fun or fair to fight against in a team fight. > > > > > > > > There isn't a class in this game that can't do 15k damage in one second. Not a single class lacks that capability. NOT ONE. > > > > > > > > And thief has to give up literally everything to do it - the dp mobility, the evades, even the stealth (which I stand by my decision is useless but I digress), and general ability to win games against anyone who knows how to push the buttons on their keyboard. > > > > > > > > Why is thief doing 15k on a glass build, which is glassier than any other build, OP and all those other 15k attacks are fine? > > > > > > Those other classes dont do it by litterally pressing 1 button as fast as possible > > > Id like to see some kind of rotaion to that build is all > > > > Why do you NEED that rotation and HOW will it be implemented? People like to toss out suggestions but never adequately explain why the suggestion necessary and never consider the ramifications of the alternatives. > > > > Thief can spam skills. That is a given and that was the intent of their design from the get go. They have an INI pool that allows the same skill usage several times in a row with the downside that this would shut down all other skills if INI expended outside the AA. That is not going to change unless the entire class redone and redoing the entire class just to make it more like the other classes will just result in another class that plays just like those other classes all for the sake of "skill rotation" . Virtually every other class has skill rotation inherent. I do not see why more of the same needed. > > > > Given they can spam skills (and no AMMO is not a solution here, it one of the worst sugestions I have heard as INI is already AMMO) in order to "force" them to use a skill other than unload for whatever reason a person might think required, those other skills have to allow better utility , damage , or defenses in a p/p build. The only way to really do that is through the AA , or 2 , 4 or 5. > > > > 4 and 5 have ALREADY been nerfed because they were seen as offering to much in other builds and in particular d/p. Boosting these to force p/p thief to use them more will boost d/p and s/p. AA getting more damage is what they attempted to do with d/x and s/x both leading to further nerfs. The flimsy nature of thief means they have to put out damage quickly and in spikes simply because they can not absorb as much damage as other classes. If the damage to shift to the AA then it has to be a significant boost to the same otherwise there little point to it. Added to that this would not change the usage of AA over Unload much at all. Unload thief that sticks to pistol already uses plenty of AA attacks because when they low on INI they have no other attacks. > > > > P/P thief is NOT OP and any making that suggestion has not been able to support it with the facts. It has way too many things in the way of counters and just as P/p thief focuses on the unload, classes fighting against the same need only focus on the unload which all manner of skills they have available can neutralize. So again , in lowering the damage potential of UNLOAD for the sake of "rotation of skills" boosts must be made to the other skills. When d/p or p/d get these boosts we will see the whining start anew. > > > > > I have given out suggestions in earlier post in this thread..at the moment i am to busy to search threw this 6 page thread for my post to qoute to you at this moment...after work in a few hours ill link or copy it here.. > Heres my suggestion since you think i didnt put one but i did3-4 pages back....i understand that no ones going to read all of this thread. alot of you guys and maybe gals have alloott to say about this topic which is a very good thing...i love it. > > Some time later...After work....Its a great starter or finisher, like if they had a mechanic that if thf chained two or 3 skills togeather and they successfully hit there 3rd or 4th attack will be incredibly strong. giving them a damage rotation instead of spamming backstab into heartskeaker 3x over. But as it is right now it just spammed and it lowers the quality of the fight in a bad way > Yeah as I recall you wanted to double the INI used for UNLOAD meaning a single dodge all that needed to basically neutralize the build forcing the thief to rely on the AA for all other damage wich is next to NO damage. There was a reason p/p was not seen UNTIL there that INI refund and that because it was an INI hog and while unload hit for as much damage prior to that INI refund the fact it went through INI so fast made other builds much more cost effective . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 > @"Elxdark.9702" said: > this is a problem anet did for free, every kitten patch where they buffed pp they added damage damage and more damage when in reality what the weapon set needs is more variety and an accesible way to disengage but no they kept adding more damage and now you see the results a one shot gimmick build that is really bad however it works because the damage is so high and fast that not many people can react to it. > > And the worst of this is that you only need to press 1 button just look at unload, anet basically wanted thieves to spam that skill over and over again because they weren't able to bring something else to the weapon set other than damage. This gets down to there just not being enough one handed weapon varieties. P/P has to share off hand skills with d/p and s/p. In theory p/p is a fully ranged set YET the off hand skills offered do not necessarily favor ranged. It much easier to balance a two handed weapon across all skills simply because tweaking any individual skill in the set has NO effect on another weapon combo. With something loke p/p , when you boost off hand P you boost d/p. With off hand P there NO real damage. The AA P does not do damage. The #2 p does not do damage meaning if you want damage it all loaded into #3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > @"Elxdark.9702" said: > > this is a problem anet did for free, every kitten patch where they buffed pp they added damage damage and more damage when in reality what the weapon set needs is more variety and an accesible way to disengage but no they kept adding more damage and now you see the results a one shot gimmick build that is really bad however it works because the damage is so high and fast that not many people can react to it. > > > > And the worst of this is that you only need to press 1 button just look at unload, anet basically wanted thieves to spam that skill over and over again because they weren't able to bring something else to the weapon set other than damage. > > This gets down to there just not being enough one handed weapon varieties. P/P has to share off hand skills with d/p and s/p. In theory p/p is a fully ranged set YET the off hand skills offered do not necessarily favor ranged. It much easier to balance a two handed weapon across all skills simply because tweaking any individual skill in the set has NO effect on another weapon combo. > > With something loke p/p , when you boost off hand P you boost d/p. With off hand P there NO real damage. The AA P does not do damage. The #2 p does not do damage meaning if you want damage it all loaded into #3. Yes P/P has all the damage in 1 skill P/D is _______. I wish the dual wield off hands weapon skills were different depending on weapon combo set, that they complimented each set instead of recycling and loading everything into 3....3....3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said: > > > this is a problem anet did for free, every kitten patch where they buffed pp they added damage damage and more damage when in reality what the weapon set needs is more variety and an accesible way to disengage but no they kept adding more damage and now you see the results a one shot gimmick build that is really bad however it works because the damage is so high and fast that not many people can react to it. > > > > > > And the worst of this is that you only need to press 1 button just look at unload, anet basically wanted thieves to spam that skill over and over again because they weren't able to bring something else to the weapon set other than damage. > > > > This gets down to there just not being enough one handed weapon varieties. P/P has to share off hand skills with d/p and s/p. In theory p/p is a fully ranged set YET the off hand skills offered do not necessarily favor ranged. It much easier to balance a two handed weapon across all skills simply because tweaking any individual skill in the set has NO effect on another weapon combo. > > > > With something loke p/p , when you boost off hand P you boost d/p. With off hand P there NO real damage. The AA P does not do damage. The #2 p does not do damage meaning if you want damage it all loaded into #3. > > Yes > > P/P has all the damage in 1 skill > > P/D is _______. > > I wish the dual wield off hands weapon skills were different depending on weapon combo set, that they complimented each set instead of recycling and loading everything into 3....3....3 If they could change both 4 AND 5 making them dependent on the main hand weapon wherein 4 and 5 were also dual wield type skills , it woud be much easier to balance all sets. The reason this need not be done with the other professions is they have the traditional ICDs so while certain combo's work better with one another you can maintain some sort of check by adjusting ICD times if one specific skill deemed too much. With the INI build you do have the choice of increasing INI costs but the problem here is that doing so affects ALL other skills outside the AA and when a skill too costly it not used at all. I think that were 3, 4 and 5 all duel wield as #3 is a lot of these issues can be addressed. This can also address issues with d/d versus s/d wherein 4 and 5 on d/d can better help with that set without impacting s/d. If they do not go that route then there are always going to be builds where dependent on how weapons paired, one skill used more than any other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneakytails.5629 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 I have been putting a P/P Deadeye thief into my rotation of usual Warriors for something different. The average meta Core Warrior I come across is a huge counter to it for various reasons. There are other classes as well that are very heavy on projectile hate and invulnerability mechanics. It's a terrible 1v1 spec, it performs best +1ing fights. I dont really see a problem with that, I run Warrior builds like that in WvW. It will always feel bad no matter what spec comes in from the side and plus ones you into another walk back from spawn. It has crap mobility and very little staying power otherwise. One last thing: The reason why teefs have such a low hit-point pool is that their whole class is built around the stealth mechanic, stealth is the most powerful mechanic in the game. So that's the balancing factor. I think that's fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AegisFLCL.7623 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 I love how there's a 200+ comment argument about p/p thieves, while scourge and condi mirage/mes exist. When the opponent mesmer is of similar skill, or the same skill, there is actually no chance to win based on chaining invuls and condi spam. That's what a real balance problem looks like. Also *cough Sand Savant *cough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 >The reason why teefs have such a low hit-point pool is that their whole class is built around the stealth mechanic, stealth is the most powerful mechanic in the game. It in fac a combination of the burst and the stealth/dodges as mitigation that provides the thief its edge and specifically the ability to spam skills. I have no issues with the 8k advantage warrior has in HP. I do have issues when people ignore this when comparing damage output of a skill. The P/P build in fact has little in the way of stealth in any case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 I wonder what class could pp thief hurt the most. I wonder if OP was playing that class when they posted this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liewec.2896 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 i did have good fun a few nights ago when i managed to melt a p/p thief from 100% to dead in about 2 seconds, they're so incredibly squishy, to make it even funnier i was on a zerker axe/axe war XD headbutt hit em for 7,8k headbutt, followed by a 10.6k dualstrike which downed em, followed immediately by a 24k decapitate which instantly finished em. XD  in short, p/p is great damage sure, but they also crumble the moment you glance at them. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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