Please Overhaul Raids.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> well even 100 level fractals are easy enough, so exact same principle for the easy mode raids apply, you have to beat the final boss etc for the special token x etc.

 

If you consider fractal level 100 to be easy you'll have no problem with almost all bosses from wing 1-4. Maybe you have to practice Matthias and Xera a little bit more than you practiced level 100 but all the other bosses are kinda comparable to that difficulty. Most of them are even so much easier in terms of mechanics like for example VG, Gorse, Trio, Escort, KC, Cairn, MO, Samarog.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > well even 100 level fractals are easy enough, so exact same principle for the easy mode raids apply, you have to beat the final boss etc for the special token x etc.

>

> If you consider fractal level 100 to be easy you'll have no problem with almost all bosses from wing 1-4. Maybe you have to practice Matthias and Xera a little bit more than you practiced level 100 but all the other bosses are kinda comparable to that difficulty. Most of them are even so much easier in terms of mechanics like for example VG, Gorse, Trio, Escort, KC, Cairn, MO, Samarog.

 

The problem with raids in its current format is the contiguous time required to learn the fights, its not puggable (especially when you see the 'requirements' posted for pugs) Theres a reason why most players avoid them. Anyway, it looks as if the issue is a fear that dev resources would be taken from current raid development for easy mode, thats not really how things work in real life so Easy mod raids is not actually impacting anyone, win win.

[Linken.6345]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > well even 100 level fractals are easy enough, so exact same principle for the easy mode raids apply, you have to beat the final boss etc for the special token x etc.

> >

> > If you consider fractal level 100 to be easy you'll have no problem with almost all bosses from wing 1-4. Maybe you have to practice Matthias and Xera a little bit more than you practiced level 100 but all the other bosses are kinda comparable to that difficulty. Most of them are even so much easier in terms of mechanics like for example VG, Gorse, Trio, Escort, KC, Cairn, MO, Samarog.

>

> The problem with raids in its current format is the contiguous time required to learn the fights, its not puggable (especially when you see the 'requirements' posted for pugs) Theres a reason why most players avoid them. Anyway, it looks as if the issue is a fear that dev resources would be taken from current raid development for easy mode, thats not really how things work in real life so Easy mod raids is not actually impacting anyone, win win.

 

The big question is are the ones wanting easy mode raids willing to wait longer on living world updates?

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > well even 100 level fractals are easy enough, so exact same principle for the easy mode raids apply, you have to beat the final boss etc for the special token x etc.

> > >

> > > If you consider fractal level 100 to be easy you'll have no problem with almost all bosses from wing 1-4. Maybe you have to practice Matthias and Xera a little bit more than you practiced level 100 but all the other bosses are kinda comparable to that difficulty. Most of them are even so much easier in terms of mechanics like for example VG, Gorse, Trio, Escort, KC, Cairn, MO, Samarog.

> >

> > The problem with raids in its current format is the contiguous time required to learn the fights, its not puggable (especially when you see the 'requirements' posted for pugs) Theres a reason why most players avoid them. Anyway, it looks as if the issue is a fear that dev resources would be taken from current raid development for easy mode, thats not really how things work in real life so Easy mod raids is not actually impacting anyone, win win.

>

> The big question is are the ones wanting easy mode raids willing to wait longer on living world updates?

 

well since it only takes 8 people to build raids from scratch out of 400 devs, you would need less than 8 devs to balance tweak a different instance of a raid. <8 out of 400 devs, so a fraction of 1% of living world which I think we can live without :)

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

accidental post

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> You could argue about the players who bought an occasional hard achievement/collection, but that's a different story. I still count them in the "did my effort" group, since they earned most of their LIs. Even if they didn't do *all* of it, they killed a lot of raid bosses by themselves. That shows enough dedication and will. It means something.

It means absolutely nothing. And i'm telling it as someone that farmed my leggie armor the "legit" (as you'd put it) way.

I can tell you for sure that my dedication to the game has been _lessened_ as a result. I seriously doubt that was what the devs had in mind.

 

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> The big question is are the ones wanting easy mode raids willing to wait longer on living world updates?

I think that living story team could spare a few devs without significantly impacting its development rate. Especially since it would likely not need to spare anyone doing the key stuff anyway.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

>Also you know that easier raids are the raids we play now? Hard raids are already in game but noone plays them because thay are not rewarded. Anet said they dont want multiple tiers of dificulty and thats why CMs are not rewarded. Same reason for yoir lower raids are to boost CMs

 

Irrelevant. Here I'm talking only about raids that are *easier* versions of the existing ones. I have no problem with there also being harder ones, but that's not my issue.

 

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> If it wouldn't be a bother to you, would you please kindly point out to the majority of the hard core raiders that demand hard mode only. As evidence by [this poll](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/18677/do-raids-need-easy-normal-hard-difficulty-mode-merged/p1 "this poll"), they seem to be a minority.

 

As you note, a large number of people in the poll do seem open to the idea of easy mode raids, but most of the more frequent *posters* in this and other threads refuse the idea of easy mode raids, or IF they would "allow" it, it could only be in the form of a deliberately crippled mode that involves no actual rewards or junked up mechanics that have almost nothing to do with the normal version. Very few of the raiders that are *discussing* the topic are willing to entertain the idea of an easy mode that is considered a *co-equal* game mode to the normal mode, one which players are expected to play as their *main* form of raiding if that suits their tastes.

 

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> it's about the skins and whether or not there should be an alternate path to get the legendary envoy skins. Most of those that argue for easy mode want the legendary envoy in easy mode.

 

Why shouldn't they?

 

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

>Ad infinitum is also not rewarded only for easy fractals. You can get it by playing mostly lower tier fractals but you need to play T4 alittle bit. I can support the same treatmet for raids but i will not give legendary armor to anyone who doesnt do normal raids alittle bit

 

Why not? Why should people *have* to do the normal mode raid if they have no interest in doing so?

 

Who benefits from that?

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> *Precisely* my point. The majority of the people are comfortable paying around this price tag. You're arguing about one which is more than *a hundred times* higher. The number of the people willing to pay will not be 1%, of those willing to buy at the normal tag, it will be *much* lower. For stuff like this you can safely assume a bell curve distribution, and you'll be looking at its very end, where it approaches the zero line. No statistical significance whatsoever.

 

Obviously, but that doesn't make them insignificant either. If even 100 people are willing to pay $700 then that's $70,000. That's a person's salary, or two. They would typically make *more* money by going mass market and selling at a price that most customers would buy, but if they do want to keep something "exclusive" then the money that can be made off of whales is still nothing to sneeze at. These are not unreasonable numbers, a recent poll on /r/FateGrandOrder determined that around 50% of respondents had the "Jeanne Alter" character, which you only had a 1% chance of getting from each $3 roll you make (not counting the free currency). Some of those players could have gotten it F2P, but a great many of those players (*and* the players in the other 50%) likely spent over $100, maybe over $300, and at least a few recorded cases of well over $1000 in the attempt. It's also worth keeping in mind that of that 50%, many of them would have continued on trying to get as many as *5* unique copies of the character.

 

The only point I'm making here is that there likely ARE plenty of customers who are buying their way to Legendary Armor, it is NOT something that can be used to denote personal accomplishment, since people are willing and able to buy it off the rack.

 

>You seem to forget the source of this particular debate. Let's assume you 10% estimate is correct, although there's no way that many people bought all of it. You're still looking at 90% legit, "did my effort" armors vs 10% no-effort ones. Imagine easy mode access and fast-forward enough to when the grind would allow their completion like that. You'll be looking at 90% (or more) no-effort sets and 10% (or less) legit ones. This is why raid selling isn't an issue in this regard - the number of players who undermine the value of the envoy is statistically insignificant.

 

If the point you're insisting on is "Legendary armor is a badge of honor, and plebes don't deserve to ever have it" then ANY amount of raid-selling negates that entire argument. There is no such thing as "statistically insignificant" in that regard.

 

If people can buy their way to the armor, then there's no reason that players should not be able to earn their way to it via an easier difficulty mode.

 

>You could argue about the players who bought an occasional hard achievement/collection, but that's a different story. I still count them in the "did my effort" group, since they earned most of their LIs. Even if they didn't do all of it, they killed a lot of raid bosses by themselves. That shows enough dedication and will. It means something.

 

So if a player **bought** all of his one-time clears of the harder encounters, but then ground out all his LIs from the escorts and other encounters that people in this thread have referred to as "already easy mode," **to you** that would be 100% "earning the armor?" If that's the case, then why not just let him complete the encounters in easy mode, rather than paying to be carried through them? Is it because that would cut down on the lucrative raid-selling business? I think it's because that would cut down on the lucrative raid-selling business.

 

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> The big question is are the ones wanting easy mode raids willing to wait longer on living world updates?

 

For the time it would take to implement easy mode raids? Yes.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

>It means absolutely nothing. And i'm telling it as someone that farmed my leggie armor the "legit" (as you'd put it) way.

>I can tell you for sure that my dedication to the game has been lessened as a result. I seriously doubt that was what the devs had in mind.

 

Yes, that's how I felt about The Ascension. I earned it "the legit way" and it completely burned me out. I feel a lot less engaged with the game now than I did before I started that process, and certainly never want to go back into PvP again.

 

 

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> >Also you know that easier raids are the raids we play now? Hard raids are already in game but noone plays them because thay are not rewarded. Anet said they dont want multiple tiers of dificulty and thats why CMs are not rewarded. Same reason for yoir lower raids are to boost CMs

>

> Irrelevant. Here I'm talking only about raids that are *easier* versions of the existing ones. I have no problem with there also being harder ones, but that's not my issue.

>

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > If it wouldn't be a bother to you, would you please kindly point out to the majority of the hard core raiders that demand hard mode only. As evidence by [this poll](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/18677/do-raids-need-easy-normal-hard-difficulty-mode-merged/p1 "this poll"), they seem to be a minority.

>

> As you note, a large number of people in the poll do seem open to the idea of easy mode raids, but most of the more frequent *posters* in this and other threads refuse the idea of easy mode raids, or IF they would "allow" it, it could only be in the form of a deliberately crippled mode that involves no actual rewards or junked up mechanics that have almost nothing to do with the normal version. Very few of the raiders that are *discussing* the topic are willing to entertain the idea of an easy mode that is considered a *co-equal* game mode to the normal mode, one which players are expected to play as their *main* form of raiding if that suits their tastes.

>

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > it's about the skins and whether or not there should be an alternate path to get the legendary envoy skins. Most of those that argue for easy mode want the legendary envoy in easy mode.

>

> Why shouldn't they?

>

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> >Ad infinitum is also not rewarded only for easy fractals. You can get it by playing mostly lower tier fractals but you need to play T4 alittle bit. I can support the same treatmet for raids but i will not give legendary armor to anyone who doesnt do normal raids alittle bit

>

> Why not? Why should people *have* to do the normal mode raid if they have no interest in doing so?

>

> Who benefits from that?

>

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > *Precisely* my point. The majority of the people are comfortable paying around this price tag. You're arguing about one which is more than *a hundred times* higher. The number of the people willing to pay will not be 1%, of those willing to buy at the normal tag, it will be *much* lower. For stuff like this you can safely assume a bell curve distribution, and you'll be looking at its very end, where it approaches the zero line. No statistical significance whatsoever.

>

> Obviously, but that doesn't make them insignificant either. If even 100 people are willing to pay $700 then that's $70,000. That's a person's salary, or two. They would typically make *more* money by going mass market and selling at a price that most customers would buy, but if they do want to keep something "exclusive" then the money that can be made off of whales is still nothing to sneeze at. These are not unreasonable numbers, a recent poll on /r/FateGrandOrder determined that around 50% of respondents had the "Jeanne Alter" character, which you only had a 1% chance of getting from each $3 roll you make (not counting the free currency). Some of those players could have gotten it F2P, but a great many of those players (*and* the players in the other 50%) likely spent over $100, maybe over $300, and at least a few recorded cases of well over $1000 in the attempt. It's also worth keeping in mind that of that 50%, many of them would have continued on trying to get as many as *5* unique copies of the character.

>

> The only point I'm making here is that there likely ARE plenty of customers who are buying their way to Legendary Armor, it is NOT something that can be used to denote personal accomplishment, since people are willing and able to buy it off the rack.

>

> >You seem to forget the source of this particular debate. Let's assume you 10% estimate is correct, although there's no way that many people bought all of it. You're still looking at 90% legit, "did my effort" armors vs 10% no-effort ones. Imagine easy mode access and fast-forward enough to when the grind would allow their completion like that. You'll be looking at 90% (or more) no-effort sets and 10% (or less) legit ones. This is why raid selling isn't an issue in this regard - the number of players who undermine the value of the envoy is statistically insignificant.

>

> If the point you're insisting on is "Legendary armor is a badge of honor, and plebes don't deserve to ever have it" then ANY amount of raid-selling negates that entire argument. There is no such thing as "statistically insignificant" in that regard.

>

> If people can buy their way to the armor, then there's no reason that players should not be able to earn their way to it via an easier difficulty mode.

>

> >You could argue about the players who bought an occasional hard achievement/collection, but that's a different story. I still count them in the "did my effort" group, since they earned most of their LIs. Even if they didn't do all of it, they killed a lot of raid bosses by themselves. That shows enough dedication and will. It means something.

>

> So if a player **bought** all of his one-time clears of the harder encounters, but then ground out all his LIs from the escorts and other encounters that people in this thread have referred to as "already easy mode," **to you** that would be 100% "earning the armor?" If that's the case, then why not just let him complete the encounters in easy mode, rather than paying to be carried through them? Is it because that would cut down on the lucrative raid-selling business? I think it's because that would cut down on the lucrative raid-selling business.

>

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > The big question is are the ones wanting easy mode raids willing to wait longer on living world updates?

>

> For the time it would take to implement easy mode raids? Yes.

>

>

 

The only reason they don't want easier grouping options and possibly easier difficulty of raids, is because they enjoy being able to lord their accomplishments over others, but when we break down what they have achieved it actually isn't much, so really it's more about ego insecurities more then anything else.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> The only reason they don't want easier grouping options and possibly easier difficulty of raids, is because they enjoy being able to lord their accomplishments over others, but when we break down what they have achieved it actually isn't much, so really it's more about ego insecurities more then anything else.

 

Not true at all.

 

Automation takes out any reasons to stick with a group with things go belly up. This alone is a good reason to not have it.

With the current system players are at least invested enough when joining groups that they don't up and leave at the first sign of it not working.

Swapping to automation removes that and the social aspect of being invested and improving as a group because why bother since you have a 50/50 chance of getting a better group in the next queue.

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > The only reason they don't want easier grouping options and possibly easier difficulty of raids, is because they enjoy being able to lord their accomplishments over others, but when we break down what they have achieved it actually isn't much, so really it's more about ego insecurities more then anything else.

>

> Not true at all.

>

> Automation takes out any reasons to stick with a group with things go belly up. This alone is a good reason to not have it.

> With the current system players are at least invested enough when joining groups that they don't up and leave at the first sign of it not working.

> Swapping to automation removes that and the social aspect of being invested and improving as a group because why bother since you have a 50/50 chance of getting a better group in the next queue.

>

 

This happens in pugs anyways, what the point?

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > The only reason they don't want easier grouping options and possibly easier difficulty of raids, is because they enjoy being able to lord their accomplishments over others, but when we break down what they have achieved it actually isn't much, so really it's more about ego insecurities more then anything else.

>

> Not true at all.

>

> Automation takes out any reasons to stick with a group with things go belly up. This alone is a good reason to not have it.

> With the current system players are at least invested enough when joining groups that they don't up and leave at the first sign of it not working.

From my observations that's _already the case_ with pugs. As soon as things go south, people start leaving. Peopla that stay through that would stay even with automated system. People that would leave to requeue are leaving already.

 

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> Swapping to automation removes that and the social aspect of being invested and improving as a group because why bother since you have a 50/50 chance of getting a better group in the next queue.

Only statics care about that. Pugs generally don't care about "improving as a group", because there's no group. It's just ten unrelated players that will likely never encounter each other again in the same group setup. There's no point in being invested. In fact, the investment level is so low that you don't even see much of rages and flaming if things go bad. People just leave without word.

 

 

 

 

 

[vesica tempestas.1563]

The arguments against easy mode raids:

 

1. It would be an issue if they got same skins as hard mode : thats an obvious given, you would expect normal mode to have different unique skins, both sides want that.

2. It would take dev resource away from existing raids: Nope, only 8 devs or so needed to build all the existing raids. Based on this logic you would need only a couple of the other 400 devs to implement easy mode raids which is simply a reconfigured hard mode instance.

3. Its not proven people want easier mode raids: Yes it is, apart from common sense (a raid is just an instance) , we can see from other AAA mmorpgs that easy mode raids are MASSIVELY more popular hard mode raids.

4. Easy mode raids should not have legendary skins. Wrong, its no different to wvw and pvp, same extended timelines, so hard mode has the advantage of efficiency (as well as their own unique skins)

 

So, make sure gear is unique and its a gimme, win win for all. The only other arguments are based on selfish intent that should have no home in a mmorpg like GW2 that aims to be casual friendly and inclusive.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> >Also you know that easier raids are the raids we play now? Hard raids are already in game but noone plays them because thay are not rewarded. Anet said they dont want multiple tiers of dificulty and thats why CMs are not rewarded. Same reason for yoir lower raids are to boost CMs

>

> Irrelevant. Here I'm talking only about raids that are *easier* versions of the existing ones. I have no problem with there also being harder ones, but that's not my issue.

>

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > If it wouldn't be a bother to you, would you please kindly point out to the majority of the hard core raiders that demand hard mode only. As evidence by [this poll](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/18677/do-raids-need-easy-normal-hard-difficulty-mode-merged/p1 "this poll"), they seem to be a minority.

>

> As you note, a large number of people in the poll do seem open to the idea of easy mode raids, but most of the more frequent *posters* in this and other threads refuse the idea of easy mode raids, or IF they would "allow" it, it could only be in the form of a deliberately crippled mode that involves no actual rewards or junked up mechanics that have almost nothing to do with the normal version. Very few of the raiders that are *discussing* the topic are willing to entertain the idea of an easy mode that is considered a *co-equal* game mode to the normal mode, one which players are expected to play as their *main* form of raiding if that suits their tastes.

>

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > it's about the skins and whether or not there should be an alternate path to get the legendary envoy skins. Most of those that argue for easy mode want the legendary envoy in easy mode.

>

> Why shouldn't they?

>

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> >Ad infinitum is also not rewarded only for easy fractals. You can get it by playing mostly lower tier fractals but you need to play T4 alittle bit. I can support the same treatmet for raids but i will not give legendary armor to anyone who doesnt do normal raids alittle bit

>

> Why not? Why should people *have* to do the normal mode raid if they have no interest in doing so?

>

> Who benefits from that?

>

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > *Precisely* my point. The majority of the people are comfortable paying around this price tag. You're arguing about one which is more than *a hundred times* higher. The number of the people willing to pay will not be 1%, of those willing to buy at the normal tag, it will be *much* lower. For stuff like this you can safely assume a bell curve distribution, and you'll be looking at its very end, where it approaches the zero line. No statistical significance whatsoever.

>

> Obviously, but that doesn't make them insignificant either. If even 100 people are willing to pay $700 then that's $70,000. That's a person's salary, or two. They would typically make *more* money by going mass market and selling at a price that most customers would buy, but if they do want to keep something "exclusive" then the money that can be made off of whales is still nothing to sneeze at. These are not unreasonable numbers, a recent poll on /r/FateGrandOrder determined that around 50% of respondents had the "Jeanne Alter" character, which you only had a 1% chance of getting from each $3 roll you make (not counting the free currency). Some of those players could have gotten it F2P, but a great many of those players (*and* the players in the other 50%) likely spent over $100, maybe over $300, and at least a few recorded cases of well over $1000 in the attempt. It's also worth keeping in mind that of that 50%, many of them would have continued on trying to get as many as *5* unique copies of the character.

>

> The only point I'm making here is that there likely ARE plenty of customers who are buying their way to Legendary Armor, it is NOT something that can be used to denote personal accomplishment, since people are willing and able to buy it off the rack.

>

> >You seem to forget the source of this particular debate. Let's assume you 10% estimate is correct, although there's no way that many people bought all of it. You're still looking at 90% legit, "did my effort" armors vs 10% no-effort ones. Imagine easy mode access and fast-forward enough to when the grind would allow their completion like that. You'll be looking at 90% (or more) no-effort sets and 10% (or less) legit ones. This is why raid selling isn't an issue in this regard - the number of players who undermine the value of the envoy is statistically insignificant.

>

> If the point you're insisting on is "Legendary armor is a badge of honor, and plebes don't deserve to ever have it" then ANY amount of raid-selling negates that entire argument. There is no such thing as "statistically insignificant" in that regard.

>

> If people can buy their way to the armor, then there's no reason that players should not be able to earn their way to it via an easier difficulty mode.

>

> >You could argue about the players who bought an occasional hard achievement/collection, but that's a different story. I still count them in the "did my effort" group, since they earned most of their LIs. Even if they didn't do all of it, they killed a lot of raid bosses by themselves. That shows enough dedication and will. It means something.

>

> So if a player **bought** all of his one-time clears of the harder encounters, but then ground out all his LIs from the escorts and other encounters that people in this thread have referred to as "already easy mode," **to you** that would be 100% "earning the armor?" If that's the case, then why not just let him complete the encounters in easy mode, rather than paying to be carried through them? Is it because that would cut down on the lucrative raid-selling business? I think it's because that would cut down on the lucrative raid-selling business.

>

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > The big question is are the ones wanting easy mode raids willing to wait longer on living world updates?

>

> For the time it would take to implement easy mode raids? Yes.

>

 

I suppose you could buy the achievements at the cheaper rate, get the LI from those kills and then farm escort for the rest. That certainly wouldn’t be 750 dollars and would reasonably cheaper. I think some of these achievements are a couple hundred gold. So this looks very doable. Again it now just comes back to time.

 

 

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > The only reason they don't want easier grouping options and possibly easier difficulty of raids, is because they enjoy being able to lord their accomplishments over others, but when we break down what they have achieved it actually isn't much, so really it's more about ego insecurities more then anything else.

> >

> > Not true at all.

> >

> > Automation takes out any reasons to stick with a group with things go belly up. This alone is a good reason to not have it.

> > With the current system players are at least invested enough when joining groups that they don't up and leave at the first sign of it not working.

> > Swapping to automation removes that and the social aspect of being invested and improving as a group because why bother since you have a 50/50 chance of getting a better group in the next queue.

> >

>

> This happens in pugs anyways, what the point?

 

Raids aren't designed as an activity for Pugs. Not sure why that's even being used as a defense.

Just because you can do it, doesn't mean that's how the mode is designed.

 

They are however designed so that 10 people who want to work together can do so an reasonably improve and get kills. That's the social aspect that gets removed by swapping to a purely automated system.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

>Automation takes out any reasons to stick with a group with things go belly up. This alone is a good reason to not have it.

> With the current system players are at least invested enough when joining groups that they don't up and leave at the first sign of it not working.

 

You have just described every pug I’ve been in.

 

Sorry if the mode wasn’t design for it or not it’s still reality.

 

If Anet was really that driven to make them not puggable they would have attached raiding to guilds much like guild mission... As in you have to be in a guild to raid and can only raid with people in your guild.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > You could argue about the players who bought an occasional hard achievement/collection, but that's a different story. I still count them in the "did my effort" group, since they earned most of their LIs. Even if they didn't do *all* of it, they killed a lot of raid bosses by themselves. That shows enough dedication and will. It means something.

> It means absolutely nothing. And i'm telling it as someone that farmed my leggie armor the "legit" (as you'd put it) way.

> I can tell you for sure that my dedication to the game has been _lessened_ as a result. I seriously doubt that was what the devs had in mind.

 

My point had nothing to do with the "dedication to the game", it was about overcoming actual challenge. Which I'm fairly certain you did. The result you speak of is unfortunate and unintended, but I'm also quite certain you're an exception in this regard as well.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > *Precisely* my point. The majority of the people are comfortable paying around this price tag. You're arguing about one which is more than *a hundred times* higher. The number of the people willing to pay will not be 1%, of those willing to buy at the normal tag, it will be *much* lower. For stuff like this you can safely assume a bell curve distribution, and you'll be looking at its very end, where it approaches the zero line. No statistical significance whatsoever.

>

> Obviously, but that doesn't make them insignificant either. If even 100 people are willing to pay $700 then that's $70,000. That's a person's salary, or two. They would typically make *more* money by going mass market and selling at a price that most customers would buy, but if they do want to keep something "exclusive" then the money that can be made off of whales is still nothing to sneeze at. These are not unreasonable numbers, a recent poll on /r/FateGrandOrder determined that around 50% of respondents had the "Jeanne Alter" character, which you only had a 1% chance of getting from each $3 roll you make (not counting the free currency). Some of those players could have gotten it F2P, but a great many of those players (*and* the players in the other 50%) likely spent over $100, maybe over $300, and at least a few recorded cases of well over $1000 in the attempt. It's also worth keeping in mind that of that 50%, many of them would have continued on trying to get as many as *5* unique copies of the character.

>

> The only point I'm making here is that there likely ARE plenty of customers who are buying their way to Legendary Armor, it is NOT something that can be used to denote personal accomplishment, since people are willing and able to buy it off the rack.

 

No, there aren't. There are users you are buying select encounters or achievements. Nobody here said "I've bought all my 150 LIs". Nobody is even close to that. And you'd not only need a single example, you'd need to prove this is the norm in order to make your point valid. So no, you're wrong (again). The Envoy can, and does, denote personal accomplishment.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>No, there aren't. There are users you are buying select encounters or achievements. Nobody here said "I've bought all my 150 LIs".

 

Nobody *said* that, but that's nowhere close to meaning nobody's *done* that.

 

And again, even if the "fully bought" whales were only in the 3-4 digits, you would still be fine with a player who bought *all* the hard battle one-time completion requirements, and then farmed up the rest of his LI from the few encounters that raiders have *assured* me are "already easy mode?"

 

That, to you, would be more "earning it" than a player completing every easy mode encounter for himself?

 

>The Envoy can, and does, denote personal accomplishment.

 

No, it doesn't. If you feel that way, I can't stop you. I could claim that wearing a full set of Student's armor denotes an equally prestigious accomplishment, but you believing that it's some sort of "big deal" doesn't make it so.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >No, there aren't. There are users you are buying select encounters or achievements. Nobody here said "I've bought all my 150 LIs".

>

> Nobody *said* that, but that's nowhere close to meaning nobody's *done* that.

 

But it is practically the same as "no significant amount of people done that".

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> And again, even if the "fully bought" whales were only in the 3-4 digits, you would still be fine with a player who bought *all* the hard battle one-time completion requirements, and then farmed up the rest of his LI from the few encounters that raiders have *assured* me are "already easy mode?"

 

I still remember how it felt when I started raiding. Even if someone farmed the LIs on the easy encounters, that's an accomplishment for a non-raider. So it is something.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> >The Envoy can, and does, denote personal accomplishment.

>

> No, it doesn't. If you feel that way, I can't stop you. I could claim that wearing a full set of Student's armor denotes an equally prestigious accomplishment, but you believing that it's some sort of "big deal" doesn't make it so.

 

But here is the thing - the Envoy is *intended* to mean something to the raiders. You're arguing on an arbitrary basis, having no idea of the actual process. I've walked the whole path, I've earned all of it myself and I fully well know what it takes. Do you believe two opinions are always equally valid, regardless of how experienced are their respective owners in the matter in question?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>But it is practically the same as "no significant amount of people done that".

 

Again, you present no evidence to support this assumption. There is no reason to believe that less than 10% of all people with Envoy armor bought their way to it using a credit card. Is that the case? Maybe, maybe not, it's a complete unknown.

 

>I still remember how it felt when I started raiding. Even if someone farmed the LIs on the easy encounters, that's an accomplishment for a non-raider. So it is something.

 

But people keep telling me over and over and over and also over, that these easier encounters are *already* easy mode, so if a player just farms his LI from those, how would that be more of an "accomplishment" than farming them from an easy mode version of VG or Gorseval?

 

>But here is the thing - the Envoy is intended to mean something to the raiders.

 

So you're arguing authorial intent here? I remember people saying that the original dungeons were intended to be "hardcore." Authorial intent doesn't matter, only the result matters, and the result is that people can credit card their way to envoy armor, so regardless of how much effort *you* may have put in, the armor *itself* has *zero* value in denoting an accomplishment. It would be far healthier if you were to just take pride in *you* knowing that *you* earned it the hard way, rather than obsessing over whether you can tell how *other* players earned it, or imagining that other characters care how you did.

 

>Do you believe two opinions are always equally valid, regardless of how experienced are their respective owners in the matter in question?

 

In this case? Yes, that's how perspectives work. You're entitled to think that people are oh so impressed with your accomplishments, those other people are equally as entitled to think you're being silly for doing so. [There is an entire story about that premise.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes)

[Linken.6345]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > The only reason they don't want easier grouping options and possibly easier difficulty of raids, is because they enjoy being able to lord their accomplishments over others, but when we break down what they have achieved it actually isn't much, so really it's more about ego insecurities more then anything else.

> >

> > Not true at all.

> >

> > Automation takes out any reasons to stick with a group with things go belly up. This alone is a good reason to not have it.

> > With the current system players are at least invested enough when joining groups that they don't up and leave at the first sign of it not working.

> From my observations that's _already the case_ with pugs. As soon as things go south, people start leaving. Peopla that stay through that would stay even with automated system. People that would leave to requeue are leaving already.

>

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > Swapping to automation removes that and the social aspect of being invested and improving as a group because why bother since you have a 50/50 chance of getting a better group in the next queue.

> Only statics care about that. Pugs generally don't care about "improving as a group", because there's no group. It's just ten unrelated players that will likely never encounter each other again in the same group setup. There's no point in being invested. In fact, the investment level is so low that you don't even see much of rages and flaming if things go bad. People just leave without word.

>

>

>

>

>

 

since pugging is pretty small people will remember you if your good or a dick.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> In this case? Yes, that's how perspectives work. You're entitled to think that people are oh so impressed with your accomplishments, those other people are equally as entitled to think you're being silly for doing so.

 

But see, that's the thing. I'm not interested in uninformed people's opinions. They can think whatever they please. It doesn't concern me, because they don't know what my accomplishments took. In the very same way, to an outside players the whole "kp" affair can seem pointless and ridiculous. In both cases, _it's not about outside players_. It's about those participating. Those who know, and know very well, the meaning behind these items. In theory you could extend your argument to this case as well. But in practice it doesn't work like that. It's a mark of skill, dedication and perseverance, in something that *isn't easy*. You can't help but have some respect for people who earned their trophies.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>But see, that's the thing. I'm not interested in uninformed people's opinions. They can think whatever they please. It doesn't concern me, because they don't know what my accomplishments took.

 

Well ok, that sounds pretty healthy, but I'm having trouble reconciling that viewpoint with your position that you seem to care whether or not people wearing Envoy armor have "earned" it, to your satisfaction. Either you're secure in your own accomplishments or you're not. If you are, then nothing they can do can take anything away from you.

 

>It's a mark of skill, dedication and perseverance, in something that isn't easy. You can't help but have some respect for people who earned their trophies.

 

Of course you can. And again, just because someone *has* Envoy armor does not current mean that they earned it. Chances are that at least one person you've seen in Envoy armor bought it.

 

[CptAurellian.9537]

'shrug' If such an oddball exists who has bought his entire envoy armor, that's at least a sign of dedication and perseverance. Skill, probably less so. But still, throwing 10-15k gold at something is a feat in itself. That oddball doesn't lessen the achievement of the vast majority who got their armor the legit way. Not that it was a particularly big achievement, given that W1-4 are easymodes.

 

While we are at it, could we change one little word in this discussion? When current raids already are easymodes, the stuff demanded by some people should realistically be called "infantile mode". Precise wording is always helpful.

[Linken.6345]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> The arguments against easy mode raids:

>

> 1. It would be an issue if they got same skins as hard mode : thats an obvious given, you would expect normal mode to have different unique skins, both sides want that.

> 2. It would take dev resource away from existing raids: Nope, only 8 devs or so needed to build all the existing raids. Based on this logic you would need only a couple of the other 400 devs to implement easy mode raids which is simply a reconfigured hard mode instance.

> 3. Its not proven people want easier mode raids: Yes it is, apart from common sense (a raid is just an instance) , we can see from other AAA mmorpgs that easy mode raids are MASSIVELY more popular hard mode raids.

> 4. Easy mode raids should not have legendary skins. Wrong, its no different to wvw and pvp, same extended timelines, so hard mode has the advantage of efficiency (as well as their own unique skins)

>

> So, make sure gear is unique and its a gimme, win win for all. The only other arguments are based on selfish intent that should have no home in a mmorpg like GW2 that aims to be casual friendly and inclusive.

 

Maybe you should talk with Ohoni.6057 you both want easy mode raids but differ heavily on the rewards said easy mode should give.