Please Overhaul Raids.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > I don't think it matters whether it is or not. My concern is that players who want to raid at a more casual level have options to do so.

> > >

> >

> > And my concern is that the amount of players that applies to is very small, even smaller than the raiding population.

> is it? Wouldn't that depend a lot on how easy the easy mode would be?

 

I'm the one asking for specifics on how this easy mode would be like so we can figure all these out but some want to abstract it all

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> Easy modes need a extremly careful balance between difficulty and rewards. Easy content is hit or miss. Either people play it for rewards afterwards or one time for the experience. We have enough overrewarding content already.

 

No, it doesn't. Whatever the rewards are, it will kitten off the "exclusivity" community, so they can't even bother to consider that crowd, and as for everyone else, something is better than nothing, so I fully expect them to err on the side of "not rewarding enough," and that's fine, so long as it allows a path forward.

 

Also, if they do undershoot on rewards, and people don't play it, then so what? They just up the rewards a little bit. A mistake is only a problem if you never correct it. This is easier to raise than it is to lower, but they can get it right without having to agonize over it in advance.

 

And again, the same applies to Hard mode, if they did make one, it would need to balance rewards as well to get people to play it consistently, and it could be even more of an issue there since the rewards offered would be many times what easy mode would offer, and the players would be much more picky about it, since they already have a mode that they can enjoy. So again, however hard it is to make easy mode, hard mode is considerably more.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > I don't agree, but what if that were true? If the small population that raids is enough to justify the significant efforts that went into creating the raids and all that goes with them, then why wouldn't even a smaller population justify producing an easy mode that would take a fraction of the total effort?

>

> You should read this:

>

>

> Splintering the community is a huge issue.

 

?It is, which is why hard mode is a bigger concern, since it would split off the existing raid community, whereas easy mode is designed to draw in players from outside it. But if easy mode does draw in players from hard mode, then those players never belonged to hard mode in the first place, so it's a net win for the game.

 

> More importantly, this phrase:

> > Two different play modes will send all of the "elite" players to CM, leaving "normal" mode as less desirable.

>

> I'm sure you can easily adapt this to an easy mode instead.

 

Except that, again, ALL hard mode players would pull from the normal mode pool, whereas *many* easy mode players would pull from the "non-raiders" pool, and some might eventually shift up to full raids. Much lower risk of fragmentation.

 

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > I don't think it matters whether it is or not. My concern is that players who want to raid at a more casual level have options to do so.

> > > >

> > >

> > > And my concern is that the amount of players that applies to is very small, even smaller than the raiding population.

> > is it? Wouldn't that depend a lot on how easy the easy mode would be?

> No. It first depends on the players left that don't play raids and and play instanced content in general. It doesn't matter how easy it gets if people don't play instances at all.

 

It's important to keep in mind that the audience for easy mode raids don't necessarily *have* to be playing other instanced content right now, or even have significant past experience with it. Different content appeals to different players.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> ?It is, which is why hard mode is a bigger concern, since it would split off the existing raid community, whereas easy mode is designed to draw in players from outside it. But if easy mode does draw in players from hard mode, then those players never belonged to hard mode in the first place, so it's a net win for the game.

>

 

I hope you don't believe that, that the easy mode will draw players from outside of it alone.

 

> It's important to keep in mind that the audience for easy mode raids don't necessarily *have* to be playing other instanced content right now, or even have significant past experience with it. Different content appeals to different players.

>

 

And here is where you are wrong. I don't see any reason why a player that doesn't play instanced content at all, to suddenly come play the instanced content of Raids.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > ?It is, which is why hard mode is a bigger concern, since it would split off the existing raid community, whereas easy mode is designed to draw in players from outside it. But if easy mode does draw in players from hard mode, then those players never belonged to hard mode in the first place, so it's a net win for the game.

> >

>

> I hope you don't believe that, that the easy mode will draw players from outside of it alone.

 

I said it would draw from both, whereas hard mode would only draw from existing raiders. Also, that any players it *did* draw from normal mode, were never normal mode's to own in the first place, and everyone is better off that they're happier in easy mode.

 

> > It's important to keep in mind that the audience for easy mode raids don't necessarily *have* to be playing other instanced content right now, or even have significant past experience with it. Different content appeals to different players.

> >

>

> And here is where you are wrong. I don't see any reason why a player that doesn't play instanced content at all, to suddenly come play the instanced content of Raids.

 

That's too bad, but it doesn't make it untrue.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I said it would draw from both, whereas hard mode would only draw from existing raiders. Also, that any players it *did* draw from normal mode, were never normal mode's to own in the first place, and everyone is better off that they're happier in easy mode.

>

 

Happier isn't the word I'd use, more like drawn to the easier acquisition of the same rewards. Happiness or which mode is for any player is a sad afterthought. Or you are saying all those players running SW CF are doing because that content is what they find the most fun?

[Voltekka.2375]

Uhm... AC and TA were run more than other dungeons for monk runes (all meta heal builds require them) and nightmare runes (condi meta builds require/required them), maybe thats why they are seen being run more often at gw2efficiency

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> Uhm... AC and TA were run more than other dungeons for monk runes (all meta heal builds require them) and nightmare runes (condi meta builds require/required them), maybe thats why they are seen being run more often at gw2efficiency

 

This is probably a possibility for sure.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > I said it would draw from both, whereas hard mode would only draw from existing raiders. Also, that any players it *did* draw from normal mode, were never normal mode's to own in the first place, and everyone is better off that they're happier in easy mode.

> >

>

> Happier isn't the word I'd use, more like drawn to the easier acquisition of the same rewards.

 

Better than drawn to a hard mode they don't enjoy by the acquisition of rewards they can't get anywhere else, right?

 

Give people fair options, let them choose what they prefer. I've already made clear that I expect to see "less than fair" rewards, so anyone who doesn't want to play easy mode should find a much better offer in hard mode. You can make money doing any job in the world, why would anyone *not* do the easiest possible jobs if everyone's only in it for the lowest possible amount of effort? People find their own balance.

 

>Or you are saying all those players running SW CF are doing because that content is what they find the most fun?

 

We've already discussed that. My answer stands.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > Easy modes need a extremly careful balance between difficulty and rewards. Easy content is hit or miss. Either people play it for rewards afterwards or one time for the experience. We have enough overrewarding content already.

>

> No, it doesn't. Whatever the rewards are, it will kitten off the "exclusivity" community, so they can't even bother to consider that crowd, and as for everyone else, something is better than nothing, so I fully expect them to err on the side of "not rewarding enough," and that's fine, so long as it allows a path forward.

>

> Also, if they do undershoot on rewards, and people don't play it, then so what? They just up the rewards a little bit. A mistake is only a problem if you never correct it. This is easier to raise than it is to lower, but they can get it right without having to agonize over it in advance.

>

> And again, the same applies to Hard mode, if they did make one, it would need to balance rewards as well to get people to play it consistently, and it could be even more of an issue there since the rewards offered would be many times what easy mode would offer, and the players would be much more picky about it, since they already have a mode that they can enjoy. So again, however hard it is to make easy mode, hard mode is considerably more.

>

Yes it matters a lot. It was not in comparison for *normal* mode but the rest of the game. The main reason dungeons died are the fact that many activities reward more in less or the same time. People got tired of them long before.

People don't get picky about what to play for rewards. They just choose the activity with the highest rewards.

 

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > I don't agree, but what if that were true? If the small population that raids is enough to justify the significant efforts that went into creating the raids and all that goes with them, then why wouldn't even a smaller population justify producing an easy mode that would take a fraction of the total effort?

> >

> > You should read this:

> >

> >

> > Splintering the community is a huge issue.

>

> ?It is, which is why hard mode is a bigger concern, since it would split off the existing raid community, whereas easy mode is designed to draw in players from outside it. But if easy mode does draw in players from hard mode, then those players never belonged to hard mode in the first place, so it's a net win for the game.

>

> > More importantly, this phrase:

> > > Two different play modes will send all of the "elite" players to CM, leaving "normal" mode as less desirable.

> >

> > I'm sure you can easily adapt this to an easy mode instead.

>

> Except that, again, ALL hard mode players would pull from the normal mode pool, whereas *many* easy mode players would pull from the "non-raiders" pool, and some might eventually shift up to full raids. Much lower risk of fragmentation.

>

So it will split the community? Also path of least resistance.

Delayed content is a net loss for the game. You still need to proof that the easy mode population will be larger than raiders and non-raiders (people that will not play easy mode) combined. Everything else is a loss for the game.

The people that shift up are basically non-existent. Other games proofed that already. It will be even worse in an open world focused game.

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > I don't think it matters whether it is or not. My concern is that players who want to raid at a more casual level have options to do so.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > And my concern is that the amount of players that applies to is very small, even smaller than the raiding population.

> > > is it? Wouldn't that depend a lot on how easy the easy mode would be?

> > No. It first depends on the players left that don't play raids and and play instanced content in general. It doesn't matter how easy it gets if people don't play instances at all.

>

> It's important to keep in mind that the audience for easy mode raids don't necessarily *have* to be playing other instanced content right now, or even have significant past experience with it. Different content appeals to different players.

>

 

Proof?

People that never played dungeons will never play an easy mode raid.

Yes different content for different players. That's the reason raids got introduced in the first place. But it also attracted players that don't like the gameplay but are attracted by the rewards...

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> >Or you are saying all those players running SW CF are doing because that content is what they find the most fun?

>

> We've already discussed that. My answer stands.

You could start bringing some facts to your assumptions.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Better than drawn to a hard mode they don't enjoy by the acquisition of rewards they can't get anywhere else, right?

>

 

Not really it's not better at all. Playing content just because it's the easiest path to the rewards, while not enjoying it, is worse than having no content to play that gives those rewards. The first one negatively affects those running the content and the content itself. The second one, well you can simply don't run what you don't like.

[nia.4725]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > Uhm... AC and TA were run more than other dungeons for monk runes (all meta heal builds require them) and nightmare runes (condi meta builds require/required them), maybe thats why they are seen being run more often at gw2efficiency

>

> This is probably a possibility for sure.

 

Also gifts for legendaries. Gift of Ascalon is needed for some pretty popular legendaries (Twilight, Sunrise, Bolt, Flameseeker Prophecies).

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > Uhm... AC and TA were run more than other dungeons for monk runes (all meta heal builds require them) and nightmare runes (condi meta builds require/required them), maybe thats why they are seen being run more often at gw2efficiency

> >

> > This is probably a possibility for sure.

>

> Also gifts for legendaries. Gift of Ascalon is needed for some pretty popular legendaries (Twilight, Sunrise, Bolt, Flameseeker Prophecies).

 

It's the same with T1 Fractals, they are needed for precursor crafting, so it's quite possible the data for both dungeons and fractals to far exceed those that actually like the content, and instead it's lot's of players that run them for their rewards instead.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> Yes it matters a lot. It was not in comparison for normal mode but the rest of the game. The main reason dungeons died are the fact that many activities reward more in less or the same time. People got tired of them long before.

People don't get picky about what to play for rewards. They just choose the activity with the highest rewards.

 

Well, those people would likely be disappointed, at least at first. I don't expect it to provide more generic rewards than some of the most efficient farms. It would, however, be the only place to progress towards Legendary armor, so that would be a draw.

 

>People that never played dungeons will never play an easy mode raid.

 

Proof?

 

>Yes different content for different players. That's the reason raids got introduced in the first place. But it also attracted players that don't like the gameplay but are attracted by the rewards...

 

Again though, plenty of people that were *interested* in raids got turned away by the failathon nature of it. Remove that, and those players would come back, and bring more.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Better than drawn to a hard mode they don't enjoy by the acquisition of rewards they can't get anywhere else, right?

> >

>

> Not really it's not better at all. Playing content just because it's the easiest path to the rewards, while not enjoying it, is worse than having no content to play that gives those rewards. The first one negatively affects those running the content and the content itself. The second one, well you can simply don't run what you don't like.

 

Playing content you don't enjoy is bad.

 

Playing content you don't enjoy because it's too hard is worse than playing content that you don't enjoy because it's too easy, because at least with the latter you have less stress and can relax a bit. Ideally you can find content you can actually *enjoy,* but having only one option to pursue a given reward does not allow for that sort of freedom.

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Playing content you don't enjoy because it's too hard is worse than playing content that you don't enjoy because it's too easy, because at least with the latter you have less stress and can relax a bit. Ideally you can find content you can actually *enjoy,* but having only one option to pursue a given reward does not allow for that sort of freedom.

>

 

This is false. If the content is too hard, then don't play it. Problems solved. If you give access to the same reward from an easier mode, you entice players to play it for the rewards and forget what they enjoy. It's called the path of least resistance, in the end that's what kills games, so it's far worse than not having an alternative mode for the rewards you want. Far far worse.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > Yes it matters a lot. It was not in comparison for normal mode but the rest of the game. The main reason dungeons died are the fact that many activities reward more in less or the same time. People got tired of them long before.

> People don't get picky about what to play for rewards. They just choose the activity with the highest rewards.

>

> Well, those people would likely be disappointed, at least at first. I don't expect it to provide more generic rewards than some of the most efficient farms. It would, however, be the only place to progress towards Legendary armor, so that would be a draw.

>

It will progress towards legendary armor as unranked PvP progresses towards the PvP armor.

> >People that never played dungeons will never play an easy mode raid.

>

> Proof?

>

People that weren't interested in an easier version of a content type won't play a harder version. It just doesn't make sense at all.

Where is your proof they would? All you brought for any for your arguments where feelings and dreams how things should behave.

> >Yes different content for different players. That's the reason raids got introduced in the first place. But it also attracted players that don't like the gameplay but are attracted by the rewards...

>

> Again though, plenty of people that were *interested* in raids got turned away by the failathon nature of it. Remove that, and those players would come back, and bring more.

No they won't. People that like laid back instant action play open world. Not a mode where they have to form a team before entering.

 

[nia.4725]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > Yes it matters a lot. It was not in comparison for normal mode but the rest of the game. The main reason dungeons died are the fact that many activities reward more in less or the same time. People got tired of them long before.

> People don't get picky about what to play for rewards. They just choose the activity with the highest rewards.

>

 

This is false. People choose the activity they enjoy and, if they really desire a certain specific reward, they'll do its required activity until they get that reward. Of course everyone gets picky about what to play, because no one wants to play something they don't enjoy.

 

The only reason I'd go to Silverwastes and do some events there is my desire to complete the Carapace armor collection, and once I have it I won't come back unless I need bandit crests again, because I absolutely hate OW maps. However, I enjoy raids so I raid even if I already have the rewards tied to it. Do I care about Palawadan giving a ton of items? No, because I don't like it. I'm in fact curious about how Palawadan is, but the reason I haven't done it already is precisely that I don't like OW. SMaybe some day, if I'm very bored, I'll do it once. And never return again.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > Yes it matters a lot. It was not in comparison for normal mode but the rest of the game. The main reason dungeons died are the fact that many activities reward more in less or the same time. People got tired of them long before.

> > People don't get picky about what to play for rewards. They just choose the activity with the highest rewards.

> >

>

> This is false. People choose the activity they enjoy and, if they really desire a certain specific reward, they'll do its required activity until they get that reward. Of course everyone gets picky about what to play, because no one wants to play something they don't enjoy.

>

> The only reason I'd go to Silverwastes and do some events there is my desire to complete the Carapace armor collection, and once I have it I won't come back unless I need bandit crests again, because I absolutely hate OW maps. However, I enjoy raids so I raid even if I already have the rewards tied to it. Do I care about Palawadan giving a ton of items? No, because I don't like it. I'm in fact curious about how Palawadan is, but the reason I haven't done it already is precisely that I don't like OW. SMaybe some day, if I'm very bored, I'll do it once. And never return again.

 

If you have two options to get a rewards but you like both (or neither). Do you choose the the easier but more time consuming version or the harder where you have to invest time to do it correct and it could be faster in the end but you don't know it?

[nia.4725]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > Yes it matters a lot. It was not in comparison for normal mode but the rest of the game. The main reason dungeons died are the fact that many activities reward more in less or the same time. People got tired of them long before.

> > > People don't get picky about what to play for rewards. They just choose the activity with the highest rewards.

> > >

> >

> > This is false. People choose the activity they enjoy and, if they really desire a certain specific reward, they'll do its required activity until they get that reward. Of course everyone gets picky about what to play, because no one wants to play something they don't enjoy.

> >

> > The only reason I'd go to Silverwastes and do some events there is my desire to complete the Carapace armor collection, and once I have it I won't come back unless I need bandit crests again, because I absolutely hate OW maps. However, I enjoy raids so I raid even if I already have the rewards tied to it. Do I care about Palawadan giving a ton of items? No, because I don't like it. I'm in fact curious about how Palawadan is, but the reason I haven't done it already is precisely that I don't like OW. SMaybe some day, if I'm very bored, I'll do it once. And never return again.

>

> If you have two options to get a rewards but you like both (or neither). Do you choose the the easier but more time consuming version or the harder where you have to invest time to do it correct and it could be faster in the end but you don't know it?

 

(If I don't enjoy neither) The easier, because it would require less effort from me per unit of time dedicated to an activity I don't like.

 

(If I enjoy both) The harder, because it would be faster and I would still be doing something I enjoy, so I wouldn't "suffer".

 

[Cerioth.7062]

Am I the only one who is sick and tired of this back and forth bickering that leads nowhere?

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > Raids need to accommodate everyone

> > > > >

> > > > > This is interesting, do dungeons and fractals also need to accommodate everyone? Because at this moment they do not in fact do that.

> > > > > So before Raids accommodate everyone, why don't you propose an overhaul of Dungeons and Fractals first, so that entry level instanced content can accommodate everyone. It wouldn't make much sense for the 10-player challenging instanced content to be made to accommodate everyone, while the 5-man entry level instanced content does not.

> > > >

> > > > They have fractal scales and dungeons are so easy that they are at the most minimum threshold they can be, so nobody complains, elite specs make them even easier, and most importantly you don't need certain setups, builds or skill rotations for them and the bosses have no enrage timers.

> > >

> > > You'd be surprised, but where difficulties exist, we *do* care about group composition and builds. Dungeons are abandoned and a cakewalk, that's why nobody cares. But people actively playing fractals? They play t4 and cms, they ask for specific builds and they ask for killproof. With exactly the same intent - to get a smooth clear instead of relentless clown fiesta.

> >

> > Your taking about scale 100 fractals, nobody does this on scale 1, and nobody does this on vanilla dungeons. So they have a baseline for vanilla dungeons that is so easy you don't need a lower difficulty option, there are no enrage timers so you could beat it in full nomads. All optimal builds do is make speed runs quicker but they are not necessary. This is not possible I in raids, since if enough die or you don't dps hard enough (specific spec/build + skill level) the boss timer will run out and you will wipe. None of this is true in any dungeons or fractals.

>

> Again, it is true in t4 and cms. Just because t1 is a faceroll and nobody cares about it doesn't extend the same attitude in *all* fractals. The problem would remain, just as it is present in t4/cm. People overrate their skill and will try to enter the groups where skill, build and composition matter. And they'll get kicked, because they're inexperienced and they'll fail. Just like it happens in fractals.

 

Yes but unlike raids, fractals have different difficulty levels (easy, normal, hard).

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > Raids need to accommodate everyone

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is interesting, do dungeons and fractals also need to accommodate everyone? Because at this moment they do not in fact do that.

> > > > > > So before Raids accommodate everyone, why don't you propose an overhaul of Dungeons and Fractals first, so that entry level instanced content can accommodate everyone. It wouldn't make much sense for the 10-player challenging instanced content to be made to accommodate everyone, while the 5-man entry level instanced content does not.

> > > > >

> > > > > They have fractal scales and dungeons are so easy that they are at the most minimum threshold they can be, so nobody complains, elite specs make them even easier, and most importantly you don't need certain setups, builds or skill rotations for them and the bosses have no enrage timers.

> > > >

> > > > You'd be surprised, but where difficulties exist, we *do* care about group composition and builds. Dungeons are abandoned and a cakewalk, that's why nobody cares. But people actively playing fractals? They play t4 and cms, they ask for specific builds and they ask for killproof. With exactly the same intent - to get a smooth clear instead of relentless clown fiesta.

> > >

> > > Your taking about scale 100 fractals, nobody does this on scale 1, and nobody does this on vanilla dungeons. So they have a baseline for vanilla dungeons that is so easy you don't need a lower difficulty option, there are no enrage timers so you could beat it in full nomads. All optimal builds do is make speed runs quicker but they are not necessary. This is not possible I in raids, since if enough die or you don't dps hard enough (specific spec/build + skill level) the boss timer will run out and you will wipe. None of this is true in any dungeons or fractals.

> >

> > Again, it is true in t4 and cms. Just because t1 is a faceroll and nobody cares about it doesn't extend the same attitude in *all* fractals. The problem would remain, just as it is present in t4/cm. People overrate their skill and will try to enter the groups where skill, build and composition matter. And they'll get kicked, because they're inexperienced and they'll fail. Just like it happens in fractals.

>

> Yes but unlike raids, fractals have different difficulty levels (easy, normal, hard).

 

So? What you claimed is still wrong.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > >

> > > And my concern is that the amount of players that applies to is very small, even smaller than the raiding population.

> > is it? Wouldn't that depend a lot on how easy the easy mode would be?

> No. It first depends on the players left that don't play raids and and play instanced content in general. It doesn't matter how easy it gets if people don't play instances at all.

Again, AC suggests that the number of people playing instanced content can be much higher than with raids, depending on circumstances.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> I'm the one asking for specifics on how this easy mode would be like so we can figure all these out but some want to abstract it all

Specifics are in that other thread. And here _you_ were the one assuming the same effect regardless of specifics.

 

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> Proof?

> People that never played dungeons will never play an easy mode raid.

Nowadays they might. Some new players just don't start dungeons, because they hear immediately those are abandoned content. And because nowadays almost noone is running them, so it's much harder to find someone to run them with.

Seriously, i know players that never done dungeons and fractals, but jumped to current raids directly.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> It's the same with T1 Fractals, they are needed for precursor crafting, so it's quite possible the data for both dungeons and fractals to far exceed those that actually like the content, and instead it's lot's of players that run them for their rewards instead.

Well, the same holds true for raids.

 

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> If you have two options to get a rewards but you like both (or neither). Do you choose the the easier but more time consuming version or the harder where you have to invest time to do it correct and it could be faster in the end but you don't know it?

What if you have the harder version on farm mode already (like most raiders currently)?

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Specifics are in that other thread. And here _you_ were the one assuming the same effect regardless of specifics.

>

 

How so? When I see bad specifics I comment on them that's the point of having a discussion. It's not like when someone posts specifics everyone has to agree with them.

At least the comments on specifics can be better basis for a discussion than abstractions.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > > Raids need to accommodate everyone

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is interesting, do dungeons and fractals also need to accommodate everyone? Because at this moment they do not in fact do that.

> > > > > > > So before Raids accommodate everyone, why don't you propose an overhaul of Dungeons and Fractals first, so that entry level instanced content can accommodate everyone. It wouldn't make much sense for the 10-player challenging instanced content to be made to accommodate everyone, while the 5-man entry level instanced content does not.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > They have fractal scales and dungeons are so easy that they are at the most minimum threshold they can be, so nobody complains, elite specs make them even easier, and most importantly you don't need certain setups, builds or skill rotations for them and the bosses have no enrage timers.

> > > > >

> > > > > You'd be surprised, but where difficulties exist, we *do* care about group composition and builds. Dungeons are abandoned and a cakewalk, that's why nobody cares. But people actively playing fractals? They play t4 and cms, they ask for specific builds and they ask for killproof. With exactly the same intent - to get a smooth clear instead of relentless clown fiesta.

> > > >

> > > > Your taking about scale 100 fractals, nobody does this on scale 1, and nobody does this on vanilla dungeons. So they have a baseline for vanilla dungeons that is so easy you don't need a lower difficulty option, there are no enrage timers so you could beat it in full nomads. All optimal builds do is make speed runs quicker but they are not necessary. This is not possible I in raids, since if enough die or you don't dps hard enough (specific spec/build + skill level) the boss timer will run out and you will wipe. None of this is true in any dungeons or fractals.

> > >

> > > Again, it is true in t4 and cms. Just because t1 is a faceroll and nobody cares about it doesn't extend the same attitude in *all* fractals. The problem would remain, just as it is present in t4/cm. People overrate their skill and will try to enter the groups where skill, build and composition matter. And they'll get kicked, because they're inexperienced and they'll fail. Just like it happens in fractals.

> >

> > Yes but unlike raids, fractals have different difficulty levels (easy, normal, hard).

>

> So? What you claimed is still wrong.

 

I never said I was trying to prevent all kicking. Just reduce it and give people more options which reduces it further.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > > > Raids need to accommodate everyone

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This is interesting, do dungeons and fractals also need to accommodate everyone? Because at this moment they do not in fact do that.

> > > > > > > > So before Raids accommodate everyone, why don't you propose an overhaul of Dungeons and Fractals first, so that entry level instanced content can accommodate everyone. It wouldn't make much sense for the 10-player challenging instanced content to be made to accommodate everyone, while the 5-man entry level instanced content does not.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > They have fractal scales and dungeons are so easy that they are at the most minimum threshold they can be, so nobody complains, elite specs make them even easier, and most importantly you don't need certain setups, builds or skill rotations for them and the bosses have no enrage timers.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You'd be surprised, but where difficulties exist, we *do* care about group composition and builds. Dungeons are abandoned and a cakewalk, that's why nobody cares. But people actively playing fractals? They play t4 and cms, they ask for specific builds and they ask for killproof. With exactly the same intent - to get a smooth clear instead of relentless clown fiesta.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your taking about scale 100 fractals, nobody does this on scale 1, and nobody does this on vanilla dungeons. So they have a baseline for vanilla dungeons that is so easy you don't need a lower difficulty option, there are no enrage timers so you could beat it in full nomads. All optimal builds do is make speed runs quicker but they are not necessary. This is not possible I in raids, since if enough die or you don't dps hard enough (specific spec/build + skill level) the boss timer will run out and you will wipe. None of this is true in any dungeons or fractals.

> > > >

> > > > Again, it is true in t4 and cms. Just because t1 is a faceroll and nobody cares about it doesn't extend the same attitude in *all* fractals. The problem would remain, just as it is present in t4/cm. People overrate their skill and will try to enter the groups where skill, build and composition matter. And they'll get kicked, because they're inexperienced and they'll fail. Just like it happens in fractals.

> > >

> > > Yes but unlike raids, fractals have different difficulty levels (easy, normal, hard).

> >

> > So? What you claimed is still wrong.

>

> I never said I was trying to prevent all kicking. Just reduce it and give people more options which reduces it further.

 

It. Will. Not. Happen. Clearly. The problem is people misjudge their skill and try to play on the difficulty they're not ready to. Just like in fractals.