Please Overhaul Raids.

[Teamkiller.4315]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > I didn't start this line of discussion, Feanor did when he implied that an easier to acquire Envoy skin would somehow be an affront to those who already had it, disregarding the fact that almost all things in life follow this same pattern of discounting over time. It's just a very silly thing to get worked up over and shouldn't really be used as a valid argument against opening up alternate paths to Envoy skins.

> >

> > I don't know if you've noticed but nearly _everyone_ has been saying that, even proponents of easy mode raids. At some point you have to look within yourself and think "maybe I'm the one who's actually wrong?"

>

> [Nope.](

)

 

_Oh_, so _before_ it was about how _many_ people would be happy with your suggestion (you know, "more people made happy with envoy armor"), but the moment that's inconvenient for your argument you throw it all out the window?

 

How many times have we caught you speaking out of both sides of your mouth now?

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"AIZECK.8279" said:

> Stop blocking the solo players from the raids anet is not nice for a stupid an ugly armor that all will trasmog in the end let the players enjoy the game.

 

Eh... Why would you want a stupid, ugly armor anyway...? Shouldnt you be glad Anet has this ugly looking armor locked behind raids? You know, for your own protection against such a hideous armor?

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> How many times have we caught you speaking out of both sides of your mouth now?

So often that I seriously wonder why these threads keep going and going and going. Not to mention that virtually everything has already been said x times.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> As for the addition of other PvE legendary armors, I *seriously* doubt we'll see that.

And now you see why people are so insistent about asking for Envoy armor specifically, and not for another legendary armor set.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > As for the addition of other PvE legendary armors, I *seriously* doubt we'll see that.

> And now you see why people are so insistent about asking for Envoy armor specifically, and not for another legendary armor set.

>

>

 

And that is much, MUCH more unlikely.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > I didn't start this line of discussion, Feanor did when he implied that an easier to acquire Envoy skin would somehow be an affront to those who already had it, disregarding the fact that almost all things in life follow this same pattern of discounting over time. It's just a very silly thing to get worked up over and shouldn't really be used as a valid argument against opening up alternate paths to Envoy skins.

> > >

> > > I don't know if you've noticed but nearly _everyone_ has been saying that, even proponents of easy mode raids. At some point you have to look within yourself and think "maybe I'm the one who's actually wrong?"

> >

> > [Nope.](

)

>

> _Oh_, so _before_ it was about how _many_ people would be happy with your suggestion (you know, "more people made happy with envoy armor"), but the moment that's inconvenient for your argument you throw it all out the window?

 

Nope, that's still what it's about.

 

> How many times have we caught you speaking out of both sides of your mouth now?

 

Still zero, but keep trying.

 

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"AIZECK.8279" said:

> > Stop blocking the solo players from the raids anet is not nice for a stupid an ugly armor that all will trasmog in the end let the players enjoy the game.

>

> Eh... Why would you want a stupid, ugly armor anyway...? Shouldnt you be glad Anet has this ugly looking armor locked behind raids? You know, for your own protection against such a hideous armor?

 

How about let us choose?

 

 

[Teamkiller.4315]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Nope, that's **still** what it's about.

 

Yeah looks like you didn't understand what that statement meant. Impressive considering it was just one sentence. But you're probably pretending.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Nope, that's **still** what it's about.

>

> Yeah looks like you didn't understand what that statement meant. Impressive considering it was just one sentence. But you're probably pretending.

 

Ok.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > The difference lies in how easy to play the content is, and how shallowly the skins are buried. At the moment there's only one armor set that can be really considered to be comparable with Envoy - it's the Glorious Hero set. And it's not legendary (though it really _should_ be).

>

> Important thing to note about the Glorious Hero skin is that you acquire it without paying the "usual" Legendary components, gifts and so on.

> You CAN upgrade it to Legendary though by paying those materials. I don't think a PVP-only reward should ever be Legendary tier, because stat swap isn't used in PVP. So requiring a fair amount of PVE to get the gifts to upgrade the skin with stat swap capabilities is only fair. Even the other PVP Legendary, the Ascension, requires a good deal of materials and other items not available in PVP (unless you use gold to buy them) so it's not a PVP-only reward. Personally I'd much prefer if they did the Ascension the same way as Glorious Hero, get the skin by playing only PVP and then upgrade it to Legendary status (with stat swap) using materials/gifts

 

What actually ends up happening is that while your spending time grinding ascended shards and tickets, your making a butt load of gold as well as materials from reward tracks. So by the time you grinder out the shards and tickets you simply buy whatever you need without ever really touching PVE.

 

That being said the amount time, you need to commit to completing the seasons for tickets and gathering shards is actually a very high time investment and shouldn’t be taken likely.

 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >So if there is no effort involved, it's functionally equivalent to instant gratification.

>

> That. . . makes zero sense. You do understand that "instant" is not a function of effort, right? It's like saying that "this food is so good, it's practically light speed!" or "that apple is so red, it's almost frozen!"

>

> >Change it to "easy gratification" if you like.

>

> Word choice matters. "Easy gratification" would be accurate, yes, that's exactly what we're asking for.

>

> >Nitpicking doesn't change the essence of the request, or its consequences. It. Cannot. Happen. Simple as that.

>

> Why not? It used to cost $60 to play the base Tryia game, and now it costs zero. Things change. It. Can. Happen. Simple as that.

>

 

Have you tried wvw to get legendary armor? It is what you're asking for. Easy to complete and just takes time.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"AIZECK.8279" said:

> > Stop blocking the solo players from the raids anet is not nice for a stupid an ugly armor that all will trasmog in the end let the players enjoy the game.

>

> Eh... Why would you want a stupid, ugly armor anyway...? Shouldnt you be glad Anet has this ugly looking armor locked behind raids? You know, for your own protection against such a hideous armor?

 

Is that like are these walls to keep something from getting in and from something trying to get out.

[Tyson.5160]

When was the last time there were bug fixes to the Envoy Armor anyhow?

 

I still see people from time to time out of combat and idle with pieces of the armor extended. I find the heavy Armor is a nasty culprit for this.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> When was the last time there were bug fixes to the Envoy Armor anyhow?

>

> I still see people from time to time out of combat and idle with pieces of the armor extended. I find the heavy Armor is a nasty culprit for this.

 

I don't recall ever hearing or reading of a bug fix for envoy

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> Have you tried wvw to get legendary armor? It is what you're asking for. Easy to complete and just takes time.

 

1. It's through WvW, which is not the game mode I want to play.

2. It has no Envoy skin, which means it offers nothing that I'm at all remotely even a little interested in getting.

 

 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > Have you tried wvw to get legendary armor? It is what you're asking for. Easy to complete and just takes time.

>

> 1. It's through WvW, which is not the game mode I want to play.

> 2. It has no Envoy skin, which means it offers nothing that I'm at all remotely even a little interested in getting.

>

>

 

So you want the raid skin with little challenge. What about legendary armor from open world with an everyday average skin but with stat swapping?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > Have you tried wvw to get legendary armor? It is what you're asking for. Easy to complete and just takes time.

> >

> > 1. It's through WvW, which is not the game mode I want to play.

> > 2. It has no Envoy skin, which means it offers nothing that I'm at all remotely even a little interested in getting.

> >

> >

>

> So you want the raid skin with little challenge. What about legendary armor from open world with an everyday average skin but with stat swapping?

 

Again, the stat swapping portion is entirely irrelevant. Do - not - care. I'm looking to get the skins.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > > Have you tried wvw to get legendary armor? It is what you're asking for. Easy to complete and just takes time.

> > >

> > > 1. It's through WvW, which is not the game mode I want to play.

> > > 2. It has no Envoy skin, which means it offers nothing that I'm at all remotely even a little interested in getting.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > So you want the raid skin with little challenge. What about legendary armor from open world with an everyday average skin but with stat swapping?

>

> Again, the stat swapping portion is entirely irrelevant. Do - not - care. I'm looking to get the skins.

 

That's a fantastic goal! I think you should seriously look at getting into a guild that does training runs! It is a LOT of fun! And the best part is, in training runs you have more flexibility with regards to ascended requirements or builds etc. You might really enjoy it! And look darn snazzy doing it ;)

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> That's a fantastic goal! I think you should seriously look at getting into a guild that does training runs! It is a LOT of fun!

 

No, you may enjoy training runs, and if so that's great, for you, but I know for a fact that I never will, it's just not for me, which is why I'm pushing for them to add easy mdoe raids, which I actually would enjoy playing. You do you, just never expect that to work for everyone else.

 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > That's a fantastic goal! I think you should seriously look at getting into a guild that does training runs! It is a LOT of fun!

>

> No, you may enjoy training runs, and if so that's great, for you, but I know for a fact that I never will, it's just not for me, which is why I'm pushing for them to add easy mdoe raids, which I actually would enjoy playing. You do you, just never expect that to work for everyone else.

>

 

Have you tried it? I'm curious what about normal raids you will never enjoy but an easy mode you would enjoy. Not trying to troll you, having a serious discussion. :)

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > That's a fantastic goal! I think you should seriously look at getting into a guild that does training runs! It is a LOT of fun!

> >

> > No, you may enjoy training runs, and if so that's great, for you, but I know for a fact that I never will, it's just not for me, which is why I'm pushing for them to add easy mdoe raids, which I actually would enjoy playing. You do you, just never expect that to work for everyone else.

> >

>

> Have you tried it? I'm curious what about normal raids you will never enjoy but an easy mode you would enjoy. Not trying to troll you, having a serious discussion. :)

 

Yes, I've tried it. The parts of training runs that I don't enjoy are the minutes, if not hours of pointlessly standing around while the group gets their ducks in a row, followed by attempting the encounter, and then failing it because one or more people made some simple mistakes, and then doing the whole mess over again, and again, and likely again, and maybe again, and maybe the encounter isn't even completed before the end of the night! I have no interest in that.

 

With easy mode, players would be able to expect dropping into an LFG (or starting one), having it be full and prepared to start withing a few minutes, going in, and either clearing the encounter or at least coming close and clearing it the next time. None of that "training" nonsense. I get that this wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, some people would find it "too easy," but it doesn't have to be, those players already have the normal mode, this doesn't have to be for them.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > That's a fantastic goal! I think you should seriously look at getting into a guild that does training runs! It is a LOT of fun!

> >

> > No, you may enjoy training runs, and if so that's great, for you, but I know for a fact that I never will, it's just not for me, which is why I'm pushing for them to add easy mdoe raids, which I actually would enjoy playing. You do you, just never expect that to work for everyone else.

> >

>

> Have you tried it? I'm curious what about normal raids you will never enjoy but an easy mode you would enjoy. Not trying to troll you, having a serious discussion. :)

The answer is obviously difficulty. Some people thrive on challenge, but others won't have fun when placed in a stressful environment. And challenge (assuming it's real, and not fake) does tend to generate stress.

 

In general, do not assume that the things you find fun will be fun to everyone else. That's a bad assumption to have (and not only because it's not true).

[Zalavaaris.5329]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > > That's a fantastic goal! I think you should seriously look at getting into a guild that does training runs! It is a LOT of fun!

> > >

> > > No, you may enjoy training runs, and if so that's great, for you, but I know for a fact that I never will, it's just not for me, which is why I'm pushing for them to add easy mdoe raids, which I actually would enjoy playing. You do you, just never expect that to work for everyone else.

> > >

> >

> > Have you tried it? I'm curious what about normal raids you will never enjoy but an easy mode you would enjoy. Not trying to troll you, having a serious discussion. :)

>

> Yes, I've tried it. The parts of training runs that I don't enjoy are the minutes, if not hours of pointlessly standing around while the group gets their ducks in a row, followed by attempting the encounter, and then failing it because one or more people made some simple mistakes, and then doing the whole mess over again, and again, and likely again, and maybe again, and maybe the encounter isn't even completed before the end of the night! I have no interest in that.

>

> With easy mode, players would be able to expect dropping into an LFG (or starting one), having it be full and prepared to start withing a few minutes, going in, and either clearing the encounter or at least coming close and clearing it the next time. None of that "training" nonsense. I get that this wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, some people would find it "too easy," but it doesn't have to be, those players already have the normal mode, this doesn't have to be for them.

 

It sounds like you've been in the wrong groups. Imagine being in a group where people come prepared and dont wipe on bosses! Would that be fun for you?

[Zalavaaris.5329]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > > That's a fantastic goal! I think you should seriously look at getting into a guild that does training runs! It is a LOT of fun!

> > >

> > > No, you may enjoy training runs, and if so that's great, for you, but I know for a fact that I never will, it's just not for me, which is why I'm pushing for them to add easy mdoe raids, which I actually would enjoy playing. You do you, just never expect that to work for everyone else.

> > >

> >

> > Have you tried it? I'm curious what about normal raids you will never enjoy but an easy mode you would enjoy. Not trying to troll you, having a serious discussion. :)

> The answer is obviously difficulty. Some people thrive on challenge, but others won't have fun when placed in a stressful environment. And challenge (assuming it's real, and not fake) does tend to generate stress.

>

> In general, do not assume that the things you find fun will be fun to everyone else. That's a bad assumption to have (and not only because it's not true).

 

That's a good thing to consider for sure. But I would put money on them not making envoy armor any easier to get (other than adding more chances at li per week through new raid wings). I would actually challenge you to find another game that gives the highest quality rewards in an easy mode. I happen to know the most popular mmo on the planet sure doesnt offer that either. But who knows! I think you have the ability to complete the armor in it's current fashion. It sounded like the person I was replying to has skills or else the easily missed mechanics they were mentioning wouldn't be easy for them. They may make a better raider than they realize.

 

Considering I do not believe they will introduce an easy way to get the hardest to obtain armor, I was simply trying to encourage because the raids in this game are really not difficult. Especially when compared to other games. Just being positive :)

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > > > That's a fantastic goal! I think you should seriously look at getting into a guild that does training runs! It is a LOT of fun!

> > > >

> > > > No, you may enjoy training runs, and if so that's great, for you, but I know for a fact that I never will, it's just not for me, which is why I'm pushing for them to add easy mdoe raids, which I actually would enjoy playing. You do you, just never expect that to work for everyone else.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Have you tried it? I'm curious what about normal raids you will never enjoy but an easy mode you would enjoy. Not trying to troll you, having a serious discussion. :)

> >

> > Yes, I've tried it. The parts of training runs that I don't enjoy are the minutes, if not hours of pointlessly standing around while the group gets their ducks in a row, followed by attempting the encounter, and then failing it because one or more people made some simple mistakes, and then doing the whole mess over again, and again, and likely again, and maybe again, and maybe the encounter isn't even completed before the end of the night! I have no interest in that.

> >

> > With easy mode, players would be able to expect dropping into an LFG (or starting one), having it be full and prepared to start withing a few minutes, going in, and either clearing the encounter or at least coming close and clearing it the next time. None of that "training" nonsense. I get that this wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, some people would find it "too easy," but it doesn't have to be, those players already have the normal mode, this doesn't have to be for them.

>

> It sounds like you've been in the wrong groups. Imagine being in a group where people come prepared and dont wipe on bosses! Would that be fun for you?

 

Maybe, the trick is that such groups can be hard to find without any preconditions. I don't want required Li or build or gearing, I don't want to have to show up at a specific time of day, I just want to be able to drop in whenever I'm playing and have it work out. I also don't want any sort of "special favor" that only applies to me, I want it to be something that *any* player could count on. And like Astral noted, having a good group certainly helps, but also I want to make sure I'm doing my part, so the stress of a potential mistake potentially leading to a wipe really causes me a lot of stress that reduces my enjoyment of the activity.

 

I prefer lower-stress actives, where I have the *chance* to "perform really well," but where if I *don't,* if I miss something I should have gotten, it's not the end of the attempt, I can just keep playing and hopefully do better the next time.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > > > > That's a fantastic goal! I think you should seriously look at getting into a guild that does training runs! It is a LOT of fun!

> > > > >

> > > > > No, you may enjoy training runs, and if so that's great, for you, but I know for a fact that I never will, it's just not for me, which is why I'm pushing for them to add easy mdoe raids, which I actually would enjoy playing. You do you, just never expect that to work for everyone else.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Have you tried it? I'm curious what about normal raids you will never enjoy but an easy mode you would enjoy. Not trying to troll you, having a serious discussion. :)

> > >

> > > Yes, I've tried it. The parts of training runs that I don't enjoy are the minutes, if not hours of pointlessly standing around while the group gets their ducks in a row, followed by attempting the encounter, and then failing it because one or more people made some simple mistakes, and then doing the whole mess over again, and again, and likely again, and maybe again, and maybe the encounter isn't even completed before the end of the night! I have no interest in that.

> > >

> > > With easy mode, players would be able to expect dropping into an LFG (or starting one), having it be full and prepared to start withing a few minutes, going in, and either clearing the encounter or at least coming close and clearing it the next time. None of that "training" nonsense. I get that this wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, some people would find it "too easy," but it doesn't have to be, those players already have the normal mode, this doesn't have to be for them.

> >

> > It sounds like you've been in the wrong groups. Imagine being in a group where people come prepared and dont wipe on bosses! Would that be fun for you?

>

> Maybe, the trick is that such groups can be hard to find without any preconditions. I don't want required Li or build or gearing, I don't want to have to show up at a specific time of day, I just want to be able to drop in whenever I'm playing and have it work out. I also don't want any sort of "special favor" that only applies to me, I want it to be something that *any* player could count on. And like Astral noted, having a good group certainly helps, but also I want to make sure I'm doing my part, so the stress of a potential mistake potentially leading to a wipe really causes me a lot of stress that reduces my enjoyment of the activity.

>

> I prefer lower-stress actives, where I have the *chance* to "perform really well," but where if I *don't,* if I miss something I should have gotten, it's not the end of the attempt, I can just keep playing and hopefully do better the next time.

 

While I dont believe you'll have the opportunity to get envoy armor in that environment, it cant hurt to keep asking for it. And if it doesnt work out the way you want I hope you can find some enjoyment without having the armor. There are a lot of great skins in the game. Best of luck to you friend! :)