P/P is too powerful

[babazhook.6805]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > > > @"NuhDah.9812" said:

> > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> > > > > While anyone with some reflect, or retaliation can easily deal with a bad Unload spammer, the actual problem is that there's Unload spammers at all. Spamming Unload creates boring gameplay. It works too well, too often for little effort against less experienced players, and also makes less experinced palyers think it's a good an effective build, when it's just a boring gimmick.

> > > > >

> > > > > Balance should not be just about keeping skills from being to strong or too weak. It should also be about keeping gameplay fun and engaging.

> > > > >

> > > > > Because of that, changes like reducing the damage of Unload, or increasing its initiative cost would no do. Decrease damage, people just complains it's useless now. Increase the cost, people stop using the other skills and sticks even more with Unload, making the build even more boring for both the user and the enemies.

> > > > >

> > > > > The solution to this problem is skill ammo. What Unload needs is charges.

> > > > >

> > > > > With charges, it's possible to control how much a skill like Unload can be used consecutively. This keeps Unload as a viable burst skill, without letting it be spammable over and over. The initiative cost could even be reduced depending on how many charges the skill can accumulate, allowing more varied skill combinations of the weapon, without letting anyone sit on a single skill.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'd Start with 5 charges, 20s cooldown each charge. After that, if people keep falling into bad gameplay and sticking with Unload spam, it can be adjusted reducing the charges or increasing the charge cooldown.

> > > > >

> > > > > And this does not apply only to Unload, but to other thief weapon skills that people tend to use over and over, creating boring gameplay.

> > > >

> > > > You do not take into consideration there is more than one way to mitigate unload dmg besides reflects. There are all sort of projectile hate walls, blocks, invulnerability, kiting out of range, stealth and, most importantly, interrupts in the game (yeap thief has virtually no way to access stability so interrupts are a thing). I'm confused why is unload such a big deal when there are other skills that do probably even more burst than this from further away and with less vulnerabilities and counter play.

> > >

> > > And you totally missed the point. I start saying there's counters. Add more counters to the list, doesn't matter. The problem is still there, and it's a core problem with thief weapons. The balance problem here isn't skill power. It's skill use.

> > >

> > > The way the skill works encourages people to use it in a way that is just bad for gameplay, bad for the user, and bad for their enemies. There's people who spend entire matches holding freaking 3 and hoping that'll work, and the worst part is that it does work, and way more often than it should.

> > >

> > > Because thief weapons are meant to have no cooldowns and to be used seamlessly one after another, they couldn't be properly balanced until skill ammo was introduced.

> > > You can't give them recharges without breaking the pace of the profession. You can't increase the costs or the thief will not be able to use many skills at all as they'll spend too much initiative. You can't decrease the damage to much or they will feel ineffective. And of course you can't leave it as it is, or we'll keep getting newbies stuck with the 3 at both ends of the gun, and people will keep coming to the forums to complain, only to be dismissed with the extremely silly and utterly pointless "L2P" messages.

> > > People complaining about a thief weapon skill every so often is a sign there's something wrong with them. The hard part is figuring out that that is. Because people saying "It does too much damage" doesn't mean it does, and people dismissing them with a mere "not it doesn't" won't help anyone either, as both sides basically waste time repeating the same thing over and over.

> > >

> > > Now, thanks to skill ammo, Unload can stay as an skill that can be used several times in a row, without having some people just using that one skill over and over, which is bad for everyone.

> > >

> > > Yes, giving skill ammo to skills like Unload or Death Blossom that tend to give newbies more trouble than they deserve and encourage boring behaviors when overspammed would dumb them down bit by forcing people not to use them in some of the dumb ways they can be used, but it won't be too much as long as each gets enough charges to still be used in the right ways.

> > > Sometimes you just have to save people from their own mistakes. Why do you think Soldiers in TF2 get reduce damage from their own rockets while they are in the air? People were dumb and they were killing themselves when attempting rocket jumps! So the rocket had to be dumbed down like that, as other alternatives like giving them more HP were no good.

> > >

> > > But something will have to be done eventually, and as I see it, skill ammo will be the only thing that will work in this particular case. People will complain a bit, they'll get used to it, and there will still be the occasional complain about some spammed thief weapon skill by someone who was harassed by some one trick pony thief a few matches, but they'll be less common and less frequent.

> >

> > Ammo is a bad idea all round. INI is Ammo and there no need to put in a double whammy.

> >

> > The skill Unload is used over and over because NO OTHER SKILL in the set is useful to an at range power build OUTSIDE Headshot which sees marginal use when daredevil dropped. End of story. BP is of little use because p/p rarely at melee and the stealth aspect of using a leap in smoke field does not happen in p/p power as it does in d/p.

> >

> > 2 and the AA lean towards condition builds.

> >

> > ALL of thes skills indvidually work with other builds and work very well. They just do not work as well with p/p power.

> >

>

> Initiative is a shared resource that allows the thief to be more bursty. But on its own it's not enough. It prevents the thief from using too many skills, but on its own, initiative doesn't prevent players from sitting too much on a single skill.

>

> There's people who keep saying that revenant weapon skills need to lose either the energy cost or their recharges, and they are utterly wrong. Some weapon skills could use a bit less recharge or less cost, and overall revenant could use a skilled way to recover small amounts of energy as they fight if they are playing skillfully. Something not quite as strong as Charged Mists, like gaining part of the energy cost back when interrupting an enemy with a CC weapon skill. But in no way they should lose either. Remove the recharges, people start doing things like spamming Unrelenting Assault over and over. Remove the costs, and the recharges would have to be increased to compensate, making it feel more sluggish.

>

> Going back to thief, we can't have their weapons work like revenant weapons, with both recharge and resource cost. They have medium armor and a small hp pool, so they need to move in, do things fast, and move out. So recharges won't do. But skill ammo is a completely different thing. It allows moving in, doing things fast, and moving out, but it prevents what needs to be prevented: doing it again too soon, sometimes even ignoring the "move out" part. There's tons of things a thief will still be able to do while waiting for Unload charges to come back, go decap a point, snare someone with immobilize, interrupt with headshot, rush in and blind people, swap to the other weapon set, /point @ and /laugh at enemies... Anything other than repeating the same move again.

>

> And of course Unload is used over and over because the other skills are not as useful. There will be always overlap and skills that have less priority than others except on certain situations. That is also seen on all the other professions, and will never change.

>

> It all still falls down to "People stick to 1 skill because they can". While you may think that making the other skills better will make people use them more over unload, that will never be the case, because there needs to be situational skills that are used less. Of course it'd be better if the pace of the game allowed skills like headshot felt less like a waste of initiative because an interrupted skill can be used again in a few seconds, and because a ranged interrupt isn't as reliable as melee one that won't be affected by projectile hate. But nothing will change that people will stick to what feels that's giving more results, even if it actually dosen't.

>

> The best way to prevent people from doing something that is considered detrimental in a game is making it impossible. Nodes are shared, we can't steal nodes, no node ninjas. Exps and drops are given individually to each player, we can't steal kills, no kill steals. WvW chat between teams is not possible except with whispers, no map chat bickering between teams. Give unload n charges, they can't use it n+1 times in a row.

>

> Also, there's many things that could be tweaked with the skill ammo system. It's not like it has to be right as it is now. Firebrand mantras are an example of a tweaked skill ammo behavior, with the last charge flipping the skill to a stronger version.

>

> A version of skill ammo that would work well with Unload is making it recover all charges at the same time, whether they are used or not. Unload works best when you create a situation where you can use it several times in a row, so having the charges come back one by one would not work as well with it.

> But if all charges come at the same time, that would still prevent excessive spam when it's accompanied with lots of initiative recovery, while not affecting it at all in any other case.

 

Sitting on one skill has nothing to do with better gameplay. The concept of AMMO is a fix for a situation that does not exist and is not a problem. It akin to saying "we have to stop people from crossing using the crosswalk at 12th and main and get more to cross at 1st and main so lets make the pedestrian crossing light at 12th and main last only 5 seconds. " No reasons are given as to WHY crossing at 12th and main other then "there should be more variety as to where they would cross" and the fact that the people live in a residential area at 14th and main, and the store they all go to is at 12th and main is ignored.

 

AMMO just breaks the weaponset, which already sees marginal use for no reason other than to fulfill some abstract notion of what "skilled gameplay is" held by some small few that it involves pressing more buttons. There NOTHING WRONG with spamming a skill. It is an ability for which the thief was designed. If you do not like spamming a skill you can play a different class or use a weaponset where spamming the same skill is not as prevalent. There nothing wrong with choices. Don't play p/p if you do not like it and as long as a skill is not OP, as we have established with P/P in spite of the title of this topics thread title it does not need a fix because of one small groups subjective opinion of what is good for the game.

 

AMMO is just a straightjacket forcing a player into using skills that are of little benefit at a given time. When unable to use unload due to ammo it is saying "well use skill 2" when it of little use to p/p power or use skill 5 when it of little use to p/p ranged or run around in circles and do nothing because the collective "we" of some small group of players do not like the fact you decided the best skill to use three times in a row in a p/p power set is unload.

 

The underlying theme here is not p/p and unload. It is rather a problem people have with the INI system in general , that being the system allows multiple uses of the same skill in short order. There have been complaints about virtually every thief skill from vault to shadowshot, from unload to headshot JUST because of that reason We should not pretend this about "skill" or a skill being claimed as "op' because it can be used in short order. It the same premise behind "stealth spam" and "dodge spam" and that is all do do with the very opposite of what people claim they want as they pursue "more skilled gameplay". They want to lock the ability of the thief to use a skill several times in a row simply because it will make it EASIER for them to deal with the thief. THAT ability is the greatest edge the thief has. It has the downside that in spamming a skill the INI pool exhausted and other skills locked out and this in fact balances that ability. It is why the majority of those that play thief ared drawn to that class.

 

The skill is fine. Once more single hand weapons introduced wherein some combinations can be more clearly power or condition based and some combinations can offer other utility you will see less p/p. That said p/p will always be restricted by the fact it purely a ranged set meaning any off hand weapon that does not offer ranged utility will see less play.

 

 

 

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times.

>

> only __if they run bound daredevil__

> But at that point they are significantly nerfing their damage because they cannot slot deadeye.

> Agreed on the rest though. If you know you don't have high mobility and you refuse to bring projectile hate and spec as glassy as possible, P/P is your counter. It's also your counter if you feel you should be able to 1v2 for extended periods of time.

>

>

 

Precisely. P/P in acting as that counter forces people into taking skills they would rather not take and THAT is why so many complain. There a reason I have multiple builds of the same class in WvW and that because certain builds are designed to counter another. I find this as rewarding in that it encourages variety in builds and allows me to tweak and tinker with a given build. I understand full well if I pull in my p/p build , it too can be easily countered. I see nothing wrong with that. Neutering a build just because it can counter some small number of builds is bad for gameplay overall .

[babazhook.6805]

>Ok, here I agree. P/P thieves are not game breaking.

 

>But the reason that people complaining about p/p were "to stubborn to adapt" is your assumption and cannot be stated as a fact and as excuse for the current state. You always have to press your buttons to survive - that's neither new, nor does it apply to thief encounter only. it's just that nowadays game play is so ridiculous fast and you can die so quickly. You always require condi remove, stun break, invulns, block or reflect on your tool bar and if you don't bring them all you do not just have a little disadvantages, you are pretty close to insta death. This does not need any more encouragement by having a build that does that fast more damage than any other.

 

P/P thieves are NOT game breaking.

 

You second paragraph acknowledges that in order to counter said thief and minimize his or her impact in a given fight, you need to take certain skills. Why is that a problem? We have these tools available to us for a reason. What you are in fact are encouraging is LESS diverse gameplay. Implicit in your suggestion is you want the means to deal with something like p/p range and unload to be neutralizing that build via something like AMMO so YOU are not forced to take a reflect or block or more toughness etc,

 

 

[pah.4931]

I think the problem is more range than anything else. Just by design, the hardest hitting abilities should be melee. And then, the second offense is that it's just one-button spam.

 

While I've been +1 by an unload pp thief more than enough times, they aren't that great. In the hands of a good thief, they are tough as balls... but they'd still be better as s/d in conquest (in the hands of a good thief).

 

I guess the good news is that with all these "PP Teeves OP" threads out there then a lot more scrubs will pick up the spec and get eaten alive ;)

[Legatus.3608]

> @"ilmi.5369" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

>

> > It's not an assumption though, it is an actual fact. The game has counter play and people are choosing not to use it and instead whinge on the pvp forum.

> >

> > I also don't know why you think its faster than other builds, lots of builds can damage quickly with zerker and can one shot. Pretty much any class can do it. And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times.

>

> Well, yes, people need to learn and to adapt in order to be successful. So should p/p thieves learn to live without the high bust of unload or its initiative refund. Also there is a grey area between people not being willed or able to adapt and some skills doing too much for to little effort. Stating an opinion as a fact doesn't support your point.

>

> Of course a P/P DD has the same access to stealth as any other thief wearing a pistol OH. Smoke field > SB cluster bomb > profit. If you have blinding powder slotted this gives up to 10s of stealth which gives plenty of time to cross half of the map and be battle ready after 5 seconds. And DE is even worse while being able to camp the home node in perma stealth just waiting for you to leave the mid fight and come run for a quick decap. Are you actually saying that you watch the mini map at all times (that does not show enemies if not tracked by a team mate) and while you are in a battle situation or approaching an empty capture point, you would never be caught in surprise by a thief? That you always have saved all stun breaks, blocks or whatever to be able to react accordingly? I have seen this argument pretty frequently in this forum. That's pretty far from reality at best...

 

You aren't crossing half of anything in 10s if you used all your INI on cluster bomb and have nothing left for sb5, and furthermore you'd need to have some INI left to actually USE some unloads after those 10s, which you either used on a single sb5 near the end of the 10s stealth OR you didn't sb5 at all and you have enough INI for A SINGLE unload, which is not enough damage to kill anyone but another thief even if they are standing in mid afk.

 

So in practice this doesn't really ever happen, P/P thieves typically walk around and save their INI for unloads. They might use a single SB5 when leaving the dead box since you can recharge 5 by the time you walk to mid, probably. I really don't see that much stealthing from P/P theives, and the ones who do use it are very easy to kill since they can't move around quickly after stealthing (you just aoe where he stealthed).

 

For reference, INI naturally recharges at a rate of 6 every 10 seconds.

 

Also, for the people who keep saying they want unload to have AMMO, INI is functionally equivalent ALREADY to having ammo. There is no difference between the two.

 

> @"ilmi.5369" said:

> > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > The underlying issue is not that p/p unload overtuned.

> You keep on saying that. And I say it is. 10-15K burst out of the box that fast is clearly too much - even for a class that is designed to apply damage as fast as possible. It does not need preparation, it does not need stealth, it does not need blasting fire fields and it does not need any other combination. It just comes like that. Yes, the other skills are not beneficial for p/p power thief. Well, if you could not perma spam this sure shot because e.g. initiative would not be reimburse, you would have to adapt and use the weaker skills. Or give him a compensation in whatever form - I'm sure that we could figure out a proper compensation if we were not busy in justifying the need for that damage of unload.

15k burst out of the box is something that just about every class in the game can do with dps setups. Unload hits 8x Damage: 147 (0.4)?, gravedigger hits 1x Damage: 1,210 (3.0)?, as a random example. Plenty of things in this game hit harder than unload.

[ilmi.5369]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> >Ok, here I agree. P/P thieves are not game breaking.

>

> >But the reason that people complaining about p/p were "to stubborn to adapt" is your assumption and cannot be stated as a fact and as excuse for the current state. You always have to press your buttons to survive - that's neither new, nor does it apply to thief encounter only. it's just that nowadays game play is so ridiculous fast and you can die so quickly. You always require condi remove, stun break, invulns, block or reflect on your tool bar and if you don't bring them all you do not just have a little disadvantages, you are pretty close to insta death. This does not need any more encouragement by having a build that does that fast more damage than any other.

>

> P/P thieves are NOT game breaking.

>

> You second paragraph acknowledges that in order to counter said thief and minimize his or her impact in a given fight, you need to take certain skills. Why is that a problem? We have these tools available to us for a reason. What you are in fact are encouraging is LESS diverse gameplay. Implicit in your suggestion is you want the means to deal with something like p/p range and unload to be neutralizing that build via something like AMMO so YOU are not forced to take a reflect or block or more toughness etc,

 

EDIT: because it sounded harsher than supposed to. Well, you could have just asked but it seems you prefer to make implications of my intentions. In your eyes, I seem to belong to the group of people that are against diversity. With no means I said anything about Ammo or that I don't take defensive utilities. As a matter of fact in this burst meta I feel that they are the only logical choice because otherwise you will die so faster - and this is in a lot of encounters not only against thief as you misread.

 

But I find it quite indicative that you classify others as enemies of diversity while at the same time considering the choice of 3 defensive utilities (out of more than 16 available skills) as the only logical choice. That's a strange idea of build diversity that you have there. I am curious if you play p/p thief and are actually interested to keep unload as strong as it is.

[ilmi.5369]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > @"ilmi.5369" said:

> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> >

> > > It's not an assumption though, it is an actual fact. The game has counter play and people are choosing not to use it and instead whinge on the pvp forum.

> > >

> > > I also don't know why you think its faster than other builds, lots of builds can damage quickly with zerker and can one shot. Pretty much any class can do it. And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times.

> >

> > Well, yes, people need to learn and to adapt in order to be successful. So should p/p thieves learn to live without the high bust of unload or its initiative refund. Also there is a grey area between people not being willed or able to adapt and some skills doing too much for to little effort. Stating an opinion as a fact doesn't support your point.

> >

> > Of course a P/P DD has the same access to stealth as any other thief wearing a pistol OH. Smoke field > SB cluster bomb > profit. If you have blinding powder slotted this gives up to 10s of stealth which gives plenty of time to cross half of the map and be battle ready after 5 seconds. And DE is even worse while being able to camp the home node in perma stealth just waiting for you to leave the mid fight and come run for a quick decap. Are you actually saying that you watch the mini map at all times (that does not show enemies if not tracked by a team mate) and while you are in a battle situation or approaching an empty capture point, you would never be caught in surprise by a thief? That you always have saved all stun breaks, blocks or whatever to be able to react accordingly? I have seen this argument pretty frequently in this forum. That's pretty far from reality at best...

>

> You aren't crossing half of anything in 10s if you used all your INI on cluster bomb and have nothing left for sb5, and furthermore you'd need to have some INI left to actually USE some unloads after those 10s, which you either used on a single sb5 near the end of the 10s stealth OR you didn't sb5 at all and you have enough INI for A SINGLE unload, which is not enough damage to kill anyone but another thief even if they are standing in mid afk.

>

> So in practice this doesn't really ever happen, P/P thieves typically walk around and save their INI for unloads. They might use a single SB5 when leaving the dead box since you can recharge 5 by the time you walk to mid, probably. I really don't see that much stealthing from P/P theives, and the ones who do use it are very easy to kill since they can't move around quickly after stealthing (you just aoe where he stealthed).

>

> For reference, INI naturally recharges at a rate of 6 every 10 seconds.

>

> Also, for the people who keep saying they want unload to have AMMO, INI is functionally equivalent ALREADY to having ammo. There is no difference between the two.

 

Using up all your initiative for stealth is generally not very beneficial for ANY thief as it leaves you behind without options. This is an extreme example in the argument that a p/p thief cannot approach without being noticed and without being ready for the encounter. Cluster Bomb does not cost more than heart seeker which is typically used for stealth by d/p. Even in this extreme example after having wasted all your initiative you come out of stealth with 6 initiative which is sufficient for a strong opener.

 

Or do you generally disagree that a d/p thief can catch you on surprise? Are you claiming that you can see every thief coming on the mini map no mater what situation you are in? Because this was my point in the comment you just quoted: P/P does not stand behind any other thief build in terms of stealth and of course can shoot you down approaching you unseen. BTW, by using shadow step you can ALMOST port from clock tower to a side node without any costs. I wonder how this is not crossing half of the map with out any downside in terms of burst potential. Yes, it is nicer to run around with a full initiative bar and play pew pew but that does not mean you have to.

 

 

[pah.4931]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > @"ilmi.5369" said:

> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> >

> > > It's not an assumption though, it is an actual fact. The game has counter play and people are choosing not to use it and instead whinge on the pvp forum.

> > >

> > > I also don't know why you think its faster than other builds, lots of builds can damage quickly with zerker and can one shot. Pretty much any class can do it. And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times.

> >

> > Well, yes, people need to learn and to adapt in order to be successful. So should p/p thieves learn to live without the high bust of unload or its initiative refund. Also there is a grey area between people not being willed or able to adapt and some skills doing too much for to little effort. Stating an opinion as a fact doesn't support your point.

> >

> > Of course a P/P DD has the same access to stealth as any other thief wearing a pistol OH. Smoke field > SB cluster bomb > profit. If you have blinding powder slotted this gives up to 10s of stealth which gives plenty of time to cross half of the map and be battle ready after 5 seconds. And DE is even worse while being able to camp the home node in perma stealth just waiting for you to leave the mid fight and come run for a quick decap. Are you actually saying that you watch the mini map at all times (that does not show enemies if not tracked by a team mate) and while you are in a battle situation or approaching an empty capture point, you would never be caught in surprise by a thief? That you always have saved all stun breaks, blocks or whatever to be able to react accordingly? I have seen this argument pretty frequently in this forum. That's pretty far from reality at best...

>

> You aren't crossing half of anything in 10s if you used all your INI on cluster bomb and have nothing left for sb5, and furthermore you'd need to have some INI left to actually USE some unloads after those 10s, which you either used on a single sb5 near the end of the 10s stealth OR you didn't sb5 at all and you have enough INI for A SINGLE unload, which is not enough damage to kill anyone but another thief even if they are standing in mid afk.

>

> So in practice this doesn't really ever happen, P/P thieves typically walk around and save their INI for unloads. They might use a single SB5 when leaving the dead box since you can recharge 5 by the time you walk to mid, probably. I really don't see that much stealthing from P/P theives, and the ones who do use it are very easy to kill since they can't move around quickly after stealthing (you just aoe where he stealthed).

>

> For reference, INI naturally recharges at a rate of 6 every 10 seconds.

>

> Also, for the people who keep saying they want unload to have AMMO, INI is functionally equivalent ALREADY to having ammo. There is no difference between the two.

>

> > @"ilmi.5369" said:

> > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > The underlying issue is not that p/p unload overtuned.

> > You keep on saying that. And I say it is. 10-15K burst out of the box that fast is clearly too much - even for a class that is designed to apply damage as fast as possible. It does not need preparation, it does not need stealth, it does not need blasting fire fields and it does not need any other combination. It just comes like that. Yes, the other skills are not beneficial for p/p power thief. Well, if you could not perma spam this sure shot because e.g. initiative would not be reimburse, you would have to adapt and use the weaker skills. Or give him a compensation in whatever form - I'm sure that we could figure out a proper compensation if we were not busy in justifying the need for that damage of unload.

> 15k burst out of the box is something that just about every class in the game can do with dps setups. Unload hits 8x Damage: 147 (0.4)?, gravedigger hits 1x Damage: 1,210 (3.0)?, as a random example. Plenty of things in this game hit harder than unload.

 

Can't really compare unload to gravedigger though... while, sure, GD cleaves and does a lot of damage it's got a huge windup and a short range and a long CD. Unload is, sure, single target, but hits from range and can be spammed. Couple that with stealth and tons of mobility / escape... it can be problematic. Getting +1'd by a PP thief while engaged in a fun 1v1 and dying to unload out of stealth is not anything close to the same as getting hit by a Gravedigger hit.

 

Again, I don't really hate PP all that much. They are easy to kill if you're team is smart. But you have to look at abilities as parts of the whole system, not by themselves.

[Legatus.3608]

> @"ilmi.5369" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > @"ilmi.5369" said:

> > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > >

> > > > It's not an assumption though, it is an actual fact. The game has counter play and people are choosing not to use it and instead whinge on the pvp forum.

> > > >

> > > > I also don't know why you think its faster than other builds, lots of builds can damage quickly with zerker and can one shot. Pretty much any class can do it. And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times.

> > >

> > > Well, yes, people need to learn and to adapt in order to be successful. So should p/p thieves learn to live without the high bust of unload or its initiative refund. Also there is a grey area between people not being willed or able to adapt and some skills doing too much for to little effort. Stating an opinion as a fact doesn't support your point.

> > >

> > > Of course a P/P DD has the same access to stealth as any other thief wearing a pistol OH. Smoke field > SB cluster bomb > profit. If you have blinding powder slotted this gives up to 10s of stealth which gives plenty of time to cross half of the map and be battle ready after 5 seconds. And DE is even worse while being able to camp the home node in perma stealth just waiting for you to leave the mid fight and come run for a quick decap. Are you actually saying that you watch the mini map at all times (that does not show enemies if not tracked by a team mate) and while you are in a battle situation or approaching an empty capture point, you would never be caught in surprise by a thief? That you always have saved all stun breaks, blocks or whatever to be able to react accordingly? I have seen this argument pretty frequently in this forum. That's pretty far from reality at best...

> >

> > You aren't crossing half of anything in 10s if you used all your INI on cluster bomb and have nothing left for sb5, and furthermore you'd need to have some INI left to actually USE some unloads after those 10s, which you either used on a single sb5 near the end of the 10s stealth OR you didn't sb5 at all and you have enough INI for A SINGLE unload, which is not enough damage to kill anyone but another thief even if they are standing in mid afk.

> >

> > So in practice this doesn't really ever happen, P/P thieves typically walk around and save their INI for unloads. They might use a single SB5 when leaving the dead box since you can recharge 5 by the time you walk to mid, probably. I really don't see that much stealthing from P/P theives, and the ones who do use it are very easy to kill since they can't move around quickly after stealthing (you just aoe where he stealthed).

> >

> > For reference, INI naturally recharges at a rate of 6 every 10 seconds.

> >

> > Also, for the people who keep saying they want unload to have AMMO, INI is functionally equivalent ALREADY to having ammo. There is no difference between the two.

>

> Using up all your initiative for stealth is generally not very beneficial for ANY thief as it leaves you behind without options. This is an extreme example in the argument that a p/p thief cannot approach without being noticed and without being ready for the encounter. Cluster Bomb does not cost more than heart seeker which is typically used for stealth by d/p. Even in this extreme example after having wasted all your initiative you come out of stealth with 6 initiative which is sufficient for a strong opener.

>

> Or do you generally disagree that a d/p thief can catch you on surprise? Are you claiming that you can see every thief coming on the mini map no mater what situation you are in? Because this was my point in the comment you just quoted: P/P does not stand behind any other thief build in terms of stealth and of course can shoot you down approaching you unseen. BTW, by using shadow step you can ALMOST port from clock tower to a side node without any costs. I wonder how this is not crossing half of the map with out any downside in terms of burst potential. Yes, it is nicer to run around with a full initiative bar and play pew pew but that does not mean you have to.

>

>

 

Dp thief needs stealth for backstab and backstab does not require ini, pp thief would not waste ini for stealth when it provides literally nothing of benefit to him. That is the point. With 12 ini you can unload twice, with 6 only once. One unload doesn't kill anyone and the argument about +1 isn't valid, there are 5 players on each team and pp thief lacks the ability to move around like dp without nerfing his own damage.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"pah.4931" said:

>Couple that with stealth and tons of mobility / escape...

 

Just pointing out that p/p is the least mobile set in thief's kit and that if a thief spams unload his port options are relegated to shadowstep and whatever stealth utility he has on his bar.

 

Which is not -tons-.

 

[Legatus.3608]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > @"ilmi.5369" said:

> > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > >

> > > > It's not an assumption though, it is an actual fact. The game has counter play and people are choosing not to use it and instead whinge on the pvp forum.

> > > >

> > > > I also don't know why you think its faster than other builds, lots of builds can damage quickly with zerker and can one shot. Pretty much any class can do it. And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times.

> > >

> > > Well, yes, people need to learn and to adapt in order to be successful. So should p/p thieves learn to live without the high bust of unload or its initiative refund. Also there is a grey area between people not being willed or able to adapt and some skills doing too much for to little effort. Stating an opinion as a fact doesn't support your point.

> > >

> > > Of course a P/P DD has the same access to stealth as any other thief wearing a pistol OH. Smoke field > SB cluster bomb > profit. If you have blinding powder slotted this gives up to 10s of stealth which gives plenty of time to cross half of the map and be battle ready after 5 seconds. And DE is even worse while being able to camp the home node in perma stealth just waiting for you to leave the mid fight and come run for a quick decap. Are you actually saying that you watch the mini map at all times (that does not show enemies if not tracked by a team mate) and while you are in a battle situation or approaching an empty capture point, you would never be caught in surprise by a thief? That you always have saved all stun breaks, blocks or whatever to be able to react accordingly? I have seen this argument pretty frequently in this forum. That's pretty far from reality at best...

> >

> > You aren't crossing half of anything in 10s if you used all your INI on cluster bomb and have nothing left for sb5, and furthermore you'd need to have some INI left to actually USE some unloads after those 10s, which you either used on a single sb5 near the end of the 10s stealth OR you didn't sb5 at all and you have enough INI for A SINGLE unload, which is not enough damage to kill anyone but another thief even if they are standing in mid afk.

> >

> > So in practice this doesn't really ever happen, P/P thieves typically walk around and save their INI for unloads. They might use a single SB5 when leaving the dead box since you can recharge 5 by the time you walk to mid, probably. I really don't see that much stealthing from P/P theives, and the ones who do use it are very easy to kill since they can't move around quickly after stealthing (you just aoe where he stealthed).

> >

> > For reference, INI naturally recharges at a rate of 6 every 10 seconds.

> >

> > Also, for the people who keep saying they want unload to have AMMO, INI is functionally equivalent ALREADY to having ammo. There is no difference between the two.

> >

> > > @"ilmi.5369" said:

> > > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > > The underlying issue is not that p/p unload overtuned.

> > > You keep on saying that. And I say it is. 10-15K burst out of the box that fast is clearly too much - even for a class that is designed to apply damage as fast as possible. It does not need preparation, it does not need stealth, it does not need blasting fire fields and it does not need any other combination. It just comes like that. Yes, the other skills are not beneficial for p/p power thief. Well, if you could not perma spam this sure shot because e.g. initiative would not be reimburse, you would have to adapt and use the weaker skills. Or give him a compensation in whatever form - I'm sure that we could figure out a proper compensation if we were not busy in justifying the need for that damage of unload.

> > 15k burst out of the box is something that just about every class in the game can do with dps setups. Unload hits 8x Damage: 147 (0.4)?, gravedigger hits 1x Damage: 1,210 (3.0)?, as a random example. Plenty of things in this game hit harder than unload.

>

> Can't really compare unload to gravedigger though... while, sure, GD cleaves and does a lot of damage it's got a huge windup and a short range and a long CD. Unload is, sure, single target, but hits from range and can be spammed. Couple that with stealth and tons of mobility / escape... it can be problematic. Getting +1'd by a PP thief while engaged in a fun 1v1 and dying to unload out of stealth is not anything close to the same as getting hit by a Gravedigger hit.

>

> Again, I don't really hate PP all that much. They are easy to kill if you're team is smart. But you have to look at abilities as parts of the whole system, not by themselves.

 

I agree unload is better than gravedigger on the whole, I was just making a point about the damage and its requirements.

 

I did not agree that pp thief is problematic though, the only people its problematic for are the teams that get stuck with one on their team assuming people know how to push the buttons on their keyboards.

[pah.4931]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"pah.4931" said:

> >Couple that with stealth and tons of mobility / escape...

>

> Just pointing out that p/p is the least mobile set in thief's kit and that if a thief spams unload his port options are relegated to shadowstep and whatever stealth utility he has on his bar.

>

> Which is not -tons-.

>

 

It's true. I generally like to see a pp thief on the opposing team.

 

I think people's problem with them are they are the "win more" profession. When you're having a tough match and you get blown up by a PP thief it just feels bad. But chances are, that other team would have beat you if it was a s/d thief or a warrior or a revenant ;)

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"pah.4931" said:

> > >Couple that with stealth and tons of mobility / escape...

> >

> > Just pointing out that p/p is the least mobile set in thief's kit and that if a thief spams unload his port options are relegated to shadowstep and whatever stealth utility he has on his bar.

> >

> > Which is not -tons-.

> >

>

> It's true. I generally like to see a pp thief on the opposing team.

>

> I think people's problem with them are they are the "win more" profession. When you're having a tough match and you get blown up by a PP thief it just feels bad. But chances are, that other team would have beat you if it was a s/d thief or a warrior or a revenant ;)

 

Agreed, and I understand that. But this _is_ a thief we are talking about. By nature losses to them that feel insulting, or rigged is a thematic high score for the developers of the class, as long as they aren't imbalanced in doing so.

I just want to make sure people don't see "thematically insulting play" as "unbalanced play", and use that as a foothold to kick the thief out of viability, d'assall~

[ilmi.5369]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

 

> Dp thief needs stealth for backstab and backstab does not require ini, pp thief would not waste ini for stealth when it provides literally nothing of benefit to him. That is the point. With 12 ini you can unload twice, with 6 only once. One unload doesn't kill anyone and the argument about +1 isn't valid, there are 5 players on each team and pp thief lacks the ability to move around like dp without nerfing his own damage.

 

Yes to d/p requiring stealth for full potential but no to p/p not benefitting from stealth, at all. Stealth generally is a very strong advantage in any fight as you can attack without any reading. Just think of team stealth with thief, mesmer or engineer. The enemy sees you coming and and disappearing and knows exactly that you will strike in a few seconds. And still they are pretty open vulnerable,as you can read them easier as they can read you.

At first you said p/p cannot move unseen in a pvp arena, then you said they cannot stealth and now you are saying they can but never would because it's not efficient. While I never said it would be, I get the feeling that you just don't want to admit that this possibility exists and occurs. Probably, they do not waste their full initiative for stealth, and maybe they just used shadow step and blinding powder for a nice opener - I won't argue about the most efficient way to play p/p. But as a matter of fact they can attack from stealth and still have sufficient ini to unload 2-3 times on various players I have seen in battle (including myself). Even if one unload does not kill you it can leave you with little health forcing you to retreat or to go down in the next attack wave. Some players have reflects ready and can easyly fight back or are tanky enough (hello warrior), to deal with that bad suprise, while others go down wondering what they just hit.

 

Hell, every class can attack you in an unexpected moment, let it be a team fight or just a bad camera angle while interacting with a buff at foe fire. You would be the first person never being caught off guard by a p/p thief.

 

 

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> Tank builds are generally supposed to be able to handle 1v2s (if not necessarily win them)

 

And glass cannons are supposed to be able to counter tanks/bunkers. What good is a glass cannon if it can't kill anything but another glass cannon?

 

The Thief is the one profession that is supposed to fill that glass cannon role, yet it does a poor job at it with all of the defenses in the game. It is still relegated to a +1 role, which is absurd.

 

It's the equivalent to having a very lethal dose of venom in a syringe with a flimsy, dull needle. Sure the Thief can kill you with it, but it has to have someone else there to hold you down so it can successfully inject you.

 

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

>There's tons of things a thief will still be able to do while waiting for Unload charges to come back, go decap a point, snare someone with immobilize, interrupt with headshot, rush in and blind people, swap to the other weapon set, /point @ and /laugh at enemies... Anything other than repeating the same move again.

 

Alas, this is the level we've come to. I think a more appropriate thing to do is /cry.

 

Let's talk about this whenever we remove the cooldown from weapon swap or give separate initiative pools to each weapon set. The Thief already has TOO MANY limits on what it can do. It doesn't need any more.

 

Heck, just make D/P and S/D as lethal and survivable as Unload, and I'll be happy. That's the true problem for the Thief. Our strongest attack is from range. Not only does it avoid all of the lethal AoE, but it can be done more than once every 4+ seconds. Instead of increasing melee lethality (which should always outdamage ranged skills), Anet decided to drive it into the ground.

 

The sad truth is this... you're wanting Anet to "fix" a problem that they created by breaking something else.

 

I prefer D/P. I prefer S/D. Neither is as effective against the majority of players as Unload is. It's not due to the skill itself. It's due to the nature of the Thief's fragility and vulnerability. The Might-stacking should be moved to melee sets instead if it exists anywhere.

 

> @"ilmi.5369" said:

> Smoke field > SB cluster bomb > profit. If you have blinding powder slotted this gives up to 10s of stealth which gives plenty of time to cross half of the map and be battle ready after 5 seconds.

 

I don't understand. What kind of P/P Thief is sitting somewhere with a full initiative bar waiting to ambush someone from Stealth? And what good does a single Unload do? Why would any decent driver start a race with his gas tank half empty against someone with a full tank? I can understand the frustration if a P/P Thief continuously jumps into Stealth and Unloads every few seconds (had it happen to me when I was S/D)... but that's the exception to the rule. Stealthing with Shortbow is a one-time use thing in a fight, and can only be Unloaded from as an opener. Blinding Powder gives up the Assassin's Signet or a stun breaker. As with everything else with the Thief, Stealth is a trade-off with something else extremely valuable.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > @"ilmi.5369" said:

> > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > >

> > > > It's not an assumption though, it is an actual fact. The game has counter play and people are choosing not to use it and instead whinge on the pvp forum.

> > > >

> > > > I also don't know why you think its faster than other builds, lots of builds can damage quickly with zerker and can one shot. Pretty much any class can do it. And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times.

> > >

> > > Well, yes, people need to learn and to adapt in order to be successful. So should p/p thieves learn to live without the high bust of unload or its initiative refund. Also there is a grey area between people not being willed or able to adapt and some skills doing too much for to little effort. Stating an opinion as a fact doesn't support your point.

> > >

> > > Of course a P/P DD has the same access to stealth as any other thief wearing a pistol OH. Smoke field > SB cluster bomb > profit. If you have blinding powder slotted this gives up to 10s of stealth which gives plenty of time to cross half of the map and be battle ready after 5 seconds. And DE is even worse while being able to camp the home node in perma stealth just waiting for you to leave the mid fight and come run for a quick decap. Are you actually saying that you watch the mini map at all times (that does not show enemies if not tracked by a team mate) and while you are in a battle situation or approaching an empty capture point, you would never be caught in surprise by a thief? That you always have saved all stun breaks, blocks or whatever to be able to react accordingly? I have seen this argument pretty frequently in this forum. That's pretty far from reality at best...

> >

> > You aren't crossing half of anything in 10s if you used all your INI on cluster bomb and have nothing left for sb5, and furthermore you'd need to have some INI left to actually USE some unloads after those 10s, which you either used on a single sb5 near the end of the 10s stealth OR you didn't sb5 at all and you have enough INI for A SINGLE unload, which is not enough damage to kill anyone but another thief even if they are standing in mid afk.

> >

> > So in practice this doesn't really ever happen, P/P thieves typically walk around and save their INI for unloads. They might use a single SB5 when leaving the dead box since you can recharge 5 by the time you walk to mid, probably. I really don't see that much stealthing from P/P theives, and the ones who do use it are very easy to kill since they can't move around quickly after stealthing (you just aoe where he stealthed).

> >

> > For reference, INI naturally recharges at a rate of 6 every 10 seconds.

> >

> > Also, for the people who keep saying they want unload to have AMMO, INI is functionally equivalent ALREADY to having ammo. There is no difference between the two.

> >

> > > @"ilmi.5369" said:

> > > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > > The underlying issue is not that p/p unload overtuned.

> > > You keep on saying that. And I say it is. 10-15K burst out of the box that fast is clearly too much - even for a class that is designed to apply damage as fast as possible. It does not need preparation, it does not need stealth, it does not need blasting fire fields and it does not need any other combination. It just comes like that. Yes, the other skills are not beneficial for p/p power thief. Well, if you could not perma spam this sure shot because e.g. initiative would not be reimburse, you would have to adapt and use the weaker skills. Or give him a compensation in whatever form - I'm sure that we could figure out a proper compensation if we were not busy in justifying the need for that damage of unload.

> > 15k burst out of the box is something that just about every class in the game can do with dps setups. Unload hits 8x Damage: 147 (0.4)?, gravedigger hits 1x Damage: 1,210 (3.0)?, as a random example. Plenty of things in this game hit harder than unload.

>

> Can't really compare unload to gravedigger though... while, sure, GD cleaves and does a lot of damage it's got a huge windup and a short range and a long CD. Unload is, sure, single target, but hits from range and can be spammed. Couple that with stealth and tons of mobility / escape... it can be problematic. Getting +1'd by a PP thief while engaged in a fun 1v1 and dying to unload out of stealth is not anything close to the same as getting hit by a Gravedigger hit.

>

> Again, I don't really hate PP all that much. They are easy to kill if you're team is smart. But you have to look at abilities as parts of the whole system, not by themselves.

 

P/P thief has poor mobility and poor stealth access. Added to that your Necro using Gravedigger and wearing Zerker is going to have 8000 more health over your Thief in zerker using unload. The Necro does not have to hit as often to take away just as great and more a percentage of that thiefs health.

 

People CONTINUE to ignore the fact that the Zerker thief has 8000 less health then things like warrior and necro. A thief hitting a Necro or Warrior with a 10k burst removes 50 percent of that players health if that player in Zerker. To remove 50 percent of that same Thiefs health in a single attack takes 5500 damage on a single attack. Why is it ok to remove 50% of another persons health as long as you are not a thief or are people claiming that Necro and Warrior do not have attacks that hit for 5500?

[babazhook.6805]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> I think the problem is more range than anything else. Just by design, the hardest hitting abilities should be melee. And then, the second offense is that it's just one-button spam.

>

> While I've been +1 by an unload pp thief more than enough times, they aren't that great. In the hands of a good thief, they are tough as balls... but they'd still be better as s/d in conquest (in the hands of a good thief).

>

> I guess the good news is that with all these "PP Teeves OP" threads out there then a lot more scrubs will pick up the spec and get eaten alive ;)

 

P/P thief works best when used in conjunction with something like s/d where one IN s/d as much and more .

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > Tank builds are generally supposed to be able to handle 1v2s (if not necessarily win them)

>

> And glass cannons are supposed to be able to counter tanks/bunkers. What good is a glass cannon if it can't kill anything but another glass cannon?

 

No, if a glass cannon can counter a tank build then it will by definition autokill anything that isn't a tank, which then begs the question of what run anything that isn't a glass cannon at which point you've created a rocket tag meta which nobody enjoys.

 

In the more balanced metas, attrition builds counter tanks, while glassier builds are for killing other damage dealers.

 

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> if a glass cannon can counter a tank build then it will by definition autokill anything that isn't a tank

 

As it should be a big threat to non-tanks. Just as anything can easily kill a glass cannon.

 

> which then begs the question of what run anything that isn't a glass cannon

 

Different playstyles. Tanks should be more forgiving to play, slower and more passive.

If the above post is true, and tanks can 1v2, then why play anything other than a tank? Is it better that no one can kill each other?

 

I'm not saying a glass cannon should be able to 1-shot a tank. But it should be able to be a heavy threat if not focused on.

 

It's just as a Scourge is to a Thief now. Good luck to the Thief if he's playing Dagger or Sword. But good luck to the Scourge if the Thief has Pistols. Builds and counter-builds. Playstyles and counter-playstyles.

[pah.4931]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"pah.4931" said:

> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > @"ilmi.5369" said:

> > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > >

> > > > > It's not an assumption though, it is an actual fact. The game has counter play and people are choosing not to use it and instead whinge on the pvp forum.

> > > > >

> > > > > I also don't know why you think its faster than other builds, lots of builds can damage quickly with zerker and can one shot. Pretty much any class can do it. And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times.

> > > >

> > > > Well, yes, people need to learn and to adapt in order to be successful. So should p/p thieves learn to live without the high bust of unload or its initiative refund. Also there is a grey area between people not being willed or able to adapt and some skills doing too much for to little effort. Stating an opinion as a fact doesn't support your point.

> > > >

> > > > Of course a P/P DD has the same access to stealth as any other thief wearing a pistol OH. Smoke field > SB cluster bomb > profit. If you have blinding powder slotted this gives up to 10s of stealth which gives plenty of time to cross half of the map and be battle ready after 5 seconds. And DE is even worse while being able to camp the home node in perma stealth just waiting for you to leave the mid fight and come run for a quick decap. Are you actually saying that you watch the mini map at all times (that does not show enemies if not tracked by a team mate) and while you are in a battle situation or approaching an empty capture point, you would never be caught in surprise by a thief? That you always have saved all stun breaks, blocks or whatever to be able to react accordingly? I have seen this argument pretty frequently in this forum. That's pretty far from reality at best...

> > >

> > > You aren't crossing half of anything in 10s if you used all your INI on cluster bomb and have nothing left for sb5, and furthermore you'd need to have some INI left to actually USE some unloads after those 10s, which you either used on a single sb5 near the end of the 10s stealth OR you didn't sb5 at all and you have enough INI for A SINGLE unload, which is not enough damage to kill anyone but another thief even if they are standing in mid afk.

> > >

> > > So in practice this doesn't really ever happen, P/P thieves typically walk around and save their INI for unloads. They might use a single SB5 when leaving the dead box since you can recharge 5 by the time you walk to mid, probably. I really don't see that much stealthing from P/P theives, and the ones who do use it are very easy to kill since they can't move around quickly after stealthing (you just aoe where he stealthed).

> > >

> > > For reference, INI naturally recharges at a rate of 6 every 10 seconds.

> > >

> > > Also, for the people who keep saying they want unload to have AMMO, INI is functionally equivalent ALREADY to having ammo. There is no difference between the two.

> > >

> > > > @"ilmi.5369" said:

> > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > > > The underlying issue is not that p/p unload overtuned.

> > > > You keep on saying that. And I say it is. 10-15K burst out of the box that fast is clearly too much - even for a class that is designed to apply damage as fast as possible. It does not need preparation, it does not need stealth, it does not need blasting fire fields and it does not need any other combination. It just comes like that. Yes, the other skills are not beneficial for p/p power thief. Well, if you could not perma spam this sure shot because e.g. initiative would not be reimburse, you would have to adapt and use the weaker skills. Or give him a compensation in whatever form - I'm sure that we could figure out a proper compensation if we were not busy in justifying the need for that damage of unload.

> > > 15k burst out of the box is something that just about every class in the game can do with dps setups. Unload hits 8x Damage: 147 (0.4)?, gravedigger hits 1x Damage: 1,210 (3.0)?, as a random example. Plenty of things in this game hit harder than unload.

> >

> > Can't really compare unload to gravedigger though... while, sure, GD cleaves and does a lot of damage it's got a huge windup and a short range and a long CD. Unload is, sure, single target, but hits from range and can be spammed. Couple that with stealth and tons of mobility / escape... it can be problematic. Getting +1'd by a PP thief while engaged in a fun 1v1 and dying to unload out of stealth is not anything close to the same as getting hit by a Gravedigger hit.

> >

> > Again, I don't really hate PP all that much. They are easy to kill if you're team is smart. But you have to look at abilities as parts of the whole system, not by themselves.

>

> P/P thief has poor mobility and poor stealth access. Added to that your Necro using Gravedigger and wearing Zerker is going to have 8000 more health over your Thief in zerker using unload. The Necro does not have to hit as often to take away just as great and more a percentage of that thiefs health.

>

> People CONTINUE to ignore the fact that the Zerker thief has 8000 less health then things like warrior and necro. A thief hitting a Necro or Warrior with a 10k burst removes 50 percent of that players health if that player in Zerker. To remove 50 percent of that same Thiefs health in a single attack takes 5500 damage on a single attack. Why is it ok to remove 50% of another persons health as long as you are not a thief or are people claiming that Necro and Warrior do not have attacks that hit for 5500?

 

Again, I cannot take you seriously if you're comparing Unload to Gravedigger -- just because "they both do lots of damage." Landing Gravedigger is exponentially harder to do than Unload. If you miss the Gravedigger it's on cooldown. Gravedigger has a slow wind-up (you can literally walk away from it without dodging lol) and no range. There is no way to "surprise" a player with Gravedigger, barring an ally giving us stealth (and even then, who opens with GD from stealth?)... Necros can't teleport into a fight mid-animation like radiant hammer.

 

"Poor mobility and stealth access =/= no mobility and stealth access.

 

Bottomline, Thieves can engage from stealth, spam a high damage ability without any drawbacks (not punished for missing or it being dodged cause you can just re-position and try again), and then disengage if things get hairy. Necros lumber into battle and hope you're dumb enough to stand in their slow attacks ;)

 

If you're +1'd by a Power Reaper by surprise, which is really why people hate PP thief so much, then you should consider taking a long break and thinking about life choices :D

[Legatus.3608]

> @"ilmi.5369" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

>

> > Dp thief needs stealth for backstab and backstab does not require ini, pp thief would not waste ini for stealth when it provides literally nothing of benefit to him. That is the point. With 12 ini you can unload twice, with 6 only once. One unload doesn't kill anyone and the argument about +1 isn't valid, there are 5 players on each team and pp thief lacks the ability to move around like dp without nerfing his own damage.

>

> Yes to d/p requiring stealth for full potential but no to p/p not benefitting from stealth, at all. Stealth generally is a very strong advantage in any fight as you can attack without any reading. Just think of team stealth with thief, mesmer or engineer. The enemy sees you coming and and disappearing and knows exactly that you will strike in a few seconds. And still they are pretty open vulnerable,as you can read them easier as they can read you.

> At first you said p/p cannot move unseen in a pvp arena, then you said they cannot stealth and now you are saying they can but never would because it's not efficient. While I never said it would be, I get the feeling that you just don't want to admit that this possibility exists and occurs. Probably, they do not waste their full initiative for stealth, and maybe they just used shadow step and blinding powder for a nice opener - I won't argue about the most efficient way to play p/p. But as a matter of fact they can attack from stealth and still have sufficient ini to unload 2-3 times on various players I have seen in battle (including myself). Even if one unload does not kill you it can leave you with little health forcing you to retreat or to go down in the next attack wave. Some players have reflects ready and can easyly fight back or are tanky enough (hello warrior), to deal with that bad suprise, while others go down wondering what they just hit.

>

> Hell, every class can attack you in an unexpected moment, let it be a team fight or just a bad camera angle while interacting with a buff at foe fire. You would be the first person never being caught off guard by a p/p thief.

>

>

 

At no point did I ever say stealth does not exist for a pp thief. YOU said pp thief can stealth for 10+ seconds and still travel across the half the map to fight something WHICH IS FALSE

 

I'm not going to continue arguing with you about something EVERYONE (except you apparently) understands and agrees upon.

 

Stealth as a mechanic DOES NOT HELP the pistols thief. It REMOVES the ability to use unload by draining your ini.

[ilmi.5369]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> At no point did I ever say stealth does not exist for a pp thief.

 

Let me quote you:

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times.

 

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

>YOU said thief can stealth for 10+ seconds and still travel across the half the map to fight something WHICH IS FALSE

I said 'up to 10' and not 10+. I did not claim that as the always go to style but as an extreme example that any thief on offhand pistol and short bow can do with shadowstep. I was addressing your statement that the only access to stealth would be blinding powder and that a p/p thief basically cannot attack you on surprise which is a false (even without stealth there are plenty of situations to get someone unguarded).

 

> I'm not going to continue arguing with you about something EVERYONE (except you apparently) understands and agrees upon.

Fine with me. Besides you have preferred to understand my comment as an attempt to describe p/p as a perma stealth build that can dps for ages while being invisible and argue about the typical and most efficient fighting style of a p/p hief , while I was pointing out the fact that he has the ability to show up unexpectedly from behind a corner or from stealth and take you on surprise. Something that you have failed to acknowledge initially.

 

> Stealth as a mechanic DOES NOT HELP the pistols thief. It REMOVES the ability to use unload by draining your ini.

Stealth as such does not remove anything but gives an advantage to anyone. What you probably mean and what I can agree with, is that draining your whole initiative and then starting a battle before it got reimbursed does not allow to spam 3 unloads in a row. That's obvious and can be said for basically any skill that requires initiative.

[Skittledness.5106]

P/p is a gimmick cheesy build that is easily counterplayed like any they cheesy glassy spec in this game.

The fact that this thread has gained this much traction leaves me with little faith in our delusional community.One can only hope that anet does not look to the forums for balance advice

[ilmi.5369]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> Heck, just make D/P and S/D as lethal and survivable as Unload, and I'll be happy. That's the true problem for the Thief. Our strongest attack is from range. Not only does it avoid all of the lethal AoE, but it can be done more than once every 4+ seconds. Instead of increasing melee lethality (which should always outdamage ranged skills), Anet decided to drive it into the ground.

 

+1 on that. A spammable range skill should not be that powerful compared to its mellee relatives. On my d/p I must use 4 skills in one combo to get comparable burst results and add in a 5th skill in order to stick to my target.

 

> > @"ilmi.5369" said:

> > Smoke field > SB cluster bomb > profit. If you have blinding powder slotted this gives up to 10s of stealth which gives plenty of time to cross half of the map and be battle ready after 5 seconds.

>

> I don't understand. What kind of P/P Thief is sitting somewhere with a full initiative bar waiting to ambush someone from Stealth? And what good does a single Unload do? Why would any decent driver start a race with his gas tank half empty against someone with a full tank? I can understand the frustration if a P/P Thief continuously jumps into Stealth and Unloads every few seconds (had it happen to me when I was S/D)... but that's the exception to the rule. Stealthing with Shortbow is a one-time use thing in a fight, and can only be Unloaded from as an opener. Blinding Powder gives up the Assassin's Signet or a stun breaker. As with everything else with the Thief, Stealth is a trade-off with something else extremely valuable.

 

Since you asked: A single unload is enough to bring my own thief on marauder amulet down if it gets me from behind while for example running from mid to capture a side node and while coming with a little less than 100% health. While it is the spammability abuse of this skills that makes it so frustrating, one unload by itself still does hurt enough to bring me in trouble.

Also, I don't want to be misunderstood. I haven't meant that stealth is the best tactic to win a match or it is the pattern of a typical p/p thief. Yes, blinding powder is a trade off. You could swap it against roll for initiative or whatever or you dont slot it. Yes, you would not use cluster bomb stealth in fight but could use it as a prep before moving out for a side node decap in order not to be seen on the way.

[Legatus.3608]

> @"ilmi.5369" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > At no point did I ever say stealth does not exist for a pp thief.

>

> Let me quote you:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > And you're saying they do it from stealth which is factually untrue, pp thief does not typically have any access to stealth aside from blinding powder in his utility slot. It should be very obvious where he is at almost all times.

>

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> >YOU said thief can stealth for 10+ seconds and still travel across the half the map to fight something WHICH IS FALSE

> I said 'up to 10' and not 10+. I did not claim that as the always go to style but as an extreme example that any thief on offhand pistol and short bow can do with shadowstep. I was addressing your statement that the only access to stealth would be blinding powder and that a p/p thief basically cannot attack you on surprise which is a false (even without stealth there are plenty of situations to get someone unguarded).

>

> > I'm not going to continue arguing with you about something EVERYONE (except you apparently) understands and agrees upon.

> Fine with me. Besides you have preferred to understand my comment as an attempt to describe p/p as a perma stealth build that can dps for ages while being invisible and argue about the typical and most efficient fighting style of a p/p hief , while I was pointing out the fact that he has the ability to show up unexpectedly from behind a corner or from stealth and take you on surprise. Something that you have failed to acknowledge initially.

>

> > Stealth as a mechanic DOES NOT HELP the pistols thief. It REMOVES the ability to use unload by draining your ini.

> Stealth as such does not remove anything but gives an advantage to anyone. What you probably mean and what I can agree with, is that draining your whole initiative and then starting a battle before it got reimbursed does not allow to spam 3 unloads in a row. That's obvious and can be said for basically any skill that requires initiative.

 

Lol, but unload is the entire point of this thread. Why are you commenting about something that removes the ability to spam unload? Context please.