Ohoni.6057 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > >No. Legendary weapons are still very niche. You need something for the greater masses. Something like a normal armor or weapon. Oh wait that exist. And also things that reward long term players. Looks like a good system. > > > > Legendary armor is more niche than legendary weapons. I'm really not sure what you're talking about. In this case you can't currently have the one without the other. If you can tell me how to get Envoy skins without purple armor, I'm all ears. >Yeah and this time you are in the crowd that can't be happy. Maybe it is time to accept it. No, I can be made happy, it would be relatively simple to achieve, they just haven't done the things to get there yet. >I never said that and stop quoting things out of context to fit your argumention. I actually understand that unique rewards in game modes are actually healthy for those game modes. I can accept that I don't get all rewards. Ok, and that's fine, for you, but not everyone is a quitter. > @"Raizel.8175" said: > Call me old-fashioned, but I always thought that the main-reward in playing games should be the gaming-experience itself. Definitely agreed, which is why I don't raid, but getting the loot is nice too. >Sure, legendary armor is also a reason for doing raids, but I mainly want to do them because the majority of open-world-content is just braindead running around and I need something that's engaging. And that's great, because if you'll read any thread on the subject, nobody is talking about removing or reducing that gameplay experience in any way. The goal is to *add* a *new* gameplay experience that is similar, but more to the tastes of a wider audience. The Legendary armor part of the discussion only came up because fans of the *current* raid were insisting that this new mode could *never* gain access to it. > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > It sounds to me like you have little to no PVP experience. That may be true. I basically did just enough to get The Ascension and then haven't really played since. I really hated the entire experience, which is why I don't intend to go through it again "just to get Legendary armor" in raids. >The difference is not simply "hitting the ranked button instead of unranked". In ranked matches people have lot higher expectations and it is more stress involving if you want good placements. Not really. I mean, if you just play casually then you tend to end up on teams that also play pretty casually *against* teams that also play pretty casually. You might get some jerk in the mix that's shouting at everyone, but so long as you make an effort you'll do fine. I can't imagine playing in unranked any worse than I'd play in ranked. I'll never be a "top 100 pro" PvPer, but I was plenty good to get the job done. >Why should it not have to take skill to get the envoy armor which was meant to be for endgame players? That's what I'm looking for, for it to take no more skill to earn Envoy armor than it takes to earn The Ascension, in a more casual version of the raids. > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: >Which makes it reasonable to conclude that ~70-75% of the player base is not interested in raids, regardless of difficulty. Nope. >First, that only tells me they didn't care enough to learn about the easier encounters. Sure, *they* are the weird ones for wanting to do the first raid first. >People were asking for hard content and Raids way before there was even a inkling about Legendary Armor. People (me included) were stoked and happy for raids before we knew that Legendary Armor was its reward. That's a great attitude to have! People nowadays are screaming bloody murder at the idea that maybe they should share Envoy armor with anyone else, and saying it would make the entire game mode worthless to them, so it's nice to hear that someone actually *enjoys* the raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > >No. Legendary weapons are still very niche. You need something for the greater masses. Something like a normal armor or weapon. Oh wait that exist. And also things that reward long term players. Looks like a good system. > > > > > > Legendary armor is more niche than legendary weapons. I'm really not sure what you're talking about. > > In this case you can't currently have the one without the other. If you can tell me how to get Envoy skins without purple armor, I'm all ears. > > >Yeah and this time you are in the crowd that can't be happy. Maybe it is time to accept it. > > No, I can be made happy, it would be relatively simple to achieve, they just haven't done the things to get there yet. > > >I never said that and stop quoting things out of context to fit your argumention. I actually understand that unique rewards in game modes are actually healthy for those game modes. I can accept that I don't get all rewards. > > Ok, and that's fine, for you, but not everyone is a quitter. > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > Call me old-fashioned, but I always thought that the main-reward in playing games should be the gaming-experience itself. > > Definitely agreed, which is why I don't raid, but getting the loot is nice too. > > >Sure, legendary armor is also a reason for doing raids, but I mainly want to do them because the majority of open-world-content is just braindead running around and I need something that's engaging. > > And that's great, because if you'll read any thread on the subject, nobody is talking about removing or reducing that gameplay experience in any way. The goal is to *add* a *new* gameplay experience that is similar, but more to the tastes of a wider audience. The Legendary armor part of the discussion only came up because fans of the *current* raid were insisting that this new mode could *never* gain access to it. > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > It sounds to me like you have little to no PVP experience. > > That may be true. I basically did just enough to get The Ascension and then haven't really played since. I really hated the entire experience, which is why I don't intend to go through it again "just to get Legendary armor" in raids. > > >The difference is not simply "hitting the ranked button instead of unranked". In ranked matches people have lot higher expectations and it is more stress involving if you want good placements. > > Not really. I mean, if you just play casually then you tend to end up on teams that also play pretty casually *against* teams that also play pretty casually. You might get some jerk in the mix that's shouting at everyone, but so long as you make an effort you'll do fine. I can't imagine playing in unranked any worse than I'd play in ranked. I'll never be a "top 100 pro" PvPer, but I was plenty good to get the job done. > > >Why should it not have to take skill to get the envoy armor which was meant to be for endgame players? > > That's what I'm looking for, for it to take no more skill to earn Envoy armor than it takes to earn The Ascension, in a more casual version of the raids. > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > >Which makes it reasonable to conclude that ~70-75% of the player base is not interested in raids, regardless of difficulty. > > Nope. > > >First, that only tells me they didn't care enough to learn about the easier encounters. > > Sure, *they* are the weird ones for wanting to do the first raid first. > > >People were asking for hard content and Raids way before there was even a inkling about Legendary Armor. People (me included) were stoked and happy for raids before we knew that Legendary Armor was its reward. > > That's a great attitude to have! People nowadays are screaming bloody murder at the idea that maybe they should share Envoy armor with anyone else, and saying it would make the entire game mode worthless to them, so it's nice to hear that someone actually *enjoys* the raids. > > So how would you give Envoy armor to the easy-content-players? Here's an idea. **Envoy Armor II: The Refined Armor** 1 - Kill Vale Guardian 50 times on Easy mode. 2 - Go through Spirit Woods 75 times on Easy mode. 3 - Kill Gorseval The Multifarious 25 times on Easy mode. 4 - Kill Sabetha 25 times on Easy mode. 5 - Kill Slothasor 25 times on Easy mode. 6 - Go through the Bandit Camp 75 times on Easy mode. 7 - Kill Matthias Gabrel 25 times on Easy mode. 8 - Escort Scholar Glenna through the courtyard 75 times on Easy mode. 9 - Kill Keep Construct 50 times on Easy mode. 10 - Pass through the Twisted Castle 25 times on Easy mode. 11 - Kill Xera 25 times on Easy mode. 12 - Kill Cairn the Indomitable 50 times on Easy mode. 13 - Kill Mursaat Overseer 75 times on Easy mode. 14 - Kill Samarog 50 times on Easy mode. 15 - Kill Deimos 25 times on Easy mode. 16 - Kill Soulless Horror 25 times on Easy mode. 17 - Go through River of Souls 25 times on Easy mode. 18 - Activate all Statues of Grenth 25 times on Easy mode. 19 - Kill Dhuum 10 times on Easy mode. This is how I'd implement the Easy mode Envoy Armor. It will also be less shiny and detailed than the real Envoy armor. On Easy mode, you'd need to kill each boss 3 times to get a Legendary Insight, and the max Decoration Fragments that can be earned from an Easy mode raid would be 3. Sounds fair? Because it absolutely does to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > So how would you give Envoy armor to the easy-content-players? Here's an idea. >Envoy Armor II: The Refined Armor >1 - Kill Vale Guardian 50 times on Easy mode. > . . . This all sounds fine, in principle. The numbers seem a bit high if it remains on a weekly lock-out, since it would take at minimum a year and a half of constant play to complete, but better than nothing. If it were implemented in this fashion it would be better if they didn't have weekly lockouts so that you could complete some of these in fewer weeks through more reps per week. I think probably 25 per boss would be enough though. >This is how I'd implement the Easy mode Envoy Armor. It will also be less shiny and detailed than the real Envoy armor. This part just seems petty. >On Easy mode, you'd need to kill each boss 3 times to get a Legendary Insight, and the max Decoration Fragments that can be earned from an Easy mode raid would be 3. Sounds fair? Yeah, that's fine. You've required around 700 kills total, so that would be 233 Li anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > So how would you give Envoy armor to the easy-content-players? Here's an idea. > > >Envoy Armor II: The Refined Armor > >1 - Kill Vale Guardian 50 times on Easy mode. > > . . . > > This all sounds fine, in principle. The numbers seem a bit high if it remains on a weekly lock-out, since it would take at minimum a year and a half of constant play to complete, but better than nothing. If it were implemented in this fashion it would be better if they didn't have weekly lockouts so that you could complete some of these in fewer weeks through more reps per week. I think probably 25 per boss would be enough though. > > >This is how I'd implement the Easy mode Envoy Armor. It will also be less shiny and detailed than the real Envoy armor. > > This part just seems petty. > > >On Easy mode, you'd need to kill each boss 3 times to get a Legendary Insight, and the max Decoration Fragments that can be earned from an Easy mode raid would be 3. Sounds fair? > > Yeah, that's fine. You've required around 700 kills total, so that would be 233 Li anyway. > > > Do not bother Imperadordf, Ohoni wants the full, shiny, FX legendary armor as reward for easy mode raids and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerioth.7062 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > So how would you give Envoy armor to the easy-content-players? Here's an idea. > > >Envoy Armor II: The Refined Armor > >1 - Kill Vale Guardian 50 times on Easy mode. > > . . . > > This all sounds fine, in principle. The numbers seem a bit high if it remains on a weekly lock-out, since it would take at minimum a year and a half of constant play to complete, but better than nothing. If it were implemented in this fashion it would be better if they didn't have weekly lockouts so that you could complete some of these in fewer weeks through more reps per week. I think probably 25 per boss would be enough though. > > >This is how I'd implement the Easy mode Envoy Armor. It will also be less shiny and detailed than the real Envoy armor. > > This part just seems petty. > > >On Easy mode, you'd need to kill each boss 3 times to get a Legendary Insight, and the max Decoration Fragments that can be earned from an Easy mode raid would be 3. Sounds fair? > > Yeah, that's fine. You've required around 700 kills total, so that would be 233 Li anyway. > > > If people in PVP and WvW get less shinier armors for less effort, then easy mode raids will get the excact same treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 I said i wouldn't do this but at this point i'm questioning if you're honest or just trolling, and in case of the first, you seem to be working under weird assumptions. > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > >Which makes it reasonable to conclude that ~70-75% of the player base is not interested in raids, regardless of difficulty. > > Nope. Nice counter-argument. Heavily sustained with equal arguments to mine. Ok, quick run-down of how Statistics work, and how most knowledge about large groups is gleaned in science: Basically a scientist looks at the group he wants to study (in this case GW2 players), then he grabs randomly a smaller group from within that group, with a good enough size so that he's sure to not have picked all like individuals, and then he grabs data from that group, and since he's confident in that group's size and representativity, he extrapolates to the general population he's studying. In my case i'm using the data gathered in GW2 Efficiency as my sample, it gathers data directly from 187k gw2 accounts through the API, so it's data fed from the client to their database, which means its factual data, and representative of the registered individuals. How big and representative is the sample? Arena Net boasted 11 million registered accounts at PoF launch, so i'll use that number, although active main accounts will probably be half or less than half of that. Now for a population of 11 million, a confidence level of 99% and a sample size of 187k, you'll get a Confidence interval of ~0.26% in our case where 25% have one LI. That means that there's a 99% probability that between 24.76% and 25.26% of the actual player population have one Li on their accounts. As for how representative, it is, looking at most data and since it's divided in intervals of player hours it seems cogent with my experience of the game. Also you can attest to its accuracy by comparing with polls in the forums that polled for active raiders and obtained similar results. So i'm confident in GW2 Efficiency's data as a good sample for the game's population. Now, as for your counter-argument. I'll change my number, i dived a bit deeper, and i checked for Magnetite Shards (which you get when you fail a boss), and around 45% of players have at least one, BUT that's for the ENTIRE POPULATION. The more veteran a player is the higher the percentage of them with either Li and Magnetite. Anyway, looking at the magnetite shards and LI's you can conclude that around 45% of players have attempted Raids, and 55% of people that attempted Raids has concluded at least one encounter (has LI). There's also a issue that skews these numbers greatly... 80% of players with over 4000h of game time have attempted Raids, but those players are only 20% of the population. More significant of how it's unlikely that the majority will ever be even interested in Raids, 50% of players play LESS than one hour a day in average. I barely have enough time to Raid, and my average is still over 2 hours, (that's of course skewed by when i could play 4-6 hours a day a few years back, or when i'm on vacays), but still. > > >First, that only tells me they didn't care enough to learn about the easier encounters. > > Sure, *they* are the weird ones for wanting to do the first raid first. > No, i also started with the first one, but seeing that we were failing we switched to escort to at least get a win, and then got back to attempting VG. > >People were asking for hard content and Raids way before there was even a inkling about Legendary Armor. People (me included) were stoked and happy for raids before we knew that Legendary Armor was its reward. > > That's a great attitude to have! People nowadays are screaming bloody murder at the idea that maybe they should share Envoy armor with anyone else, and saying it would make the entire game mode worthless to them, so it's nice to hear that someone actually *enjoys* the raids. > No, they're not crying bloody murder for having "to share" their armor, because you can "share" it anytime, just do Raids. What they don't want is to have the same stuff they had to work hard for being cheapened. If all of a sudden Legendary Weapons full formed would start dropping from World bosses, people who already worked hard to get them would feel cheated. That's the same reason why they made Grandmaster tokens, because people were feeling cheated that their hard-won Ascended armor and weapons were now being sold cheaply and easily in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC.4521 Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 Maybe after easy mode raids, anet can make easy mode automated tournament for pvp. I want those gizmos and rewards but too hard to find group because my pvp skill is bad. Maybe let people to fight bot in easy mode. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: >In my case i'm using the data gathered in GW2 Efficiency as my sample, it gathers data directly from 187k gw2 accounts through the API, so it's data fed from the client to their database, which means its factual data, and representative of the registered individuals. I'ma stop you right there, because scientists would not use Efficiency as a data source, since it's opt-in data, and therefore not a representative sample of the total game population. Basically it skews heavily towards achiever-types and min-maxers. >Also you can attest to its accuracy by comparing with polls in the forums that polled for active raiders and obtained similar results. What do Efficiency and forums have in common? If you guessed "self selection bias," you'd be right. It's like saying you're backing up the data from a Twitter poll with a Facebook poll. >Now, as for your counter-argument. I'll change my number, i dived a bit deeper, and i checked for Magnetite Shards (which you get when you fail a boss), and around 45% of players have at least one, BUT that's for the ENTIRE POPULATION. I'm one of those, keep that in mind. I currently have 38, which puts me at better than 68% of the Efficiency population, for whatever that's worth. >More significant of how it's unlikely that the majority will ever be even interested in Raids, 50% of players play LESS than one hour a day in average. I barely have enough time to Raid, and my average is still over 2 hours, (that's of course skewed by when i could play 4-6 hours a day a few years back, or when i'm on vacays), but still. It's important to keep in mind that "people who *have* tried raids" should not be conflated with "people who *would* try an *easy mode* raid." Plenty of people get turned off because of "common knowledge" of what a raid is, they know that it's meant to be "challenging content," that you're meant to do hours of "training runs" before you can expect to clear it, that if you don't bring a "meta build" with "meta gear" then you're likely going to be a burden on the group, and while there are certainly exceptions to every one of those "rules," people understand that those expectations represent the median experience, and will just avoid the content if they aren't into that sort of thing. Present them with a version of the raids that has none of those elements, that they know going in is meant to be comfortable to the casual player, and I guarantee you that you would pick up players above and beyond the "people who tried, but didn't stick with the current raids," *plus* you would pick up a lot of the "dabbled in raids, but didn't stick with it" crowd too. It would almost certainly at least double the amount of people participating in the raids. >No, i also started with the first one, but seeing that we were failing we switched to escort to at least get a win, and then got back to attempting VG. Plenty of other people wouldn't consider such a thing. They would do them in order, or not at all. It'd be like watching Firefly episodes out of order, what kind of mess would that be? Who does that? >If all of a sudden Legendary Weapons full formed would start dropping from World bosses, people who already worked hard to get them would feel cheated. That's not what we're talking about here though. And personally, as someone who has earned two "the right way," I would be fine with them dropping, although I don't think that would be the *best* course of action. > @"BillC.4521" said: > Maybe after easy mode raids, anet can make easy mode automated tournament for pvp. I want those gizmos and rewards but too hard to find group because my pvp skill is bad. Maybe let people to fight bot in easy mode. :) It would probably increase PvP participation significantly. The worst part about sPvP is the other players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > > So how would you give Envoy armor to the easy-content-players? Here's an idea. > > > > >Envoy Armor II: The Refined Armor > > >1 - Kill Vale Guardian 50 times on Easy mode. > > > . . . > > > > This all sounds fine, in principle. The numbers seem a bit high if it remains on a weekly lock-out, since it would take at minimum a year and a half of constant play to complete, but better than nothing. If it were implemented in this fashion it would be better if they didn't have weekly lockouts so that you could complete some of these in fewer weeks through more reps per week. I think probably 25 per boss would be enough though. > > > > >This is how I'd implement the Easy mode Envoy Armor. It will also be less shiny and detailed than the real Envoy armor. > > > > This part just seems petty. > > > > >On Easy mode, you'd need to kill each boss 3 times to get a Legendary Insight, and the max Decoration Fragments that can be earned from an Easy mode raid would be 3. Sounds fair? > > > > Yeah, that's fine. You've required around 700 kills total, so that would be 233 Li anyway. > > > > > > > > If people in PVP and WvW get less shinier armors for less effort, then easy mode raids will get the excact same treatment. Rest assured, people asked for WXP to be available for purchase form the gemstore when the 2k WvW armor skins came out. I wouldnt be surprised if they ask for easier ways of getting anything in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > >I never said that and stop quoting things out of context to fit your argumention. I actually understand that unique rewards in game modes are actually healthy for those game modes. I can accept that I don't get all rewards. > > Ok, and that's fine, for you, but not everyone is a quitter. > Yeah and not everyone lives in a parallel world either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > >In my case i'm using the data gathered in GW2 Efficiency as my sample, it gathers data directly from 187k gw2 accounts through the API, so it's data fed from the client to their database, which means its factual data, and representative of the registered individuals. > > I'ma stop you right there, because scientists would not use Efficiency as a data source, since it's opt-in data, and therefore not a representative sample of the total game population. Basically it skews heavily towards achiever-types and min-maxers. > Yes, and you know what else is opt-in? ALL STATISTICAL SURVEYS THEY CONDUCT! From voting trends to just about every life-style statistic. You obviously don't understand statistics... It doesn't skew towards min-maxers at all since if you look at their data you see it's actually the opposite. > >Also you can attest to its accuracy by comparing with polls in the forums that polled for active raiders and obtained similar results. > > What do Efficiency and forums have in common? If you guessed "self selection bias," you'd be right. It's like saying you're backing up the data from a Twitter poll with a Facebook poll. Self confirmation bias doesn't mean what you think it means. > > >Now, as for your counter-argument. I'll change my number, i dived a bit deeper, and i checked for Magnetite Shards (which you get when you fail a boss), and around 45% of players have at least one, BUT that's for the ENTIRE POPULATION. > > I'm one of those, keep that in mind. I currently have 38, which puts me at better than 68% of the Efficiency population, for whatever that's worth. > Good for you? > >More significant of how it's unlikely that the majority will ever be even interested in Raids, 50% of players play LESS than one hour a day in average. I barely have enough time to Raid, and my average is still over 2 hours, (that's of course skewed by when i could play 4-6 hours a day a few years back, or when i'm on vacays), but still. > > It's important to keep in mind that "people who *have* tried raids" should not be conflated with "people who *would* try an *easy mode* raid." Plenty of people get turned off because of "common knowledge" of what a raid is, they know that it's meant to be "challenging content," that you're meant to do hours of "training runs" before you can expect to clear it, that if you don't bring a "meta build" with "meta gear" then you're likely going to be a burden on the group, and while there are certainly exceptions to every one of those "rules," people understand that those expectations represent the median experience, and will just avoid the content if they aren't into that sort of thing. > Since, like i've demonstrated there **already exist** easy mode raids. There you go, the "common knowledge" is a prejudiced and falacial version of the truth. You have to do "training runs" of every instanced content. No inexperienced group ever started an explorable dungeon or fractal and succeeded first try. Everything you said about "common knowledge" for Raids is applicable to Fractals, Dungeons, sPVP and WvW, basically it applies to **ALL** endgame content. If you don't know what you're doing, if you don't have a decent build, you'll be a burden to the group. Raids, due to Enrage Timers and the inability to Ress people, simply make the under-performing stand out more. > Present them with a version of the raids that has none of those elements, that they know going in is meant to be comfortable to the casual player, and I guarantee you that you would pick up players above and beyond the "people who tried, but didn't stick with the current raids," *plus* you would pick up a lot of the "dabbled in raids, but didn't stick with it" crowd too. It would almost certainly at least double the amount of people participating in the raids. > Or not. And even if it was true, the purpose of raids would be entirely lost. They were built to be the hard end-game content that requires that extra effort to clear, all your complaints are just demonstrating that they are working as intended. > >No, i also started with the first one, but seeing that we were failing we switched to escort to at least get a win, and then got back to attempting VG. > > Plenty of other people wouldn't consider such a thing. They would do them in order, or not at all. It'd be like watching Firefly episodes out of order, what kind of mess would that be? > > Who does that? > Fox? If you want raids for the story, there's a NPC in bloodstone fen that summarizes it perfectly. > >If all of a sudden Legendary Weapons full formed would start dropping from World bosses, people who already worked hard to get them would feel cheated. > > That's not what we're talking about here though. Yes it is, that's **EXACTLY** what we're talking about here. We're talking about people who had to learn raids, do them before there were weavers and firebrands, and get enough Li and complete achievements to get their Armor, and now people like you are saying they should be entitled to have the same reward with less effort. You're already benefiting from their work in figuring out the strategies of how to complete the content, and yet unsatisfied with that, you still want to cheese their content further because you can't be bothered to put in the hours like they did. > > And personally, as someone who has earned two "the right way," I would be fine with them dropping, although I don't think that would be the *best* course of action. > Whoo, two legendaries... Yeah you seem like the type that wouldn't be creating constant walls of text complaining how the other guy has it better than you... > > @"BillC.4521" said: > > Maybe after easy mode raids, anet can make easy mode automated tournament for pvp. I want those gizmos and rewards but too hard to find group because my pvp skill is bad. Maybe let people to fight bot in easy mode. :) > > It would probably increase PvP participation significantly. The worst part about sPvP is the other players. Again can't tell if troll or if the point just blew past you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 Ohoni has been on a crusade to create easy mode raids for a very long time. I don't even raid and i can tell you how much of a terrible idea that would be. You can tell in order to remain logically 'consistent' he formulated this incredible belief system of not believing in exclusive rewards for completing content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > That’s why I think the implementation of Fractal Legendary Armor would supplement this demand. Challenging instance content, but with five players. Maybe for those that don’t like raids but prefer fractals. As i mentioned in that other thread, Anet would amost certainly require CMs for it, which would mean that it would end up in the hands of pretty much the same people that do raids already. > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > There was a post by Gaile Gray stating that it is actually a lot of work to make such a change. If it's the post i think about, then it didn't actually say that at all. It merely cautioned against assuming something would be easy. Mind you, that warning would also work for assuming that something would take _a lot_ of work. I don't remember any developer post that said anything more specific about the effort those changes might require. I'm pretty sure, that if there _was_ such a post, it would get quoted to me or Ohoni many times over already. > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > It sounds to me like you have little to no PVP experience. The difference is not simply "hitting the ranked button instead of unranked". In ranked matches people have lot higher expectations and it is more stress involving if you want good placements. You are of course right, that it's different for many people. Notice though, that if you don't actually care that much about those expectations and placement, then ranked is in no way different than unranked for you. And if you do care, you are almost certainly playing ranked already. > If you are there just for the legendary goodies and stick with bronze, you can be stuck in losing matches which means less rewards and slower progress towards your legendaries Indeed, but you would still progress it. > not to mention that for The Ascension you **need** to win in ranked matches on several different classes - that is only faster than getting legendary armor if you are actually a skilled PVPer. Remember, if you aren't all that good, you will be low in the ratings, and thus you will be getting equally bad opponents. It may actually be easier to score wins there than higher up where you run the danger of getting queued agains some top players that get matched against weaker teams because their number is so small the matchmaker simply cannot prepare good enough enemies for them. > It takes skill to get The Ascension. Why should it not have to take skill to get the envoy armor which was meant to be for endgame players? I'd be perfectly fine if the Envoy armor required only as much skill to get as Ascension did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: >Yes, and you know what else is opt-in? ALL STATISTICAL SURVEYS THEY CONDUCT! From voting trends to just about every life-style statistic. You obviously don't understand statistics... That isn't remotely true. self-selecting surveys are complete junk. Obviously people have to agree to participate in them, but for them to have any validity, the surveyor has to come *to them,* to pick them from a random representative sampling, not to allow them to come to the surveyor. If you do a political survey at a party convention, for example, you aren'y likely to get a solid picture of the views of the people in general, or even of people within that party. >It doesn't skew towards min-maxers at all since if you look at their data you see it's actually the opposite. It skews towards min-maxers by its vary nature. Casual players don't even know Efficiency exists. If the data you're looking at shows a low level of min-maxers, then that only means that the reality is *even more* against them. >Self confirmation bias doesn't mean what you think it means. Which is why *I* said "self-*selection* bias, which *does* mean what I think it means. >Since, like i've demonstrated there already exist easy mode raids. Not of the type being discussed. "Some encounters in the middle of the sequence being easier than others" is not the same thing as "casually puggable versions of ALL raids, start to finish." >There you go, the "common knowledge" is a prejudiced and falacial version of the truth. You have to do "training runs" of every instanced content. No inexperienced group ever started an explorable dungeon or fractal and succeeded first try. I've done it every single time. I've never done a "training run" of a dungeon or Fractal, and yet have cleared many of them. I have no idea what you're talking about. >If you don't know what you're doing, if you don't have a decent build, you'll be a burden to the group. Raids, due to Enrage Timers and the inability to Ress people, simply make the under-performing stand out more. Other content has more of a safety-net, it's easier to pick up the skills and perform them either through visual learning or quick chat commands, and even players that start out a burden can become useful very quickly. You never have dungeon runs that involve players spending several hours attempting the same boss and never completing it. >Or not. And even if it was true, the purpose of raids would be entirely lost. They were built to be the hard end-game content that requires that extra effort to clear, all your complaints are just demonstrating that they are working as intended. Again, the existing raids would continue to serve that function. The easy mode versions would be something else, and serve a different function, for different players. That element has nothing to do with the version you like, which would remain intact. > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > You can tell in order to remain logically 'consistent' he formulated this incredible belief system of not believing in exclusive rewards for completing content. Fun fact, my position on the issue long predates raids in GW2. It actually long predates GW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Yeah, lets argue that gw2efficiency isnt an accurate representation and then apply an arbitrary bias to it to prove the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > If it's the post i think about, then it didn't actually say that at all. It merely cautioned against assuming something would be easy. Mind you, that warning would also work for assuming that something would take _a lot_ of work. > What about this post: It's about "Hard Mode" not being easy to implement, it could rather easily apply to an "Easy Mode" too, or any kind of new mode in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > If it's the post i think about, then it didn't actually say that at all. It merely cautioned against assuming something would be easy. Mind you, that warning would also work for assuming that something would take _a lot_ of work. > > > > What about this post: > It's about "Hard Mode" not being easy to implement, it could rather easily apply to an "Easy Mode" too, or any kind of new mode in general. That's a lot more concrete, although it deals with CMs (that generally are about a bit bigger mechanic changes than what i'd envision for easy mode in most cases). Still, the main point from that post i got was that the real problem was conceptual - how to do that while having minimal negative impact on raid community. Notice, that hard mode creates a bigger danger here, as it doesn't really _add_ new players, it just splits community, and (which makes it worse) it does that by depleting population of the _entry_ level mode. It is a danger, because it deprives the normal mode of veteran players, that are mostly necessary to help introduce new players to the content. Easy mode would not do that, because it would not _need_ those veterans. Still, it _is_ an argument that the required workload can't really be ignored. How big it would be, and whether it would be _too_ big remains a question, of course (notice, that it's apparently not so big they would completely abandon the idea, they are actually considering this and looking for the best way to implement it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptAurellian.9537 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > And that, in a nutshell, is why GW2 survived while other MMOs died. That is why GW2 is GW2, and not Wildstar. > > > > > > GW2 survived, while Wildstart died, not because of difficulty of content (which wildstar isn't anywhere near hardcore) but because wildstar was a 2008 game (graphics-wise) launched in 2013 with a 2004 subscription model. > > > The only reason why ESO didn't end up in the same ditch is that ESO has a bit more modern graphics and engine, and has the Elder Scrolls franchise to give it name recognition. > > > That's the only thing that keeps Warcraft and FFXIV alive with a subscription model, it's the brand name. > > > Wildstar didn't have a brand behind it and still tried going the subscription model, that's what killed it. Had it gone F2P from the start they would have a way larger community and a better game by now. > > Don't forget all the other mistakes Wildstar made - dreary leveling after the first character, some serious bugs, the probably worst item system of the 2000s, doubling raid size from the first to the second raid and, at least here in Europe, incredibly frustrating connectivity issues. I'm sure I've forgotten something important. So I strongly agree - WS did not die due to its difficulty, it died due to numerous stupid and avoidable mistakes. The potential was there, the execution was bad. > > I never tried to level past the first character, didn't know it was different ^_^ > Wildstar had a nice collection of social elements, the housing and the social professions were a nice change of pace, the rest was more of the same, and it didn't feel like a MMO released in 2013. Oh, must have missed this in the avalanche of other ... stuff. The problem is, leveling was _not_ different after the first character. It was exactly the same shit as before, because there were no alternative areas for a given level range. I thought my second character would be easier than the first, because I could optimise a lot of things I didn't know before - instead, it was a pain because I'd already seen everything. That's something GW2 does right, several areas for each level range. With regard to the other stuff, housing was done well (though I don't care for it), but the social professions were inconsequential and totally unbalanced at the same time. I wouldn't say it didn't feel like a 2014 MMO, but they simply made a crapton of mistakes that should have been easily avoidable. Still, hardly related to difficulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > And that, in a nutshell, is why GW2 survived while other MMOs died. That is why GW2 is GW2, and not Wildstar. > > > > > > > > GW2 survived, while Wildstart died, not because of difficulty of content (which wildstar isn't anywhere near hardcore) but because wildstar was a 2008 game (graphics-wise) launched in 2013 with a 2004 subscription model. > > > > The only reason why ESO didn't end up in the same ditch is that ESO has a bit more modern graphics and engine, and has the Elder Scrolls franchise to give it name recognition. > > > > That's the only thing that keeps Warcraft and FFXIV alive with a subscription model, it's the brand name. > > > > Wildstar didn't have a brand behind it and still tried going the subscription model, that's what killed it. Had it gone F2P from the start they would have a way larger community and a better game by now. > > > Don't forget all the other mistakes Wildstar made - dreary leveling after the first character, some serious bugs, the probably worst item system of the 2000s, doubling raid size from the first to the second raid and, at least here in Europe, incredibly frustrating connectivity issues. I'm sure I've forgotten something important. So I strongly agree - WS did not die due to its difficulty, it died due to numerous stupid and avoidable mistakes. The potential was there, the execution was bad. > > > > I never tried to level past the first character, didn't know it was different ^_^ > > Wildstar had a nice collection of social elements, the housing and the social professions were a nice change of pace, the rest was more of the same, and it didn't feel like a MMO released in 2013. > > Oh, must have missed this in the avalanche of other ... stuff. The problem is, leveling was _not_ different after the first character. It was exactly the same kitten as before, because there were no alternative areas for a given level range. I thought my second character would be easier than the first, because I could optimise a lot of things I didn't know before - instead, it was a pain because I'd already seen everything. That's something GW2 does right, several areas for each level range. With regard to the other stuff, housing was done well (though I don't care for it), but the social professions were inconsequential and totally unbalanced at the same time. I wouldn't say it didn't feel like a 2014 MMO, but they simply made a crapton of mistakes that should have been easily avoidable. Still, hardly related to difficulty. Kinda off-topic, but: In that regard GW2 is more of the exception though, the majority of MMORPGs (especially older ones) usually have that same problem, it's actually very rare for games to have such a variety of starter areas as GW2 has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptAurellian.9537 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > In that regard GW2 is more of the exception though, the majority of MMORPGs (especially older ones) usually have that same problem, it's actually very rare for games to have such a variety of starter areas as GW2 has. Maybe. WoW, at least in classic, also had large parts of non-linear leveling areas with some variety. The two addon leveling phases I played were just too short to notice. Haven't had the time/interest to play so many other MMOs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > If it's the post i think about, then it didn't actually say that at all. It merely cautioned against assuming something would be easy. Mind you, that warning would also work for assuming that something would take _a lot_ of work. > > > > What about this post: > It's about "Hard Mode" not being easy to implement, it could rather easily apply to an "Easy Mode" too, or any kind of new mode in general. We all agree that hard modes are MUCH harder to implement than easy modes. It's not that "new mode" is hard, it's that the *content* of that new mode is hard. If the new mode contains entirely new mechanics that need to be carefully balanced to present a more challenging, but not broken experience, that is a lot of hard work. Just tweaking a few numbers down to make it *less* hard, while it may not be completely trivial, is at least a much simpler process for all involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > If it's the post i think about, then it didn't actually say that at all. It merely cautioned against assuming something would be easy. Mind you, that warning would also work for assuming that something would take _a lot_ of work. > > > > > > > What about this post: > > It's about "Hard Mode" not being easy to implement, it could rather easily apply to an "Easy Mode" too, or any kind of new mode in general. > > We all agree that hard modes are MUCH harder to implement than easy modes. Please refrain from speaking on behalf of everyone. I agree to no such thing. The work needed for either is in the same ballpark without major differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > If it's the post i think about, then it didn't actually say that at all. It merely cautioned against assuming something would be easy. Mind you, that warning would also work for assuming that something would take _a lot_ of work. > > > > > > > What about this post: > > It's about "Hard Mode" not being easy to implement, it could rather easily apply to an "Easy Mode" too, or any kind of new mode in general. > > We all agree that hard modes are MUCH harder to implement than easy modes. It's not that "new mode" is hard, it's that the *content* of that new mode is hard. If the new mode contains entirely new mechanics that need to be carefully balanced to present a more challenging, but not broken experience, that is a lot of hard work. Just tweaking a few numbers down to make it *less* hard, while it may not be completely trivial, is at least a much simpler process for all involved. > > No. That's a flat lie. Hard modes are as hard to implement as easy modes and take around the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > If it's the post i think about, then it didn't actually say that at all. It merely cautioned against assuming something would be easy. Mind you, that warning would also work for assuming that something would take _a lot_ of work. > > > > > > > > > > What about this post: > > > It's about "Hard Mode" not being easy to implement, it could rather easily apply to an "Easy Mode" too, or any kind of new mode in general. > > > > We all agree that hard modes are MUCH harder to implement than easy modes. > > Please refrain from speaking on behalf of everyone. I agree to no such thing. The work needed for either is in the same ballpark without major differences. Really? How can you believe that to be true? > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > If it's the post i think about, then it didn't actually say that at all. It merely cautioned against assuming something would be easy. Mind you, that warning would also work for assuming that something would take _a lot_ of work. > > > > > > > > > > What about this post: > > > It's about "Hard Mode" not being easy to implement, it could rather easily apply to an "Easy Mode" too, or any kind of new mode in general. > > > > We all agree that hard modes are MUCH harder to implement than easy modes. It's not that "new mode" is hard, it's that the *content* of that new mode is hard. If the new mode contains entirely new mechanics that need to be carefully balanced to present a more challenging, but not broken experience, that is a lot of hard work. Just tweaking a few numbers down to make it *less* hard, while it may not be completely trivial, is at least a much simpler process for all involved. > > > > > > No. That's a flat lie. Hard modes are as hard to implement as easy modes and take around the same time. Based on what? You guys are genuinely confusing me on this one, I do not understand how someone could *honestly* claim that position. It flies in the face of all common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > If it's the post i think about, then it didn't actually say that at all. It merely cautioned against assuming something would be easy. Mind you, that warning would also work for assuming that something would take _a lot_ of work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about this post: > > > > It's about "Hard Mode" not being easy to implement, it could rather easily apply to an "Easy Mode" too, or any kind of new mode in general. > > > > > > We all agree that hard modes are MUCH harder to implement than easy modes. > > > > Please refrain from speaking on behalf of everyone. I agree to no such thing. The work needed for either is in the same ballpark without major differences. > > Really? How can you believe that to be true? Experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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