vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 8, 2018 Share Posted May 8, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > nope as per posters above you can simply farm it, what's more you can even use boosters (looks like you didn't know this, maybe you understand now). assuming it takes the casual player a year to farm legendary in wvw, then no reason why normal level raids would not be the same - anything else would obviously be unfair. > > > > > > > > > > I remember players complaining that WVW doesn't get enough good rewards. Maybe this is why, it's hard to reward actual effort and player skill in WVW. > > > > > > > > actually you can just follow a farm trail if you so desired and apply no skill whatsoever. Most simply have fun doing what they want to do however, which is kinda the point, > > > > > > Yes that's what I said, that's why WVW rewards aren't as good as they could be. Once they figure out a way to reward actual skill maybe more/better rewards will reach that part of the game. They did it with the Ascension in PVP, instead of using the flawed PVP reward tracks, getting the Ascension required some great deal of actual PVP to get. It's really sad to go into player versus player content and get all the rewards while not actively engaging other players defeating the purpose of PVP. > > > > lol so now the inference is that easy mode raids shouldn't have legendary long term goals even though casual wvw has it, because its a mistake for casual wvw now because that validates your arguments. at this point you guys would argue the world is flat if it protected your personal interests. The reality is the wvw legendary rewards are very welcome in wvw and will not change. > > I honestly have no clue how you get Legendary Armor in WVW. I only went by your word "actually you can just follow a farm trail if you so desired and apply no skill whatsoever". I never said that adding Legendary Armor to "casual wvw" was a mistake, for the important reason that no "hardcore wvw" exist. I'm only saying IF there was a non-casual way of getting WVW rewards then Legendary Armor would fit there and not on the casual side. Now that such a way doesn't actually exist, adding Legendary Armor to WVW wasn't a mistake at all. ok then we agree my bad. That was my original point about theoretical long timer legendary rewards for easy mode raids. The argument against it has no basis because ultimately its already in game for casual play (same time served model) . Anet have recognised giving long term goals is important for casual players too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted May 8, 2018 Share Posted May 8, 2018 > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said: > > > Istn it easy mode enough If we Took enrage timer away :D then ppl can run raids with bunkerbuilds and 4healers. It will take time but you won't fail :D > > > > No. > > > > For MMORPG-Standards, the enrage timers in GW2 are already really really lenient. Plus there has to be an indicator to show you that the group or several members of your group suck, so they are forced to improve. That's a fundamental mechanism in every MMORPG. > > Yep. I dont care for easy mode, it was just my suggestion for one. > Also that indicator is called dps meter DPS-meters aren't necessarily good and/or reliable skill-indicators, especially if they aren't well fleshed-out (like showing the actual rotation, timestamps of each skill, etc.). Most people aren't able to read dps-logs anyway, no matter how detailed they may are. Often, they fail to show situational necessities. People also seem to forget that instanced PvE-content is about group-accomplishments and not about a single person. Just looking at numbers is fairly short-sighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sokeenoppa.5384 Posted May 8, 2018 Share Posted May 8, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said: > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said: > > > > Istn it easy mode enough If we Took enrage timer away :D then ppl can run raids with bunkerbuilds and 4healers. It will take time but you won't fail :D > > > > > > No. > > > > > > For MMORPG-Standards, the enrage timers in GW2 are already really really lenient. Plus there has to be an indicator to show you that the group or several members of your group suck, so they are forced to improve. That's a fundamental mechanism in every MMORPG. > > > > Yep. I dont care for easy mode, it was just my suggestion for one. > > Also that indicator is called dps meter > > DPS-meters aren't necessarily good and/or reliable skill-indicators, especially if they aren't well fleshed-out (like showing the actual rotation, timestamps of each skill, etc.). Most people aren't able to read dps-logs anyway, no matter how detailed they may are. Often, they fail to show situational necessities. People also seem to forget that instanced PvE-content is about group-accomplishments and not about a single person. Just looking at numbers is fairly short-sighted. Yeah. But you Will spot "rotten Apple" in ur Squad If there is one. If ur DPS player does less dps than ur druids/chronos for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 8, 2018 Share Posted May 8, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > > @"Thobek.1730" said: > > > > > The biggest threads in this forums are either easy raids for causals that what to experience raiding and an easier/better way to organize a raid (lfg, autofill) > > > > > > > > > > I'd say there is a strong interest in this no matter what the people opposing this say. > > > > > > > > > > Not sure what the argument is against an easy mode as long as the rewards are less that what the tougher modes are. Easy modes in most MMOs are just there for people to see the content basically with minor lower tier rewards. Can't see how it would effect anyone raiding atm, instead it would just allow more people to become interested in raiding. > > > > > > > > Well if easy mode give 2 blues, 1 green and 1 rare weekly there is no problem mate. > > > > Thats a minor low tier reward, most people in this thread dont want that tho. > > > > > > you can farm legendaries by simply playing wvw and pvp casually, same would apply here ofc. > > > > Come on, it's technically true but in reality it's not. > > > > WvW require rank 2000 and that's a LOT of WvW, you can't just play casually WvW and get the armor unless you don't mind needing a couple of years to reach the rank. > > > > And the pvp legendary armor needs a LOT of ascended shards, just farming is too time consuming. You have to win if you do not want to die waiting to get all the shards. > > nope as per posters above you can simply farm it, what's more you can even use boosters (looks like you didn't know this, maybe you understand now). assuming it takes the casual player a year to farm legendary in wvw, then no reason why normal level raids would not be the same - anything else would obviously be unfair. You can get the first legendary pve armor in just 4 or 5 months, even less if you try to speed up your learning and kill as many bosses as possible. More legens will take more time since you'll need 300li instead of 150. I've been raiding for a year and I have enough li for 3 legendaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted May 9, 2018 Author Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > Well clearly pve world bosses is a baseline difficulty of nobody getting kicked, so they could make raids that easy and then nobody would be removed from any group. That would actually solve all the problems. And what does a person misjudging their skill for content have to do with anything? > > Difficulty is not why there is no removal from groups in pve world bosses. > You see no kicks because they are pointless, if let's say Tequatl was inside an instance (without changes in difficulty) you'd see loads of kicks from the squad there. For example every single dead person that refuses to use a waypoint. Yah but there really is no reason to kick because it's so easy, and even if you do you're not excluded from finishing the content. That's my point, make it as easy as world bosses and scrutinization pretty much drops to zero, I'm not saying it should be that easy but some difficulty options and features to find people would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted May 9, 2018 Author Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids need to accommodate everyone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is interesting, do dungeons and fractals also need to accommodate everyone? Because at this moment they do not in fact do that. > > > > > > > > > > > So before Raids accommodate everyone, why don't you propose an overhaul of Dungeons and Fractals first, so that entry level instanced content can accommodate everyone. It wouldn't make much sense for the 10-player challenging instanced content to be made to accommodate everyone, while the 5-man entry level instanced content does not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They have fractal scales and dungeons are so easy that they are at the most minimum threshold they can be, so nobody complains, elite specs make them even easier, and most importantly you don't need certain setups, builds or skill rotations for them and the bosses have no enrage timers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You'd be surprised, but where difficulties exist, we *do* care about group composition and builds. Dungeons are abandoned and a cakewalk, that's why nobody cares. But people actively playing fractals? They play t4 and cms, they ask for specific builds and they ask for killproof. With exactly the same intent - to get a smooth clear instead of relentless clown fiesta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your taking about scale 100 fractals, nobody does this on scale 1, and nobody does this on vanilla dungeons. So they have a baseline for vanilla dungeons that is so easy you don't need a lower difficulty option, there are no enrage timers so you could beat it in full nomads. All optimal builds do is make speed runs quicker but they are not necessary. This is not possible I in raids, since if enough die or you don't dps hard enough (specific spec/build + skill level) the boss timer will run out and you will wipe. None of this is true in any dungeons or fractals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, it is true in t4 and cms. Just because t1 is a faceroll and nobody cares about it doesn't extend the same attitude in *all* fractals. The problem would remain, just as it is present in t4/cm. People overrate their skill and will try to enter the groups where skill, build and composition matter. And they'll get kicked, because they're inexperienced and they'll fail. Just like it happens in fractals. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes but unlike raids, fractals have different difficulty levels (easy, normal, hard). > > > > > > > > > > So? What you claimed is still wrong. > > > > > > > > I never said I was trying to prevent all kicking. Just reduce it and give people more options which reduces it further. > > > > > > It. Will. Not. Happen. Clearly. The problem is people misjudge their skill and try to play on the difficulty they're not ready to. Just like in fractals. > > > > Well clearly pve world bosses is a baseline difficulty of nobody getting kicked, since they're so easy, there is no reason to scrutinized anyone, so they could make raids that easy and then nobody would be removed from any group. That would actually solve all of the problems related to grouping. What does a person misjudging their personal skill for content have to do with anything? > > If you made the raid bosses that level of difficulty, they'd be world bosses. And shockingly, these already exist. So it is not necessary. You don't want to bother performing, but you don't want to get kicked? Easy - join the world boss train. Your claiming that we shouldn't have difficulties because it solves nothing in regards to lowering scrutinization of players, as an example I said that if raids were as easy as world bosses, nobody would scrutinize, thus showing a clear correlation between content difficulty and player scrutinization, which is at an all time high, specifically in gw2 raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > Sorry if my response wasn't clear. You're saying the economy can be balanced but not serving its function in either providing money or materials. > > > > Yes, or at least that it would not be serving it to the best of its possibility. > > > > > This would mean it is actually unbalanced. > > > > Not necessarily. An economy that is stable and non-inflationary would be in balance, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it properly serves its function of inputting and outputting the resources in a way that best serves the players. If, for example, a given material had a relatively stable market price, and yet that price was higher than would be worth spending for most of the functions that material serves, then it would be in balance by virtue of its stability, but would not be best serving the players because players that wanted to use that material could not find it at an affordable price. > > But in the economies case the price of a material works both ways. An item is affordable if the economy is balanced because you could sell similar materials for the roughly the same price. > > I'm not saying our economy is balanced just that a balanced economy would serve in the players best interest. Basically the argument I'm making is that economics fans view (or at least in the past have viewed) the TP as a "balanced" economy that is "working well," because from an economic standpoint it tends to be relatively stable in terms of pricing swings. My argument is that while this is true, it does not lead to the best possible outcome for players, because the islands of stability that various items reach are in many cases outside the ranges that are of value to players, with many items necessarily costing a higher price than anyone would want to pay for them, due to other forces in the market, rather than being priced at the correct value for the function of the item. It is an economy that values the economy itself over the players. > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > Again yes, that's what balance of rewards actually is you don't knowing the meaning of the word is irrelevant. > > > > "Balance of rewards" means that the rewards from each content zone are "in balance" > > Your kind of balance doesn't exist and that's because having activities that are "equally good" at getting the same reward is not possible to create in a game. That's because the ways to get a reward are subjective and cannot be balanced appropriately. Exactly, which is why "each content gets their own specific reward" can NEVER be considered a "balanced" system, whether that's how you prefer it to be or not. There's too much subjectivity. The only way to achieve *balance* is to remove the subjectivity form the equation, to offer as many of the items as possible in ALL content, and just balance out the *quantities* relative to the average time and effort it would take to earn things there. "Easy" content offers less, "hard" content offers more, but whatever item you want, whichever content you enjoy, you can play that content while working toward that item, no subjective penalties. >If the rewards between those two content types were to be called "Balanced" by how you called it, then running either would net you the same amount of rewards for a similar invested time/effort. Effort is impossible to quantify so let's say time, tokens/minute are what could be balanced, but even that is impossible and that's because rewards aren't acquired after certain time passes. I agree that balance in such a system would be difficult, and practically impossible to achieve, but it is still *more* possible than in a system in which you could only earn the carvings via *one* of those methods. Getting "a few too many" or "a few too few" of the carvings when in one mode over another is not perfect, but it's far better than "getting ZERO of the carvings" per unit of time. We can't allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > Again yes, that's what balance of rewards actually is you don't knowing the meaning of the word is irrelevant. > > > > "Balance of rewards" means that the rewards from each content zone are "in balance," as in they would never play a factor in your choice of activities, because one would be equally as good as another, and you'd just end up doing the activity that appeals to you most. > > That's *horrible* design. The reason? It makes the game boring. You think appeal is something constant? It isn't. Repeating something over and over ceases to be fun and rewards are a primary drive to keep going. By allowing all rewards to be collected from any activity, you're giving your players a **strong** incentive to pick a single grind and stick to it. They'll become more efficient in it, they'll know the ropes, why would they change? So while you're *attempting* to give your players the freedom of choice, you *actually* condemn them to a grindy experience they'll grow bored of in a fraction of the time your game could otherwise entertain you. But if the rewards are in balance, then they have no reason to not move to a different role if they get bored. I know I've done that numerous times over this game, and I imagine you have as well. Unique rewards only *enforce* grind, by giving you no options but to stay until that grind is complete, or abandon the thing you've invested so heavily into. The "sunk cost" fallacy plays a major role. By allowing players the *option* of earning rewards elsewhere, it can give them the option to move on when they get bored. Now you do make a good point in that sometimes players get stuck in a rut and don't want to move, but there are ways to reduce that, like by offering *short term* and *low investment* rewards unique to a given activity, something that will nudge players out of their comfort zone to *try* a new thing, but not buried so deeply that it would *trap* them there. If they had grown bored of their chosen farm, this would give them a chance to try something else, and if they did enjoy it more, then they could switch over to that, and continue their collecting without skipping a beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > There's too much subjectivity. Giving the same rewards to multiple types of content also has too much subjectivity. In the carving example, how many you get per minute isn't set. > Getting "a few too many" or "a few too few" of the carvings when in one mode over another is not perfect, but it's far better than "getting ZERO of the carvings" per unit of time. We can't allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good. As you might've noticed, this is where we disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > nope as per posters above you can simply farm it, what's more you can even use boosters (looks like you didn't know this, maybe you understand now). assuming it takes the casual player a year to farm legendary in wvw, then no reason why normal level raids would not be the same - anything else would obviously be unfair. > > > > > > > > > > > > I remember players complaining that WVW doesn't get enough good rewards. Maybe this is why, it's hard to reward actual effort and player skill in WVW. > > > > > > > > > > actually you can just follow a farm trail if you so desired and apply no skill whatsoever. Most simply have fun doing what they want to do however, which is kinda the point, > > > > > > > > Yes that's what I said, that's why WVW rewards aren't as good as they could be. Once they figure out a way to reward actual skill maybe more/better rewards will reach that part of the game. They did it with the Ascension in PVP, instead of using the flawed PVP reward tracks, getting the Ascension required some great deal of actual PVP to get. It's really sad to go into player versus player content and get all the rewards while not actively engaging other players defeating the purpose of PVP. > > > > > > lol so now the inference is that easy mode raids shouldn't have legendary long term goals even though casual wvw has it, because its a mistake for casual wvw now because that validates your arguments. at this point you guys would argue the world is flat if it protected your personal interests. The reality is the wvw legendary rewards are very welcome in wvw and will not change. > > > > I honestly have no clue how you get Legendary Armor in WVW. I only went by your word "actually you can just follow a farm trail if you so desired and apply no skill whatsoever". I never said that adding Legendary Armor to "casual wvw" was a mistake, for the important reason that no "hardcore wvw" exist. I'm only saying IF there was a non-casual way of getting WVW rewards then Legendary Armor would fit there and not on the casual side. Now that such a way doesn't actually exist, adding Legendary Armor to WVW wasn't a mistake at all. > > ok then we agree my bad. That was my original point about theoretical long timer legendary rewards for easy mode raids. The argument against it has no basis because ultimately its already in game for casual play (same time served model) . Anet have recognised giving long term goals is important for casual players too. I think the best system for Legendary Armor acquisition is in PVP. There are two versions with different skins available. The https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ardent_Glorious_armor skin is available to all, it's a long term goal, your skill allows you to get it faster. And then there is the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glorious_Hero%27s_armor skin which is only available to the winners of monthly pvp tournaments. In PVE we have a skill gated skin but not a time-gated skin. Of course we can all agree that the winners of the monthly tournaments are a fraction of the raiding population Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > Giving the same rewards to multiple types of content also has too much subjectivity. In the carving example, how many you get per minute isn't set. That's not subjective, that's objective, I think you mean it's variable. Yes, it is variable, which is why you need to use averages for balancing purposes, and try to reduce excessive swings (like closing massive loopholes that allow way faster than expected clear times). The point is, if you *can* get the thing you want via multiple sources, then you can pick the one you like (even if it's not the absolute most efficient). If, on the other hand, you only have one source available, then you have no genuine choice in the matter, it's that way or nothing. >As you might've noticed, this is where we disagree. I've noticed, but again, you can disagree on what you *want,* but not on the terms used to describe that. I get that you *want* unique rewards for each content to be a thing, fine, we can disagree on that, but regardless of your feelings on the matter, it has nothing to do with "balance." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > Well clearly pve world bosses is a baseline difficulty of nobody getting kicked, so they could make raids that easy and then nobody would be removed from any group. That would actually solve all the problems. And what does a person misjudging their skill for content have to do with anything? > > > > Difficulty is not why there is no removal from groups in pve world bosses. > > You see no kicks because they are pointless, if let's say Tequatl was inside an instance (without changes in difficulty) you'd see loads of kicks from the squad there. For example every single dead person that refuses to use a waypoint. > > Yah but there really is no reason to kick because it's so easy, and even if you do you're not excluded from finishing the content. That's my point, make it as easy as world bosses and scrutinization pretty much drops to zero, I'm not saying it should be that easy but some difficulty options and features to find people would help. This wouldn't work either, I gave the example of Tequatl, if it was in an instance you'd see kicks there too (the dead that don't waypoint for example). At Shadow Behemoth you might kick those standing waiting for his head and not moving to attack the portals. In an instance you can always find reasons to kick slackers, in the open world, you you said it, even if you kick them they can stay with the squad and leech the rewards anyway. That's not possible inside an instance as kicking will exclude you from the rewards. Also, while world bosses in central tyria are really easy, bosses and events in the Heart of Thorns are not as much. Legendary Wyverns, the Chak Gerent, even some sides of the Octovine have a higher difficulty rating, and lots of ways to fail, which means lots of reasons to kick. Further, as you can see in this thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/37656/how-would-an-easy-mode-raid-work-vg/p1 even supporters of an easy mode do not want easy mode to be like a world boss at all. What happens then? We add two easy modes, one for the easy mode crowd, and one for the no-difficulty crowd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > The point is, if you can get the thing you want via multiple sources, then you can pick the one you like (even if it's not the absolute most efficient) Experience in this game and many others shows that this isn't true. You must be really naive if you think otherwise. > I've noticed, but again, you can disagree on what you *want,* but not on the terms used to describe that. I get that you *want* unique rewards for each content to be a thing, fine, we can disagree on that, but regardless of your feelings on the matter, it has nothing to do with "balance." You have 100 rewards and 10 types of content. Give 10 to each, there, you have "balance of rewards" as each content type gets its fair share. If you add weights to the rewards, one is Legendary, the other is common and so on, you can tweak the numbers around further. Still balanced. That's how they did in GW1, give each boss a chance to drop a unique item, one green item per boss. Big dungeon end-bosses got a bigger selection of rewards than one green, because they were bigger threats. Then they added the way to sell them to other players giving them market value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > This wouldn't work either, I gave the example of Tequatl, if it was in an instance you'd see kicks there too (the dead that don't waypoint for example). At Shadow Behemoth you might kick those standing waiting for his head and not moving to attack the portals. In an instance you can always find reasons to kick slackers, in the open world, you you said it, even if you kick them they can stay with the squad and leech the rewards anyway. That's not possible inside an instance as kicking will exclude you from the rewards. The difference is, in the situations you listed, the people doing the kicking would be jerks, because it would be completely unnecessary and petty. In a raid, however, that sort of behavior is justified, because one bad player can keep nine decent players from clearing the content. That's why there need to be easier versions, in which it's much less likely that a few bad apples would be *capable* of spoiling the batch. Would you still have *some* jerks that would kick people anyway? Of course, jerks are universal. But you'd also have plenty of groups that would not kick people, and would not have to, and that's what matters. >Experience in this game and many others shows that this isn't true. You must be really naive if you think otherwise. Experience in this game and many others shows that this is true. You must be really cynical if you think otherwise. Of course each player makes his own choices and you can't force him to have fun, but just because you can't force a horse to drink doesn't mean you shouldn't make any water available. >You have 100 rewards and 10 types of content. Give 10 to each, there, you have "balance of rewards" as each content type gets its fair share. No, that's not balanced, because a player might strongly prefer the rewards granted to one type of content over another. Rewards are not fungible, you can *never* say "the ten we put over there are "equally as good" as the ten we put over here," because that's not up to the designer to decide. Now again, you might *prefer* it that way, just as a person might prefer that the items he wants can all be earned from the content he enjoys. That's fine, that's entirely subjective. What you suggest at the very least does not lead to *more* balance than just having all the rewards available in all the content, so again, you can claim that you *prefer* the unique rewards, but you cannot accurately claim that it leads to *more* balance. >That's how they did in GW1, give each boss a chance to drop a unique item, one green item per boss. Big dungeon end-bosses got a bigger selection of rewards than one green, because they were bigger threats. Then they added the way to sell them to other players giving them market value. So in GW1 every boss was farmed equally? None were overlooked? Or, on the off chance that some didn't get played, these were *only* the ones that were really lame or annoying to fight, never the ones that had rewards that nobody particularly wanted? And the ones that did get played constantly were the ones that everyone agreed were the most fun to play, not the ones with the rewards that were considered "more desirable?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > The difference is, in the situations you listed, the people doing the kicking would be jerks, because it would be completely unnecessary and petty. In a raid, however, that sort of behavior is justified, because one bad player can keep nine decent players from clearing the content. He was talking about putting something similar to shadow behemoth into an instance. No matter how easy it is, if it's an instance kicks can and will happen. Kicking in the open world is indeed a jerk move because it accomplishes nothing anyway. They can still leech. > Experience in this game and many others shows that this is true. You must be really cynical if you think otherwise. I guess AB ML and Palawadan were the most popular content in the game because everyone found them the most fun and engaging (proven by the majority playing them). > No, that's not balanced, because a player might strongly prefer the rewards granted to one type of content over another. Rewards are not fungible, you can *never* say "the ten we put over there are "equally as good" as the ten we put over here," because that's not up to the designer to decide. The needs of a specific player are hardly relevant when talking about reward balance. It **IS** up to the designer to decide. Ever wondered why some mount skins are available as solo purchases while others are put in a package? That's because a designer chooses how much "weight" each different skin has and prices it accordingly. There are mount skins in the adoption license that I find prettier than the solo skins. That doesn't really matter because a designer makes the choices, not me. That's what balancing does. Ever wonder why Boots cost less tokens than chests? Ever wonder why each dungeon has one unique set of armor and weapons? No dungeon has two of those, to keep them balanced with each other. I know you can't accept **this** balance but that doesn't make it any less **balance** than your balance. > So in GW1 every boss was farmed equally? Not really, it's impossible to do that because each item has a different value. But all the bosses got their own unique drops, this even allowed the developers to make themed drops that were appropriate for each boss, making the items fitting for the content you got them from. Also, GW1 items had a market value which meant the hardest to get items (from the more difficult bosses) were also the more profitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Godrik.5841 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 Raids are hard to only the people who chose not to put in the time to learn and practice. It was hard for all of us, but those who chose to practice and stuck with it, it became easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted May 9, 2018 Author Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > Well clearly pve world bosses is a baseline difficulty of nobody getting kicked, so they could make raids that easy and then nobody would be removed from any group. That would actually solve all the problems. And what does a person misjudging their skill for content have to do with anything? > > > > > > Difficulty is not why there is no removal from groups in pve world bosses. > > > You see no kicks because they are pointless, if let's say Tequatl was inside an instance (without changes in difficulty) you'd see loads of kicks from the squad there. For example every single dead person that refuses to use a waypoint. > > > > Yah but there really is no reason to kick because it's so easy, and even if you do you're not excluded from finishing the content. That's my point, make it as easy as world bosses and scrutinization pretty much drops to zero, I'm not saying it should be that easy but some difficulty options and features to find people would help. > > This wouldn't work either, I gave the example of Tequatl, if it was in an instance you'd see kicks there too (the dead that don't waypoint for example). > At Shadow Behemoth you might kick those standing waiting for his head and not moving to attack the portals. > In an instance you can always find reasons to kick slackers, in the open world, you you said it, even if you kick them they can stay with the squad and leech the rewards anyway. That's not possible inside an instance as kicking will exclude you from the rewards. > > Also, while world bosses in central tyria are really easy, bosses and events in the Heart of Thorns are not as much. > Legendary Wyverns, the Chak Gerent, even some sides of the Octovine have a higher difficulty rating, and lots of ways to fail, which means lots of reasons to kick. > > Further, as you can see in this thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/37656/how-would-an-easy-mode-raid-work-vg/p1 even supporters of an easy mode do not want easy mode to be like a world boss at all. What happens then? We add two easy modes, one for the easy mode crowd, and one for the no-difficulty crowd? Yes but my only point was that lowering the difficulty of raid content lowers players scrutinization and lowers people's desire to kick players for any reason. This is the only issue im concerned with, not actually implementing an easy mode into raids, but lowering the amount of socializing, scrutinization of others as well as making it easier to setup a group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > nope as per posters above you can simply farm it, what's more you can even use boosters (looks like you didn't know this, maybe you understand now). assuming it takes the casual player a year to farm legendary in wvw, then no reason why normal level raids would not be the same - anything else would obviously be unfair. > > > > > > I remember players complaining that WVW doesn't get enough good rewards. Maybe this is why, it's hard to reward actual effort and player skill in WVW. > > > > actually you can just follow a farm trail if you so desired and apply no skill whatsoever. Most simply have fun doing what they want to do however, which is kinda the point, > > Yes that's what I said, that's why WVW rewards aren't as good as they could be. Once they figure out a way to reward actual skill maybe more/better rewards will reach that part of the game. They did it with the Ascension in PVP, instead of using the flawed PVP reward tracks, getting the Ascension required some great deal of actual PVP to get. It's really sad to go into player versus player content and get all the rewards while not actively engaging other players defeating the purpose of PVP. Wuuuuuuhhhhh! From someone who is almost finished the armor, you realize that when you win games you gain more pips yeah? Which makes gaining things like the precursor armor and 2400 ascended shards faster? That being said, even if you try to lose matches your 4 other players might still bring the victory, but that being said why would you sabotage people like that? That’s like going into a raid and purposely losing. The Ascension can still be gained by having 4 other really good players that make up for your lack of skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > Well clearly pve world bosses is a baseline difficulty of nobody getting kicked, so they could make raids that easy and then nobody would be removed from any group. That would actually solve all the problems. And what does a person misjudging their skill for content have to do with anything? > > > > > > > > Difficulty is not why there is no removal from groups in pve world bosses. > > > > You see no kicks because they are pointless, if let's say Tequatl was inside an instance (without changes in difficulty) you'd see loads of kicks from the squad there. For example every single dead person that refuses to use a waypoint. > > > > > > Yah but there really is no reason to kick because it's so easy, and even if you do you're not excluded from finishing the content. That's my point, make it as easy as world bosses and scrutinization pretty much drops to zero, I'm not saying it should be that easy but some difficulty options and features to find people would help. > > > > This wouldn't work either, I gave the example of Tequatl, if it was in an instance you'd see kicks there too (the dead that don't waypoint for example). > > At Shadow Behemoth you might kick those standing waiting for his head and not moving to attack the portals. > > In an instance you can always find reasons to kick slackers, in the open world, you you said it, even if you kick them they can stay with the squad and leech the rewards anyway. That's not possible inside an instance as kicking will exclude you from the rewards. > > > > Also, while world bosses in central tyria are really easy, bosses and events in the Heart of Thorns are not as much. > > Legendary Wyverns, the Chak Gerent, even some sides of the Octovine have a higher difficulty rating, and lots of ways to fail, which means lots of reasons to kick. > > > > Further, as you can see in this thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/37656/how-would-an-easy-mode-raid-work-vg/p1 even supporters of an easy mode do not want easy mode to be like a world boss at all. What happens then? We add two easy modes, one for the easy mode crowd, and one for the no-difficulty crowd? > > Yes but my only point was that lowering the difficulty of raid content lowers players scrutinization and lowers people's desire to kick players for any reason. This is the only issue im concerned with, not actually implementing an easy mode into raids, but lowering the amount of socializing, scrutinization of others as well as making it easier to setup a group. I agree with this, the issue is removing factors that make people feel they need to quit or worse kick others. That means fights that are challenging but don't require 'training' i.e doesn't have bullet storms, one shot attacks and tight enrage timers that trigger the meter monkeys. The goal is not tuned raids (we have existing raids for that) , the goal is pleasurable relaxed 10 man instances that gives an opportunity for all to play their favourite character and build in larger more complicated fights with all the dynamics that fighting with 10 people brings. From what we can see in this thread, there are no negatives for this, i.e here are the 'objections' raised: - Demand: evidently there is demand for easy and hard mode. - Cost to implement: It only took a small team to build the entire raid structure in GW", so taking a few extra developers from the existing 400 or so developer pot is not inconceivable. Whatsmore, tuning down is obviously cheaper since undertuning and overturning is less risky as you are not balancing to enrage timers. - Rewards: well we can see legendary rewards from casual play in WVW already so there's no issue with this. Make sure skins are different from existing raids (especially) and we are golden. - It will split the player base: No, it will only split the existing minority that plays raids - worse case scenario. - People who are arguing against this for selfish reasons will be unhappy. Yes they will. and the benefits? - New content for everyone including existing raiders. - A new stream of players for existing raids as they naturally migrate up from easy mode (plus they have learned a good part of the fights) This becomes your natural training ground. - Possible new investment in additional raids for all at all difficulty levels. Raid reuse is also higher so current investment has better bang for buck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > Wuuuuuuhhhhh! From someone who is almost finished the armor, you realize that when you win games you gain more pips yeah? Which makes gaining things like the precursor armor and 2400 ascended shards faster? I replied later on the subject of the pvp version: > I think the best system for Legendary Armor acquisition is in PVP. There are two versions with different skins available. > The https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ardent_Glorious_armor skin is available to all, it's a long term goal, your skill allows you to get it faster. > And then there is the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glorious_Hero's_armor skin which is only available to the winners of monthly pvp tournaments. > In PVE we have a skill gated skin but not a time-gated skin. Of course we can all agree that the winners of the monthly tournaments are a fraction of the raiding population Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > Well clearly pve world bosses is a baseline difficulty of nobody getting kicked, so they could make raids that easy and then nobody would be removed from any group. That would actually solve all the problems. And what does a person misjudging their skill for content have to do with anything? > > > > > > > > > > Difficulty is not why there is no removal from groups in pve world bosses. > > > > > You see no kicks because they are pointless, if let's say Tequatl was inside an instance (without changes in difficulty) you'd see loads of kicks from the squad there. For example every single dead person that refuses to use a waypoint. > > > > > > > > Yah but there really is no reason to kick because it's so easy, and even if you do you're not excluded from finishing the content. That's my point, make it as easy as world bosses and scrutinization pretty much drops to zero, I'm not saying it should be that easy but some difficulty options and features to find people would help. > > > > > > This wouldn't work either, I gave the example of Tequatl, if it was in an instance you'd see kicks there too (the dead that don't waypoint for example). > > > At Shadow Behemoth you might kick those standing waiting for his head and not moving to attack the portals. > > > In an instance you can always find reasons to kick slackers, in the open world, you you said it, even if you kick them they can stay with the squad and leech the rewards anyway. That's not possible inside an instance as kicking will exclude you from the rewards. > > > > > > Also, while world bosses in central tyria are really easy, bosses and events in the Heart of Thorns are not as much. > > > Legendary Wyverns, the Chak Gerent, even some sides of the Octovine have a higher difficulty rating, and lots of ways to fail, which means lots of reasons to kick. > > > > > > Further, as you can see in this thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/37656/how-would-an-easy-mode-raid-work-vg/p1 even supporters of an easy mode do not want easy mode to be like a world boss at all. What happens then? We add two easy modes, one for the easy mode crowd, and one for the no-difficulty crowd? > > > > Yes but my only point was that lowering the difficulty of raid content lowers players scrutinization and lowers people's desire to kick players for any reason. This is the only issue im concerned with, not actually implementing an easy mode into raids, but lowering the amount of socializing, scrutinization of others as well as making it easier to setup a group. > > I agree with this, the issue is removing factors that make people feel they need to quit or worse kick others. That means fights that are challenging but don't require 'training' i.e doesn't have bullet storms, one shot attacks and tight enrage timers that trigger the meter monkeys. The goal is not tuned raids (we have existing raids for that) , the goal is pleasurable relaxed 10 man instances that gives an opportunity for all to play their favourite character and build in larger more complicated fights with all the dynamics that fighting with 10 people brings. From what we can see in this thread, there are no negatives for this, i.e here are the 'objections' raised: > > - Demand: evidently there is demand for easy and hard mode. > - Cost to implement: It only took a small team to build the entire raid structure in GW", so taking a few extra developers from the existing 400 or so developer pot is not inconceivable. Whatsmore, tuning down is obviously cheaper since undertuning and overturning is less risky as you are not balancing to enrage timers. > - Rewards: well we can see legendary rewards from casual play in WVW already so there's no issue with this. Make sure skins are different from existing raids (especially) and we are golden. > - It will split the player base: No, it will only split the existing minority that plays raids - worse case scenario. > - People who are arguing against this for selfish reasons will be unhappy. Yes they will. > > and the benefits? > > - New content for everyone including existing raiders. > - A new stream of players for existing raids as they naturally migrate up from easy mode (plus they have learned a good part of the fights) This becomes your natural training ground. > - Possible new investment in additional raids for all at all difficulty levels. Raid reuse is also higher so current investment has better bang for buck. I see some things here that wouldn't be like you think. Easy modes would be played by most raiders only once or twice, maybe more, just for the memes and the speedruns. Easy mode Cairn solo (0:50s). Things like that. Then we would go back to normal raids, because easy mode is too easy so it is boring af for us. But yeah, at least it would be a huge source of raiding memes. Raiders wouldn't accept easy mode players in normal mode unless they have the same requirements as everyone else: regular boss KP/LI/whatever. If easy mode gave LI, then LIs wouldn't be asked for in LFG or the number of LIs required to join would increase a lot. If KPs were the same in all modes, then KPs wouldn't be asked for and the new requirements would be any raid legendary collection skin, probably alongside a lot of LI. Normal raiders would scrutinize players even more, because they wouldn't like any easy mode raider in their group -an easy mode raider that has never done the regular boss will not know nor be used to the regular mechanics, so only low requirements or training squads will accept them in a normal boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > Well clearly pve world bosses is a baseline difficulty of nobody getting kicked, so they could make raids that easy and then nobody would be removed from any group. That would actually solve all the problems. And what does a person misjudging their skill for content have to do with anything? > > > > > > > > > > > > Difficulty is not why there is no removal from groups in pve world bosses. > > > > > > You see no kicks because they are pointless, if let's say Tequatl was inside an instance (without changes in difficulty) you'd see loads of kicks from the squad there. For example every single dead person that refuses to use a waypoint. > > > > > > > > > > Yah but there really is no reason to kick because it's so easy, and even if you do you're not excluded from finishing the content. That's my point, make it as easy as world bosses and scrutinization pretty much drops to zero, I'm not saying it should be that easy but some difficulty options and features to find people would help. > > > > > > > > This wouldn't work either, I gave the example of Tequatl, if it was in an instance you'd see kicks there too (the dead that don't waypoint for example). > > > > At Shadow Behemoth you might kick those standing waiting for his head and not moving to attack the portals. > > > > In an instance you can always find reasons to kick slackers, in the open world, you you said it, even if you kick them they can stay with the squad and leech the rewards anyway. That's not possible inside an instance as kicking will exclude you from the rewards. > > > > > > > > Also, while world bosses in central tyria are really easy, bosses and events in the Heart of Thorns are not as much. > > > > Legendary Wyverns, the Chak Gerent, even some sides of the Octovine have a higher difficulty rating, and lots of ways to fail, which means lots of reasons to kick. > > > > > > > > Further, as you can see in this thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/37656/how-would-an-easy-mode-raid-work-vg/p1 even supporters of an easy mode do not want easy mode to be like a world boss at all. What happens then? We add two easy modes, one for the easy mode crowd, and one for the no-difficulty crowd? > > > > > > Yes but my only point was that lowering the difficulty of raid content lowers players scrutinization and lowers people's desire to kick players for any reason. This is the only issue im concerned with, not actually implementing an easy mode into raids, but lowering the amount of socializing, scrutinization of others as well as making it easier to setup a group. > > > > I agree with this, the issue is removing factors that make people feel they need to quit or worse kick others. That means fights that are challenging but don't require 'training' i.e doesn't have bullet storms, one shot attacks and tight enrage timers that trigger the meter monkeys. The goal is not tuned raids (we have existing raids for that) , the goal is pleasurable relaxed 10 man instances that gives an opportunity for all to play their favourite character and build in larger more complicated fights with all the dynamics that fighting with 10 people brings. From what we can see in this thread, there are no negatives for this, i.e here are the 'objections' raised: > > > > - Demand: evidently there is demand for easy and hard mode. > > - Cost to implement: It only took a small team to build the entire raid structure in GW", so taking a few extra developers from the existing 400 or so developer pot is not inconceivable. Whatsmore, tuning down is obviously cheaper since undertuning and overturning is less risky as you are not balancing to enrage timers. > > - Rewards: well we can see legendary rewards from casual play in WVW already so there's no issue with this. Make sure skins are different from existing raids (especially) and we are golden. > > - It will split the player base: No, it will only split the existing minority that plays raids - worse case scenario. > > - People who are arguing against this for selfish reasons will be unhappy. Yes they will. > > > > and the benefits? > > > > - New content for everyone including existing raiders. > > - A new stream of players for existing raids as they naturally migrate up from easy mode (plus they have learned a good part of the fights) This becomes your natural training ground. > > - Possible new investment in additional raids for all at all difficulty levels. Raid reuse is also higher so current investment has better bang for buck. > > I see some things here that wouldn't be like you think. > > Easy modes would be played by most raiders only once or twice, maybe more, just for the memes and the speedruns. Easy mode Cairn solo (0:50s). Things like that. Then we would go back to normal raids, because easy mode is too easy so it is boring af for us. But yeah, at least it would be a huge source of raiding memes. > > Raiders wouldn't accept easy mode players in normal mode unless they have the same requirements as everyone else: regular boss KP/LI/whatever. If easy mode gave LI, then LIs wouldn't be asked for in LFG or the number of LIs required to join would increase a lot. If KPs were the same in all modes, then KPs wouldn't be asked for and the new requirements would be any raid legendary collection skin, probably alongside a lot of LI. Normal raiders would scrutinize players even more, because they wouldn't like any easy mode raider in their group -an easy mode raider that has never done the regular boss will not know nor be used to the regular mechanics, so only low requirements or training squads will accept them in a normal boss. thats a whole lot of who shot john, If a raid is easy such that any pug can do it, then by definition it will be sympathetic to a wide range of build and profession combinations, just like existing world bosses. your categorisation of 'normal' raiders and 'easy mode' raiders and chat about li etc etc etc is your attempt to apply your own behaviour and generalisation of people that is the realm of existing raids. Think existing dungeons - you don't get this kind of attitude there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > Well clearly pve world bosses is a baseline difficulty of nobody getting kicked, so they could make raids that easy and then nobody would be removed from any group. That would actually solve all the problems. And what does a person misjudging their skill for content have to do with anything? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Difficulty is not why there is no removal from groups in pve world bosses. > > > > > > > You see no kicks because they are pointless, if let's say Tequatl was inside an instance (without changes in difficulty) you'd see loads of kicks from the squad there. For example every single dead person that refuses to use a waypoint. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yah but there really is no reason to kick because it's so easy, and even if you do you're not excluded from finishing the content. That's my point, make it as easy as world bosses and scrutinization pretty much drops to zero, I'm not saying it should be that easy but some difficulty options and features to find people would help. > > > > > > > > > > This wouldn't work either, I gave the example of Tequatl, if it was in an instance you'd see kicks there too (the dead that don't waypoint for example). > > > > > At Shadow Behemoth you might kick those standing waiting for his head and not moving to attack the portals. > > > > > In an instance you can always find reasons to kick slackers, in the open world, you you said it, even if you kick them they can stay with the squad and leech the rewards anyway. That's not possible inside an instance as kicking will exclude you from the rewards. > > > > > > > > > > Also, while world bosses in central tyria are really easy, bosses and events in the Heart of Thorns are not as much. > > > > > Legendary Wyverns, the Chak Gerent, even some sides of the Octovine have a higher difficulty rating, and lots of ways to fail, which means lots of reasons to kick. > > > > > > > > > > Further, as you can see in this thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/37656/how-would-an-easy-mode-raid-work-vg/p1 even supporters of an easy mode do not want easy mode to be like a world boss at all. What happens then? We add two easy modes, one for the easy mode crowd, and one for the no-difficulty crowd? > > > > > > > > Yes but my only point was that lowering the difficulty of raid content lowers players scrutinization and lowers people's desire to kick players for any reason. This is the only issue im concerned with, not actually implementing an easy mode into raids, but lowering the amount of socializing, scrutinization of others as well as making it easier to setup a group. > > > > > > I agree with this, the issue is removing factors that make people feel they need to quit or worse kick others. That means fights that are challenging but don't require 'training' i.e doesn't have bullet storms, one shot attacks and tight enrage timers that trigger the meter monkeys. The goal is not tuned raids (we have existing raids for that) , the goal is pleasurable relaxed 10 man instances that gives an opportunity for all to play their favourite character and build in larger more complicated fights with all the dynamics that fighting with 10 people brings. From what we can see in this thread, there are no negatives for this, i.e here are the 'objections' raised: > > > > > > - Demand: evidently there is demand for easy and hard mode. > > > - Cost to implement: It only took a small team to build the entire raid structure in GW", so taking a few extra developers from the existing 400 or so developer pot is not inconceivable. Whatsmore, tuning down is obviously cheaper since undertuning and overturning is less risky as you are not balancing to enrage timers. > > > - Rewards: well we can see legendary rewards from casual play in WVW already so there's no issue with this. Make sure skins are different from existing raids (especially) and we are golden. > > > - It will split the player base: No, it will only split the existing minority that plays raids - worse case scenario. > > > - People who are arguing against this for selfish reasons will be unhappy. Yes they will. > > > > > > and the benefits? > > > > > > - New content for everyone including existing raiders. > > > - A new stream of players for existing raids as they naturally migrate up from easy mode (plus they have learned a good part of the fights) This becomes your natural training ground. > > > - Possible new investment in additional raids for all at all difficulty levels. Raid reuse is also higher so current investment has better bang for buck. > > > > I see some things here that wouldn't be like you think. > > > > Easy modes would be played by most raiders only once or twice, maybe more, just for the memes and the speedruns. Easy mode Cairn solo (0:50s). Things like that. Then we would go back to normal raids, because easy mode is too easy so it is boring af for us. But yeah, at least it would be a huge source of raiding memes. > > > > Raiders wouldn't accept easy mode players in normal mode unless they have the same requirements as everyone else: regular boss KP/LI/whatever. If easy mode gave LI, then LIs wouldn't be asked for in LFG or the number of LIs required to join would increase a lot. If KPs were the same in all modes, then KPs wouldn't be asked for and the new requirements would be any raid legendary collection skin, probably alongside a lot of LI. Normal raiders would scrutinize players even more, because they wouldn't like any easy mode raider in their group -an easy mode raider that has never done the regular boss will not know nor be used to the regular mechanics, so only low requirements or training squads will accept them in a normal boss. > > thats a whole lot of who shot john, If a raid is easy such that any pug can do it, then by definition it will be sympathetic to a wide range of build and profession combinations, just like existing world bosses. your categorisation of 'normal' raiders and 'easy mode' raiders and chat about li etc etc etc is your attempt to apply your own behaviour and generalisation of people that is the realm of existing raids. Think existing dungeons - you don't get this kind of attitude there. No vesica, I'm telling you what will happen. I know how the raiding community is, I'm part of it. If there's already high requirements in almost all groups, what makes you think that an easy mode will make things better in normal mode raids? Yeah, sure in easy mode it will be easy to fill the group, but what makes you think that easy mode raiders will be welcome into normal mode raids without experience in them? I tell you: they won't be welcomed. They will be accepted only if they have experience in normal mode, unless it's a training group or one of those no LI/no KP squads. If anet does not implement some sort of different KPs for easy mode bosses, players will ask for a lot of KP to be more sure of having normal mode raiders in the squad (following something like "only normal mode raiders will have a lot of KP, since easy mode raiders are more casual"). If anet implements different KPs from the normal mode, then players will have to link normal mode KPs. If they give LI for easy mode, then normal mode squads will require a lot of LI (because only normal mode raiders will have a high number of LI). When I said that I was referring to this "a new stream of players for existing raids as they naturally migrate up from easy mode", so I don't see why you're saying anything about builds and professions; but anyway, now that you mention it, in normal mode raids easy mode builds won't get accepted and probably they won't work, either. Normal mode will still expect meta or close to it. If you don't believe me, it's okay. But this is the reality. Also, when I see dungeons I see things like "only zerker lv80". You can't really say that dungeons are inclusive. Even with my full ascended druid I wouldn't be accepted into some dungeon groups. Do you remember those times when dungeon LFG asked for lv80 zerker and more than a certain amount of AP? Because I do. pd. you don't know my behaviour in raids, and neither you know my lfg requirements or the people I accept in my squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > Also, when I see dungeons I see things like "only zerker lv80". You can't really say that dungeons are inclusive. Even with my full ascended druid I wouldn't be accepted into some dungeon groups. Do you remember those times when dungeon LFG asked for lv80 zerker and more than a certain amount of AP? Because I do. I also remember putting up an "all open" LFG, getting the party, doing the dungeon, and then seeing that the elitist group was still waiting for members. So, not really similar to raids nowadays, i'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > Well clearly pve world bosses is a baseline difficulty of nobody getting kicked, so they could make raids that easy and then nobody would be removed from any group. That would actually solve all the problems. And what does a person misjudging their skill for content have to do with anything? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Difficulty is not why there is no removal from groups in pve world bosses. > > > > > > > > You see no kicks because they are pointless, if let's say Tequatl was inside an instance (without changes in difficulty) you'd see loads of kicks from the squad there. For example every single dead person that refuses to use a waypoint. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yah but there really is no reason to kick because it's so easy, and even if you do you're not excluded from finishing the content. That's my point, make it as easy as world bosses and scrutinization pretty much drops to zero, I'm not saying it should be that easy but some difficulty options and features to find people would help. > > > > > > > > > > > > This wouldn't work either, I gave the example of Tequatl, if it was in an instance you'd see kicks there too (the dead that don't waypoint for example). > > > > > > At Shadow Behemoth you might kick those standing waiting for his head and not moving to attack the portals. > > > > > > In an instance you can always find reasons to kick slackers, in the open world, you you said it, even if you kick them they can stay with the squad and leech the rewards anyway. That's not possible inside an instance as kicking will exclude you from the rewards. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, while world bosses in central tyria are really easy, bosses and events in the Heart of Thorns are not as much. > > > > > > Legendary Wyverns, the Chak Gerent, even some sides of the Octovine have a higher difficulty rating, and lots of ways to fail, which means lots of reasons to kick. > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, as you can see in this thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/37656/how-would-an-easy-mode-raid-work-vg/p1 even supporters of an easy mode do not want easy mode to be like a world boss at all. What happens then? We add two easy modes, one for the easy mode crowd, and one for the no-difficulty crowd? > > > > > > > > > > Yes but my only point was that lowering the difficulty of raid content lowers players scrutinization and lowers people's desire to kick players for any reason. This is the only issue im concerned with, not actually implementing an easy mode into raids, but lowering the amount of socializing, scrutinization of others as well as making it easier to setup a group. > > > > > > > > I agree with this, the issue is removing factors that make people feel they need to quit or worse kick others. That means fights that are challenging but don't require 'training' i.e doesn't have bullet storms, one shot attacks and tight enrage timers that trigger the meter monkeys. The goal is not tuned raids (we have existing raids for that) , the goal is pleasurable relaxed 10 man instances that gives an opportunity for all to play their favourite character and build in larger more complicated fights with all the dynamics that fighting with 10 people brings. From what we can see in this thread, there are no negatives for this, i.e here are the 'objections' raised: > > > > > > > > - Demand: evidently there is demand for easy and hard mode. > > > > - Cost to implement: It only took a small team to build the entire raid structure in GW", so taking a few extra developers from the existing 400 or so developer pot is not inconceivable. Whatsmore, tuning down is obviously cheaper since undertuning and overturning is less risky as you are not balancing to enrage timers. > > > > - Rewards: well we can see legendary rewards from casual play in WVW already so there's no issue with this. Make sure skins are different from existing raids (especially) and we are golden. > > > > - It will split the player base: No, it will only split the existing minority that plays raids - worse case scenario. > > > > - People who are arguing against this for selfish reasons will be unhappy. Yes they will. > > > > > > > > and the benefits? > > > > > > > > - New content for everyone including existing raiders. > > > > - A new stream of players for existing raids as they naturally migrate up from easy mode (plus they have learned a good part of the fights) This becomes your natural training ground. > > > > - Possible new investment in additional raids for all at all difficulty levels. Raid reuse is also higher so current investment has better bang for buck. > > > > > > I see some things here that wouldn't be like you think. > > > > > > Easy modes would be played by most raiders only once or twice, maybe more, just for the memes and the speedruns. Easy mode Cairn solo (0:50s). Things like that. Then we would go back to normal raids, because easy mode is too easy so it is boring af for us. But yeah, at least it would be a huge source of raiding memes. > > > > > > Raiders wouldn't accept easy mode players in normal mode unless they have the same requirements as everyone else: regular boss KP/LI/whatever. If easy mode gave LI, then LIs wouldn't be asked for in LFG or the number of LIs required to join would increase a lot. If KPs were the same in all modes, then KPs wouldn't be asked for and the new requirements would be any raid legendary collection skin, probably alongside a lot of LI. Normal raiders would scrutinize players even more, because they wouldn't like any easy mode raider in their group -an easy mode raider that has never done the regular boss will not know nor be used to the regular mechanics, so only low requirements or training squads will accept them in a normal boss. > > > > thats a whole lot of who shot john, If a raid is easy such that any pug can do it, then by definition it will be sympathetic to a wide range of build and profession combinations, just like existing world bosses. your categorisation of 'normal' raiders and 'easy mode' raiders and chat about li etc etc etc is your attempt to apply your own behaviour and generalisation of people that is the realm of existing raids. Think existing dungeons - you don't get this kind of attitude there. > > No vesica, I'm telling you what will happen. I know how the raiding community is, I'm part of it. If there's already high requirements in almost all groups, what makes you think that an easy mode will make things better in normal mode raids? Yeah, sure in easy mode it will be easy to fill the group, but what makes you think that easy mode raiders will be welcome into normal mode raids without experience in them? > > I tell you: they won't be welcomed. They will be accepted only if they have experience in normal mode, unless it's a training group or one of those no LI/no KP squads. If anet does not implement some sort of different KPs for easy mode bosses, players will ask for a lot of KP to be more sure of having normal mode raiders in the squad (following something like "only normal mode raiders will have a lot of KP, since easy mode raiders are more casual"). If anet implements different KPs from the normal mode, then players will have to link normal mode KPs. If they give LI for easy mode, then normal mode squads will require a lot of LI (because only normal mode raiders will have a high number of LI). > > When I said that I was referring to this "a new stream of players for existing raids as they naturally migrate up from easy mode", so I don't see why you're saying anything about builds and professions; but anyway, now that you mention it, in normal mode raids easy mode builds won't get accepted and probably they won't work, either. Normal mode will still expect meta or close to it. > > If you don't believe me, it's okay. But this is the reality. > > Also, when I see dungeons I see things like "only zerker lv80". You can't really say that dungeons are inclusive. Even with my full ascended druid I wouldn't be accepted into some dungeon groups. Do you remember those times when dungeon LFG asked for lv80 zerker and more than a certain amount of AP? Because I do. > > pd. you don't know my behaviour in raids, and neither you know my lfg requirements or the people I accept in my squads. the easy mode is not targeting the existing raid community, its targeting the same player demographic that plays easy mode raids in the millions on other mmorpg. As i said, the meta chat and the rest doesn't happen in dungeons because its just not needed and tends to be existing raiders because they struggle to adapt beyond rote patterns they are used to. Same for fractals with non raiders (in the main) its more time effective NOT to try and apply filters because the group doesn't wipe because its tuned to not require it. If someone cannot adapt and still tried to apply filters like AP etc then supply and demand applies, people will go to groups that don't do this, because they know the instance is not tuned to need it. works happily in other games, I for example regularly raid casually in eso and its a blast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > Also, when I see dungeons I see things like "only zerker lv80". You can't really say that dungeons are inclusive. Even with my full ascended druid I wouldn't be accepted into some dungeon groups. Do you remember those times when dungeon LFG asked for lv80 zerker and more than a certain amount of AP? Because I do. > I also remember putting up an "all open" LFG, getting the party, doing the dungeon, and then seeing that the elitist group was still waiting for members. > > So, not really similar to raids nowadays, i'm afraid. > Yeah, and I also remember putting up a "Matthias DPS" LFG, getting the party, doing the raid and seeing the 250li squad wasn't full yet. Dungeons are more inclusive than raids, but they're not always inclusive. That was was I was trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now